Calypso2ts
03-13-2012, 10:25 AM
I posted this over at Dakka, but thought it was worth sharing here as well.
For those who have not seen this new Forge World model yet...
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Images/Product/DefaultFW/large/decimator9.jpg
The rules for it can be found here http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/d/decimator.pdf
I am coming at this unit from a Chaos Daemons perspective - it is much different IMO for a CSM list as the trade off's you are forced to make change.
Base Rules
The model looks awesome IMO, I really love the hunched over Chaos look that is achieved without the inclusion of all the unnecessary spikey bits. It does not come with any weapons, but I am sure most people have leftover claws or cannons that can be used in place of the Forge World ones if we want to do some converting. From a rules perspective the Decimator counts as an Elites selection for Chaos Daemons - an unfortunate choice given how strong the Elites section already is with Bloodcrushers, Flamers and Fiends. For comparables in the codex, the Soul Grinder is a natural fit and the Decimator has the same WS/BS/I, Daemonic Posession, -1 armor all around and clocks in 20 points more expensive at its base cost. The SG is S10, with a 6 shot bolter, fleet, and S6 Flame template while the Decimator is S8, rerolls wounds, rolls like ordinance to penetrate armor w/ 2 Heavy Flamers. It also has a base 5+ against Weapon Destroyed/Immobilized and a 1 in 6 chance to stand back up each turn. Given its size it is also a little easier to DS as well.
If you are playing with this unit, then you have committed to Forge World and that means you can use it with some Blight Drones and Grinders to achieve armor saturation. I think it fits well in a 'Monster Mash' style list similar to the CSM variant. If you are not running that kind of list, I cannot see taking more than one of these, given it costs you a unit of Fiends or Crushers. Without Fleet, it is more likely to be Melta bait in its base configuration since it needs to close and does not do so very quickly. I also really want this thing to be able to catch vehicles and those extra D6" make a huge difference for doing that.
My take on Unholy Vigor (base model) - The 5+ save is excellent, the reanimation is a novelty.
If the Decimator is destroyed on Turn 1, there is a 40% chance it will stand up at least once by Turn 5 - Calculated using the formula (1/6) [ 1 + (2/3) + (2/3)^2 + (2/3)^3] This does include the 1/6 chance for it to succeed the previous turn and to fail with a 1 and not get any more chances. The fact that it counts as DS'ing the turn it stands up is a liability, if it was more like Thawn or Celestine this ability would be great, but he might contest an objective once in a while or survive to trash an opposing squad which will make this ability seem better than it is because it is so memorable. In many ways this memorable quality on a mediocre ability makes for a great rule because people are going to have a lot of FUN with it.
My verdict on the base model is it can fit with a heavy Grinder, Drone list but as a one of inclusion the Decimator just cannot compete in the Elites slot.
Upgrades
The Claws on the Decimator are impressive as a weapon set, but they also provide what the Daemon codex already has in abundance - good CC potential. They also provide slightly better tank busting, but the Daemon issue with tanks is more closely tied to getting 6's to hit the darn things (something the Decimator does not help with) than it is to actually penetrating the armor. Flaming the contents of a vehicle on a penetrating hit is a nice addition but is going to cause some rules disputes (when I inflict 25% casualties for example and the unit fails its moral while embarked in the transport...).
The Decimator does have some interesting weapon upgrades though to transform it into a shooting platform - albeit a BS 3 platform, but it cannot be suppressed. I have heard some debate that people think you can only take one ranged weapon, I think the FW rules are very clear - you may swap one claw for one weapon. One or both can be swapped. The potential weapon changes are a Butcher Cannon, Storm Laser, Soul Burner Petard.
Butcher Cannon
The Butcher Cannon costs 20 points with 4, S8 shots. For a Chaos Daemon army I think this thing is great. Bear with me, Daemons have almost no anti-tank shooting, this is the equivalent of a Missile Launcher when it comes to killing tanks. It has a 36" range to keep you out of harms way and I currently pay 95 points for a single BS3 AP 1 shot at 24" on a Horror unit. Getting that first transport cracked is crucial to Daemons, especially if you have 8 hungry Crushers or 6 anxious fiends who are begging to get locked into CC with one unit and multi-assault the rest of the transports.
