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Inquisitor Soren
09-17-2009, 09:39 PM
Alright guys as BoLSers I feel we have the ability and drive, to do better than GW and re-make the Inquisition Codices. So I hear-by launch this effort with several of my personal ideas, let us re-make these codices!

~HQ~

Lord Inquisitor 0-1

Inquisitor

Grey Knight Hero 0-1

Sister of Battle Cannoness 0-1

Deathwatch Librarian 0-1

~Elites~

Officio Assassin 0-1

Death Cult Assassin Squad

Grey Knight Terminators 0-1

Death Watch Assault-Team 0-1

Acro-Flagellants 0-2

Martyr Squad

~Troops~

Inquisitorial Storm Troopers

Sister of Battle Squad 0-3

Grey Knight Squad 0-3

Death Watch Kill-Team -03

~Fast Attack~

Immoliator

Seraphim Squad 0-1

Arbites Strike Team

Dominion Squad 0-1

~Heavy Support~

Land Raider

Land Raider Redeemer

Land Raider Crusader

Grey Knight Dreadnought 0-2

Exorcist Launcher 0-1

Sisters of Battle Retributor Squad 0-2

Grey Knight Purgatus Squad 0-2

Death-Watch Anathema Squad 0-2


~By the Authority of the Immortal Emperor of Mankind!~
(May only be taken if an Inquisitor or Inquisitor Lord is part of the Force)
(Troops taken from this list meet the required 2 mandatory troops of the FOC)

Tactical Squad 0-2

Scout Squad 0-2

Infantry Platoon 0-3

Veteran Squad 0-3

Iron-Clad Dreadnought 0-1*

Dreadnought 0-1*

Terminator Squad 0-1*

Ogryn Squad 0-1

Ratling Squad 0-1

Psyker Battle Squad 0-1

Hellhound Squadron (Including Variants) 0-1

Valkyrie Squadron 0-2

Vendetta Squadron 0-1

Armored Sentinel Squadron 0-2

Scout Sentinel Squadron 0-2

Land Speeder Squadron 0-1

Leman Russ Squadron (Including Variants) 0-1**

Artillery Support Squadron (Including Variants) 0-1**

Manticore Missile Launcher 0-1**

Hydra Flak Tank Battery 0-1

(*: Only one Iron-Clad, Dreadnought, or Terminator Squad may be taken per Army)
(**: Only one Leman Russ Squadron, Artillery Support Squadron, or Manticore Missile Launcher may be taken per Army)

Right that is what I've gotten so far, shoot away dear friends!

Dunadan
09-18-2009, 09:33 AM
Grey Knights
Statline: +1 attack, but Grey Knights get no charge bonus.
Wargear: Unchanged
The Aegis: Unchanged
Rites of Exorcism: Chaos Icons (of any kind) within 6" of a Grey Knight do not work. Grey Knights count as having defensive grenades against Daemons. Daemons that charge a unit of Grey Knights must test as though charging through difficult terrain.
The Shrouding:Reroll all successful rolls to wound from shooting attacks against Grey Knights. 5+ Invul. save in close combat.

Up to two Grey Knights may exchange their Nemesis Force Weapon and Stormbolter for a:
-Incinerator...Free
-Psycannon...+10 pts

GKT
See above for special rules changes. Leave the profile as is, but change the wargear options to:
-Incinerator...+10
-Psycannon...+15
-Holocaust...Free for 10-man squads, +5 pts for smaller squads.
-Keep the option to take TH/SS, but use the newer rules. If the Brother-Captain takes this option, he gets a Daemonhammer instead.


-][- Stormtroopers
Statline: Unchanged
Wargear: Hellgun, Hellpistol, Close Combat Weapon, Frag & Krak Grenades.
Hellgun: 24" S4 AP- Rapid Fire
Hellpistol: 12" S4 AP- Pistol
Sergeant may exhcange his Hellgun for a:
-Boltgun...+2 pts
Sergeant may exchange his Hellgun* or Hellpistol for a:
-Plasma Pistol...+10 pts
-Bolt Pistol...+2 pts
Sergeant may exchange his Close Combat Weapon for a:
-Power Weapon...+10 pts
-Power Fist...+15 pts
Up to two Stormtroopers may exchange their Hellgun for a:
-Flamer or Grenade launcher...+5 pts
-Meltagun...+10 pts
-Plasma Gun...+15 pts
Each Stormtrooper Squad must select which Order of the Inquisition it is from:
-Ordo Xenos: Any Stormtrooper may exchange his Hellgun for a Boltgun with Hellfire Rounds for +5 pts.
-Ordo Malleus: The Sergeant receives a Teleport Homer, and one Stormtrooper may upgrade his Flamer to an Incinerator for +10 pts.
-Ordo Hereticus: Any Stormtrooper may exchange his Hellgun for a Shotgun (12" S4 AP- Assault 2/6-18" S4 AP5 Assult 1, Twin-linked, Ignores cover)**.

*The chance for dual-wielding pistols is too fun to pass up
**Credit to BoLS for coming up with the rules for Executioner rounds.

