Before the primarchs

[Kataklysm]

So just sitting at my wonderful overnight job, that i love so very much, thinking; "how did the emperor lead all of the 20 legions of space marines before he re-discovered the primarchs? I may be a dumb question but i cant get it out of my head. 20 legions worth of marines and human soldiers, 20 legions worth of fleets that would be astounding for even the emperor to pull off right? This all really spawned from some idle research that I was doing on the original "Dusk Raiders" and the only information that I could find was that before the finding their primarch that the emperor led them??? but how can he do this for them and 19 other legions at the same time? :confused: my head hurts.

regards,
-kataklysm

[zeronyne]

In the "Age of Darkness" Anthology, there is a story about the first meeting of Kharn and Angron. I haven't read it in a while, but I think there was a strong implication that the legions still had their military hierarchy but the individual personalities of each legion were not quite as heterogeneous.

[Kataklysm]

In the "Age of Darkness" Anthology, there is a story about the first meeting of Kharn and Angron. I haven't read it in a while, but I think there was a strong implication that the legions still had their military hierarchy but the individual personalities of each legion were not quite as heterogeneous.

So theoretically, if the legions were left sans primarch... the horus heresy wouldnt have happened.. and the imperium would still be in a golden age of enlightenment and prosperity still led by the emperor? My head still hurts.

[Wolfshade]

The 20 legions weren't as large as they became. They would have been made up of terran marines, there are references to these adn he conflicts between the old terran and new legion troops in a number of the books

[Necron2.0]

Before the Primarchs, there was ...

http://fc06.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2012/081/3/3/hqdefault_1__by_necron2_0-d4tkazu.jpg

[docbungle]

Before the Primarchs, there was ...

http://fc06.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2012/081/3/3/hqdefault_1__by_necron2_0-d4tkazu.jpg



Surely that particular Gentleman is the Emperor??

[herigonz]

So from what I understood, there was still enough gene seed material left over to start all 20 Space Marine chapters after the Primarchs were all whisked away by Chaos. Was this not the case?

But just curious, did the Space Marines from Earth that the Emperor used at first use his Gene Seed? Was there simply no Gene Seed at this point? I know that the Grey Knights are supposed to use the goodies from the Emperor itself but it just doesn't seem clear otherwise (or I haven't read the fluff behind it).

I guess it isn't necessary that they have traits to a specific Primarch and whatnot since all the other augmentations are just that, augmentations to their bodies.

[Necron2.0]

Surely that particular Gentleman is the Emperor??

No way. If Chuck Norris were the Emperor, there would be no Horus, no Primarchs, no Space Marines, no I-Guard, and no Ordo <Hereticus | Malleus | Xenos> - there'd only be ... Chuck Norris. Moreover there'd be no need for anything else, because there'd be no Orks, Eldar, Dark Eldar, Necrons, Tyranids, Tau, Chaos Legions nor Traitors. Even if there were a Horus, and Chuck Norris were to let Horus wound him, all the chaos gods would immediately heal the wound, for fear of Chuck Norris returning to the immaterium. All throughout the Imperium, were any trouble to arise, nobody would say, "The Emperor protects," or "Emperor save us!!" All you'd ever here is, "Oh, hi Chuck."

[Kataklysm]

so.. about the actual fluff.......?

[FTE-Charge!!!]

From the little bit we know its all standard legionary hierarchy.

[gwensdad]

Here's my .02 theory:

The Emperor could have led assaults on a few worlds at the start of the the crusade with 4-5 legions attacking one world. After the fighting he looks at how the legions did, picks which leaders did best overall and ends up appointing leaders for each legion until the Primarchs were found. Wouldn't have taken too long and if the leaders were killed it would be easy for legions to pick new leaders themselves.

Granted, it also sounds like at least the first 4 or 5 primarchs were found very early on and probably led multiple legions for at least a short while.

[ArchonPhelps]

I thought it said that once the Primarchs were being discovered that the new chapters marines were recruited from their respected home plants or systems

[bladeofdeath3]

What we do know is that the emperor commanded the techno-barbarians in conquering earth. He created the custodes to be his bodyguard. After Earth was conquered, he then allied with the mechanicum of mars and began the primarch project. Two products came from the primarch project, the primarchs and the space marines. After the primarchs are kidnapped by chaos, the emperor beings to mass produce the space marines. He then begins the great cursade. Remember, Space Marines are capable generals. He probably commanded a few legions, jumping between different parts of the crusade. The Emperor eventually found his lost sons and gave them command of a legion. Remember, some of the legions had names before meeting their primarch (Lunar Wolves -> Sons of Horus, Dusk Raiders -> Death Guard, ??? -> Emperor's Children (wasn't their original name).

[albertsevil]

Pretty much what bladeofdeath3 said.

My only other information is that the Legions were largely made up of Astartes from Terra and Luna and had very similar command structures and hierachy. However they did exhibit different tactics and tenancies hence their names and history (e.g. Dusk Raiders attacked at dusk, Thousand Sons suffered terminal mutations and dwindled to roughly 1000 in number, etc).

