The Chaos Decimator Daemon Engine

[Fellend]

So, once again we have a unit that damages units inside transports. This time there's little doubt about it. It's says so clearly. Do the damage unit make leadership tests? Can they run? Do they flee out of the transport?

[Kawauso]

I know this has no bearing on how the rules actually work, but...

I'd get the hell out of my tank if a pair of metal claws tore it open and doused the insides with burning promethium.

[Wildcard]

If i remember correctly:

- Units never take LD test when inside a transport (like IG plasma vets / command squad that suffers gets hot! wounds)

- Damage is done at the enemys phase, and you can only exit a transport on enemys turn if the vehicle is destroyed by either explodes or wrecked results. This would lead to the assumption that no, you cannot exit by any means just to avoid the damage done to the units inside a transport. This works the other way around tho aswell, you don't have to run anywhere..

[Tynskel]

There is nowhere stating you are immune to Ld checks within a transport. If you need to run, then you follow the rules for disembarking.

[SeattleDV8]

There is nowhere stating you are immune to Ld checks within a transport. If you need to run, then you follow the rules for disembarking.

Well , we do have something close to that, not the passengers directly.
BRB pg. 63
Vehicles never take Morale checks for any reason. It is assumed that in all cases the vehicle's crew has unshakable faith in their vehicle and their orders. Any occasional laspes that do occur are represented by crew shaken and stunned results on the Damage table.
Passengers are also affected by shaken and stunned, I don't find it a huge leap to assume that they are also immune to Morale checks when embarked
(We know they are not immune to Ld tests as we are allowed to use psychic powers when embarked..Heh)

What we don't have is a rule to allow disembarking outside the movement phase barring a vehicle destroyed result.

[Tynskel]

That is a rule extrapolation. They maybe effected by shaken and stunned, but passengers do not take casualties from ANY vehicle damage except explode. AND if they take 25% casualties from the explosion, they must take a morale check.

The rulebook states that units that take 25% casualties during ANY phase must take a morale check.

[Luke Licens]

AND if they take 25% casualties from the explosion, they must take a morale check.


If the vehicle exploded, they're no longer in it, so that's a bit of a red herring.

[bfmusashi]

Q: Must passengers fire at the same target that their
vehicle is firing at? (p66)
A: No, they are a separate unit (albeit they are
temporarily co-existing with the vehicle) and so can fire
at a different target.
Q: Can an embarked unit ever be the target of enemy
shooting? (p67)
A: No. Only the transport vehicle can be hit.

I think for expedience's sake it's assumed that the co-existence grants immunity to morale. It cleans up people using ATSKNF and Bastonne's "Never Give Up, Never Surrender" to run out of the vehicle and double back to melta the engine to death.
Then again, the heavy flamer is a ranged weapon being used in the melee phase and hitting the occupants of the vehicle as a side effect of the assault, so we're in a weird place with these rules.

[jifel]

Id say that if a unit takes 25% and the vehicle survives they don't need the test, but if it is wrecked and they have to disembark immediately, then theyd have to take the Morale check at the end of the assault phase.

[bfmusashi]

Id say that if a unit takes 25% and the vehicle survives they don't need the test, but if it is wrecked and they have to disembark immediately, then theyd have to take the Morale check at the end of the assault phase.

Totally legit except when it explodes. Can you take both a pinning and a fall back check? If so, in what order?

[gungagreg]

And what would happen if the troops inside a turbo boosting speeder were forced by this to make a morale check (assuming the speeder wasn't destroyed making the issue moot)? The same rules are left unanswered in the IA book for the Siege Dreadnoughts that do the same thing.

[SeattleDV8]

If they would have to disembark (i don't believe that has been shown to be the case, but anyway)
Since it is not their Movement phase, Flat Out has no effect on the passengers.
BRB FAQ
Q: If a transport vehicle is destroyed in a Movement
phase in which it has moved flat out, what happens to
any embarked models, as passengers may not
disembark from a vehicle that has moved flat out in
that Movement phase? (p70)
A: They are removed as casualties.
Also

Totally legit except when it explodes. Can you take both a pinning and a fall back check? If so, in what order?
You take a pinning test immediately (pg.31), the Morale test at the end of the phase.

[Tynskel]

If you fail a morale check, you must flee. the only way to flee would be to hop out of you vehicle...

If I remember correctly, there are rules on how to get out of your vehicle...

[thecactusman17]

GW has repeatedly stated, without exception, that units inside vehicles do not take morale tests. They take Leadership tests, but not morale tests. They cannot be forced out of their vehicle except by a damage result. As soon as they leave the vehicle, they are subject to all normal morale tests--such as if they take 25% casualties during the phase from any source, including explosions, additional damage results (such as the Decimator), and dangerous terrain tests suffered while disembarking.

As far as the background goes, imagine that either the unit is too afraid to willingly get out into the killzone when their vehicle still functions, or perhaps even that they are trusting their vehicle to keep them safe while they prepare for disembarking and a counter attack.

[Tynskel]

uh. where? Where has this been stated? Please tell me, I want to know.

[SeattleDV8]

If you fail a morale check, you must flee. the only way to flee would be to hop out of you vehicle...

If I remember correctly, there are rules on how to get out of your vehicle...

Yes there are, during your movement phase and if the vehicle suffers a destroyed result.
There is no permission to disembark at other times.
Simular rules/timing doesn't help, to claim that is 'making crap up'.
It's easier to treat them as crew, and make them immune to Morale test when embarked.

