Ork antitank

[mysterex]

I'm part way through putting together a vehicle-free ork army and just realised that I've got a problem with being able to stop tanks, particularly armour 13 and 14.

I was just wondering what other people's experience has been. I've already got a couple of buzz saw equipped copters and I'll get snikrot so I can get a boss onto the back table, otherwise my initial thoughts on the options were:

Lootas - can't move & shoot so it's possible to hide from them and can't do anything to armour 14
Tank busters - too easy to bait and too hard to control
Nob squads with power claws - points sink
Nob squads on bikes with power claws - bigger points sink and the unit cost will limit the amount of boys on foot I could take too much
Mega nobs - too slow ( really need transport)


So, given the general theme of no vehicles, what are everyone's thoughts, i.e. have I just got it wrong or do vehicle-free orks armies just have a problem with vehicles.

[Houghten]

Two words: power klaws. You've mentioned putting them on Nobz mobz but where are your Nob leaders for your Boyz mobz?

[Arch_Bishop]

I would have said deff-rollers, but.....

I'd go for a warboss on bike with power klaw, and just save him for the right moment to get a hit on an armor 13-14 vehicle. You could take a few bikers for protection, depending on available points.

When you say a "no vehicle" army, does that mean no bikes as well? So all foot sloggers? If so, then just cram as many power klaws into your squads as possible.

In saying that, you are always going to struggle when you limit your build via theme, but this shouldn't be such a bad thing. You will just have to get creative!

[Cuddy]

Eh. Ork anti tank is already a weak point, taking out vehicles makes it that much harder. I like tankbusta's just keep them screened with grots until you need them (they have to shoot/assault a vehicle if in line of sight, which isn't too bad since that what you want to do with them 99% of the time anyway). A14 is usually a land raider anyway, so it will likely be coming towards you anyway.

[Mr.Pickelz]

if you want no mech, aka no vehicles, then lootas and powerklaw bikers are your best bet. one thing to look at is small squads of bikers or deffkoptas with klaws/buzzsaws, the Mek with Shokk attack gun is one option, but not a very good one, you also got the Grot artillery, Zapp guns and Kannons, their cheap BS 3 units that are easy to hide in cover. and with ammo runts a squad of 3 Kannons comes to 69 points. If you take Ork mobz(you should) then give them rockets (1 per 10 orks in a unit)

The problem with foot orks will be the lack of a ranged AT option. It's the big weakness of that style of ork army.

[DarkLink]

Orks really need a deff rolla or two. Klaws and rockets on everything that can take them. Lootas are a must, despite the fact that every ork player I've talked to say they consistently fail to do anything. Tankbustas can kinda work, if you take vehicles to control their LOS so you can shoot them at what you want.

But Deff rollas are Orks best anti-tank. They're amazing. Between deff rollas, kffs and Ghaz's Waaaggghhh, orks have enough nasty tricks to be one of the most competitive armies in the game.

[Frankio9]

Deffkoptas with Rokkit Launchas might surprise you, they've killed a fair number of tanks over the years in my army. And, asmentioned above already, Big Guns are cheap and can put a dent in armour aswell :)

[slopike]

Orks really need a deff rolla or two. Klaws and rockets on everything that can take them. Lootas are a must, despite the fact that every ork player I've talked to say they consistently fail to do anything. Tankbustas can kinda work, if you take vehicles to control their LOS so you can shoot them at what you want.

But Deff rollas are Orks best anti-tank. They're amazing. Between deff rollas, kffs and Ghaz's Waaaggghhh, orks have enough nasty tricks to be one of the most competitive armies in the game.



The times that I have played my orks I have found lootas to be extremely useful. For either pouring on the wounds to a squad or montrous creature, or destroying light vehicles/transports. Admittedly they are only semi useful against av 13 and useless against 14 of course. On another plus side, if you have a full squad lootas also give you the chance to roll 45 dice at once for shooting:) Even though not too many usually hit...:)

And without vehicles I would say rokkitts for that chance to pierce av 13/14 and as said powerklaws for melee tank busting. And a warboss or two with klaws to give you that strength 10 klaw attacks is mighty nice:).

