Use of Codices in developing tactics

[Hive777]

Hello:

New 'nids player here, and I have a 'new guy' question. I have the main rulebook and the codex for Tyranids, as both are required to play my bugs. I've read both pretty thoroughly and started to develop some lists and different formations. These are, of course, developed solely within what I know of the rules and what my models can do--so it's obviously a limited perspective.

My concern is that I can plan all I want within the information I have on my own forces, but I have only a small knowledge of what other armies can do (mostly gleaned from reading stuff online).

I'm wondering about the extent to which players prep their lists or develop tactics based on the knowledge of what the other armies can do, and what people do to get the information. For example, do players mostly gather information on the internet (at forums like this, for example)? Or is it best to start getting the codices for the armies you don't play? Or is the game vast enough where you really can't prepare that way, and you should just build the best list you can with what you've got?

I know there's not really a right or wrong answer for this, but I thought it would be a good topic for discussion.

[Bean]

I think the answer is, "a lot." The capabilities of enemy armies is a big part of what it takes to develop effective armies and strategies.

Of course, you can learn everything you need to learn just by reading the other codices, but a lot of people can find it difficult to abstract this information into useful strategies. Most people learn what they need to know, especially at the beginning, by just playing against their opponents--and this raises an important point.

While, at some point, you're going to want to know pretty much everything that every other army is capable of doing, for the most part what you actually need to know is what the armies your regular opponents usually play are capable of doing--learning your local metagame environment is going to be more important, at the beginning, than knowing every little detail about every other army.

So, definitely spend some time reading the codices of other armies. I understand not wanting to buy them all, but most game stores will let you sit and read them in the store. Your regular opponents may well let you borrow theirs to read through them. Aside from just reading codices, just pay attention--watch other people play their games, and pay attention to what their stuff does. When you pay other people, pay close attention to what their units are capable of doing.

And, yes--you can get worthwhile advice on the internet. Just...be careful. There's lots of bad advice on the internet. The best advice I can give you is to always do your own analysis. Don't believe that some unit or strategy is good or bad just because someone like me tells you that it is. I might be right (in particular, I'm usually right ;)) but you can't know whether I'm right without doing the analysis yourself--and once you've done the analysis yourself, you don't need my advice anymore.

[DarkLink]

'It is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you will not be imperiled in a hundred battles; if you do not know your enemies but do know yourself, you will win one and lose one; if you do not know your enemies nor yourself, you will be imperiled in every single battle."

[Chumbalaya]

'It is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you will not be imperiled in a hundred battles; if you do not know your enemies but do know yourself, you will win one and lose one; if you do not know your enemies nor yourself, you will be imperiled in every single battle."

Ooh snap, Sun Tzu right after a Bean post. Grab the popcorn, folks.

The best teacher is experience. Play lots of games, read codices, always look for ways to learn and improve.

[DarkLink]

Ooh snap, Sun Tzu right after a Bean post.

I'm pretty proud of myself;). It was just the perfect quote for the situation.

Edit: Besides, my personal experience has validated that quote for me. I'm a pretty good player if I do say so myself, but I don't get to play very often* or against armies I struggle against. So when I go to a tournament, I do really well until I run up against an army I'm not very familiar with. As a result, I tend to place pretty highly, but never win anything because there's always at least one of those "bad matchups" for me.

If I got to play a lot more, against a wider array of competitive armies, then I would be significantly better than I am now. I just don't know my opponents as well as I should if I wanted to win all my games.

[Hive777]

Well, at this point, I'm going to be limited to what I can glean online and what I learn from experience. Of the two, I honestly think experience is the better teacher, at least for me.

At this point, pretty much every army is unfamiliar to me beyond the basic mechanics and universal rules--it's always something new to cope with every time I look at a model I've never seen before. So, I'm improvising all the time and trying 'everything and the kitchen sink' to see what works.

