DE Questions

[doom-kitten]

So I'm trying to reinvigorate my interest in DE mostly because I'd hate to feel like I wasted the monies and am looking to increase my skill playing with them, please keep in mind I have played mechanized SoB for over 7 years and am not very concerned about the survival of the majority of my army. My personal favourite tactic is using my own troops as bait for my more powerful unit, and not to be forgotten LOS denial with rhinos and immolators. The DE are considerably faster then SoB (considerably might be to modest of a word), but so much more dependant upon a good plan and army construction, from the few games I've played I've come to learn a majority of my tricks no longer apply to this army and I have little idea the worth of each unit in the codex.

So far I'm confused on the effectiveness of Reavers, Scourges, and Mandrakes. None of these units do anything worth their points cost for me particularly the mandrakes they just keep failing me over and over again. Reavers are cool but I've never had them do much more then zoom around then die, the first game I played they made me giggle when they hit a Devastator squad with their blade thingies and carved six marines to chunks. After that they where treated to a very angry BA Librarian in Termie armour, I got him with a DL shot so I guess thats a plus, but anyways after that one event they've never done anything as awesome and I would like any advice on tactics for them cause I really do like the look of them.

As for Scourges, 22 points each? Really? Why? Whats so good about them, that they'd cost that much? I don't own any and have been resisting the urge to buy some with out first getting some info, so do have much else to say about them. Anywhos anyone who actually knows what their doing with this army have any advice? Try to go easy on me, complicated strategies bore me to death, so does mathhammer so please try to limit mathematics :D.

PS. The Archons court models, they worth using? Cause that snake guy is awesome an I want a couple and that concubine chickie I needs one as well, and probably another one for a Dark Elf army in WFB, maybe another for something I haven't yet planned yet.

[vharing]

Scourges are good because of the weapons they can pack. The heat lance and haywire blasters are amazing any tank weapons. The fact that both are assault means you have have a decent threat range with them. Even the scourges splinter carbine is slightly better in my opinion than the warriors splinter rifle. Three poisoned shots at 18" and assault to boot. You should be able to hit anything within 36" of wherever they were before.

As for reavers, they can take a heat lance and blaster. When you kill all the tanks on one side of the board, you can zip over to the other side and kill they ones over there. And you already used the bladevanes. I can only describe them as fun.

[Diagnosis Ninja]

Reavers can be dual purpose. Take some anti tank weapons, and pull them on the board from reserve. Their speed means that people will either focus on them or regret it. Don't bother with the Vane upgrades because they've always been pricey for what they do by my count. Give them a target, take it out, and then go barmy with the blade vanes.

Scourges can take decent weapons in decent quantities, and Deep Strike well by my count. It's a lot easier to place 5 Scourges with 2 Heat Lances than 3 bikes with one, or 6 with 2. If that isn't your style, then deploy them around your side of the board and use Haywire launchers. In this case, you should always be playing to shake or stun as many tanks as possible, rather than destroying one or two a turn. Haywires work well with this plan seen they can trigger glancing hits quickly, as well as having a chance to get more against things like Land Speeders.

In both cases, it's best to gear them up against tanks. Giving 5 scourges 2 Splinter cannons might seem interesting, but the rest of your infantry can already do that. Besides, there's nothing stopping an anti tank weapon from shooting at infantry if you need it. It might not be optimal, but it'll still take infantry out as good as anything else (and usually better, given the strength and AP).

As for the cost... Well, if you're going to take them make sure you don't splash too much on transport options. Raiders and Venoms only really need Flicker Fields, and if you're wanting them to Deep Strike en masse you'd be better off taking Duke Sliscus to discount it for them all. As for the rest of the transport upgrades, they don't really cut the bill by my count.

So yeah, if you can fit them in, they're worth it in my eyes. They give you a portion of anti tank capability which isn't dependant on a paper plane, so it's always worth a look.

[Mr. Furious]

Drop the Mandrakes. I never, and I mean never had them show up and justify their existence.

Add some Incubi to you list with a transport and watch the fun when they tear across the board killing every unit they get to or making it run. They are my MVP unit every game.

Against infantry Venoms with 2 splinter cannons and a load of warriors with splinter rifles can dish out between 17 and 22 poisoned shots per turn. Its tough for anyone to make all those saves when you're hitting on 3's and wounding on 4's.

I use Reavers as annoy/distract units. Most of my wounds are caused by bladevanes and cluster caltrops but the occasional blaster shot to an annoying tank or transport usually pays for the unit. Keep them on the move so they get the nice cover saves after they slice a unit on the way by.

I use Hellions once in awhile as well and against infantry they do very well. Splinter pods soften the unit and their assaults are pretty tough as well. Combat drugs ramp them up nicely.