[Forrix]

the orks best anti tank is putting a power klaw pretty much everywhere you can. That being said Lootas are both awesome and flexible able to shoot up light tanks and force armor saves on any infantry i have been consistently and pleasantly surprised be them. And someone else said it deathkoptas with missiles can move around lots and get twin linked to help with the joke that is ork accuracy they can really do good things.

[MrGiggles]

I realize the Glory Hogs rule makes people wary of Tankbustas, but I really haven't found it that big of an issue to deal with lately. Now that most armies are pretty heavily 'Meched Up', the best term I can give you is 'Target Rich Environment'. This goes doubly true if you're running a foot list. Those large Mobz of Boyz start to take up a lot of real estate as they spread out on the board and that makes it very hard to hide vehicles (or anything else for that matter) by even the second or third turn.

I'm not saying that Tankbustas are the rosetta stone of Ork anti-vehicle, but I've had good luck with them in the past few games I've played simply because there are enough vehicles on the board that it's tough (thought not impossible) for opponents to lead your Tankbustas around with things they can't destroy given that most people want their Rhinos, Razorbacks, Dreadnoughts, etc. to be doing something other than running from a Mob of Tankbustas. That tends to bring them into the unit's threat range pretty easily.

The other methods of getting rid of armour definitely work as well, I just figured I'd weigh in on Tankbustas. The amount of tanks of the table these days has definitely given them a new lease on life as it were.

[mysterex]

Thanks guys.

My general theme was nothing that was classed as a vehicle, although I had no problem with bikes other than the points cost.

My aim was twofold:

Usually I play MEQ with a reasonable number of vehicles and wanted to create an army that was completely different to improve how I play the game; and
I wanted to try to flood the table with models in big units and render my opponents expensive anti-mech largely useless


So, I'd already put claws on all Nob squad leaders and have rokkits on all but one of my boyz squads. I don't like cookie cutter armies so I have one squad of shootas/big shootas and the squads are all different sizes.

Based on the comments so far I may look at trying big gunz and maybe some tankbustas. While static the big gunz are cheap and take up the heavy support slots which I have no use for.

[newtoncain]

grot guns

[GrogDaTyrant]

Based on the comments so far I may look at trying big gunz and maybe some tankbustas. While static the big gunz are cheap and take up the heavy support slots which I have no use for.

Tankbustas require micromanaging in the worst circumstances, and substantial luck in the bet. That said, 5 with Tankhammers (and possibly a PK Nob) in a dragooned trukk, makes for an effective sacrificial Land-Raider killer.

As far as Big Guns go, just don't go for Zzaps. They're a colossal waste of points. Kannons are dirt-cheap and expendable 'missile launchers' in all fairness, and will give you a static Str 8 instead of an erratic and rarely Str 9+ that the Zzap offers. But if points are of no concern, Kanz with Rokkits can be just as useful, though Grot-Zookas are massively devastating. 3 Grot-Zooka kans will make Thunderfire Cannons look like a chump's weapon, for less than 1.5x as many points.

Anyways I second the other comments on Ork Anti-Tank options. PK-Nobs in your units that have Nob Leaders (no exceptions). Lootas and Deffrollas are solid investments as well. But on a side note if IA8 is allowed, you'll find that you have some options available to you. Soopa-Kannons give the Battlewagon and Big Trakk a potentially devastating Ordnance cannon that is truly befitting of an Ork army. It also makes for some potentially snazzy ork-tank conversions.

[bethor]

If you are willing to take walkers (still technically all foot), Kanz make for excellent AT. 3 Rokkits are great, and the 9 S 10 attacks on the charge are better.

Failing that, the 3x3 kannon with ammo grunts.

[canoebuilder001]

PowerKlaws are the main way to crunch armor. While armor 14 is a pain, I rarely see it on the board, as most armies in my gaming area are moving towards MSU and away from the huge hammer lists.