The demeanor, build and tactics of the pre-Primarch Legions was affected by their gene seed in the same way Astartes in 40k are supposed to be, but not to such a great extent. It wasn't until they met their Primarchs that the true 'specialties' of the particular gene seed were became apparent and were fully embraced (e.g. I remember reading somewhere that the Iron Hands had a fondness for technical gadgets (if not necessarily enhancements) before they met Ferrus).

The Legions also changed to take on the aspects and traditions of their Primarch's planets which would indicate that before the Primarchs the Legions had more homogonous Terran traditions and aspects.

Hope that helps.

Ryan

[Ch_DokWreckshop]

The first space marines were made from terran, and this legions were showing specific aspects (tendancies for close quarter, artistic sense.....). They were lead by officers who made their worth during the unifications wars until their primarch wer found. The primarch then started to "shape" the legion in his image (angron going on psychosurgery to turn his legion into blood-crazed gladiators.....)

[Colonel Bindoff]

The emperor is meant to have been the greatest warrior, general, psyker and probably pastry chef of all time. I don't think he created the primarchs because he couldn't lead 20 legions and the entire army. Rather, that he couldn't lead them all in the same place at the same time.

As the great crusade expanded outward, the emperor would have to restrict his physical presence to a sector or lead from Terra. So he created his sons to prosecute his wars where he could not. Twenty awesome generals to help, and take over once he decided that humanity should start using the webway and needed to get cracking on that.

So I don't think it's that the emperor couldn't control the legions in the early days, rather that it wasn't his plan to do so. After all, the legions all had their commanders and other ranks in place, and were fully functioning battle groups. They just lacked the brilliance and inspiration of their gene fathers to really fulfil their purpose.

[trjames]

The emperor is meant to have been the greatest warrior, general, psyker and probably pastry chef of all time. I don't think he created the primarchs because he couldn't lead 20 legions and the entire army. Rather, that he couldn't lead them all in the same place at the same time.

As the great crusade expanded outward, the emperor would have to restrict his physical presence to a sector or lead from Terra. So he created his sons to prosecute his wars where he could not. Twenty awesome generals to help, and take over once he decided that humanity should start using the webway and needed to get cracking on that.

So I don't think it's that the emperor couldn't control the legions in the early days, rather that it wasn't his plan to do so. After all, the legions all had their commanders and other ranks in place, and were fully functioning battle groups. They just lacked the brilliance and inspiration of their gene fathers to really fulfil their purpose.

And what's more the Primarchs had similar psychic abilities. Knowing what the other primarchs and the emperor were up to at any given time without the need for comm systems would be a tremendous tactical advantage.

[bladeofdeath3]

I doubt the primarchs had comparable psychic abilities compared to the emperor, maybe only Magnus and the Chaos-enhanced Horus during the Heresy. Even with Horus' enhanced powers, he was unable to defeat the emperor. While some would argue that Magnus was empowered by the gods, I don't think he had any dealings with them until meeting his mutation-strife legion on Terra and sacrificing one of his eyes to stop the mutations. The primarchs definitely had to communicate with each other. The only primarch I think that could psychically command his troops was magnus, given that most of his troops were led by psykers, making it easier to communicate with them.

[sway]

Don't know if its been said but if you look at the fluff the emperor had his own army, he didn't command the legions. The original space marines weren't as easily trained as the one's we know today, so basically you could explain it by saying the marines of the legions were undergoing intense training regimes and awaiting the days their primarches returned

The Emperor had the custodes, some of which he took as his bodyguards in the great crusade (Think of them as uber honour guard) and then he had a personal army of gold power armoured warriors. Then as the primarches were found they were given command of the legions which suited their personalities best

Also has anyone ever noticed a yin yang style set up to the legions? You got World Eaters for chaos, crazy blood crazed madmen then you got blood angels for the forces of good, blood crazed mad men, Iron hands to Iron Warriors, Luna Wolves to ultramarines, night lords to raven guard, etc but all the loyalist chapters seem to be a more level headed or "toned down" version of their "Evil" counter parts

[The AKH]

Vis-a-vis the "sides of the coin" approach to the First Founding Legions, the Imperial Fists are the counterpart to the Iron Warriors (as they both focus on siegecraft). The Iron Hands are actually more of a counterpart to the Salamanders.

If you've read The Outcast Dead, it alludes to the fact that the Emperor's Thunder Warriors all died near the end of the Unification campaign. Therefore the Space Marine Legions would have been his only troops for the Great Crusade.

It's highly likely that the Legions would have operated autonomously before they were reunified with their Primarchs - they were still fully functional military units, with command structures - but their effectiveness would have increased tenfold once they were being directed and led by their Primarch, rather than the Legion commanders.

[Jmaximum]

Twenty awesome generals to help.......

Would that the Emperor did not suffer from the same goodguy naivete that all other goodguys suffer: Angron? Oh, he's fine. He's a great guy! Dressed up as a clown for kid's bday party. He WILL never freak out and BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!!!!!!! Mortarion? He likes poisons, a lot, and is fascinated with death! He would NEVER want anything to do with Grandpa Nurgle....never! This is all a la the Sinistro complex. Just one of my pet peeves that the goodguys never realize that the other guy's name is itself am indicator of their destiny.