The real question here is do you take a second or a Mark of Tzeetch? The mark increases the chance to hit to somewhere between BS 3 and BS 4, you will hit with 58% of your shots (instead of 50%) for 15 points. Since we turned this into a ranged shooting platform, I am ignoring the flamer aspect which is situationally useful. For 5 more points you can instead double the number of hits and put this thing into the 195 point range. I think it is completely worth it. 195 points brings flexibility and shooting to the Daemon army that it sorely needs. You pay a pretty heavy premium on a platform that, at the end of the day, is not super durable but it will always get at least that first salvo of shots off due to DS.
Storm Laser
The Storm Laser is 5 points cheaper than the butcher and provides between 3-5 S6, AP 3 shots at 36". I think the shooting is underwhelming for the cost and the AP 3 will not often come into play with the prevalence of cover. Occasionally you are going to get clear LoS to a target, roll like a champ and wipe a Combat squad, but those situations will just encourage you to take a weapon that does what Daemons already do well - kill MEQ. I would not bother with this upgrade, it just does not bring a lot to the table for the cost.
Soul Burner Petard
This one is interesting because I had no idea what a Petard was until wikipedia rescued me (it is a small bomb used to breach gates). I am not sure why this is a Petard - it definitely has a bomb feel to it, but I do not think S5 is going to blow many gates. The Rending option is a nice addition to provide some utility, especially when coupled with Ordinance, but overall I think Phlegm from a Grinder does this better. Also, remember putting on 2 of these or even another weapon with it is a waste since the Ordinance rules prevent you from firing any other weapons. This upgrade is cheap, but I think I would rather have an extra attack and Heavy Flamer template if I am planning to close within 24" of the enemy with this thing. That midrange of 16-24" is death for Daemons that do not have the words Fleet, Cavalry or Beasts in their profile (except Beasts of Nurgle who are naturally not Beasts...). All it guarantees is you are going to get 2 turns of maximum firepower instead of a single one.
Weapons Conclusion
Possibly a bit biased by my desire to do something useful in the shooting phase but Daemons need tank breaking shooting and only one weapon provides this. I think the single or multiple butcher cannon arrangement has a ton of potential and at range AV 12 can stand up with cover to some decent shooting - especially with the extra 5+ to preserve its guns. If a unit of Crushers or a Greater Daemon is close it also creates a difficult dilemma for an opponent to deal with.
Dedication
All of these cost the same, but they are not all created equally. I think there should have been some variation in the costing to make all of them a competitive interesting choice. Here are my opinions in the order they appear on the data sheet.
Khorne
I wish this just added a straight up +1 attack to the profile, if that was the case I would definitely take this for a CC configuration. As it stands now I could go either way. It is mediocre overall, which means it is probably costed appropriately for the ability. Take this if you have some extra points to fill in on the CC configuration but leave it otherwise.
Nurgle
This one is interesting and might be costed well. It reduces the chance to lose your reanimationroll by rolling a 1 to 1 in 36 which is great and let's you come back a little less than 1/3 (30%) of the time. Overall at 15 points this brings back your Decimator by Turn 5 with a 70% chance. I was a bit surprised when I crunched the numbers on this because I thought it was going to be a quirky trap item. This upgrade makes the novelty part of Unholy Vigor really good. I would recommend this upgrade for the ranged and Melee variants of the Decimator (I know it pushes my 2 Butcher Cannons up to 210 points!). It is probably better on a shooting platform since it counts as DS'ing when it returns, but it will annoyingly win you games once in a while as well.
