Horus loyalist or traitor??????

[sicarius2424]

hey people just wanted to see what your thoughts are on Horus if you have read the horus heresy book series no imperial or chaos nonsense how do you feel about him from your pespective

[wittdooley]

Ugh...he's fairly obviously a traitor...as he turns against the Imperium and orchestrates the deaths of thousands of his former brothers.....

[Emperorsmercy]

yes, im afraid there isnt really any question, he's a baddun and no mistake.

[Lord Inquisitor]

I repeat what I said in your other thread and say that he is selfish and a traitor.

[RogueGarou]

I have to play Devil's Advocate for a moment. Yes, Horus cast aside his oaths of fealty and loyalty to his brothers, his father, his lord, and his empire. Yes, he committed many evil deeds. Yet those deeds are the same actions taken by the Imperium he betrayed. Horus was given a series of visions, purportedly of the past and future which led him to believe that the man he revered above all others, his father, had betrayed him and the very ideals Horus and the Emperor had fought, killed, and bled for over the course of countless hours and fields of battle.

He was given a partial view of a dystopian future so far removed from what he strived to build. A future wherein the Emperor was elevated to godhood. A future where he was not even remembered, not honored for his feats and sacrifices. A bleak parody of the golden age of enlightenment the Great Crusade was fought to attain. A future where humanity was crushed under the weight of a bureaucracy on an unimaginable scale. He was a warrior king fighting to elevate humanity to a pre-eminent position in the galaxy. Instead he was given a glimpse of a future where politicians with soft, ink-stained hands perpetrated the stagnation of a totalitarian religion held all of humanity under its thumb. The achievements of mankind are toppled down and there is little hope of ever attaining the level of technological progress they had fought to recover after the Dark Age of Technology. It is a future where unworthy men who had never stepped onto the field of honor presided over the deaths of billions without pause, without notice.

Horus acted as expected when given this imperfect intelligence. He railed against his father. He rebelled against this distorted vision of the glorious future of humanity. He was a warrior king, wise but a man of action first. He acted. Decisively. But ultimately impetuously and without gathering more information. His choler bested his logic and he acted impulsively. He never knew that he acted on data which was complete in its absence of certain facts. It was the future but only if he made the decision he was manipulated into making. Only if he acted as he did would all of this come to pass. Once he had learned this and made the decision to go to war with his father, battling his brothers was an easy choice. But even then, he did not want his brothers dead. Not at the beginning nor before the Heresy. That would come later. As with many evil deeds it began not with aspirations of great malice but with acts intended to be for the greatest good. As the old saying goes, the road home to hell is paved with good intentions.

In short, yeah, Horus was a traitor of the gravest order. All who gathered under his banner were traitors. After the lessons of the Heresy, the Imperium learned how to deal with traitors, heretics, xenos, and their ilk. They learned how to achieve the very thing Horus was working to avoid both before and after he first turned traitor.

[Schnitzel]

Its rather tragic if you think about it, the visions of the "future" Horus was shown to turn him are from the future he created. Had he never turned against his father, the future could have been a grand golden age of enlightenment.

[sangrail777]

Yeah really tragic.
Traitor in all the worst ways he coulda been.

[King Wibble]

He was a traitor, no doubt about it due to his betrayal. It is possible to argue that he was fighting for Imperial Truth of no gods, etc, however he worships the gods of chaos so therefore cannot be championing that.

[Shadow Queen]

heresy means freedom so with my $0.02 he wanted to break away.

[Kanaellars]

It was a very tragic fall.

Was he a traitor? Yes.

Was he decieved? Yes.

[Red 2]

He may have been deceived, but it was a deception that played to his vanity, not his desire to create a glorious future. The Emperor shunned the god-treatment, but Horus (and several other primarchs) wanted to make sure that their contributions were remembered. Horus was angry that he had to deal with bureaucrats and the less glorious side of conquering the galaxy. He couldn't relate to anybody not of the warrior culture. That vanity is what led him to make the choice he made. Let's also not forget that, though he was being deceived, he was also being warned by another primarch. His pride led him to ignore those warnings.