Inquisitor Soren
09-18-2009, 01:22 PM
Lord Inquisitor 0-1 75pts
Statline: 4/4/3/3/3/4/3/10/3+ 4++
Special Rules: Stubborn
Wargear: Bolt Pistol, Power Armor, Rosarius, Bolt Gun, Power Weapon
Options:
May Take... (Note: Only one type on rounds maybe taken, fumbling with so much ammo in combat is a sure way to die...)
-Hellfire Rounds +5pts
-Psycannon Rounds +5pts
-Psychic Hood +10pts (Only if the Inquisitor takes a Psychic Power, Powers listed below.)
-Familiar +5pts (+1 I, may take an additional psychic power.) (Only if the Inquisitor takes a Psychic Power, Powers listed below.)
-Digi Weapons +5pts
-Orbital Relay +20pts (New War Gear Described below)
May Exchange Bolt Gun or Bolt Pistol for...
-Combi-Weapon +5pts
-Psycannon +10pts
-Plasma Gun +10pts
-Plasma Pistol +10pts*
May Exchange Power Weapon or Bolt Pistol for...
-Force Weapon +15pts
-Relic Weapon +15pts
-Daemon Hammer +20pts
-Thunder Hammer +15pts
-Plasma Pistol +10pts*
-Storm Shield +15pts

Psychic Powers: (Taking Psychic Powers counts the Inquisitor as a Psyker.) (M-Movement Phase, S-Shooting Phase, A-Assault Phase)

S-Purgatus +20pts (Contested Leadership roll, success, opponent loses 1 wound no saves and permanent -3 leadership.)
S-Scouring +10pts (Range: 24", Strength: 4, AP: 3, Assault: 3, Ignores Invulnerable Saves.)
A-His Will Be Done +10pts (Each wound in Melee caused by the Inquisitor counts for two for combat resolution purposes.)
M-Sanctuary: +20pts (All enemy units with 3" of the Inquisitor are pushed back to the minimum required distance, around terrain as necessary, enemy units may not charge the Inquisitor and his unit, shooting attacks directed against the Inquisitor and his unit fail. The Inquisitor and his unit may take no other actions during their turn, and do not count as scoring.) (This Power may be used even if the psyker is in CC, thereby removing himself, and most likely his unit, from the combat, possibly ending it.)
A-Hammerhand: +15pts (The Inquisitor wounds his opponents on a 2+, and is treated as Strength 9 for the purpose of assaulting vehicles.) (The Inquisitor will forsake the use of any melee weapons he posses in the turn in which he uses this power and will be unable to claim any bonuses awarded from them.)
M-Cauterizing Light: 20pts (Every model in the Inquisitors unit gains Feel no Pain until its next movement phase, and suffers a strength 4 wound, armor saves allowed as normal.)
S-Burning Helix: 25pts (Range: 18", Strength: 7, AP: 2, Heavy 1, Large Blast)
S-Divine Pronouncement: 5pts (Target enemy unit within 24" takes a leadership test at a -2)

Orbital Relay: Range: Unlimited, Strength: 10, AP: 1, Assault 1, Large Blast, Pinning. The Inquisitors armor is equipped with an advanced targeting array, once per game the Inquisitor may call down a limited Orbital Strike from an orbiting vessel to crush his opponents strong points. (Do to time delay, positioning or countless other factors this ability may only be used from the second turn onward.)

* (If two pistols are taken, they count as twin-linked, if they are different types either profile maybe used.)

Blessings: Inquisitors are undoubtedly exceptional individuals with incredible qualities as such an Inquisitor may purchase any one of the following abilities while Inquisitor Lords may purchase two. (Duplicates may not be purchased on a single model.)

5pts-Hawk-Eyed: +2 BS
5pts-Skilled Duelist: +2 WS
5pts-Strong Arm: +1 Strength
5pts-Lightning Reflexes: +2 Initiative
15pts-Body of Stone: Eternal Warrior
10pts-Iron Will: May pass or fail any morale test.
15pts-Skilled Psyker: May choose an additional Psychic Power and use an additional Psychic Power per turn.
15pts-Boundless Faith: +2 Faith Points
15pts-Skilled Tactician: During deployment choose one unit, that unit gains Scout or Infiltrate.
30pts-Man of Steel: +1 Wound, +1 Toughness, +1 Strength, Ponderous**
20pts-Sealed Soul: Any psychic power that would effect the Inquisitor fails and the caster suffers a Perils of the Warp, Unable to take psychic powers.

** Ponderous: A ponderous unit always moves as if in difficult terrain, strikes last in Initiative regardless of other factors, and any transport with a front armor of less than 14 moves only 6+d6" at cruising speed.

Ok comments, thoughts, screams of terror?

Atrotos
09-18-2009, 01:59 PM
Wow, some really great material there guys, I love all of it. What I would like from this thread is a) some playtest results b) some reactions from the BoLS guys who have a lot of experience in this kind of project.

EDIT: Storm Troopers should def get Krak grenades standard I think.

Faultie
09-18-2009, 03:11 PM
Wow, some really great material there guys, I love all of it. What I would like from this thread is a) some playtest results b) some reactions from the BoLS guys who have a lot of experience in this kind of project.

