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View Full Version : Can Fluff and Competition co-exist



Exitus Acta Probat
09-18-2009, 08:27 PM
(Please read what follows this, but my next post actually clarifies the question a bit more, so read that TOO before posting...about 8 posts down.)


New thread, to get away from hi-jacking another one.

Though getting heated, some elements of play coming to a series of legitimate debate issues in the 'counts as' thread (with regards to Space Wolves).

The questions are,
Who is more vehement in their positions of right/wrong?


Are,Gamers who create/alter fluff doing so solely for game benefit
or
Do Players who adhere strictly to fluff and consider deviation detrimental or purely advantageous

and
Is either stance really innately better?

I really see both styles of fluff management as legitimate, and see the accusations of power-gaming vs accusations of preaching consistent, strong and powerful.
See if we can run this out without too much BLARGGGG! ranting (like I am guilty of, consistently).


I really and truly feel, that it is legitimate to alter/create fluff to fit your particular vision...and do not feel that this represents excessive competitive manipulation on my part.
I also feel that to refer to my play style as 'powergaming' is to restrict the accuser to a narrower than necessary play style.

Dia
09-18-2009, 08:35 PM
I'd say fun should be the driving force behind the hobby, not just winning; however, I'm reminded that fun is subjective and for some people that means it is winning.

So I just don't know anymore.

Edit: Realized I hadn't directly addressed the topic. Yes, I think they can, should, and do co-exist.

sicarius2424
09-18-2009, 08:42 PM
yeah they should coexists and both are right but if some one goes really over the top and says i have a horus becasue he came back to life because the warp willed it then they are taking it to far i think he should remain dead but yeah they should coexist

Chumbalaya
09-18-2009, 09:05 PM
Sure they can, that's why we got into the game in the first place. I love fluff and I love armies that reflect the fluff and end up playing very well. Eldar, Guard, and now SW fit that mold extremely well.

Wingates_Hellsing
09-20-2009, 12:10 AM
While these are all points that came up, and we gave our views on them, they are not what we were discussing. We were saying that altering the established, canon fluff past a certain point makes it non-cannon and therefore not fluffy. The rest was a great big blob of side-issues which we can argue about later, but the above is the central point that I and Vash were making, and I don't think you are seeing.

But since you have brought these up, let's take a quick look...

Gamers who alter the fluff simply to justify a switch to a more powerful codex are powergamers. We never said that altering the fluff and powergaming are mutually exclusive, just that some people feel the need to break the fluff as a justification (a needless one) for their powergaming.

We don't demand that people never create fluff, we simply appreciate it when that fluff works within the canon. This means that the fluff they create compliments and works with the established background instead of outright contradicting it. We respect your right to break the fluff, but think that if you do you should admit that you have and either change your fluff or leave it non-canon and be happy that way.

Obviously, powergaming is not innately 'better' than fungaming nor is canon fluff 'better' than non-canon fluff. It's up to each of us as an individual to choose what we value, I and Vash prefer fungaming and canon fluff while respecting your right to value the opposite.

Vash113
09-20-2009, 12:38 AM
While these are all points that came up, and we gave our views on them, they are not what we were discussing. We were saying that altering the established, canon fluff past a certain point makes it non-cannon and therefore not fluffy. The rest was a great big blob of side-issues which we can argue about later, but the above is the central point that I and Vash were making, and I don't think you are seeing.

Quoted for truth.

Sadly EAP it looks like the majority of the subjects in your post have nothing to do with what was actually discussed so far in the DW/SW thread and are judgemental inferences made on your part. Neither Wingates or I actually said anything of that nature. Before you get upset, perhaps you should make sure there's something to be upset about.

Emperorsmercy
09-20-2009, 01:23 AM
it is a fairly abstract post, to be fair...

However, on topic, fluff and gamers must go together for it to work, and I think it is fine to change/create fluff if it is justifiable.

jeffersonian000
09-20-2009, 02:18 AM
I concur that fluff should work within the frame work of the setting rather than outside or it or even against the setting. However, who is to judge how far away from canon one can go before fluff stops being fluffy?

I run primarily Grey Knights (which has nothing to do with the DW/SW discussion), and in my fluff, the Grand Master of my army is on a quest and has a mandate to call in Imperial forces that he may need to fulfill his quest. This allows me to frankly abuse the allying rules in both Hunter 'Dexes for building some (in my mind) creative lists using the models I have available.

Am I being fluffy? Yes. Am I within canon? Yes. Am I having fun? Absolutely!

Then there is my old 2nd edition Legion of the Damned army. I enjoy running them as vanilla marines for a "counts as" Deathwatch Kill Team and will occacionally ally in Grey Knights and/or Sisters of Battle, because I can. Sometimes, I like to stat them up using the Black Templars codex for a Crusader based assault army. Upon occassion, I enjoy stat'ing them up as Blood Angles and running them as a fast(ish) assault army. I have even toyed with the notion of stat'ing them up using the Chaos Space Marine codex and running them as an ancient Legion lost in the Warp.

Am I being fluff? No. Am I within canon? Not really. Am I having fun? Absolutely!