Slaanesh
I love Slaanesh in general, that is my go to god but this upgrade does not compete overall. What it really lets you do is go before Power Fists or Necrons when charging into cover. With I3, I would jsut take the heat and go simultaneously with a Power Fist while hoping for the best. Either way you cannot avoid those Krak Grenades they are planting on you and with those glancing plus posession plus vigor you are probably not taking much damage from them anyway. The defensive grenades are nice, but the only guys who will be hurting you are power fists and if you get charged by Terminators you are probably dead anyway. Taking a single attack away from that one Klaw or Fist embedded in a squad is just not worth it.
Tzeetch
This one just does not perform for me. You can re-roll 1's to miss, but that is only 1/3 of your misses for 1/6 more hits overall when you factor in BS 3. The Heavy Flamer upgrade lets you wound on 2's against MEQ, but they still get their armor and if it is a unit with a 4+ you can probably wipe them out on the charge anyway. If this thing also included blast markers it might have some nice synergy with the Petard, but on aggregate I think you leave this one at home.
Dedication Conclusion
The Nurgle mark is much better than the others, although I need to buy some PB for my army now to enable it. The increased chance to come back justifies what you pay for the Unholy Vigor ability in the base cost and makes this a persistent threat. At the least an opponent needs to stay away or watch armor facings on the off chance you manage to come back and unload a pair of Heavy Flamers or some Butcher cannons into their rear armor. At best this thing returns, there is nothing in position to deal with it and it goes on a shooting/assault rampage. I would almost never buy the Slaanesh and Tzeetch marks, while the Khorne mark has some potential but is just overwhelmed by Nurgle at the end of the day.
Overall Impression
The more I wrote about this unit, the more I really liked what it can bring to the table. I think it needs to be run as a single selection (in conjunction with Soul Grinders as Heavy Support choices) or as part of a Monster Mash list. The core unit it fairly good and I would take 2 with Butcher cannons in the Monster Mash list with a single CC base unit with Nurgle Dedication. As a one of I would only take this as a ranged shooting platform and the only Dedication I would consider is Nurgle given they all cost the same. This unit definitely shores up some weaknesses in the Daemon codex and I look forward to seeing what other Daemon Engines emerge with the new Legions book looming and hopefully a similar inclusion will be present when they eventually redo Daemons.
Discussion, comments and criticism are, naturally, welcome!
For those who have not seen this new Forge World model yet...
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Images/Product/DefaultFW/large/decimator9.jpg
The rules for it can be found here http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/d/decimator.pdf
I am coming at this unit from a Chaos Daemons perspective - it is much different IMO for a CSM list as the trade off's you are forced to make change.
Base Rules
The model looks awesome IMO, I really love the hunched over Chaos look that is achieved without the inclusion of all the unnecessary spikey bits. It does not come with any weapons, but I am sure most people have leftover claws or cannons that can be used in place of the Forge World ones if we want to do some converting. From a rules perspective the Decimator counts as an Elites selection for Chaos Daemons - an unfortunate choice given how strong the Elites section already is with Bloodcrushers, Flamers and Fiends. For comparables in the codex, the Soul Grinder is a natural fit and the Decimator has the same WS/BS/I, Daemonic Posession, -1 armor all around and clocks in 20 points more expensive at its base cost. The SG is S10, with a 6 shot bolter, fleet, and S6 Flame template while the Decimator is S8, rerolls wounds, rolls like ordinance to penetrate armor w/ 2 Heavy Flamers. It also has a base 5+ against Weapon Destroyed/Immobilized and a 1 in 6 chance to stand back up each turn. Given its size it is also a little easier to DS as well.
If you are playing with this unit, then you have committed to Forge World and that means you can use it with some Blight Drones and Grinders to achieve armor saturation. I think it fits well in a 'Monster Mash' style list similar to the CSM variant. If you are not running that kind of list, I cannot see taking more than one of these, given it costs you a unit of Fiends or Crushers. Without Fleet, it is more likely to be Melta bait in its base configuration since it needs to close and does not do so very quickly. I also really want this thing to be able to catch vehicles and those extra D6" make a huge difference for doing that.
My take on Unholy Vigor (base model) - The 5+ save is excellent, the reanimation is a novelty.