EDIT: Storm Troopers should def get Krak grenades standard I think.

I agree. Kraks should come with them.

Inquisitor Soren
09-18-2009, 03:31 PM
Thanks for the comment, appreciated, now onto the next one GKH

Grey Knight Hero 0-1 175pts
5/5/4/4/3/5/5/2+ 4++
Wargear: Terminator Armor, Storm Bolter, Nemesis Force Weapon, Psychic Hood, Icon of the Just, Cleansing Incense*

Special Rules: Fearless, True Grit, The Shrouding*, Rites of Exorcism*, Aegis*, Psyker

May take...
Psycannon rounds +5pts
Digi Weapons +5pts

May replace Nemesis Force Weapon with...
Daemon Hammer** +30pts

May replace Storm Bolter with...
Psycannon +15pts
Storm Shield +15pts
Daemon Hammer** +45pts

Psychic Powers:

A-His Will Be Done +10pts (Each wound in Melee caused by the Grey Knight counts for two for combat resolution purposes.)
M-Cauterizing Light: 20pts (Every model in the Grey Knight Hero's unit gains Feel no Pain until its next movement phase, and suffers a strength 4 wound, armor saves allowed as normal.)
M-Sanctuary: +20pts (All enemy units with 3" of the Grey Knight Hero are pushed back to the minimum required distance, around terrain as necessary, enemy units may not charge the Hero and his unit, shooting attacks directed against the Hero and his unit fail. The Inquisitor and his unit may take no other actions during their turn, and do not count as scoring.) (This Power may be used even if the psyker is in CC, thereby removing himself, and most likely his unit, from the combat, possibly ending it.)
S-Burning Helix: 25pts (Range: 18", Strength: 7, AP: 2, Heavy 1, Large Blast)

Special Rules*

The Shrouding: Any wounds inflicted by shooting attacks are re-rolled.
Rites of Exorcism: Daemons and Chaos models within 6" of a Grey Knight lose one attack and one initiative.
Aegis: Any psychic power used against a Grey Knight is negated on a roll of 5+. (A psychic hood may first be used to attempt to negate a power.)
Cleansing Incense: Models within 3" of a model bearing Cleansing Incense are unable to suffer Perils of the Warp.

Dual Daemon Hammers**

The Emperor's Wrath: Any enemy unit that is wounded twice in one round by a model wielding twin Daemon Hammers suffers instant death. Regardless of saves made or failed... (Creatures immune to instant death suffer two additional wounds, saves allowed as normal.)

Atrotos
09-18-2009, 04:32 PM
125 is imo 25-50 pts too cheap for this guy does...


Why does the GKH have the option to take Helffire rounds? Doesn't make much sense.

Don't be lazy! Change the wording on rules that affect a different kind of unit. The psychic powers available to the GKH should not reference an Inquisitor.

Inquisitor Soren
09-18-2009, 04:44 PM
Agreed I was rushing and lazy, fixed now.

Your right again I discussed it with my brother and HF rounds are gone.

He is also now priced up as well, Shrouding may warrant it a little higher though so, eh.

Thanks for the help! Lets keep this going!

Dunadan
09-18-2009, 05:15 PM
Added some more effects to Rites of Exorcism(see my original post).

Should units with Heavy weapons be able to take Suspensors for +5 pts?

Suspensor: Any Heavy weapon with a Suspensor may be fired as an Assault weapon at half the range. Both Psycannons and Deathwatch Heavy Bolters are described as having Suspensors, so there is fluff precedence for this. Stormtroopers could take Heavy Stubbers w/ Suspensors for +10 pts?

Inquisitor Soren
09-18-2009, 05:25 PM
Ya there is fluff for it, and I could see it, +5pts sounds ok till we can get a play run.

Heavy Stubbs are meh, honestly thats making a H Stubber what 20pts? For range 18, str 4, ap 6, assault 3 weapon...I'd rather take a melta honestly. Not all that competitive.

I think executioner rounds should be an upgrade honestly, maybe +25pts for the entire unit.

Be starting on the Cannoness here in a little bit, but I'm thinking Cauterizing Light may need a point buff, 2+/3++ FNP Thunder Hammer Terms is kinda scary and a little screwed up.

Holocaust is gonna be a GKT only ability, something to make them a little more unique and interesting.

Here is the Cannoness...

Cannoness 100pts
4/4/3/3/3/4/3/10/3+ 4++
Special Rules: Stubborn, Faithful* (2)
Wargear: Bolt Gun, Bolt Pistol, Close Combat Weapon, Power Armor, Rosarius, Frag Grenades, Krak Grenades

May take...
Psycannon Bolts: 5pts
Book of St. Lucius: 15pts
Cloak of St. Aspira: 20pts
Jump Pack: 15pts
Melta Bombs: 5pts
Litanies of Faith: 20pts
Mantle of Ophelia: 25pts

May replace Bolt Gun or Bolt Pistol with one of the following...
Plasma Pistol: 15pts
Inferno Pistol: 15pts
Combi-Weapon: 5pts
Melta Gun: 10pts
Plasma Gun: 10pts

May replace Bolt Pistol of Close Combat Weapon with one of the following...
Power Weapon: 10pts
Power Fist: 15pts
Eviscerator: 20pts
Relic Weapon: 15pts
Plasma Pistol: 20pts
Inferno Pistol: 20pts

Faithful: This unit contributes Faith Points and may use Acts of Faith.
Any psychic power used against a Sister of Battle is negated on a roll of 5+. (A psychic hood may NOT be used to attempt to negate the power first.)

