The Imperium's Stance on Homosexuality?

[Malok1013]

I was wondering if anyone knew, or had any good ideas towards, the stance of the Imperium on homosexuality. Would the Ecclesiarchy preach against it, as some modern churches do, or simply ignore it or something? Also, what do you think the social view of it would be around the Imperium?

[Grenadier]

I'd imagine it's all speculation since its all in a fictional universe. Now, I've not read many of the novels but I seem to recall two thin references to homosexuality in two different books. In one a character was described as a fruit in passing by another character. And in another there seemed to be a somewhat more than professional relationship between an elderly commissar and a subordinate. The author did not overtly make clear they were gay but I got the insinuation from it.

As for how it is viewed in the Imperium I have a few thoughts:

I'd think the Imperial Guard probably has a "Don't Ask Don't Tell" policy. And no doubt any sexuality, straight or gay, is likely not tolerated within the Guard's ranks. I know that porn is considered contraband so it stands to reason the vast ranks of the Guard are also prohibited from sexual activity. That is not to say some nookie makings aren't going on behind the scenes.

As for outside the military I'd imagine homosexuality is tolerated or not tolerated to various degrees from world to world. And as the Ecclisiarchy has several "denominations" it also stands to reason they may well preach against it. But then again I don't understand the religion of the Imperium. What is its "creation story?" Is there an afterlife concept? If so then there would also be a list of sins. And homosexuality might find itself on such a list. Or not.

Socially I would imagine the majority of Imperial citizens just don't give a damn. The Imperium is too vast and life is disposable so I'd think most folks really don't care what other people choose to do. As long as it doesn't involve Chaos!

[Malok1013]

Do you remember which books those were? And you are probably right about it varying from world to world, just as it tends to vary place to place in the real world.

[gwensdad]

Well in the Cain books he makes reference to a homosexual relationship between the Sarge and a trooper in his veteran squad and his only stated problem is that it's between a trooper and a superior. No problem with them being gay, just that one outranks the other.

[Grenadier]

I'm very bad with titles and keeping them straight. I think the "fruit" reference was in a Last Chancer's story but I could be wrong.

The other reference I believe was in Redemption Corps. One of the main characters was a commissar and I recall a brief segment of the story in which he was meeting with a superior commissar. This man was essentially bed ridden and in need of constant care. He had a younger commissar attending to him and there was brief reference to them holding hands.

[Necron2.0]

In theory, the Imperium is purely atheistic (that is to say, they don't worship a god, rather they worship the Emperor - and the Emperor was an atheist), so they probably do not care in the least what someone's sexual preferences are, so long as they do not interfere with the affairs of the state and do not hamper conscription quotas. I think you'd be in far bigger trouble if you expressed sexual attraction to a Xenos of the opposite sex rather than a human of the same sex.

[Grenadier]

How can it be atheistic when it reveres the Emperor as a God? And has a religion about him that's similar to Catholicsm? The Imperium even has saints and is famous for having holy wars. Last time I checked atheists don't build giant religious statues or huge gothic cathedrals. If the Imperium is atheistic what are Space Marines for then? They're seen as almost godlike by average citizens. The Templars are going on an eternal holy crusade. And they're always harping about faith.

And if I was an Imperial citizen I'd be in big trouble. I'd be all over those cute Eldar chicks. And then there's those daemonettes with their...um...unique breastly arrangements.

[Necron2.0]

I did say "in theory." Technically, the Imperium is atheistic - the Emperor demanded it. In practice ... eh, maybe not so much. There is something akin to religion, but it's nothing like Catholicism with its overt deference to a creator being. I'd argue it's more like an extremely advanced form of hero worship. The Shaq protects.

[DarkLink]

Not all, but a lot of atheists do like to be massive dicks about it. But I don't think the Imperium would consider itself atheist. The Emperor didn't want to be worshiped, but they do it anyways now that he can't really say anything.

[Grenadier]

I'm sure the Golden Throne he had in mind was just meant to be a gold plated toilet in his quarters onboard his ship.

[eldargal]

I doubt they care much where someone inserts their phallus in their free time, they have far more pressing matters. Looking to history for example doesn't really help either, SoB are nuns, for example, but take no vow of chastity.

I vaguely recall something about the children of Guardsmen and Guardswomen being sent to special institutions, perhaps the Schola Progenium or something. I would be very surprised if they discouraged sex, and with commissars about one assumes it isn't too detrimental to morale.