If the Decimator is destroyed on Turn 1, there is a 40% chance it will stand up at least once by Turn 5 - Calculated using the formula (1/6) [ 1 + (2/3) + (2/3)^2 + (2/3)^3] This does include the 1/6 chance for it to succeed the previous turn and to fail with a 1 and not get any more chances. The fact that it counts as DS'ing the turn it stands up is a liability, if it was more like Thawn or Celestine this ability would be great, but he might contest an objective once in a while or survive to trash an opposing squad which will make this ability seem better than it is because it is so memorable. In many ways this memorable quality on a mediocre ability makes for a great rule because people are going to have a lot of FUN with it.
My verdict on the base model is it can fit with a heavy Grinder, Drone list but as a one of inclusion the Decimator just cannot compete in the Elites slot.
Upgrades
The Claws on the Decimator are impressive as a weapon set, but they also provide what the Daemon codex already has in abundance - good CC potential. They also provide slightly better tank busting, but the Daemon issue with tanks is more closely tied to getting 6's to hit the darn things (something the Decimator does not help with) than it is to actually penetrating the armor. Flaming the contents of a vehicle on a penetrating hit is a nice addition but is going to cause some rules disputes (when I inflict 25% casualties for example and the unit fails its moral while embarked in the transport...).
The Decimator does have some interesting weapon upgrades though to transform it into a shooting platform - albeit a BS 3 platform, but it cannot be suppressed. I have heard some debate that people think you can only take one ranged weapon, I think the FW rules are very clear - you may swap one claw for one weapon. One or both can be swapped. The potential weapon changes are a Butcher Cannon, Storm Laser, Soul Burner Petard.
Butcher Cannon
The Butcher Cannon costs 20 points with 4, S8 shots. For a Chaos Daemon army I think this thing is great. Bear with me, Daemons have almost no anti-tank shooting, this is the equivalent of a Missile Launcher when it comes to killing tanks. It has a 36" range to keep you out of harms way and I currently pay 95 points for a single BS3 AP 1 shot at 24" on a Horror unit. Getting that first transport cracked is crucial to Daemons, especially if you have 8 hungry Crushers or 6 anxious fiends who are begging to get locked into CC with one unit and multi-assault the rest of the transports.
The real question here is do you take a second or a Mark of Tzeetch? The mark increases the chance to hit to somewhere between BS 3 and BS 4, you will hit with 58% of your shots (instead of 50%) for 15 points. Since we turned this into a ranged shooting platform, I am ignoring the flamer aspect which is situationally useful. For 5 more points you can instead double the number of hits and put this thing into the 195 point range. I think it is completely worth it. 195 points brings flexibility and shooting to the Daemon army that it sorely needs. You pay a pretty heavy premium on a platform that, at the end of the day, is not super durable but it will always get at least that first salvo of shots off due to DS.
Storm Laser
The Storm Laser is 5 points cheaper than the butcher and provides between 3-5 S6, AP 3 shots at 36". I think the shooting is underwhelming for the cost and the AP 3 will not often come into play with the prevalence of cover. Occasionally you are going to get clear LoS to a target, roll like a champ and wipe a Combat squad, but those situations will just encourage you to take a weapon that does what Daemons already do well - kill MEQ. I would not bother with this upgrade, it just does not bring a lot to the table for the cost.
Soul Burner Petard
This one is interesting because I had no idea what a Petard was until wikipedia rescued me (it is a small bomb used to breach gates). I am not sure why this is a Petard - it definitely has a bomb feel to it, but I do not think S5 is going to blow many gates. The Rending option is a nice addition to provide some utility, especially when coupled with Ordinance, but overall I think Phlegm from a Grinder does this better. Also, remember putting on 2 of these or even another weapon with it is a waste since the Ordinance rules prevent you from firing any other weapons. This upgrade is cheap, but I think I would rather have an extra attack and Heavy Flamer template if I am planning to close within 24" of the enemy with this thing. That midrange of 16-24" is death for Daemons that do not have the words Fleet, Cavalry or Beasts in their profile (except Beasts of Nurgle who are naturally not Beasts...). All it guarantees is you are going to get 2 turns of maximum firepower instead of a single one.