Inferno Pistol: Range: 12", Strength: 8, AP: 1, Melta

(If two pistols are taken, they count as twin-linked, if they are different types either profile maybe used.)

I honestly feel that the Inferno Pistol needed a buff, tell me whatcha all think.

Atrotos
09-18-2009, 06:48 PM
Melta pistol should be AP 1 but remain at 6" range. Otherwise its a Meltagun.

Dunadan
09-18-2009, 07:00 PM
It does need a buff. Dante's was upgraded as such during the switch from 3rd ed to 4th ed codices.

Inquisitor Soren
09-18-2009, 09:20 PM
But then to gain the melta benefit you gotta be at 3" range, idk bout you guys but 3" range is a pain to get to.

I will give you that 12" maybe a little extreme, so maybe what? Range: 6", Strength: 8, AP 1, Melta at Full range? Seems like a decent compromise imho at least.

Dunadan
09-18-2009, 09:49 PM
Melta pistol should be AP 1 but remain at 6" range. Otherwise its a Meltagun.

That's the point. IC had the advantage of being able to tote around a meltagun in pistol form. If you want to get really interesting, how about

Range:Template S6 AP1 2d6 Armour penetration, does not ignore cover
Truly an "Inferno" pistol
Or AP5, ignores cover, & "gets +1 to the vehicle damage table".

Inquisitor Orders
-Ordo Xenos: May buy Hellfire Rounds OR Dragonfire Rounds. Choose one of the following
Eldar/Dark Eldar: Gains 'Preferred Enemy Eldar & Dark Eldar'. May buy Scorpion Chainsword for +2 pts or a Punisher for +10 pts.
Orks: Gains 'Preferred Enemy Orks'. May buy a Big Choppa for +3 pts or exchange his Boltgun for a Shoota.
Tyranids*: Gains 'Preferred Enemy Tyranids'. If the Inquisitor has grenades, he may throw them at Monstrous Creatures with the following profile:
Krak 6" S6 AP4 Assault 1
Melta 6" S8 AP1 Assault 1
Tau: Gains 'Preferred Enemy Tau'. May buy a Pulse Rifle or Pulse Carbine for +3 pts(replaces Boltgun).
Ordo Malleus: May buy Daemonhammer, Psycannon Rounds, Cleansing Incense, other DH weapons, etc. May take Mystics as part of his retinue.
Ordo Hereticus: May buy Combi-Stake Launchers**, Witchhammer, other WH weapons, etc. May take Chirurgeons as part of his retinue.

Witchhammer: A thunder hammer that strikes in initiative order against psykers (more expensive than Daemonhammer).
*A radical Inquisitor may instead graft a Gaunt biomorph onto one of his arms. Radical Inquisitors may not take Grey Knights, Battle Sisters, or Deathwatch Marines, but look really kewl.
**For every Warrior in the Inquisitiors retinue at the start of the game, the Inquisitor may fire his stake launcher again. This represents his troops carrying extra stakes.

Also, another idea for Rites of Exorcism: Daemons within 12" of Grey Knights lose the "Fearless" rule and are Ld 7. Too powerful?

Inquisitor Soren
09-18-2009, 10:28 PM
Losing Fearless, cool, leadership drop, over-powered.

Ordo Xenos, I pretty much hate the idea of taking equipment from other armies fluffy, yup, cool modeling, yup, having to tote around more codices, no thank you.

Throwing Grenades was actually an ability i wanted to give to deathwatch assault teams.

I kinda dislike the idea of separate retinues honestly, I dont see why a Daemon Hunter wouldn't have a Chirurgeon honestly, or a Witch Hunter a mystic.

I seriously don't know on the Inferno Pistol, making it a template then changing the template rules so it doesn't ignore cover is kinda eh imo.

The preferred enemy rule would probably be best on Death-Watch once again, which is what i intended to make them fluffy as well, but melee really isnt the place for squishy high point costs Inquisitors imo, eh personal preference I suppose.

Question: Do we really want all the ammunition being thrown around, seems like a a lot to keep track of in a game with already several units with special rules and abilities.

Dunadan
09-18-2009, 10:48 PM
Ordo Xenos, I pretty much hate the idea of taking equipment from other armies fluffy, yup, cool modeling, yup, having to tote around more codices, no thank you.
It's optional, and a quick summary could be provided, as none of those weapons are too complex.

The special ammo allows for cool, fluffy builds. We should keep it IMHO. Also, the HQs you choose should affect what kind of troops and which Ordo of Stormtroopers you can take:
GK Hero/Ordo Malleus -][-: Grey Knights & Ordo Malleus ST
SB Hero/Ordo Hereticus -][-: Battle Sisters & Ordo Hereticus ST(Arbites)
DW Hero/Ordo Xenos -][-: Deathwatch Teams & Ordo Xenos ST
Taking an 'Elites' choice Inquisitor of an Ordo only grants you Stormtroopers from that Ordo, not the specialty troops.