[Fellend]

I don't think the Imperium has an official stance on it. It probably differs from world to world like everything else. Some like Ogryns, some think they are they are abominations. Some worlds sees same sex love as the purest form and others see it as a gateway to Chaos.
The Church is probably to busy trying to fix any kind of unity in their faith to bother about small details like sexuality. Especially with actual daemons knocking on your door

[Aradielangelfire]

I have to agree with the above posts in that:

A. Given the extreme cultural diversity seen on various worlds of the imperium, it probably varies from world to world

B. Regardless of any one person or culture's views on it, sexual orientation is just not that important compared with daemonic possession, xenos influence, or worse - xenos eating the entire world and everyone on it.

Good thing we don't have any serious problems in the real world today, keeps us free to make issues like homosexuality one of our most important voting points.............

[Malok1013]

All very good and thought provoking comments thusfar. Thank's for the input. The variance from world to world of the views makes perfect sense, along with having larger things to worry about than who someone is into.

[iheartgrimdark]

Millions of worlds, millions of cultures and millions of interpretations of the Imerial Truth. I'd imagine that the whole of the 40k universe reflects the broad spectrum of opinions that are held currently in our universe.

[Psychosplodge]

Doesn't the female inquisitor that makes a pass at Gaunt suggest he turns her down because he has an unprofessional interest in Brin Milo?

And I'm sure there's definitely a couple of references in the Cain series.

All of them I got the impression any issues were regarding propriety between the ranks rather than anything else, but there's "camp followers" mentioned in several books that include whores so sex itself isn't banned for the guard.

[Hive Mind]

There are lesbian remembrancers in A Thousand Sons, no-one seems to care.

Of course if you follow the logic we have bigger things than homosexuality (like, you know, things that actually matter) to worry about now and yet it's still somehow an issue for people who feel the need to tell others what they can and can't do with their genitals. On top of that, people in the 41st millenium appear to be even stupider than they are now so I think it's entirely possible that homosexuality is frowned on by most in the grim darkness of the far future.

[iheartgrimdark]

What Hive Mind said. Also, seeing as the Grim Dark Future of the 41st Millennium is a total amplification of the woes that we have in "RL", it's probable that there are thousands of homophobic planets. I known for a fact that the Imperium is at least xenophobic.

[Malok1013]

I known for a fact that the Imperium is at least xenophobic.
Kill the Xenos scum!

[Grenadier]

Well just think about it. The Imperium happily throws millions of lives away in fruitless battles. Entire planets can be wiped out all because one person decided to turn to Chaos. Life is cheap in the Imperium. And so with millions of humans dying on a near daily basis they have to replenish the ranks somehow. So maybe they don't mind their soldiers um..."nookin' it up" from time to time. They surely wouldn't mind, and possibly encourage sex in the ranks. In fact, my Imperial Guard army has a brothel which travels with them. In fact, I even have models for them!

[Malok1013]

Those models sound interesting. Do you have pictures of yours?

[Grenadier]

I've tried taking pictures of them but they always come out blurry and its hard to see detail. From what I understand you need to have some kind of special gizmo or setting with a camera in order to take good pics of models.

[eldargal]

That is actually a very simplistic interpretation of the 40k universe. It is a dystopian view of the future, not a twisted reflection of our own times. It is perhaps one of the reasons it is so popular. The

What Hive Mind said. Also, seeing as the Grim Dark Future of the 41st Millennium is a total amplification of the woes that we have in "RL", it's probable that there are thousands of homophobic planets. I known for a fact that the Imperium is at least xenophobic.

[Lucidum]

I actually brought up a similar discussion on the conclave boards regarding transgender characters. I figure that, as long as someone is performing their duties in the name of the imperium, gender and sexuality are unimportant. Look at Callidus Assassins for example, their job description practically demands that they change gender often using polymorphine to fulfill their missions. Plus, Space Marines take a great deal of background and inspiration from ancient roman and greek society... hint hint.

[Malok1013]

Makes sense about putting the job first, and as long as that gets done, who cares about the rest. Good point with the Callidus Assassins. But regarding the Space Marines, while they do take a great deal of inspiration from the Greeks and Romans, don't they have a vow of chastity or something? I have never heard of an Astartes having a sexual relationship with anything. More of them probably have the desire to shoot someone than have sex with them. Not harking on Astartes though, they are pretty cool guys.

[MaltonNecromancer]

Given that the Imperium is a combination of all the worst and most horrible aspects of human society, I would imagine homosexuality would be viewed much as it is in any fundamenalist theocracy - as an abomination. I mean, let's be real, any reason to hate is a good one as far as the Imperium is concerned. If we still have homophobia now, why would the Imperium be any different? It just wouldn't.

I imagine that for the vast majority of LGBT people, life would be very much like living in some of the African nations where homosexuality is punishable by death. If you're a gay man, you'll be living a life of self-hatred and fear. If you're a woman, it'll be the same, only with the added horror of the ever-present threat of "corrective rape".