Weapons Conclusion
Possibly a bit biased by my desire to do something useful in the shooting phase but Daemons need tank breaking shooting and only one weapon provides this. I think the single or multiple butcher cannon arrangement has a ton of potential and at range AV 12 can stand up with cover to some decent shooting - especially with the extra 5+ to preserve its guns. If a unit of Crushers or a Greater Daemon is close it also creates a difficult dilemma for an opponent to deal with.
Dedication
All of these cost the same, but they are not all created equally. I think there should have been some variation in the costing to make all of them a competitive interesting choice. Here are my opinions in the order they appear on the data sheet.
Khorne
I wish this just added a straight up +1 attack to the profile, if that was the case I would definitely take this for a CC configuration. As it stands now I could go either way. It is mediocre overall, which means it is probably costed appropriately for the ability. Take this if you have some extra points to fill in on the CC configuration but leave it otherwise.
Nurgle
This one is interesting and might be costed well. It reduces the chance to lose your reanimationroll by rolling a 1 to 1 in 36 which is great and let's you come back a little less than 1/3 (30%) of the time. Overall at 15 points this brings back your Decimator by Turn 5 with a 70% chance. I was a bit surprised when I crunched the numbers on this because I thought it was going to be a quirky trap item. This upgrade makes the novelty part of Unholy Vigor really good. I would recommend this upgrade for the ranged and Melee variants of the Decimator (I know it pushes my 2 Butcher Cannons up to 210 points!). It is probably better on a shooting platform since it counts as DS'ing when it returns, but it will annoyingly win you games once in a while as well.
Slaanesh
I love Slaanesh in general, that is my go to god but this upgrade does not compete overall. What it really lets you do is go before Power Fists or Necrons when charging into cover. With I3, I would jsut take the heat and go simultaneously with a Power Fist while hoping for the best. Either way you cannot avoid those Krak Grenades they are planting on you and with those glancing plus posession plus vigor you are probably not taking much damage from them anyway. The defensive grenades are nice, but the only guys who will be hurting you are power fists and if you get charged by Terminators you are probably dead anyway. Taking a single attack away from that one Klaw or Fist embedded in a squad is just not worth it.
Tzeetch
This one just does not perform for me. You can re-roll 1's to miss, but that is only 1/3 of your misses for 1/6 more hits overall when you factor in BS 3. The Heavy Flamer upgrade lets you wound on 2's against MEQ, but they still get their armor and if it is a unit with a 4+ you can probably wipe them out on the charge anyway. If this thing also included blast markers it might have some nice synergy with the Petard, but on aggregate I think you leave this one at home.
Dedication Conclusion
The Nurgle mark is much better than the others, although I need to buy some PB for my army now to enable it. The increased chance to come back justifies what you pay for the Unholy Vigor ability in the base cost and makes this a persistent threat. At the least an opponent needs to stay away or watch armor facings on the off chance you manage to come back and unload a pair of Heavy Flamers or some Butcher cannons into their rear armor. At best this thing returns, there is nothing in position to deal with it and it goes on a shooting/assault rampage. I would almost never buy the Slaanesh and Tzeetch marks, while the Khorne mark has some potential but is just overwhelmed by Nurgle at the end of the day.
Overall Impression
The more I wrote about this unit, the more I really liked what it can bring to the table. I think it needs to be run as a single selection (in conjunction with Soul Grinders as Heavy Support choices) or as part of a Monster Mash list. The core unit it fairly good and I would take 2 with Butcher cannons in the Monster Mash list with a single CC base unit with Nurgle Dedication. As a one of I would only take this as a ranged shooting platform and the only Dedication I would consider is Nurgle given they all cost the same. This unit definitely shores up some weaknesses in the Daemon codex and I look forward to seeing what other Daemon Engines emerge with the new Legions book looming and hopefully a similar inclusion will be present when they eventually redo Daemons.
Discussion, comments and criticism are, naturally, welcome!