Could we keep the radical biomorphed Ordo Xenos Inquisitor? :D

Here's an idea for the Deathwatch(based on the old rules from the 3rd Book of the Astronomican and your suggestions)

Deathwatch Killteam
Captain 5/5/4/4/2/5/3/9/3+
Vet Space Marine 4/4/4/4/1/4/2/9/3+
Captain & 4-9 Marines
Special Rules: No Charge Bonus*, Deep Strike(can count as teleporting for purposes of teleport homers), Preferred Enemy X, Throw Grenades.
Wargear: Boltgun, Bolt Pistol*, Close Combat Weapon, Frag grenades, Melta-bombs
Up to two Marines may replace their Boltgun with one of the following special weapons:
-H. Bolter w/ Hellfire Shells & Suspensors +15
-M.40 targeter, boltgun, & ammo +5
-Flamer +5
-Meltagun +10
-Plasma Gun +15
Any Marine without a special weapon may replace his Close Combat Weapon with a:
-Power Fist +25
-Lighting Claw +25
-Paired Lightning Claws +30(replaces Boltgun as well)
-Power Weapon +15
All models not armed with a special weapon of close combat weapon may be issued one of the following special ammunition types for +5 pts a model:
-Dragonfire Rounds
-Hellfire Rounds
-Kraken Bolts
-Metal Storm Ammunition
18" S4 AP:- Assault 2

M.40 targeter, boltgun & ammo: 24" S4 AP5 Heavy 2, Pinning

'Tactical' or 'Troop' teams will limit the special CC weapons & Melta bombs to the Sgt., and only 1 H.Bolter and/or M.40 bolter may be taken. 'Devastator' teams on the other hand, lose the special weapons & some CC goodness, but can take 4x H.Bolters or M.40s.

*Instead of hanging on to 'True Grit'.

Dunadan
09-18-2009, 11:04 PM
Here's a mashup of Black Templars & Old School Grey Knights
Grey Knight Initiate Squad
Instead of taking a retinue of Terminators, a Grey Knight hero may lead a squad of 5-10 GK Initiates.
Profile:Same as PAGK
Wargear: Boltgun, Frag & Krak grenades
Special Rules:
Relentless(while the GK Hero is alive)
Aegis
The Shrouding
Rites of Exorcism
Up to two GK Initiates may exchange their Boltgun for:
-An Incinerator...+15 pts
-A Psycannon...+20 pts

Inquisitor Soren
09-18-2009, 11:09 PM
Actually I was gonna do something roughly like...

GKH: Grey Knights may be taken.
SBC: Sisters of Battle may be taken.
DWL: Death-Watch may be taken.

That way we don't end up with a hodgepodge of units each list, and can be taken as independent lists as a the players wishes etc...

The reason I did the Inquisitors the way I did was so that you could field a non-MEQ army if you wished to, so tying storm trooper option to the above units kinda defeats that idea, also I did all inquisitors as HQs as I thought it would be a little more fluffy, plus a option for a cheap HQ if one wanted, honestly when was the last time the Imperium had 4 Inquisitors in one battle force? Kinda odd to have them as Elites was my thinking.

I like the deathwatch kill team, fluffy, not over powered, though 5pts per model per ammo choice is going to be expensive fast, probably better off if you just took an entire set for the unit at 25pts, possibly a loadout option like what IG veterans have would be interesting. But I don't have any ideas for that, I'll see if I got any ideas come mornin.

Biomorphed Inq? huh, what?

Hey True Grit really is only needed on GKs with Storm Bolters, lol

I think throwing melta bombs is kinda a bad idea, frags and krak yes but bombs? Possible yes, odd, I think so at least.

Inquisitor Soren
09-18-2009, 11:12 PM
I just can't see a battle where the Grey Knights would take Scouts into battle, I mean they could it just feels...odd? I can't place a finger on it, it just seems an elite force like GKs wouldn't send neophytes into a meat grinder unprepared. It is a possibility though, we need other comments on that one.

Dunadan
09-18-2009, 11:16 PM
The Stormies aren't locked to the MeQ heroes. My thinking was that an Inquisitor OR Hero of an Ordo would unlock both Stormtroopers and the Specialist unit.


Biomorphed Inq? huh, what?
Radical Malleus: Daemonhosts
Radical Hereticus: Bound Psyker(?)
Radical Xenos: "Go on doc, stick it on; I saw some Orks do this once."



I think throwing melta bombs is kinda a bad idea, frags and krak yes but bombs? Possible yes, odd, I think so at least.


Sorry, but I don't see the point of throwing anything less than Melta Bombs at Monstrous Creatures. Krak could be nice against infantry, but Frag could be overpowered (even if it is S3 at 6", you could get a good deepstrike and toss around 10 blast templates. On second thought, that sounds like loads of fun :D)

Inquisitor Soren
09-18-2009, 11:24 PM
Eh still you'd need to be within 6" for Frag, lol.