Now, certain individuals will get away with it; the monied classes, Rogue Traders (who do whatever the hell they like anyway), etc... But for the vast majority of LGBT humanity, life will be that little bit shorter and more painful than the rest.

As far as gay marines, well - they have increased levels of testosterone, so an increased sex drive. Of course, they channel that through an ascetic regime into anger and hatred (just like in real-life, repressed sexuality is an excellent way to create someone very capable of hatred and viciousness). If we assume that the proportion of gay men in real-life applies to marines, you're looking at about 2.5% - 5% of the chapter being gay.

How would they view such brothers? Well, I imagine there would be some very strong "romantic friendships", as the Victorians used to call them. Two marines very much romantically in love but without any sexual acts going on. Because sexuality isn't about having sex. And anyway, how many war films have you seen where one soldier cradles his dying comrade in his arms? A really intense friendship and romantic love are no different at the end of the day. I imagine there would be a great many gay marines in truly loving relationships, without ever defining them as such.

The IG? Well, if you're on active service, I doubt you give too much of a frak. Your life expectancy can be measured in minutes, so you have more to worry about. I imagine it's like you'd expect - there'll be the occasional incident where some bullies frag a "queer" without any comeback, but for the most part they just get on and do their job.

The Sisters? Probably the same as the marines, but with slightly more religious mania about it. Watch Ken Russell's "The Devils". I reckon that's how it works in the Ecclesiarchy.


...

The interesting thing for me was that I have a gay dreadnought.

Now, I've posted him before. Storywise, I'd recently been watching a lot of Ian MacKellan, and so the Dreadnought had a story influenced by "Gods And Monsters"; originally Brother Amatis was gay, and fell deeply in love with another of his battle-brothers. The two fought bravely side-by-side through hundreds of crusades...until his partner was killed. Within the hour, Amatis had fallen to the Black Rage, and was consigned to a Dreadnought as the only way to contain hs fury. He carries the skull of his former lover in a gilded box, embellished with a seal of filial devotion swearing that when Amatis falls, he and his love will be together in death.

here's the detail shot of the box.

http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb183/MaltonNecromancer/Death%20Company/DSC00613.jpg

I got a lot of replies along the lines of "Gays? In my Marines?!! That's not right! That's not fluff! You can't have that!"

Frankly, it's my army, and yes I can. It's not the whole army; it's one Dreadnought, and if seeing your lover killed wouldn't send you into the arms of the Death Company, I don't know what would.

Honestly, there is a definite undercurrent of quiet homophobia within the community. People don't seem to mind it all that much in real-life (or if they do, they're quiet about it) but when it comes to their escape fantasy? Forget it. For some reason, it's easier to believe in Gork, Mork, Ork technology that runs on the power of wishing, psychic super soldiers, fully automatic hand-held rocket launchers, religious miracles being so commonplace they become an army's special power, daemons, interdimensional gateways, interstellar travel, psychic monstrosities that can consume whole worlds and exoskeletal baby-carriers, rather than the notion that two people of the same gender might meet and fall in love.

Despite the fact that last one happens all the time and the others never have.

[Mr. Furious]

Honestly, there is a definite undercurrent of quiet homophobia within the community. People don't seem to mind it all that much in real-life (or if they do, they're quiet about it) but when it comes to their escape fantasy? Forget it. For some reason, it's easier to believe in Gork, Mork, Ork technology that runs on the power of wishing, psychic super soldiers, fully automatic hand-held rocket launchers, religious miracles being so commonplace they become an army's special power, daemons, interdimensional gateways, interstellar travel, psychic monstrosities that can consume whole worlds and exoskeletal baby-carriers, rather than the notion that two people of the same gender might meet and fall in love.

Despite the fact that last one happens all the time and the others never have.

Well said.

And...Cool Dread.

[eldargal]

Much of the hommophobia in modern societies comes from our religions, and there is nothing that we know of in the Imperial Creed that sasy anything about hommosexuality. It would be mere speculation to assume they have the same obsessions over sexuality as we do. Some planets may, it is also a mistake to think of the Imperium as a monoculture.

[Hive Mind]

Homophobia stems from idiocy, not religion. It just so happens that idiocy and religion often go hand in hand and so it looks like homophobia is related to religion. I know many religious people who aren't homophobic and I know many non-religious people who are who happen to also be idiots.

If there are idiots in the 41st millenium (and there must be) there will be homophobia.

[eldargal]

Right, because the tale of Sodom and Gomorrah totally isn't a potential justification for anti-homsexual attitudes. Of course ifiocy comes into it, but you are deluded if you think religious tenets don't come into it.

[Hive Mind]

You misunderstand me. I'm saying that homophobes are idiots and that some of them use religion as a justification while some of them don't.