The heart of the issue is not whether everyone should either play Space Wolves as Space Wolves or Ultramarines as Ultramarines or Dark Angels as Dark Angels; it’s whether or not you can force me to play Space Wolves as Space Wolves or Ultramarines as Ultramarines or Dark Angels as Dark Angels. Simply put, no one can force me to use my models in any manner I choose not to. If I choose to build my Deathwing using the Space Wolves codex, good for me. I found a neat way to do something cool in a newer way. Excellent!

Am I being fluff? Yes. Am I within canon? Yes. Am I having fun? Absolutely!

SJ

Exitus Acta Probat
09-20-2009, 06:47 AM
Gamers who alter the fluff simply to justify a switch to a more powerful codex are powergamers. We never said that altering the fluff and powergaming are mutually exclusive, just that some people feel the need to break the fluff as a justification (a needless one) for their powergaming.

We don't demand that people never create fluff, we simply appreciate it when that fluff works within the canon. This means that the fluff they create compliments and works with the established background instead of outright contradicting it. We respect your right to break the fluff, but think that if you do you should admit that you have and either change your fluff or leave it non-canon and be happy that way.

Obviously, powergaming is not innately 'better' than fungaming nor is canon fluff 'better' than non-canon fluff. It's up to each of us as an individual to choose what we value, I and Vash prefer fungaming and canon fluff while respecting your right to value the opposite.

I guess then, I am asking if you feel that fluff manipulation is automatically anathema to non-powergaming?



Quoted for truth.

Sadly EAP it looks like the majority of the subjects in your post have nothing to do with what was actually discussed so far in the DW/SW thread and are judgemental inferences made on your part. .

actually, the whole point to this new thread.
there's baggage in the other one, and this lets us get away from that and see somehting...


there are design philosophies afoot...so to speak...that define us as players.
It is a social contract, when we get together to play.

I guess a cleaner question would have been (now that it has become more concrete in my mind)...

which contract is considered more important to the overall gaming experience, and why?
Fluff
or
Compeitition

It's a game, so competition must be there in some form. It's also a universe, rich and diverse. Is it worse for your opponent (in the long run/overall) to violate the background for play, or violate play for background?

Chumbalaya
09-20-2009, 09:12 AM
There really is no canon as far as I'm concerned. The fluff has changed so much over time that you can never keep it all straight.

I actually enjoy that. It gives people the freedom to do what they want with their army in their universe. There really isn't a "right" fluff, it's your fluff and you make it how you like.

The galaxy is a big place and stuff falls through the cracks in the Administratum all the time, so who's to say that what is true and what is false. Both can be true, both can be false. That's the grimdarkiest of all, that the reality you subscribe to may not even be the truth. And you can never really know.

Xas
09-20-2009, 01:52 PM
I think (non) powergaming and (non) fluff have nothing to do with each other. you can combine them as you please.

you can have fluffy no-powerbuilds (basically all those fluff bunnies who claim moral high ground when all they are is not creative enough to find a more powerfull build).

you can have unfluffy no-powerbuilds (really, the mighty malleus c, lord maccrage is leading that 750point joke of an army. unlike he is takeing a walk in his royal park with a few bodyguards and ba accident get jumped by some deamons this is sooo unfluff!)

then you can have all the abmillions of unfluffy powerbuilds.

and finally there are also fluffy powerbuilds (nidzilla for example although in E5 not so powerfull anymore is fully within fluff. everyone who dissagrees should think a few minutes about the fact, that tyranid fluff says they basically are to powergamers of 40k bagrounds real live. their forces are bred to crush the oposition and within the time of one battle they waves of creatures can adapt to the enemy and surroundings. mech-guard is nice as well with waves and waves of tanks.)




on the isuee of cannoniness I think you should make your own fluff but still package it in a way that fits with the core fluff we all know.

what do i mean by this? well for an example if I wanted to play a sons of horus modern army with horus himself leading them in m41 I wouldnt go out and tell "yeah guys, this is reborn horus because the emperor quite failed at killing him and he now has mystically recovered". this would contradict with many things we read. instead i'd tell that they are lead by a general named "horus" and noone knows of his origins. so my horus could be an ordinary warlord who just picked up the great name of legacy or a clone or a shapeshifter deamon or, or or

so finally all I wanted to say is that the fluff of 40k is so itnerwoven with mysteries that if you tell things the right way and spice it with rumors and stuff you can sell allmost everything and still fit in with the official fluff.

DarkLink
09-20-2009, 05:38 PM
Every person plays the hobby for their own reasons, and they have every right to do so. Fluff and powergaming are two seperate issues. In the forefront you have the rules of 40k, the ones you actually use to play. I think that you should use the rules however you like to maximize the fun of the game. Some people have the most fun when they are playing competitively. Others don't care about the challenge, and siimply want to see stuff blow up (or get cut to pieces), regardless of who's models they are.

The fluff exists (at least for me) as a third dimension to the game. You have the game sitting in front of you, then afterwards you use the fluff to add backstory and depth to the game. That's why I like 40k better than chess. Chess is a competitve, rules based strategy game, but has no fluff, no third dimension. Adding some wouldn't affect the game itself, just add to the overall experience.