[person person]

I have to play Devil's Advocate for a moment. Yes, Horus cast aside his oaths of fealty and loyalty to his brothers, his father, his lord, and his empire. Yes, he committed many evil deeds. Yet those deeds are the same actions taken by the Imperium he betrayed. Horus was given a series of visions, purportedly of the past and future which led him to believe that the man he revered above all others, his father, had betrayed him and the very ideals Horus and the Emperor had fought, killed, and bled for over the course of countless hours and fields of battle.

He was given a partial view of a dystopian future so far removed from what he strived to build. A future wherein the Emperor was elevated to godhood. A future where he was not even remembered, not honored for his feats and sacrifices. A bleak parody of the golden age of enlightenment the Great Crusade was fought to attain. A future where humanity was crushed under the weight of a bureaucracy on an unimaginable scale. He was a warrior king fighting to elevate humanity to a pre-eminent position in the galaxy. Instead he was given a glimpse of a future where politicians with soft, ink-stained hands perpetrated the stagnation of a totalitarian religion held all of humanity under its thumb. The achievements of mankind are toppled down and there is little hope of ever attaining the level of technological progress they had fought to recover after the Dark Age of Technology. It is a future where unworthy men who had never stepped onto the field of honor presided over the deaths of billions without pause, without notice.

Horus acted as expected when given this imperfect intelligence. He railed against his father. He rebelled against this distorted vision of the glorious future of humanity. He was a warrior king, wise but a man of action first. He acted. Decisively. But ultimately impetuously and without gathering more information. His choler bested his logic and he acted impulsively. He never knew that he acted on data which was complete in its absence of certain facts. It was the future but only if he made the decision he was manipulated into making. Only if he acted as he did would all of this come to pass. Once he had learned this and made the decision to go to war with his father, battling his brothers was an easy choice. But even then, he did not want his brothers dead. Not at the beginning nor before the Heresy. That would come later. As with many evil deeds it began not with aspirations of great malice but with acts intended to be for the greatest good. As the old saying goes, the road home to hell is paved with good intentions.

In short, yeah, Horus was a traitor of the gravest order. All who gathered under his banner were traitors. After the lessons of the Heresy, the Imperium learned how to deal with traitors, heretics, xenos, and their ilk. They learned how to achieve the very thing Horus was working to avoid both before and after he first turned traitor.

Couldn't of said it better. You write for a living?

[BrotherAlpharius]

He was a traitor but I think that being wounded by the anatheme and subjected to the visions in the lodge distorted his perception and judgement.

Also, we get glimpses in Legion and Visions of Heresy of the Emperor's ruthless nature. I know I'm not alone in suspecting that the whole Imperial Truth was actually a way of clearing the decks for the arrival of the Emperor's own cult to be introduced later so there is some validity in an argument that the Emperor was betraying Horus as much as Horus betrayed him.

Finally, it could be that Horus was actually the Emperor's fall guy. Given the age of the Emperor and the scale of his ambition it appears that he was the ulitmate pragmatist. He may have shed a tear over the fall of his favoured son but ultimately everyone was expendable in his eyes. Civil war may have been inevitable - the Emperor built a highly militarised society dedicated to aggressive conquest and expansion. In addition he had quelled religious insurrection through Imperial Truth but in doing so he reduced himself to just a man, his rule was not sacrosanct. Garviel Loken wondered what would happen when the Crusade was complete. What future would there be for the legions of men who knew nothing except how to wage war? Perhaps the Emperor worried about that too. His vast empire may have been doomed to fall in upon itself in civil war. Throughout history both ancient (Rome - suspension of the Senate and appointment of the Emperor) and modern (detention without trial and legislation such as the Patriot Act and its equivalents in various countries) leaders and governments have used the threat of external aggression, espionage, terrorism or insurrection to expand their powers.

If the Emperor did nothing, then he did not know who would betray him. If he engineered the downfall of his most exalted servant then nobody would be above suspicion and he could create institutions such as the Inquisition and Officio Assassinorum and be free to eliminate anyone he wished on the grounds that they were traitors. Of course if this was his plan he presumably hadn't counted on fully half of the legions joining the rebellion.