Krak is what S6? I see it kinda like this...

Mag-Strip Krak Grenades; Range: 6", Strength: 6, AP: 2, Assault 1

That kills tyrants, wounds 'fexes, hurts elite infantry, and kills light vehicles, throwing melta bombs is like a.."Wow, ain't this kida erm...evil, cruel, malicious, and sadistic?" I'd be willing to call it an upgrade for like a sarge and try a play test of it though.

Daemon Hosts: Evil ^^
Sorceress Powers: Awesome!
Drugged-up, Psyched-up Inquisitor: Dark Eldar? No in all honesty I think thats pretty cool idea, but would it really off-set the losing Death-Watch, maybe if you got to do it to your STs ^^, maybe +1 I, +1 S Fearless? Someones in the bed with Fabius Bile...

Inquisitor Soren
09-18-2009, 11:59 PM
Death-Watch Librarian 0-1 120pts
5/5/4/4/3/5/2/10/3+

Wargear: Psychic Hood, Bolt Gun, Bolt Pistol, Force Weapon, Power Armor, Frag Grenades, Krak Grenades

Special Rules: Preferred Enemy*, Psyker, Stubborn, Grenadier*

May take...
Melta Bombs +5pts
Digi Weapons +5pts
Icon of the Just +20pts
Familiar +5pts
Hellfire Rounds +5pts
Wraithbone Ward +35pts**

May replace Bolt Gun or Bolt Pistol with one of the following...
Melta Gun +10pts
Plasma Gun +15pts
Plasma Pistol +15pts
Shuriken Pistol +1pts (Eldar)
Plasma Rifle +20pts (Tau)
Gauss Rifle +15pts (Necron)
Fusion Pistol +10pts (Eldar)
Pulse Carbine +5pts (Tau)

May replace Force Weapon or Bolt Pistol with one of the following...
Witch Blade +20pts (Eldar)
Singing Spear +25pts (Eldar)
Fusion Pistol +15pts (Eldar)
Scorpion Chainsword: Free (Eldar)
Relic Blade +10pts
Thunder Hammer +15pts
Storm Shield +15pts

Psychic Powers: (TBA) (Lookin for suggestions, and Ideas!)

Special Rules*
Preferred Enemy: At the beginning of game after deployment declare a xenos type, Kroot, Tau, Vespid, Necron, 'Nid, Ork, Eldar/Dark Eldar, any unit the Death-Watch Librarian joins gains preferred enemy against that xenos type.
Grenadier: Death-Watch are often trained to lob grenades upon enemy positions with unerring accuracy whether to bring down a monstrous creature or elite enemy unit, as such any Death-Watch member equipped with grenades may use them as a ranged weapon with the following profile.

Frag Grenades: Range: 6", Strength: 3, AP: -, Assault 1, Small Blast
Krak Grenades: Range: 6", Strength: 6, AP: 2, Assault 1

**Wraithbone Ward: If the psyker would suffer a Perils of the Warp, it is negated on a 5+, the Psyker may use an additional Psychic Power per turn.

Dunadan
09-19-2009, 12:42 AM
I figured that melta bombs could only be lobbed at MCs, as you need to clamp it onto a vehicle for it to work. The GK Initiates aren't scouts, they have the same profile as PAGK (if you have seen the Ordo Malleus list from the Realms of Chaos book, you'll know what I'm talking about. If not, back then GKs were just like normal marines with boltguns and such, they just had Fearless vs. Chaos).

Should the DW Lib have access to Mind War?

Lib Power: Visions of Terror: Make a shooting attack using a small blast template. The squad hit must take a leadership test at -1 for every model hit by the template. If they fail the leadership test, they must either fall back or go to ground, psyker's choice.

Question: If the Eldar Fusion Pistol is fine, can the Inquisitor have an Inferno Pistol of the same stat line?

I personally saw the looted Xeno gear as being more of an Inquisitor thing than a Librarian thing, as the Inquisitor isn't bound by the Codex Astartes or anything. He'd have much more leeway in using that potentially 'blasphemous' xenos' technology (the bolter fires the emperor's divine wrath, not so the pulse rifle).

Inquisitor Soren
09-19-2009, 01:05 AM
It is mentioned in the fluff, that they aren't actually bound by the codex and do use looted xeno gear on occasion as do the Inquisitors, but if I make the Inquisitor entry much larger its gonna be blinding, lol, no I agree they should be able to use looted gear as well, but we need to give the other Ordos something interesting like that as well then and I honestly don't know right now on what to give them.


"The orders of the Deathwatch are not merely the cleansing of xenos cultures. They also include the recovery and study of alien devices and artifacts. Sometimes it is necessary to use a weapon against the enemy who created it, although this is not taken lightly. The Deathwatch are constantly vigilant for sabotage, or to advise if it is truly safe to use a weapon of xenos origin." From Lexicanum so ya I do think there is president for them to be able to use Xeno tech ^^

At MCs I'd agree with ya on, more or less, maybe like a demo charge or something? But with no template? I know this argument comes up a lot in codex reduxes from what I've read, but with no consistent decision.

VoT looks lot like the DE terrorfex, its not bad, I'd suggest 18" LOS range probably for that one.