This being said, a warboss with a PK charging into a land raider is hitting at strength 10. That is more than enough to mash a LR and get to the bits inside.

[Bean]

Lootas are the premier ant-light-armor unit in the Ork Codex.

For heavy armour, it's obviously the Death rolla, but since you're not taking vehicles, that's out.

Short of the Death Rolla, the only good option Orks have against heavy armour is close combat with power claws (shooting rockets at a land raider is an exercise in futility).

So, you should be looking to pack in power claws. Obviously, every squad nob should have one. Buzz-saw copters are a reasonable way to deliver fast, anti-tank power-fist attacks, too, as are biker nobs (don't play foot nobs) and small biker squads with a single power-klaw nob. That'd be my advice.

Honestly, if you're really gonna play foot orks, I'd seriously advise investing in a decent nob biker squad. I know it's a lot of points, but it's worth it--especially in the non-mech list.

[mysterex]

I'm not sold on a cheap squad of bike nobs as a way of delivering a single anti tank power claw because:

I can do it better/cheaper using deffkoptas or storm boyz; and
The main reason nobs are rated is 5th's wound allocation and cover (exhaust cloud) rules. I can see these being toned down by 6th in a few months.


I've already got a couple of single deffkopta buzzsaw units so I've got that covered. While nobs can be a scoring unit, and so used for last minute land grabs, I don't see that as an issue.

The other way to use bike nobs is to throw hundreds of points at the unit and I'd rather thrown (close to) hundreds of boyz on the table.

Finally I'm not that concerned by light armour I hoping with the number of boyz I want to field that it will never be much farther than a charge away, it's just the heavy stuff that's got me concerned.

[Bean]

I'm not sold on a cheap squad of bike nobs as a way of delivering a single anti tank power claw because:

I can do it better/cheaper using deffkoptas or storm boyz; and
The main reason nobs are rated is 5th's wound allocation and cover (exhaust cloud) rules. I can see these being toned down by 6th in a few months.



Agreed--but, again, a small squad of regular bikers (not nobs) can be worthwhile as a pk delivery method.


Finally I'm not that concerned by light armour I hoping with the number of boyz I want to field that it will never be much farther than a charge away, it's just the heavy stuff that's got me concerned.

Fair. In that case, just focus on delivering power klaws. Nothing ranged in the Ork codex really does heavy anti-tank.

[miweq]

From my Guardish point of view the best anti-tank of Orks are Lootas. They can easily rip apart all my vehicles with exception of Leman Russes.
Another terrible things are Deffkoptas - if my oponents has the initiative and scout moves 24'' it usually means that my Manticore or Leman is out of action :(
Mass of power klaws isn't too scary for me as AV10 back armour can be penetrated in combat by almost anything.

[pathwinder14]

You need power Klaws in every squad as well as rokkit launchas in as many squads as you can get them. Ork boys come max 30 to a squad and up to 3 in the squad can have rokkit launchas.

[Neelam]

Twin-linked rokkits on the kopters / kans (can they take them?) .

[marsdonut]

Everything you need for anti-tank with orks is unreliable. Best if you just throw it all at once and see what sticks.

Here is how I rate anti-tank in the codex:

Big Gunz (bs3 str8) - best
Powerklaws (s9)
Deffkoptas twinlinked rokkits
Deffrolla (str 10)
Ork and Grot Dreadnought assaulting
Tankbustas' shooting
Lootas
wagon's Kannon/Boomgun
Tankbustas w/ tankhammers
Tankbustas in assault -grenades-
Deffkopta assault w/ buzzsaw
Weirdboy melta (str 10 ap 1)
Killkannon str 7
Trukk's plank or wrecking ball
Suicide trukk w/ reinforced ram moving 18" and ramming
Snikrot str 6
Choppa boy
Shoota boy - worst, yet still possible

Few notes: deffguns outrange kannonz which outrange rokkits. suicide trukk for games when tank shock = being able to ram, outside of assault there are only a hand ful of options

[Jetforce]

Maybe even Shokk attack gun, although that kinda of varies between the damage and rolls you get.
Nob bikers even? Add the powerklaws or combi rockets, despite BS 3 might help soften the target first then assault later?