[RogueGarou]

I wish I did. I have no idea where to get my foot in the door with a publisher. I've heard that a lot of them have started to cut back on unsolicited submissions over the past few years. I have been published, many years ago, and produced for radio and television but again that was ten years ago. For now, I write bits and pieces here and there which shows up on the web and among a group of folks who will read it. Until, if ever, I can make a living crafting words, I am just a IT guy doing work for peoples networks and such. Thanks for the kind comment, though.

[Lord Anubis]

I wish I did. I have no idea where to get my foot in the door with a publisher.

Same way as always, really. Write something really good. Send it to someone who'd want it. Repeat.

It's a bit more tedious these days, because the internet has unbalanced submissions a bit, but if you've got good stuff and you keep at it, you'll find a home for it. :)

[ratpack]

Magnus warned him that the visions he has seen was one of the many possibilities. He had to choose between betraying the emperor and his brothers; and his own death. He choose to burn the galaxy.

[DuskRaider]

Well let's not forget, Horus was turned traitor by the Chaos gods. He didn't have much say in all that had happened, after his wounding by the anathame, he went on a "vision quest" with the "help" of Erebus, which in turn had caused Horus to become possessed. He had as much control over his actions as Fulgrim did after he came into possession of the anathame.

In the end, when the Emperor was able to cast the Daemons out of Horus, you saw him for who he truly was... A loyal son whom was turned against his will, but still had enough responsibility to call for his father to end him before worse could be done.

Was Horus a traitor? Horus himself wasn't. Horus possessed by the Chaos gods? Yes, very much so.

[imperialsavant]

hey people just wanted to see what your thoughts are on Horus if you have read the horus heresy book series no imperial or chaos nonsense how do you feel about him from your pespective

:rolleyes: Actually I feel sorry for Horus.
It was Eidolon or Erebus who orchestrated his fall into Chaos after he was wounded. After he was cured in the Temple he really had no say in his fate.:p

[Grotzooka]

Fulgrim was actively being mentally assailed by a daemon which he carried around with him for years before falling to it. Horus was stuck in a tomb for seven days and was shown lies and distorted visions while daemons clouded his mind, but his defection was mostly his own choice. I feel infinitely more sorry for Fulgrim. Horus was an arrogant turd who hated civilians, and certainly a traitor.
But, really, all that I know is that Erebus should burn in hell for eternity.

[sicarius2424]

you guys are awsome that posted thanks you had some good insight but you all had valid points i feel srry for horus that he was tricked but he choose his destiny and in doing so damned or maybe even saved the galaxy... but we will never know hopefully:(:confused:

[rkiviman]

The whole betrayal swings around Chaos forces manipulating the arrogance and pride of the Primarch's. Horus felt betrayed by the Emperor because he was returning to Terra and turning over administration of the Legion's conquests to " humans" and not to the Primarchs. Furthermore, Horus felt that the space marine legions were going become "policemen" instead of remaining the god-like warriors they are!?? This was the beginning of the rift between Horus and the Emperor. Even though he was Warmaster he felt deserted by the Emperor.At that moment it became easier for Chaos to seduce him. It was this rift that Erebus used in Horus's dreams while recovering from his wound to turn him. Also, Davin was a Chaos controlled planet and Erebus's legion on the most part was already in Chaos's clutches. The rest of the Primarch's that came over to Chaos were each seduced through their simple desires weaknesses. They may have been super-human, but still contained all the human weaknesses(pride, arrogance, jealousy, ambition,etc...) These were all used masterfully to get them to follow Horus and the forces of Chaos. The legions followed their Primarch's willingly, but were also seduced through their own pride and ambitions. They resented that the Emperor had returned to Terra and turned administration over to regular humans and that the "Great Crusade" was coming to a close. They were ripe for the rebellion to come. Chaos (with Erebus's help) played on their discontent and the Heresy came to life. The Primarch's willingly followed their own desires and went with Horus into war against the Emperor and his forces.

[Shadow Queen]

After reading for a second time the second book, he seamed that the Imperial people would worship the Emperor as a god when Horus knew that he did not want to remembered as a god. And that there was no statue of himself or the other primarchs that he lured to his side.

[Duke]

“The safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts” C.S. Lewis

Horus walked this gentle slope, he started thinking that he was doing the right thing in the name of the Emperor. Eventually, before he knew it he was talking with Daemons... there were no milestones with the fall of Horus, he simply made one good intentioned step after another.

Duke