Tyranids for Throne of Skulls- first tournament

[alshrive]

ok so recently after discussing with some mates and deciding on a new army we were all trying to come up with incentives to make sure we get things done. To that end i am making a blog of my progress with the army (alshrive.blogspot.com) but that is by the by. The objective for the end of this is for us to take our armies to the Throne of Skulls tournament. Now i am, by nature, a friendly player not competitive and so have never actually taken part in a tournament before. I was hoping anyone with any experience at tournaments/competitive play might be able to give me some decent feedback. so without any further ado, ladies and gentlemen, allow me to introduce my 1500 point list for Hive Fleet Jötnar.

HQ
Hive Tyrant
2 Pairs Scything Talons
Shreddershard Beetles (Thorax)
Toxic Miasma
Paroxysm
Leech Essence

Elite
2 Hive Guard

Doom Of Malan’tai
-Mycetic Spore

5 Ymgarl Genestealers

Troops
Tervigon
Scything Talons
Cluster Spines
Adrenal Glands
Toxin Sacs

3 Warriors
Devourer
Scything Talons

20 Termagants
Fleshborer

5 Ripper Swarms
Spine Fists

Fast Attack
3 Tyranid Shrikes
Scything Talons
Pair of Boneswords

15 Gargoyles
Fleshborer

Heavy Support
Tyrannofex
Rupture Cannon
Shreddershard Beetles (Thorax)


this is a modification of the 1250 point list i got feedback on recently, but anything further to make a decent army out of it would be much appreciated.

ALShrive

[Sonikgav]

I don't see the point of the Tyrant here. On foot and without guard hes going to struggle to get anywhere near combat. Sure hes just as squishy with Wings as Without but the wings make him a speedy threat. Here hes just a kill point to take out at your opponents leisure with the spare anti tank weapons. He hasn't even got one of the Tactical upgrades. I know you said you're not the uber competitive type, neither am I, but I like my units to have a reason other than getting shot at.

Save some points, Bonesword Prime in with the Warriors and beef them up a bit or get many more Gaunts or even Gargoyles for screening.

[alshrive]

I can see your point about the tyrant (the main reason for the inclusion is my love of the model!) but i can definitely see the logic behind dropping him in favour of a Prime. The other idea i had was to drop something else so i could take some tyrant guard for him, but i just cant seem to find something i want to drop- possibly the Ymgarl- haven't played with them before and i'm not sure if 5 is a viable unit... the list is currently 5 points under so if i dropped them and took 2 tyrant guard (works out perfectly points wise) would that make the list more viable or do you feel the tyrant is a lost cause?

[Sonikgav]

Walking Tyrants equipped purely for combat aren't an efficient use of ur points. They take way too long to get there. If its for combat give it wings and old adversary, if its walking give it guns and maybe up its armour save.

Ymgarls are my new favourite unit in the codex. The ability to appear as they do, if planned correctly is devastating. 5 isn't huge but too big a unit n ur gonna struggle to place the unit if the terrain is already inhabited. They're a great psychological unit if ur opponent knows U have them too.

If you want to save the Tyrant id say give him a gun and Hive Commander. Helping you're Ymgarls pop up that little bit sooner, and flanking your Warriors, or even the Tervigon could be pretty nasty.

[alshrive]

i love the idea of outflanking the Tervigon and having the Ymgarls appear in there deployment zone, if you were to go for a shooty tyrant what would you equip it with?

ALShrive

[Sonikgav]

The big Devourers or Heavy Venom Cannon depending on if U want anti infantry or anti tank.

Keep one set of Scythes or even the Bonesword/whip to keep his cost down and then one of the guns. Don't try to be tempted to add both etc.

[bethor]

I'm okay with the tyrant as you have him if you want, but guns might be a bit better. With the brood of gargoyles and shrikes, he should have cover if he's deployed behind them as a second wave (just lose the swarm, its a waste of points and will likely never be used).
The one thing i don't see the use for is the rippers. they don't claim, and you don't need the cover save. I might consider either another unit of termaguants, or hormaguants as a reserve home objective unit, or beef up the gargoyles.
Just a couple quick thought!

[alshrive]

again with the Rippers im guilty of including them because i have a pretty model (5 bases of the FW rippers= proper SWARMS!), although dropping them would free some more points so that i could be easily. i can drop the thorax swarm and take Hive Commander (for outflanking the Tervigon) for the points- that's dead easy. dropping the Rippers gives me enough points to significantly boost the gaunt or gargoyles or add another 3 Ymgarl in, that's very tempting to be frank (even though that isn't my name!). the other option would be adding more warriors into the unit as it is small and fragile....