Eldar psychic powers are one of the few things I'd feel bad bout stealing from them tbh, they don't have a lot left ya know?

Dunadan
09-19-2009, 10:41 AM
The old DW Lib has Smite, so we can throw that in.

Null Dome: Psychic shooting attack: Range:18" SX AP- Assault 1. Target 1 enemy psyker. If the shot hits, that psyker may not use any psychic powers on his next turn.

Warp Cage: Psychic shooting attack: Range:18" SX AP- Assault 1. Target 1 enemy psyker. If the shot hits, that psyker suffers 'Perils of the Warp' on any roll of doubles when attempting to use a psychic power on his next turn.

Infuse Knowledge: Targets one of your squads within 12" of the Librarian (including his). If successfully cast, the squad gains the 'Preferred Enemy' special rule until the beginning of their next turn.

Xeno-rack: Target a Monstrous Creature. 18" SX AP- Assault 1, Poison 2+. If you successfully wound the Monstrous Creature, roll to wound again (even if the wound is saved). Do this until you fail to wound the creature. (too powerful? Change to poison 4+?)

Inquisitor Soren
09-19-2009, 12:27 PM
The old DW Lib has Smite, so we can throw that in.

Null Dome: Psychic shooting attack: Range:18" SX AP- Assault 1. Target 1 enemy psyker. If the shot hits, that psyker may not use any psychic powers on his next turn.

Warp Cage: Psychic shooting attack: Range:18" SX AP- Assault 1. Target 1 enemy psyker. If the shot hits, that psyker suffers 'Perils of the Warp' on any roll of doubles when attempting to use a psychic power on his next turn.

Infuse Knowledge: Targets one of your squads within 12" of the Librarian (including his). If successfully cast, the squad gains the 'Preferred Enemy' special rule until the beginning of their next turn.

Xeno-rack: Target a Monstrous Creature. 18" SX AP- Assault 1, Poison 2+. If you successfully wound the Monstrous Creature, roll to wound again (even if the wound is saved). Do this until you fail to wound the creature. (too powerful? Change to poison 4+?)

Xeno-Rack is definitely interesting, but constantly rolling would bog down gameplay I think so maybe a single wound each turn? That ignores armor?

Infuse is pretty cool I like that one, what +15pts sound bout right? One squad within 12" of the Librarian gains preferred enemy against the xenos type of the librarian's choice. Sound good?

Warp Cage, short range, limited target, psyker self wounding? Pretty cool but it doesn't really feel Death-Watch-y more like Witch Hunters

Null Dome, Anti-Farseer? Umm once again more 'round the area of Witch Hunters imo, and kinda a little insane, talk about Psychic-**** much? No psychic powers for you! Locking down an enemy psyker is kinda unfair and just a little bit cheese-y. If anyone else would comment on our ideas I think we'd get more ideas and a better balance.

Dunadan
09-19-2009, 03:37 PM
Give Warp Cage to Ordo Hereticus Inquisitors? It seems like a more balanced version of Null Dome.

As for Xeno-rack, I imagined it as an all out mental attack by the psyker on the monster that would continue until the monster was able to throw it off. Maybe the 'Poison' should decline with each roll, ie: 2+ to wound the first time, then 3+, then 4+, etc.

One other thing I thought of, though I don't know who would use it:

Warp Pillar: If cast successfully, place a small blast marker on any clear part of the table to mark the location of the Warp Pillar. The Warp Pillar is treated as impassable terrain, and blocks line of sight. A psyker may pass a psychic test in order to allow himself and any squad he is joined to ignore the Warp Pillar for that turn.

Atrotos
09-21-2009, 08:14 AM
You guys won't be able to make definite decisions without first playtesting what you have. Once you've done that you'll have more inspiration to continue this thread and not let things stagnate. Make a point of finding someone to play with these rules over the next week otherwise this is nothing more than wishlisting.

Play the rules and post the results here and we can go from there.

Dunadan
09-21-2009, 01:12 PM
In that case, let's settle on some point costs for the GK and ISTs:
GKs:Keep them the same, since we buffed their abilities
Stormtroopers: 11-12 pts, same as Tau or Battle Sisters, who have AP5 and 3+ saves, but no CCW.

DarkLink
09-27-2009, 05:12 PM
Don't limit the rules to Daemons only. You can't create a balanced set of rules when the rules only work on one of over a dozen different armies (especially when the only army it works against isn't too common). Sure, the fluff of the rule is that Grey Knight's psychic presense is painful to their enemies , particularly Daemons, but for gameplay balance's sake, just make Rites of Exorcism grant Grey Knights offensive and defensive grenades. Shrouding works on all our enemies, right?

Rites of Exorcism: The psychic and physical presence of Grey Knights is painful to their enemy, distracting them in the heat of battle. Grey knights count as being equipped with offensive and defensive grenades.

Try this for Shrouding:
The Shrouding: If a Grey Knight unit with the shrouding special rule takes an unsaved wound(s) from enemy shooting, close combat attacks, or psychic powers, those wounds are ignored on a 5+.
This represents the enemy missing due to the confusing interference of the shrouding, and may be taken against all wounds including shooting and close combat wounds, even ones that would normally ignore saves. Saves may not be taken against wounds caused by No Retreat rule, tank shocks, vehicle explosions, dangerous terrain, or other wounds not directly caused by an enemy unit.