IMO, the underlying driver for homophobia is idiocy. That is why, in my experience, religious people who are not idiots won't be homophobic and why non-religious people who are homohobic will be idiots.

I make no claim that there is nothing that could be considered homophobic in any religious book.

[MaltonNecromancer]

It would be mere speculation to assume they have the same obsessions over sexuality as we do. Some planets may, it is also a mistake to think of the Imperium as a monoculture.

Really?

The whole 40K background is driven by evil-vs-evil. The Imperium is everything awful about us writ large in blazing letters a thousand miles high... but they're not as homophobic as our current society? Come on! What, they're fascist on literally everything except women's rights, gay pride and civil rights? I mean, I've actually got no problem with the Imperium being pure evil, as long as people accept that it is. They're not the heroes - they're just the humans.

Don't fall into the trap of protagonist-centred morality.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ProtagonistCenteredMorality

40K isn't real. It's a fictional construct, and no book (including the RPG's) has ever mentioned a stance on homosexuality because the writers have no interest in looking at it. Because 40K is about warfare, and the people who read the books are, by and large, white heterosexual males, and they want to read about how awesome they are. They can't do that if they're reading about some gay guy. Which means they get marginalised and written out, because that's another side of what homophobia really is: fear of the other making you pretend that stuff you don't like doesn't happen.

Basically, homophobia isn't just calling gays bad names; it's pretending they don't exist.

And that's just gay people. Don't even get me started on the problems of the paucity of ethnic paintjobs / ethnic facial sculpting on official GW models photos.

(On that note: so awesome - http://dragonforge.com/Painting%20service/for%20sale)/conversion_parts.htm

Back in-universe, my girlfriend posited an interestingly horrible notion. What if the Imperium had a "cure" for homosexuality? If you're gay, you're taken in by the Ecclesiarchy for repurposing and re-programming. You come out as a Servitor, all the impure, heretical sexuality purged away, now remade into a "productive" member of the Imperium, spending the rest of your life as a mindless drudge.

*Brrrr*

Horrible.

[Kawauso]

Since there is little evidence of modern issues of bigotry (i.e. racism; people in the Imperium seem to get along fine regardless of skin colour. also there are a number of non-heterosexual characters spinkled here and there in the books, Malton), I think that in general these issues are not something enforced or exacerbated by Imperial dogma or government.

I think between all of the external threats the Imperium needs humanity as united as possible, and so officially their stance on issues like race or sexuality, etc. is that it's fine as long as you're a law-abiding, Emperor-worshiping citizen (and even then, there are characters like Ciaphas Cain who take a rather...relaxed view of the Imperial Creed). All of the Imperium's energy for bigotry is expended outward in their literal xenophobia. Even when they're dealing with internal threats (heresy), it's anti-government or pro-Chaos stuff they're worried about...not who people are shacking up with.

Which, as has been pointed out, isn't to say that there wouldn't be homophobic or otherwise internally-bigoted individuals, organizations or regions in the Imperium. It sure as hell isn't a unified or wholly mono-cultural empire. But there doesn't seem to be any evidence to suggest that, as an organization, the Imperium is a homophobic institution. Whereas I've noticed a number of examples to the contrary in the Cain and Heresy series.

[MaltonNecromancer]

Since there is little evidence of modern issues of bigotry

Perhaps because then GW might get in trouble in real life? :rolleyes:

"Tabletop wargame promotes [insert prejudice of your choice here]! Warhammer 40,000 teaches young children to be [insert epithet here]!"

Nope, can't see GW wanting those headlines...

[Hive Mind]

I don't think it's even a case of not wanting to get into trouble. I think it's more that being overtly racist/sexist/homophobic means that minorities/women/LGBT types won't spend money on your product. Hence you get the odd bit of tokenism in an effort to be inclusive. Every pound is sacred.

There's also the fact that the day-to-day politics of the Imperium simply are not important to the way that GW frames the universe and then there's the relatively-blank-slate aspect of 40k. There's room to make your Marines (or whatever) raving homophobes if you want to; there's room to make homosexual Marines if you want to and there's room for everything in between.

[Kawauso]

How does it have anything to do with them getting in 'trouble'?

If anti-gay groups wanted they could easily get GW in 'trouble' for the homosexual/bisexual characters that have appeared in a number of books.

It doesn't come up often in the fluff for the reason Hive Mind mentioned; day-to-day politics, etc. are never the focus of 40k stories.

The Imperium is already a xenophobic, genocidal regime motivated by religious zealotry - and it even started out as the same except it was vehemently -anti-religious-, to the point of violence. I don't think there's any overall concern at GW that they might offend people by portraying the Imperium in a negative light. That sounds ridiculous.

[Grenadier]

I wouldn't say they'd get in "trouble" in the sense of lawsuits and the like.