ALShrive

[bethor]

I'd be warry of outflanking the Tervigon. You really want him spawning from turn 1 to get the most out of him and maximize your scoring. I've had better luck outflanking with larger units of warriors with deathspitters.

[Sonikgav]

I'd be warry of outflanking the Tervigon. You really want him spawning from turn 1 to get the most out of him and maximize your scoring. I've had better luck outflanking with larger units of warriors with deathspitters.

Id agree somewhat however in Annihilation games that's less true. In annihilation the Tervigon would outflank. Nothing like a T6 monstrous creature in your opponents deployment zone to distract them instead of spawning easy killpoints.

[Tynskel]

Bah-- my tyrant is this:

Defiler Tyrant
–Old Adversary, Hive Commander, Shredder Beetles, Psychic Scream, Leech Essence, Devourers, Lash/Bone Sword.
3 Guard with Lash

The unit is expensive, however, the Tyrant fires 3 guns a turn and is a Beast in combat. As well as aiding the rest of the army.


However, if you are gunna go with the configuration that you are looking at you should do this:
Tyrant
–Old Adversary, Leech Essence, Devourers, Lash/Bone Sword, Paroxysm.

Still two guns a turn, and much much better close combat for the tyrant and for the army.

[Turkadactyl]

Save the Ripper swarms for friendly games. The FW model is a great looking model, however, you have taken a troops choice that cannot claim. Try fit 8 Ymgarls in the list. That unit can easily be a game changer and the more models to absorb wounds the better. It is not too difficult to fit 8 Ymgarls in terrain as well.

[Skarekrow07]

apart from a lot of the other comments and concerns, I would suggest finding point to increase the ymgarls to 7...I personally found that to be a good number. but thats just my opinion

[alshrive]

i am really appreciating the feedback that i am getting, so to keep you all updated, i have decided on dropping the Rippers and replacing them with additional Ymgarl meaning the unit is now 8 strong- which seems to be about the recommended practical size. the other unit the worries me is the shrikes, are they worth? does anyone have any experience with them?

ALShrive

[Tynskel]

If you have not played with them you are in trouble. Shrikes are amazing with bones words. However, they are relatively fragile. You need to learn how to use them first.

[alshrive]

any hints on using them? i know the unit i have in the list is mega fragile at just 3 models strong, i was thinking of using the gargoyles as a screening unit for them? but any further advice would be much appreciated!

[jifel]

any hints on using them? i know the unit i have in the list is mega fragile at just 3 models strong, i was thinking of using the gargoyles as a screening unit for them? but any further advice would be much appreciated!

I personally like Shrikes but you MUST use BSs on them. Either dual or1/LW. My preferred loadout is LW/BS and toxin. These are absolutely insane marine killers, but the problem is, marines are incredible Shrike killers... if these guys take a full squad in rapid fire range to the face, they ll just evaporate. You're going to either want 5 or 6 in the brood or attach the Parasite, but the Parasite isnt a very good choice... and rippers are bad... Gargoyles however are a great choice in general, as good cover screens for really cheap costs. Maybe drop the 3 man Warrior Squad and use those points for 2 more shrikes.

[alshrive]

having listened to a lot of the feedback here i have taken certain steps to improving the list and make it more competitive so a big thanks to any and everybody. Below is a revised list based off of the first one that i am quite liking the look of, the biggest change dropping the Hive Tyrant and Hive Guard and replacing it with the Swarmlord and 2 Tyrant Guard buddies! does anybody think this is viable or would i be better going back to tyrant and hive guard?

just to re-cap then, the current list, factoring in feedback so far is.....

HQ
Swarmlord

2 Tyrant Guard
-Lash Whips

Elite
Doom Of Malan’tai
-Mycetic Spore – Barbed Strangler

8 Ymgarls Genestealers

Troop
Tervigon
-Scything Talons
-Cluster Spines
-Adrenal Glands
-Toxin Sacs

20 Termagants
-Fleshborer

Fast Attack
3 Tyranid Shrikes
-Scything Talons
-Pair of Boneswords

12 Gargoyles
-Fleshborer

Heavy Support
Tyrannofex
-Rupture Cannon

a grandtotal of 1496 points, meaning i am 4 points under (why does nothing cost 4 points!).
any further hints and suggestions would be much appreciated.

ALShrive

[Igmar]

I'd be warry of outflanking the Tervigon. You really want him spawning from turn 1 to get the most out of him and maximize your scoring. I've had better luck outflanking with larger units of warriors with deathspitters.