All in all, there really aren't that many lists that can't be justified by the flexibility of the fluff. The only one I can think of off the top of my head would be a World Eaters army lead by Lash Princes.

On a side note, powergamers are often accused of playing exclusively to win. For some, this is probably true, but the majority of "powergamers" are really playing for the challenge. It isn't just about winning, it is about beating a skilled opponent. Not everybody plays for this reason, but simply accusing a powergamer about playing to win, without regards to how much fun they are having is to misunderstand why that person plays the game. I am mostly competitive. I play Grey Knights because they are challenging and match my playstyle. I play to compete, and have the most fun against skilled opponents and uphill battles. When I play competitively against other players who don't play to compete, I have less fun, so I need to play carefully in order to match my opponent to maximize the amount of fun we both have.


On another side note, when playing 2v2 games in one of my gaming groups, my Grey knights ALWAYS end up on the same side as our Daemons player. This started simply by chance (rolling for teams), but has come a bit of a tradition.

evilrat69
09-20-2009, 06:20 PM
woo first post. umm. I go with a more fluffy based idea for my Black Templars. most of the people in my gaming group also do. the few that go with powergaming uselly are the ones that dont get called to come and play. so i lean towards the idea of having fun. if that means your no where near the cannon oh well.

BuFFo
09-21-2009, 01:45 AM
Fluff and non Tournament Competition? Yeah.

Fluff and Tournament Competition? Nope.

Crae
09-21-2009, 04:10 AM
I am one of the "old" boys, that played when it was still a second edition game. Back then it was a "Hobby", meaning it had more to do with having fun, creating and making stuff within the boundaries of the universe. The fluff was a ragged mess of random texts that had no real start and no real end. The universe was sooooo freaking huge that even the developers and authors contradicted each other on a daily basis. Back then it was seen as a hobby game and every one agreed that was what it was. House rules and rules on the go was as much part of the game, as models and paint. It might just be that I am a bit nostalgic about getting old, but all the talk about canon, fluff and abiding by it seems to me to limit the hobby part of the game. I see more and more claims from people that they want this model or that codex or what ever handed to them. It has become more and more a game over the years and has become less and less of a hobby. I have always enjoyed the weird stuff that the old school GW staff came up with, but over the years it has become more and more of a competitive game and today it is somehow more the rule to stick to fluff, canon and not to divert to far from the path that has been staked out.
I read a discussion the other day on Warseer, about pintle mounts and if they where able to shoot in a 360 or 45 degree angel. The discussion sooo much hints at the way people see the game today. In my "old" mind it was such a irrelevant discussion, that would have just ended with either a dice roll or just....it looks like it,so it can. The whole rules lawyering and biggering about book x said this and book y said that and your sooo totally not right because rule x says that...is what it has come down to. I still view the game as a hobby and a story that I drive forward from the point that GW left it. Canon, fluff and rules are all good, as long as we can all get to one goal in the end...fun. My point in the end is, have fun. If your not having fun, then play with some one else. If your a rules lawyer,a powergamer,a fluff freak,a converter, a top painter or just a plain old geek...the point in the end is fun. So go find people to play with, that has the same mind set as you and if you don't think you have fun, maybe try something else out. Its not the game that is broke....its the people that play it :).

The only really positive development of the game is the huge potential it has gotten, to reach out to all sorts of players. The painting and modelling competitions. The tournaments and the whole geekish coming together to play with small toy soldiers, that has been more and more a accepted way to spend your spare time.

The funny part about the game is, that in the end, when we stand in front of some of the really great superb insanely well done, converted and painted, above our own mortal skills, but only semi fluffy models, that gaze at us from behind the glass, we all wish there where either rules for it or that we had come up with the idea in the first place.

I kind of think it is funny that people to a huge degree accept books, that are not as such official canon and figures, like the ones from forge world, to be as much a part of the game, but can't accept when it comes from outside sources. Somehow it has become a game where people think its only okay to use GW only products and/or GW approved material (even ones that totally contradict with their own stuff). It goes right down to using inferior glue and other crafting material...just because it says GW. Is the game a religion ruled by the Big black book, where fun is dictated within the norms of Rules as written and rules as intended?.....

Let me remind you of both then....the first and most important rule of them all....has both intend and rule....HAVE FUN!!!!

imperialsavant
09-21-2009, 05:40 AM
I am one of the "old" boys, that played when it was still a second edition game. Back then it was a "Hobby", meaning it had more to do with having fun, creating and making stuff within the boundaries of the universe. *SNIP*
The only really positive development of the game is the huge potential it has gotten, to reach out to all sorts of players. The painting and modelling competitions. The tournaments and the whole geekish coming together to play with small toy soldiers, that has been more and more a accepted way to spend your spare time.

The funny part about the game is, that in the end, when we stand in front of some of the really great superb insanely well done, converted and painted, above our own mortal skills, but only semi fluffy models, that gaze at us from behind the glass, we all wish there where either rules for it or that we had come up with.

*SNIP*
Let me remind you of both then....the first and most important rule of them all....has both intend and rule....HAVE FUN!!!!

:D Sound of two Power Fists "Clapping"!