But what with the cancerous and hypocritical nature of America's politically correct garbage you don't have to do anything to really get in trouble. The PC rules can be used as a bullying weapon. Any minority can use the PC nonsense to turn a mountain into a mole hill. Where there may not have been a spark they can set a thing ablaze. All it takes is one minority (take your pick of them) to find something about our game that offends them. And then they can hurl accusations and labels. How far this goes is entirely up to them of course.

Often this just requires accusations without any actual evidence.

Let's look to that article that Greek "journalist" wrote awhile back about our hobby. She essentially labeled all of us right wingers. She insinuated that there may be some **** element simply based on the colors of the Black Templars. If any of you folks read the article I'm sure you were rightly offended.

Now, luckily nobody really read her article beyond the narrow readership of that publication. But it could have easily garnered a lot of attention. There's plenty of things in our game that could be used against it by people with an agenda.

It's like when I was a kid. Some of the local bible thumpers took exception to a lot of the stuff we kids in the 80's enjoyed. For example: He Man was "devil worship." Why? Because the preachers didn't like the name: He Man and the Masters of the Universe. They insisted there was only one Master of the Universe. And so they preached against He Man in the churches. And consequently not many kids in my area had He Man Toys. They did the same thing with G.I. Joe, Transformers, and more. Dungeons and Dragons? Again the Satanism accusations.

Today it still happens with Harry Potter. I know a guy who's wife reads Harry Potter but they won't let the kids play with Yu-Gi-Oh cards. Because in their minds the cards espouse black magic!?!

This is how 40k can get in "trouble" I think. It's just a game. We all know it is. And most of us don't consider it to make some statement about our ideological and social values. But outsiders who do not participate in it don't know that. They just see something and some aspect of it bothers them. Then can hurl accusations and labels. And then the burden of proof is on all of us and the game. If some minority decided Warhammer 40,000 has somehow offended them they can turn around and use the PC rules and media to demonize the game and the players. Without actually needing to prove a thing since all you need today is the accusation.

So I'm a little concerned with how 40k "appears" to those who don't play it.


How does it have anything to do with them getting in 'trouble'?

If anti-gay groups wanted they could easily get GW in 'trouble' for the homosexual/bisexual characters that have appeared in a number of books.

It doesn't come up often in the fluff for the reason Hive Mind mentioned; day-to-day politics, etc. are never the focus of 40k stories.

The Imperium is already a xenophobic, genocidal regime motivated by religious zealotry - and it even started out as the same except it was vehemently -anti-religious-, to the point of violence. I don't think there's any overall concern at GW that they might offend people by portraying the Imperium in a negative light. That sounds ridiculous.

[Kawauso]

All it takes is one minority (take your pick of them) to find something about our game that offends them. And then they can hurl accusations and labels. How far this goes is entirely up to them of course.



Any religion in Western society:
Meet the Horus Heresy/Great Crusade-era Imperium of man which systemically dismantles and destroys (through violence) all religion(s), on the basis that superstitious belief in deities is detrimental to humanity.

Done.

I'm not sure where the topic got derailed onto this getting 'in trouble' argument, though. All I was saying is that there's no canonical evidence that the Imperium or its agents care about a person's sexual identity or orientation (that I know of), but there are a number of examples to the contrary (i.e. that they don't care) in at least 2 of the novel series.

[Hive Mind]

Often this just requires accusations without any actual evidence.

Like calling abortion the murder of children? But who would do such a thing?

[Grenadier]

For someone so intelligent that was pretty lame. That is not about evidence and accusations. That is about two opposing views having two different interpretations of the issue. If you side with life then killing a baby in the womb is the same thing as murder. And if you support abortion then killing the fetus in the womb is simply termination or other sanitized and neutral term. Your side doesn't consider it a life. My side does. Only your side gets to be the one to dictate what life is or isn't to everyone else. Either way, its an entirely separate issue from the one being discussed in this thread.

[eldargal]

There are, as has been mentioned, homosexual characters in some of the books and we have planets with all-female regiments and mixed gender regiments. I think it is less about what we could consider 'rights' and more about pragmatism, so long as you do your duty and follow the Imperial Creed the Imperium doesn't care who or what you insert or penis into. Given I still maintain that assuming the Imperium is obsessed with the same things we hare obsessed with is unfounded speculation.

[Psychosplodge]

Plus the entire first legion...

How did I forget them?

[Hive Mind]

For someone so intelligent that was pretty lame. That is not about evidence and accusations. That is about two opposing views having two different interpretations of the issue. If you side with life then killing a baby in the womb is the same thing as murder. And if you support abortion then killing the fetus in the womb is simply termination or other sanitized and neutral term. Your side doesn't consider it a life. My side does. Only your side gets to be the one to dictate what life is or isn't to everyone else. Either way, its an entirely separate issue from the one being discussed in this thread.