On my Raiders I always buy flicker fields. I buy enhanced aether sales on at least my Incubi Raider. 24" + 2D6 is really nice for giving your opponent a bunch of Incubi in the grill on turn 2.

Envenomed blades on vehicles have done nicely for me as well. Its nice to see someone pick up a model or two because they rolled some 1's when they assaulted my vehicle and couldn't make the save.

Against tanks the best bet is lots of Ravagers with Lances and blast pistols/blasters in troop units where you can take them. Don't forget your Haywire grenades for the Wyches. They do a nice job on tanks as well.

If you're running Vect, consider the Dais of Destruction. A Raider with 3 Lances and armor 13 all around is pretty nice for 200 points. I rarely make a 2000 point list without Vect and his Dais and I'm rarely disappointed with the results. Since Vect, the Dais and the 9 person unit that he must deploy with add up to a huge chunk of points, using it in any game below 2k makes it a difficult investment to justify.

I have never tried Scourges but they are my next purchase. Too much mech spam out there so I want to try the Haywire Blasters to see how they work for me.

[thecactusman17]

I came to DE straight from Witch Hunters SoB and had a complete blast. In many ways, Dark Eldar play much like Sisters from that codex in the manner that you engage the enemy. Unlike that codex, you now have realistic options for assault.

Scourges are EXCELLENT fire support if you want something outside of a vehicle. A great way to run them is to give two of them Splinter Cannons, which allows them to sit mid-field on elevated terrain and just wreck any infantry or MCs foolish enough to show their heads. And of course, your opponent can't just shoot one missile and kill the unit. They can definitely earn their points back but they are fragile, so keep them tucked into cover whenever possible.

The Court of the Archon models are amazing, but the rules are terribad. You have to take one of each, which means that you can't just take a few medusae, and the Lhamean (the poison girl) only affects herself and your archon---which can pick up 2+ poison a whole lot cheaper from his wargear list, and cannot take better poison weapons anyway (like a Splinter Cannon). She makes an excellent HQ model though.

The Sslyth could be decent if you could take them without the rest of their squad holding them back.

[doom-kitten]

I came to DE straight from Witch Hunters SoB and had a complete blast. In many ways, Dark Eldar play much like Sisters from that codex in the manner that you engage the enemy. Unlike that codex, you now have realistic options for assault.

:D You did read the start of my post right? Not bugging just thought it was amusing and I disagree 100% the differences in playstyles is enormous. For one the SoB cannot scap up even a quarter of DE speed, SoB assualt is so limited, their shooting will effective isn't much different than marine (yes variable ap1 missile tank but still you can roll a 1).Another, is the sisters where noted for devatating close ranged fire power due to the old faith abilities granting rending (kinda) to pretty much anything that passes a Faith Test. Not only that but they had incredible staying power with a combination of Faith points, turning your 3+ into a 3++ is a nice way to tarpit and their HQ's where much nastier to face, Int 6 Jumppack Canoness with Str 5 power weapon and and a 2++ for the win. The Witch hunter girls where way better then the current 'codex' but I wouldn't put it in the same class of finesse as the DE, I had a much easier time with the SoB and it's still my primary army but I gotta give the DE credit, they are by far a more complex army.

I've already use venoms and Incubi and I love both, I don't field incubi in a larger unit size then 5, mostly because 10 eats things to quickly and end up getting ganked by shooting and I'd rather put them in a venom and take 2 squads and 2 venoms. :D

I can see the points about Scourges but still 22 points for a Kabalite with wings and some improved weaponry still seems kinda steep and I'm not huge on vehicle killing spam, mostly because everyone and their dog does this and it can get irratating. I'll probably buy some just to try and then I'll make up my mind. But anywho thanks for whats been said, I'd appreciate more though.

[Skari]

I thought that chiming in here might be a good idea.

I am a big believer in the power of the DE and I am glad that you are tryint to reinvigorate your passion for them. I think every unit has its uses and their effectiveness within the game is always relative... to everything. Therefore talking specifics is always hard to do when things can wildly change (metagame, opponent, terrain, mission, dicerolls, deployment) and this affects a units overall performance. There are a few key things that tie DE units together:
Movement.
They die.
They hit hard. (either moving over units, shooting or assaulting).

So, having those points in mind lets discuss the three units that you were asking about:

Mandrakes- Sadly they have been looked down upon buy the general 40k online community. Yes, they have their flaws. And No, I have not played with them other than a few times. These few times it was a mized bag but I always found that infiltrating them to a spot where a heamy could get to them form a raider turn 1 to deploy a WWP was a good way to use them. This gives them the initial pain token to receive their shooting attack and then the WWP allows them to be supported later in the game and not overwelmed. They can also be used in a pinch to tie up PW unit as they have an invul save. If I were to start using them again I would probably use 6-8 in a harassment role.