Truth is I have rarely seen it happen.

[Nykster]

Well, I would say the GW has stated that units in vehicles to NOT take Ld tests when in vehicles. It's one of the few places that is safe from the Doom of Malenthai (spelling is terrible).
As the rules for the Dread are still experimental, perhaps they will fix this problem. I would say that the unit does not take the morale check. My reasoning for this is that the vehicle is still working, and if it's still working it can drive away from the big scary monster punching holes in it.

[Xar]

That is a rule extrapolation. They maybe effected by shaken and stunned, but passengers do not take casualties from ANY vehicle damage except explode. AND if they take 25% casualties from the explosion, they must take a morale check.

The rulebook states that units that take 25% casualties during ANY phase must take a morale check.

When designers come up with these crazy rules that go against basic design tenets, they need to be more specific about possible results.

[dreadnaughtguy]

It is a wierd damage result. You are not being hit by a ranged weapon. It is just like the necron lightning field used by crypteks. It does a str and ap attack before eithor side attacks. The unit inside is not taking damage from the attack or a shooting atack its a wierd effect that causes wounds to a unit inside a vehicle using a shooting profile.

The easy solution is to ask FW since its their model.

[Tynskel]

Yes there are, during your movement phase and if the vehicle suffers a destroyed result.
There is no permission to disembark at other times.
Simular rules/timing doesn't help, to claim that is 'making crap up'.
It's easier to treat them as crew, and make them immune to Morale test when embarked.

Truth is I have rarely seen it happen.

this isn't 'making crap up'.
The rules explain how to get out of a vehicle when forced to.

[SeattleDV8]

Fine, show us where in the BRB are the rules for disembarking for failing a Ld test.
You can't because it is a hole in the rules.
It's not addressed at all.
Both sides of this have house rules or crap we make up.

My idea is no morale tests when embarked just means we ignore the test for 25% loss, just like we do when locked in combat.
Your idea means we have to come up with a ruling for disembarking, is it allowed or not.
Then if they can't disembark are they destroyed or not?
Your idea adds complexity, and the need to make up even more crap in order to make it work, for no good purpose.

Keep it simple, just ignore the test.

[Tynskel]

This isn't about making crap up.

The rulebook states you MUST fall back. The only way to do that in the vehicle is to disembark.
I don't understand why there must be a rule on how to disembark from a vehicle when there are ALREADY rules to disembark a vehicle in emergencies...

The rulebook has EXPLICIT rules for both when you cannot disembark and are forced to, and if you cannot runaway when you are forced to. In BOTH cases, the unit is wiped out!





I think the real issue here is rules interpretation.

One group says follow rules to the letter--- assuming the rulebook is infallible. The situation we are talking about would require 2+2= ? Unknown, because 2+2 is not explicitly described.

BUT we already KNOW that is wrong.

The other group is saying--- hey look, these rules may be interpreted. And, there are situations that are not explicitly stated, but DO occur. The rulebook is flexible enough for players to take 2+2 and make 4. Hence why you can roll a 4+ and move on.... that's an EXPLICIT RULE!!!!

[Fellend]

Passengers aren't allowed to disembark if the transport has moved at full speed 18"(cruising speeds on roads or flying transports) Does that mean that they all get wiped if forced to disembark after the transport has moved?

[Tynskel]

Passengers aren't allowed to disembark if the transport has moved at full speed 18"(cruising speeds on roads or flying transports) Does that mean that they all get wiped if forced to disembark after the transport has moved?

yup. sucks trying to jump out of a transport that's moving too fast!
However, you gotta think about that one--- that requires the dread to hit on a 6, AND wound enough people inside to cause a 25% morale check AND then to fail such morale check.

[SeattleDV8]

Well thats just silly.
The only time you are disallowed from disembarking from moving flat out, is in your own Movement phase.
So if we agree that the unit has to test and disembark (which I do not) the speed of the vehicle would never be an issue.
In that there is no way to damage embarked units in their movement phase.

[Tynskel]

Well thats just silly.
The only time you are disallowed from disembarking from moving flat out, is in your own Movement phase.
So if we agree that the unit has to test and disembark (which I do not) the speed of the vehicle would never be an issue.
In that there is no way to damage embarked units in their movement phase.

oh yeah. Forgot about that. :)

you can still crash n' burn in the movement phase, though!

[thecactusman17]

Yeah, but what happens in the movement phase isn't the issue. What is the issue is what happens to units who take damage when inside a vehicle. And the response is "they take the wounds but don't flee." E know thus us the case thanks toImperial Guard who have two units that can be forced to take a Morale check while embarked. Vets with 3 plasma weapons, and psyker squads. Both can potentially lose their models on a bad roll. And yet, they won't flee because they cannot be forcibly disembarked from the vehicle without the vehicle being destroyed.

furthermore, who is going to get out of the relative safety of a tank studded with firing Ports when the alternative is standing in front of a giant melee robot?

[Tynskel]

I don't know where you get the idea that they don't flee. There's nothing that says they don't take the test.
Ah, but the rulebook states that if you fail the morale check you MUST flee. That REQUIRES that you disembark, otherwise, you are destroyed for not moving.

Clearly, you don't understand that when the robot is 'tearing your vehicle a new a-hole', and then shooting 'gouts of flames' into your vehicle, that it might cross your mind to get out. Mayyyyyybe, but, that's just me.