I couldn't disagree with this statement more.

Nothing is worse then rolling doubles turn one and having no options the rest of the game. The main use I've found for the gants is turning them into surprise killing machines, with furious charge and toxin sacs from the Tervigon and preffered enemy from the Tyrant, the little guys will bring down anything. I usually wait until turn 3, sometimes 4, until I spawn my first squad. Any sooner and they loose their "SURPRISE" role, and if you roll doubles too early the small squad has to march across the table and usually gets picked off. Being spawned when you need them is more valuable and useful then just going for broke turn one.

But I must say, I like your latest list, very similar to what I use to run, and not far off from what I run now. I've learned over the years that there are 3 staples to the current Tyranid codex, Tervigons, Gargoyles, and the king Hive Guard (these things are just ridiculous, especially considering the latest FAQ). My current 1500 that I've been extremely succesful against all types of armies and players is:

Tyrant, old adversary, bone swords + lash whip, talons
2 Guard

2 Tervigon, adrenal glands, toxin sacs, cluster spines, catalyst
2 squads of 10 Termagants

2 squads of 2 hive guard
2 venomthropes

20 gargoyles

Tyrannofex, rupture cannon

1500

This list (or some version of it) has won me several tournaments and I've faced everything from mech guard to foot grey knights, paladins and purifiers. Tyranids are all about the movement phase, friendly support, and timing. You want to keep all your units close to eachother so they can help eachother out. Yeah I know that's a general tactic for everyone, but it's far more important for Bugs, they loose without it. I've found that spreading out just a little too much can mean the difference between winning and loosing. The Tyrant is cheap, but effective. With a run turn 1 and 2, he's usually where he needs to be by turn 3. Use the Gargoyles as moving cover for your entire army, almsot NEVER assault with them, make your opponent waste bullets on them, the Venomethropes will save just enough to make them really annoying. The work horses of the list are the Hive Guard and Termagants (Tervigon is key here though). Use the Tyrannofex as long range anti-tank as he's moving up, before he switches to crowd control or tank assaulting, which ever is needed, hopefully he draws most the agro, then use your Hive Guard to open up the transports, spawn some guants, give them feel no pain, make sure the Tyrant is close, and assault what's left. Wash-Rinse-Repeat. It sounds simple enough, but it has taken me quite some time to master the deployment and timing of the army, but it is most effective. I often get crap that the Tyranids are a weak army, and they suck, but after I wipe the floor with them, I leave a lot of people scratching their heads. It's all about teamwork, most armies don't depend on it, but the Tyranids codex is built around it, you just got to find the combinations that work. That's why they are still my favorite army, they require more thought and planning then most armies do, and most people don't know how to deal with them when they are played right.

[alshrive]

let me start by saying thankyou, that reply contained a lot of information that i have found very very helpful. i am glad that my gut feeling about the army was heading towards an acceptable list, this fills me with a bit of confidence and definitely inspires me to get the painting moving to get the army done. i had mulled over another Tervigon but liking to add a bit of character i couldnt resist sinking the points into the Swarmlord, i may look at dropping the Shrikes now and replacing them with something closer to the list you have had such success with, i must admit i did want to include Hive Guard but dropped them in favour of Tyrant Guard for the Swarmlord, maybe this is an opportunity to work them back in to the list...

ALShrive

[Igmar]

No problem! I hope other Tyranid players can be as succesful as I have as I have seen a lot of players start them with high hopes then give up due to not being able to find their synergy and strengths fast enough. It is definitely an army that requires some patience in learning how to play them effectively. That being said, the list I posted above is not the end-all 1500 list, I constantly change things up, and regulary take the Swarmlord, he is a BEAST and totally worth his points, (though he is better suited at 2000+) but NEVER EVER EVER take him without at least 2 guard... otherwise all that beast will be is paste on the battlefield... I found that as long as I stuck with the 2 Tervigon, 2 squads of Hive Guard, and some Gargoyles, what ever else the list consisted of works well with it, (even at 1000 points) as those 3 units form a core and balance the list with everything you need: scoring, close combat strength, anti-tank, speed, and a moving cover save.

Good luck to you, you should keep us informed on your progress and how well you do at the tournament. :)

[alshrive]

i have no issues with taking the time to learn the synergies of an army. i must have the patience of a god- i managed to work for 2 years in GW retail! On the keeping you updated front;
alshrive.blogspot.com
this is my blog where i am currently, and somewhat infrequently, updating my progress with the army. so please feel free to check it out.

ALShrive