Yeah, my bad. I forgot that it's ok when you do it or someone you agree with does it.

[Thornblood]

Ok, so Black Library fluff first; the Gaunts Ghosts series has a whole caravan/train of followers on the starships and at the bases that they occupy. Including prostitutes as well as black-market dealers. Also Caffran and Tona Criid have a full commited cohabiting relationship and adopt a kid. So relationships/ starting families are in. In this case. Gaunt is pretty laid back and empathic and stands up for our contemporarty human rights alot in the 40k universe, and is probably a bit liberal compared to the rest of the Imperium. I would assume that Gaunt would turn a blind eye to any secret liasons, but would stamp down on any major consistent public displays of affection in any relationship (same sex or not). Hark on the other hand might be used as Gaunt's antagonist either way, just for good conflict. Same goes with several other characters, because basically fiction is about engineering entertaining conflict.

In the Ciaphas Cain series, two single sex Valhallan regiments are combined and after fighting each other, they get to the sexing each other. Including the officers. So sex is happening, and in this case its everywhere like its a new thing. I'd go with the 'dont ask questions' theme here.

I believe there are probably whole systems where the ancient greek view of homosexuality prevails, and other systems where homosexuals are exectued. The Imperiums a big place and enjoys extremes.

GW I think, as an organisation marketed towards highly insecure geeky teenagers (generally) have avoided homosexuality, because, to that market its not really winning any more fans. In honesty I don't think GW has a stance. Based on our own mythology, GW has an Arthurian fairy-story quality to it. Knights rescue damsels traditionally, and you often get a slightly homosexual relationship in emotion only in the shared quest between different knights. Thats not to say its not open for exploration, that's just the way our fantasy and mythological tradition has been set up.

Space Marines are not sexually active. In several places GW has shown that the testosterone has been stopped from sexual wants and put into rage, anger, hate and killing. Those guys are channelling scientifically repressed sexual frustration when they go to war. Its one of the reasons the aspirants are supposed to be pre-pubescent, or early puberty.

However, that dosn't stop them having an emotional relationship. Im sure the Minotaurs and Sons of Sparta, because of their theme are encouraged to relationships because it means they look out for each other on the battlefield. On the other hand, Doom Eagles and Mortifactors- who go to battle already prepared for death are probably discouraged from relationships because they are so death focussed. Iron Hands who aspire to machinery have probably eschewed many forms of emotional life. Ultramarines; the Ultra-soldiers, disciplined and the like, I would assume have everything hell-bent on being the most efficient logical soldiers (its the reckless passion for war that makes Sicarius so different), and that things that are no military or spiritual gain are put away.

N.B. Whilst homophobic religious fanatics are certainly prevalent in the world, Im pretty sure the story of Sodom and Gamorrogh (or however you spell it), and I havn't looked it up, isnt so much anti-gay as anti all sins happening in that place that caused God to look at it with disdain. So God sent angels to the town, to a Jewish guy there and he looked after them, until the townsfolk came knocking on the door and said they were going to rape the angel-visitors (not knowing they were angels), because of this sin (and I'm gonna probably go with the sin of raping everyone is the reason God had originally got pissed at them) God got really angry and destroyed the two towns/cities.

Anyway, I would happily preach the story as an anti-rape story to scare people from raping even if it was a fairy tale, but wouldnt use it as an anti-gay story, its just so happens that the terrible sin thing was homosexual in nature. Similarly Snow White isn't used as a story against apples, but one that includes the dangers of taking food from strangers.

But yes, this story is often used in an anti-homosexual way, and there are other things in the Bible that are against same-gender sexual practice. The big lynchpin in the argument in the UK seems to be that there is a celibate gay bishop in the Church of England. But I'd quite like to leave that discussion with those who are already discussiong it, and out of this forum (but maybe the Oubliette). Also, really dont want this to be taken as a personal attack, but just me providing a reasoned and civil response.

[Necron2.0]

Well just think about it. The Imperium happily throws millions of lives away in fruitless battles. Entire planets can be wiped out all because one person decided to turn to Chaos. Life is cheap in the Imperium. And so with millions of humans dying on a near daily basis they have to replenish the ranks somehow. So maybe they don't mind their soldiers um..."nookin' it up" from time to time. They surely wouldn't mind, and possibly encourage sex in the ranks. In fact, my Imperial Guard army has a brothel which travels with them. In fact, I even have models for them!

Regarding brothels, I posted the attached to my gallery awhile back. I've been using it as an objective marker.

As for the Imperium's take on homosexuality, in general I'd think so long as it doesn't interfere with conscription efforts (i.e. it doesn't cause a decrease in population) and so long as it doesn't sew descent or contempt within the ranks, the Imperium wouldn't have an official policy for or against it.