But, in a way, that's the cool part. All of this is fresh and new and I really want to learn how it all works---first, because it is pretty cool. Secondly, so my bugs can take the field and grind everything in front of them into biomass. ;)

[Wildcard]

There are some general quidelines tho that could be used at the beginning of your new hobby: (keep in mind that i am not that familiar with Tyranid codex)

- Try to gear so that your enemy cant get armor saves:
Marines usually got 3+ save, meaning you need to have AP3 ranged weapons, or close combat weapons that ignore armor saves.
What type of save army has, there is one rather good rule of thumb: The more numerous foe (horde-type) the lesser its armor is (ofc there are special units, but this is kinda general lookout of the army theme)

- If you can't bypass enemy armorsave, go for the number of attacks.. get enough attacks through and wound with them, the enemy will eventually fail their saving throws.
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- Transports ara present alot on the field, usually their armor values are AV11 or AV12 (there are exeptions to this ofc), so to crack one open by shooting, usually weapon strenght of 6,7 or 8 should be "massed" to deal with the transports (note that on close combat heavy army, the armor value of the rear of the vehicles in question becomes really important - since thats the value you will be attacking in close combat. This value is usually 10, so a str of 5-6 will be enough
Ofcourse if you can mass higher strenght hits, its always easier to crack a vehicle open, but higher strenght usually means less shots / attacks, and they tend to cost more.
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It depends a lot of the enemy player what kind of list you should be considering:
- Your multi-wound models (like Warriors, am i right) are no use if enemy can instant death them with long range fire. In this case you are probably better using those points in taking more lesser units that if you get shot in the face by high strenght weapon you will only lose a cheap unit.
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However, there are few armies that have the "luxury" to be able to field only one unit type to counter every possible unit the enemy can throw at them. (Well geared Grey Knight Purifier or Paladin squads are like this) This means, that most of the time, the best solution is to have multiple different units on the list, that each can provide assistance to each other, and fill the role on the battlefield that the other units can't do (atleast not so effectively)

Note though, that it is recommended to take multiple (or atleast two) units that can do the same role (redundancy or something its called). This means, that if you lose your Anti-Tank unit, you still have some means to kill the tank. This also has major impact on the strategy the enemy is forced to take, but i'll give you some time to digest this post first, before returning with target priority harrashment via redundancy ;)

PS. Welcome to one of the best hobbies there are ;)

[Hive777]

From what I've seen and read, 'nids seem to rely on masses of firepower and CC attacks, and really can't rely on single models at all. The models seem a bit more specialized, so you really have to have redundancy--just to make sure that you have enough synapse to maintain control of the army, and to make sure that an opponent just can't get rid of your ability to act/react.

It's really taking a psychological adjustment on my part as well to play with these models. In most of the other strategy games I've played, you want to keep as many pieces on the board as you can; that is, you try to preserve your assets for the duration of the game.

In many ways, 'nids seem to run counter to that. They almost want to be sacrificed, in huge numbers, to tie up and whittle down the enemy. But, I guess that matches with their fluff; I'm thinking of the battle scenes in Warriors of Ultramar when the 'nids are attacking in huge waves with little to no regard for their losses, as long as they're making progress toward their goal.

[Sonikgav]

Id agree with your last statement however as a fellow Nid player id like to point out that although they don't mind casualties like most armies, don't throw away units in a blind charge. They can be one of the most tactically complex lists out there with Psychology, multiple deployment methods and great inter-unit synergy so don't dismiss them as nothing but a swarm rush. I saw a Nid Stealer list in action that had its opponent literally panicking about where units were going to pop up etc.

As for learning, choose the style you want to play with them and just go for it. Then while you're playing observe the game. Don't just say 'that just happened', think 'WHY did that just happen?'. Did you try to charge a unit of Devastators, straight up the middle with Warriors and watch them get shredded? Perhaps next time you could use them differently. Put them in a spore pod, or give them a Hormagaunt screen your opponent would have to risk ignoring etc.

Its all a learning game but apart from a few special rules and playstyles most armies have those similar aspects. Its combat units, its firebase units, transports and heavy tanks etc. Before you learn what all your opponents armies do its best to learn what yours does 'in the field' against these unit types and how to apply your force effectively.

[Kaiserdean]

The better players I run into seem to know an opponent's army as well as they do. Of course, experienced players will often fare better but there is never a disadvantage to knowing your enemy.