Scourge- Yes, they are expensive and I have not used them yet they are on my list of things to build and paint. Their main use comes from the concentration of weaponry... 5 have access to 2 special weapons, now, the Haywire blaster is quite nice and I have seen it in action, its a good tank supressor but more importantly it is cheap to equip and can also be used in an anti infantry role together with the other weapons in the unit. But they are not a unit to just be thrown away.

Reavers- I LOVE these guys. They have won me many a game, they are really, really fast and they drive opponents nuts. But.... they are fragile as hell and to use them you have to really consider placement and targets. I usually reserve them and then have them come on and boost over depleeted squads to wipe them out, then use their superb movement to contest late game. As for bladevanes a unit of 6 RJB does on average 12 hits. These are str 4 hits... its better than an entire marine unit rapid firing with their bolters! And for cheaper. But once again, their placement is key, they are very expensive and not meant to just be thrown away. I also equip mine with blasters to be able to support against very mech armies.

The only real thing that you can do is practice... and loose and practice and loose some more and then win, and win and win... take everything in and use it next game to your benefit.

Cheers!

[thecactusman17]

I have found that playing sisters helped me play and learn to see good options in the new DE codex.

As for Scourges, I suggested INFANTRY killing setups. In fact, scourges will often be a poor choice for dealing with vehicle spam. A better option for that might be Reaver jetbikes.

[DariusMacab]

I have found that playing sisters helped me play and learn to see good options in the new DE codex.

As for Scourges, I suggested INFANTRY killing setups. In fact, scourges will often be a poor choice for dealing with vehicle spam. A better option for that might be Reaver jetbikes.

Scourges don't have any good infantry killing setups that can't be outdone by a Venom full of warriors.

I consider scourges better than reavers at killing vehicles because they can take more anti vehicle weapons per model count and have acess to better weapons (dark lances and haywire blasters).

DM

[Primarch Scooter]

I use Reavers in my army and it took several games before I found a good use for them with the way I play. They are funny to use as anti-dred (as I fight dreds a lot) and I get a good laugh when they fly over units using hyper speed and end up killing most if not the entire squad.

[PhatCat]

Mandrakes are really weak unless you really build a list to maximize them (i.e., getting pain tokens ASAP and hiding in cover as shooting/pinning units). 6th might make them better, but I wouldn't bet on it.

Scourges are good, but don't think their maneuver makes up for their lack of toughness. Honestly, the best kit out is getting 2 more dark lances and parking them in cover. Haywire blasters stink (and GK and Necrons have both essentially removed glances from their repertoire) and Blasters/Heat Lances are not reliable enough to get that close to rapid fire range. Sit back and plink two more lance shots with them or don't bother with them. The shardcarbine/splinter cannon build sounds nice, but most of your troops can do anti-infantry for you, so it's usually redundant.

Reavers are your choice if you want up close heat lance/blaster fire because of their jet bike move. Get close, zap, move back into cover with skilled rider. They are better in assault, so they can survive if caught close to the enemy, but don't mistake them for GOOD assault units. Only charge weak units (Devastators, small Tac squads, etc.) and preferably if you have a Pain token. If you can, Bladevane them instead, and Bladevanes are also nice for deterring scouts/infiltrators.

Court of the Archon generally stinks. Don't waste your time.

[Skari]

Agreed with most things said. But i would differ on the court of the archon. The times i haved used one they have performed well.

[BS FADE]

Reavers are an incredible harassment unit for all the reasons people have mentioned. My only complaint is that Archons can’t take bikes anymore.

Scourges with heat lances and haywire will often enough surprise people. I’ll always have happy memories of my friend flipping out because he couldn’t understand why they could take heavy weapons if they are jump infantry and then immediately doing it again when the new book came out. I’m talking throwing chairs flipping out, it was hilarious.

Mandrakes are terrible. If they could take special weapons, started out with a token, could infiltrate with a character, could even do some of their cool old where not really here rules, or could just have something else they might be playable in my eyes. They do look like a awesome metal band though.

[helvexis]

yes i really miss archons not being able to take bikes though it would perhaps make more sense for succubus to have the option but either way i miss having it

scourge i find are good for haywires and glancing things just get behind a leman rus and watch your opponent cry positioning is key with them same as everything else in the dark eldar codex movement is going to be your most important phase most of the time!

reavers are great harassing units just make sure you dont get stuck near flamers ... and dont forget you can move them 6" in the assault phase if you didnt assault to hide back into cover and skilled rider means almost no one dies. nobody mentions it cause well they are squishy and expensive but they can be used to help in an assault they have 2 ccw ws 4 and t4 so tougher than most of your stuff and just as good as wyches in cc. AS A SUPPORT!!! never do it alone unless seriously outnumbering :)

i really want to like mandrakes but i just dont use them often enough to be able to comment

i dont like the court ... i love the models though. They really are great!

pretty much everything in the dark eldar codex can be used effectively its just having the units that support each other well ...