[Grenadier]

While its fun to speculate on all this theoretical "life in the Imperium" stuff I'm glad for one thing: its just a game.

Watching TV, going to a movie, talking to friends, whatever, all these political and social issues bombard me every day. Sometimes I just want to get into something that doesn't have a hidden message, doesn't serve to advance this or that side's agenda, and isn't some kind of social commentary. Sometimes I just want clean and easy fun. That's what 40k is for me.

[Necron2.0]

Also, really dont want this to be taken as a personal attack, but just me providing a reasoned and civil response.

Hey now!! Don't you go bucking the trend around here! ;)

[Grenadier]

How did you get that pic to come out so good? Unless it is of a large vehicle all my pics of minis come out horrible.

[Necron2.0]

How did you get that pic to come out so good? Unless it is of a large vehicle all my pics of minis come out horrible.

The short answer is I've studied photography. The long answer is I have a camera that allows me to adjust f-stop and shutter speed. I mounted the camera to a tripod and then set the camera timer so that I wasn't touching the camera at all when the shutter released. It still could have been better. I need better lighting equipment (better than desk lamps and lighting filters made from printer paper).

[Grenadier]

Well, now I know it isn't as simple as point and shoot. If ever I want nice pics of models I obviously need to learn a few things. Thanks for the answer.

[gendoikari87]

um..... dark eldar anyone? Slaneesh? as for the imperium, no idea.

[Grenadier]

I would imagine Dark Eldar society, in terms of sexuality, would be much like every single dark, sick, twisted, perverted fetish we can find on the internet being celebrated. In their society anything goes.

[Thornblood]

Except psykers. No psykers for DE.

[Necron2.0]

Right. So, no mind-screwing then. ;)

[Grenadier]

What about in Tau society? What with their caste system and all. Can you imagine the pick up lines used by amorous Tau? "Come on baby, you know its for the Greater Good."

[Vorlon]

In one of the first Ciaphas Cain novels (caves of ice i think) Cain mentions one of his female troopers (Magot I think"preferences run entirely in the opposite direction" Which granted Cain isnt the most by-the-book commissar but you'd think he would mention something if it was illegal.

[MaltonNecromancer]

I would imagine Dark Eldar society, in terms of sexuality, would be much like every single dark, sick, twisted, perverted fetish we can find on the internet being celebrated. In their society anything goes.

I imagine concepts like "sexuality" are literally irrelevant. When Haemonculi can alter your gender as easily as your clothes, why would it matter what you were doing with what, just so long as you're not the one suffering?

Horrible, horrible Tzimisce/Hellraiser shout-outs that they are.

Actually, Dark Eldar sexuality can probably best be summarised by this:

http://www.itusozluk.com/image/simon-adebisi_290051.jpg

Simon Adebisi. Most terrifying psychopath in a TV show ever, bar none. Bar absolutely none.

[Captain Khorne]

A billion solar systems each with dozens of planets- anything is possible, hell I bet there is a regiment of guardsmen who are 100% homosexual, just as there are probably entire worlds where homosexuality is required/abhorred- receiving the death penalty. We live on 1 planet now, with 6 billion people and we can't make our minds up!

[George Labour]

There have been more than enough imperial governors depicted in the various bits of fluff and lore that even on planets that veer to the fanatically insane side of morality that certain people are allowed to express their personal inclinations more freely than those of lower station. Also each planet is its own little reality, and many don't even know of the vastness of the galaxy beyond their own skies.

So it's much like everything else in the Imperium. On some planets it's not a matter people bother with. For planets that do it's the lower classes that are held accountable while those in power are given more leeway to ignore the rules so long as they're important enough that purging them would be inconvenient.

It seems some people are projecting their own agenda onto the matter rather than considering the fact that for a wargame universe the answer can really be that simple.

[ElectricPaladin]

Right, because the tale of Sodom and Gomorrah totally isn't a potential justification for anti-homsexual attitudes. Of course ifiocy comes into it, but you are deluded if you think religious tenets don't come into it.

Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed for inhospitable behavior, not homosexual behavior. It wasn't that they wanted to have sex with men, it was that they wanted to rape men who were guests in someone's home - when Lot offered the men of Sodom his daughters, it was supposed to be his one redeeming quality. Because apparently it's better to offer a ravening horde of rapists your own children rather than let them abuse a guest in your home. The same story is repeated elsewhere in the bible, but in that story the men want to rape a male guest's concubine.

Actually, a value of protecting and providing for guests is common in a lot of cultures in arid and inhospitable parts of the world.