[Bean]

Everything you need for anti-tank with orks is unreliable. Best if you just throw it all at once and see what sticks.

Here is how I rate anti-tank in the codex:

Big Gunz (bs3 str8) - best
Powerklaws (s9)
Deffkoptas twinlinked rokkits
Deffrolla (str 10)
Ork and Grot Dreadnought assaulting
Tankbustas' shooting
Lootas
wagon's Kannon/Boomgun
Tankbustas w/ tankhammers
Tankbustas in assault -grenades-
Deffkopta assault w/ buzzsaw
Weirdboy melta (str 10 ap 1)
Killkannon str 7
Trukk's plank or wrecking ball
Suicide trukk w/ reinforced ram moving 18" and ramming
Snikrot str 6
Choppa boy
Shoota boy - worst, yet still possible

Few notes: deffguns outrange kannonz which outrange rokkits. suicide trukk for games when tank shock = being able to ram, outside of assault there are only a hand ful of options

You forgot the Deathrolla! Not only is it easily the best anti-tank in the codex, it's some of the best anti-tank anywhere.

[marsdonut]

@Bean
I have it at # 4 labeled as a deffrolla. Battlewagons are awesome, but they take some time getting to your opponent even with all the trimmings. If you noticed, I rated things by range except for the lootas.

@Jetforce
Grots are the only units in the ork codex with BS 3, and any option for a BS 2 missile should never be one-shot! I think the main question OP should him or herself is whether you're attacking in waves, or all at once! (Jet/Bikes in assault are only good for getting there quick)

Yea, I forgot about the SAG as well as Zzap guns. I suppose although they're variable, I would prefer zzap guns more than a SAG against vehicles because if you're already glancing, you're always at least causing 'crew shaken'. I think I would also rate the SAG lower than the weirdboy's melta ability :p

[Bean]

I have it at # 4 labeled as a deffrolla. Battlewagons are awesome, but they take some time getting to your opponent even with all the trimmings. If you noticed, I rated things by range except for the lootas.

Grots are the only units in the ork codex with BS 3, and any option for a BS 2 missile should never be one-shot! I think the main question OP should him or herself is whether you're attacking in waves, or all at once! (Jet/Bikes in assault are only good for getting there quick)

Ah, you're right. Sorry. I missed it.

I still think it deserves the number-one slot. Grot Guns are fine, but they're basically guard missile teams, and that's just not good enough to warrant being called the best. Sure, they've got the range, but they just don't have the output. Deathrollas have the output, and since Orks are basically just about getting in people's faces anyway, the range just isn't that big of a deal.

[marsdonut]

You make a good point. I rated powerklaws higher than deffrollas because when I typed it out, I already had imaginary orks disembarking their battlewagon and assaulting some vehicles. Deffrollas are probably the best overall, but my list was just for fun and an attempt to argue that the best anti-tank could be the smallest. :)

I suppose the next best list is one like...

_Ork Anti-tank_
deffrolla - best!
deffrolla
deffrolla
deffrolla
deffrolla
deffrolla
deffrolla missing - worst!

[RFHolloway]

does vehcule free mean no guns? a couple of units of cannons may be worth considering as a cheap option.

[faeslayer]

Rather than run a zillion deffrollas, I'm thinking of using Nobs to stick my BWs in the elite slot and taking 3 full batteries of Kannon Big Gunz with ammo runts.

9 S8 shots with ridiculous range, and rerolled 4+ to hit... it's downright un-orky, and cheap, which leaves more room for boyz and nobz.

Is this a terrible idea?

[Speed Freek]

I ran a footslogging Ork list for a while.

I used Loota's to take down transports.

I used a nob biker squad with warboss with power claw to take out heavy tanks. If they were close together I would multi assault. If they were separated I would split off the warboss to take out the big nasty vehicles and use the rest of the nob's to take out whatever else was either dangerous or tasty.