[DaveLL]

I've heard suggestions that mandrakes could be used in the rear, instead of truly infiltrating them, giving them a pain token, and having them hold an important area (though of course they can't hold an objective, just guard your rear). Stealth is pretty nice as a defensive property.
That said, I've never seen it done at all, just hypothesized. Given that it's the most useful thing I've seen suggested for them... eh.

[Colonel Kreitz]

I've heard suggestions that mandrakes could be used in the rear, instead of truly infiltrating them, giving them a pain token, and having them hold an important area (though of course they can't hold an objective, just guard your rear). Stealth is pretty nice as a defensive property.
That said, I've never seen it done at all, just hypothesized. Given that it's the most useful thing I've seen suggested for them... eh.

Interesting idea but ultimately, I agree... still eh.

At the end of the day, I think the problem for Mandrakes lies in the "getting the pain token" part of the plan. If they started with one, they'd be okay, but starting without one leaves them without a range attack and relatively easy to kill.

As for reavers - mine always under-perform, insofar as they rarely kill anything. On the bright side, they really kill anything because they're always in my opponent's face and he always has to deal with them. That distraction value alone can be a big benefit, especially when playing a fragile, fast army.

[joesavestheday]

The biggest problem with Mandrakes is the Elites slot they take up. But if you have room, 75pts isn't a lot of points at all, and you'll be hard pressed to find any other distraction unit that is as durable (inv. save, stealth) for the same points. Just say you're outflanking them at the start of the game. This will probably affect your opponent's deployment. Plus if you're running a Webway portal, you don't even have to outflank them if there isn't a juicy target for them.

I agree with what others have said about Reavers; keep them in reserve. They'll be much more useful later in the game.

My plan for Scourges is to try the haywire blaster / suppression route. But I agree, it sucks that more and more armies are able to ignore stunned results altogether. Anyway, all 3 have pretty awesome looking models!

[Levitas]

Have you found the 'Dark City' ? Might be worth searching the interweb-way... :cool:

The big key to winning with Dark Eldar is deployment, whether your going 2nd or 1st and what the scenario is. These are crucial to DE and the time where you will win or loose games regardless of what your running. Learning what and what not to reserve is also key. You need a plan, always, even if it falls apart a few turns in.

Ask the ranges of your opponents weapons if you dont know them, pay attention when you set up scenery, and get good at guessing distances.

As DE are not a forgiving army, you have to account for as much of the randomness as you can, and protect those fragile units with terrain, distnace and trickery. If a unit can be shot at then most times expect the worst. The key is to not get shot at by using terrain, speed and surprise. When you strike be sure you strike with surety.

But seek ye out the Dark City, if you have not done so already...

[Skari]

+1 To levitas comment.

[godsvendetta777]

well I actually disagree with a lot of people when it comes to mandrakes. The best way I have used mandrakes is in a WWP list. you annouce they will outflank and place them in reserves. when you move your haemonculus (which should be in a WWP list) into position, drop your WWP (try placing it into or near cover). roll in your mandrakes (if this takes a few turns get that haemi into cover) and move them into the nearest cover. move the heami into the squad. now you have a 3+ cover save, a pain token for FNP, a ranged attack that pins, and two extra wounds. I say two extra wounds because the haemi at this point is completely useless and actually hinders the squad (no fleet). so he can die and with "sharing the pain" the squad keeps that pain token (or if he separates from said squad they'll keep it too if you choose). the reason you say they outflank is because if the tish hits the fan, you can still get em into a reasonable position at least. a lot of people underestimate/ disregard them, but look at them like this. they start with strength 4. which they are the only ones who get this without rolling a particular combat drug, needing two pain tokens, or costing a small fortune. keep them ready to contest/ clear objectives and take all ten with the night fiend. 160 pts, not a bad investment in a wwp list. I've actually seen someone do the same trick with an archon with a wwp, shadowfield, PGL and an agoniser. a bit expensive for me but gives them a reliable power weapon, keeps fleet going and allows effective assaulting through cover.

I know it's a very specific scenario and they always have the same job which can get very uninteresting, but they do it right and well. so take it as you will but they're not a complete waste...

PS have multiple haemiportals so that you take minimal risk when in the phases you have to wait through for the mandrakes come out (when your opponent sees what your doing they will gun those heamis down)

[LexIcon]

Actually, that makes sense. Especially in a wych army, haywire grenading dreds isn't really reliable. But heat-lancing them in the rear (lol) is much more so.