That's not to say that the Hebrew Bible is particularly friendly to homosexuality, but you'd be better off pointing out the holiness codes in Leviticus than this story. That said, the thing about the holiness code - and the other legal parts of the bible - is that a lot of modern religions have precedent for changing and ignoring these sorts of things. Religion is neither an excuse nor a reason.

Anyway. /Religion Major Rant.

Oh, yeah, and also the story of Onan has nothing to do with masturbation.

* * *

So, what I originally wanted to post was that I want to know what's up with homosexuality in the non-human world of 40k.

* Eldar: I mean, they are elves :p. But seriously, the surviving Eldar probably put a lot of emphasis on breeding as often as they still can. I imagine that while consenting adult Eldar can do whatever they want, they're under a lot of cultural pressure to have kids anyway.
* Dark Eldar: I'm sure there's a lot of gay sex going on in Commorragh, but not a lot of homosexuality. Actual homosexuality usually involves at least a little falling in love with members of the same sex, and Dark Eldar don't love anybody.
* Tau: I imagine that the Tau have an extremely formal custom of marriage, creating family units as the basis of making babies and achieving "for the greater good." However, I also can't imagine them as homophobes. I bet that some Tau bonded by the Ta'lissera ritual engage in a little hanky panky on the side, deepening their bond. That said, I bet all Tau are expected to help produce more tiny Taulets. I also wonder if homosexuality among the Tau can cross the boundaries of caste - which straight relationships can't because of the Ethereals' breeding programs. So the boy Fire Warrior is married to a girl Fire Warrior, but is having a thing with the Earth Caste engineer who maintains his Crisis Suit? That's a neat possibility, actually...
* Necrons: Say what? Do they even have boys and girls anymore? Do they even have bits?
* Orks: You're kidding, right?
* Tyranids: You're definitely kidding.

* * *

Also, I really love the story behind that Dreadnought, and the model, too. Good going, man!

[Grenadier]

Yeah that is the interpretation of that particular story I got too. That the real sin was being inhospitable to guests. But I got the impression it was a commentary on generalized hospitality towards people. Of course the failing in the story is the implication you made that it is better to give them your own family than to let them harm a guest in your house. Although I doubt the Bible actually intended to advocate that notion. I really think the basic moral of the story is "treat strangers better than you'd treat your own." That is not to say it is ok or suggested you treat your own worse mind you.

[Thornblood]

I think your missing out the rape is bad part of the story. In fact, in this case rape is punishable by death from God. For trying to rape angels. Whilst a contemporary moral may be to do with hospitality I think the anti-rape message is pretty strong, as is the Love God first and above all else (including looking after angels when he sends them into your care) bit for those who want to keep the Judeo-Christian God in the story.

In the New Testament, In Hebrews it says "Do not forget to entertain strangers, for by so doing some people have entertained angels without knowing it." so yeah, there is certainly a hospitality message there.

So no raping. Especially angels: Nightwish (the band)- i'm looking at you.


We are waaaaay off topic.

[Grenadier]

The problem I have with the Bible is that the book is a collection of works from many different authors over a rather long period of time. And often it contains parts that are a retelling of something already told before in it. And of course there's the parts omitted from the the Bible by the church. Not to mention any parts yet to be discovered. It does have a value however. In particular historical accounts. And above all moral guidance.

But for that I think we only need the 10 Commandments. Only problem with them is they do not cover everything. We could make do with additional commandments.

For example:

"Thou shalt not rape another person."

And mom and dad are covered with the whole honor them bit. But what about kids? So how about having "honor thy children." After all a lot of kids are abused, neglected, molested, and more by terrible parents.

Wanna get this back on topic? Here you go:

Since the 10 Commandments are all about moral guidance and intended then to help you be a better person maybe we just need to add the 11th Commandment:

"Strive to be a good person, harm no other, and to each their own."

Right there you have all the commandments rolled into one. So when it comes to homosexuality in our world or the fictional world of the game there you have it. "To each their own."

From the views of most here it seems the consensus is nobody in the Imperium is bothered by homosexuality. It's a fictional universe. And in this instance it seems this is what players want for that fictional future: tolerance of homosexuality. We can have that in this real universe if we just strive to be good people who do not harm others and we let people be themselves...to each their own. If we can believe a future as brutal and warlike as the Imperium can tolerate homosexuality then surely our real present day world could do so too.

[Terence]

I think that we can count in the diversity opf the Imperium and Eclesiarchy. I wthink that Emire as such doeas not bother as long as thithes quota are met. I would see it from planetary culture perspective. There may be a palnetds were it is totaly accepted, the pklaned where it is prohibited as abhorent sin, and planets with anything in betwwen. And remember that aby sexuality is the powerplay of Slanesh ;)

[Necron2.0]

Ok, so ... based on this conversation, who here is planning put put together a "Village People" themed command squad? :)