[Ork E Nuff]

What I've done:
Warboss with power klaw - some would call it a point pit or sink, but at S 10, what's not to love; attach him to a Nobz unit to keep him alive, cybork body, etc...pays some dividends in the end.
Big Mek with Shokk Attack Gun - power klaw as well, variable S, plus what's funnier than launching your mek into close combat with a target? I did this once before, hence the need for a power klaw.
Tankbustas - kitted out as best you can. Use them smartly. Don't charge the closest vehicle just because it's there. I've won and lost against all kinds of vehicles with them. Remember your rokkit launcha is an assault weapon, so move, shoot, and assault with tankbustas bomz.
Burnas - don't underestimate the lowly burna mob. Go 15 strong, replace 3 with meks (with their kustom mega blastas). Don't waste flaming shots; if it's a vehicle, attack with your burnas as power weapons. Ok, they are only S 4, but remember with 2 attacks, 3 on a charge, and if you do it right, attacking the back, you can get lucky. If the meks KMBs hit with their S7 shots, then you might have a chance of at the very least stunnig, shaking, or immobilizing your prey.
I don't know if you consider walkers as vehicles, some do, some don't. If don't, consider the lowly kans with rokkit launchas and a dredd with rokkit launcha and KMB.

Just a thought, take it for what it's worth.:D

[faeslayer]

What I've done:
Warboss with power klaw - some would call it a point pit or sink, but at S 10, what's not to love; attach him to a Nobz unit to keep him alive, cybork body, etc...pays some dividends in the end.
Big Mek with Shokk Attack Gun - power klaw as well, variable S, plus what's funnier than launching your mek into close combat with a target? I did this once before, hence the need for a power klaw.

With an average S7-8, the SAG is just not worth its, sadly (I love the model), especially with the just-in-case power klaw. You might get lucky, but if your shots are average, that's not great.

I save mine for Apocalypse games, after he failed again and again to kill so much as a rhino before getting waxed. :(

[mysterex]

Part of the logic behind excluding vehicles is that it significantly reduces the value of all the anti-mech people are including in their lists. So walkers were out. Similarly I wanted to limit the number of high point models unless I could hide them in a unit so nob units are probably out as well.

I also tend to have a reasonable amount of vehicles in my existing armies and wanted to play something completely different to improve my skill level.

At this point the army is all about boyz with lots of claws and rokkits, a few cheap grotz for holding my deployment zone objectives, snikrot kommadoes (probably with the boss) to apply pressure on their deployment zone, the obligatory kustom force field and a couple of buzzsaw equipped single model deffkopta units for alpha striking/outflanking enemy vehicles.

Still temped to get either grot kannons or tankbustas to help with my anti heavy armour issues as they fit with my cheap and lots of them philosophy.

Has anyone tried out bomb-squigs? They look like a laugh and with me having no vehicles they won't be causing me any problems.

[faeslayer]

Has anyone tried out bomb-squigs? They look like a laugh and with me having no vehicles they won't be causing me any problems.

While I've never used them, I'm pretty sure the favored tactic is to stick tankhunters in vehicles, so they don't waste their efforts going after tanks they can't reach/hit; so while they're good tank hunters, using them to the fullest might require a vehicle of your own.

[Kamui]

Kannons with ammo runts are great. Cheap, versaitle, and long ranged (for orks.)

I've used tankbustas with good results. They have 24 inch assault weapons so it's rare that the nearest vehicle is out of range. I also find it rare that I don't want to kill the vehicle that's closest to them. In other words, I don't see Glory Hogs as much of a fault. If you didn't manage to position them close to the one you really wanted to hit then kill the closest to get rid of the distraction. If the only vehicle in line of sight is well our of their range try to take it out with your kannons first. If you manage to wreck it then your tankbustas will be free to do what they want when their turn comes up.

I haven't used the bomb squigs but I have a friend who loves them. They don't have to target the same tank as the rest of the unit so use the tankhammers to release them while the rokkits fire away at the closest target.