It's kinda like FNP, but works on power weapons and similar, but is only a 5+ save, rather than a 4+. It's also better than the nighfight style rules, as this rule always is in effect. I've playtested this and it seems to work pretty well (though I have a penchant for failing any invulnerable saves then making ALL the shrouding ones. That's just luck, though).

DarkLink
09-27-2009, 05:19 PM
Grey Knight Squad……………………..150pts

I kept the statline the same.

Unit Composition: 1 Justicar and 4 Grey Knights

Unit Type: Infantry

Weapons/Rules: Nemesis Force Weapons, Storm Bolters, Grey Knight Special Rules

Up to 5 additional Grey Knights may be taken for +25pts each.

The Justicar may equip:
Meltabombs for +5pts
Psycannon bolts for +5pts
Teleport Homer for +5pts
Targeter for +1pt

He may purchase one psychic powers from the following list:
Hammerhand.....................+10pts
The Scouring.....................+15pts
Holocaust..........................+15pts
Sanctuary..........................+15pts

Two Grey Knights may replace their storm bolters and Nemesis Force Weapons with one of the following weapons:
Incinerator +5pts
Psycannon for +10pts



Psychic powers:
Scouring: Str5 Ap 3 Assault 3
Holocaust: All enemies in 2" of the Psyker take a str 5 ap - hit, armor saves allowed.
Sanctuary: Basically the cover save psychic power from the SM codex
Hammerhand: Doubles base strength but loose power weapon effect for the assault phase. I think this should probably be revised. Maybe grant the user 2d6 armor penetration and +1 str but keep the power weapon effect or something

Lord Anubis
09-28-2009, 07:18 PM
It seems odd, considering how much more they can do, that Grey Knight Terminators would cost so much less than your basic vanilla Terminators. :confused:

I think if you start moving Grey Knights away from being demon-fighters and giving them more "universal" rules, it sort of defeats the whole point of them. They're supposed to be an extremely specialized army. Yes it makes them more complicated to play, but it also is why people play them. No one builds a Grey Knights army dreaming of the day they'll get to use it against the Tau. They're made to fight demons and anything else is just collatteral damage. If their rules work against anything, they're just an uber-unit.

A suggestion, if I may...

While the idea of a single, comprehensive Inquisition list is interesting, it may be easier to approach it one Ordo at a time, beat out all the rough parts, and then move on to the next one once everyone's in agreement. I've found this thread confusing as hell because it keeps leaping back and forth between Grey Knights, Deathwatch, and Witch hunters. It may make sense reading each message as they were posted, but starting on page one... :(

;)

DarkLink
09-29-2009, 11:16 AM
That was the normal Grey Knight unit, in Power armor.Grey Knight terminators are 46 points each to vanilla terminator's 40 pts, and as a Grey Knight player I feel that that is about what they should be (excluding the fact that their special rules don't really work).


Well, one of the reasons GK's aren't exactly popular is because in gameplay they aren't very good.
I feel that either all GK special rules MUST become more generic (aka, not only effecting daemons), or they shouldn't be included in 40k. It is impossible to make a fun, balanced army that is only good against one, single army.

It's easy to use the fluff that GK's have all these special abilities that make them awesome because those abilities are particularly useful against Daemons. Look at shrouding as it is now. It isn't Daemon-specific, yet the reason it exists is because of the peculiarities the Grey Knights have that make them so good against Daemons. There is no reason this can't be done with all the GK special rules.

Look at the version of Rites of Exorcism I mentioned: GK's have offensive and defensive grenades.
Why do the GK's have this ability? Because when they go into battle, the perform rites and use their psychic abilities that make their very presence painful to their enemies. This is very useful against Daemons, and they have this ability because they fight Daemons, but it isn't unreasonable to say that the ability has a similar, if slightly lesser effect, against other enemies. Rites of Exorcism is a direct psychic projection of the Grey Knight's faith and hatred of the foes of the Emperor. It works particularly well against Daemons, but also works against other races (or at least that is how you could justify it).

So there we give the Grey Knights an ability that is easily justifed by the fact that they fight Daemons, and is a good special rule no matter who your playing against.

If you make Grey Knights an anti-Daemons only list in gameplay, no one will play them because they will be horrible against everyone else. That's part of the trap the last codex fell into. If Grey Knight players (an I'm a GK player) want a GOOD codex, then give them rules that work against everybody.

On a side note, I started my GK army because I loved the models, and stuck with them because they were good at everything , shooting, movement and assault. I had gotten tired of playing only assault armies, or only shooty armies, and I don't like not being able to move and still shoot. However, my local gaming group only has a single Daemons player (and two chaos players) out of ten or so people. If my army only works against one of them, I will not play Grey Knights, and am probably not willing to spend the money to buy another 40k army, which means I will pretty much be out of the hobby. I want to have an army that is good against everyone, because having an army that is horrible against every single other army in the game except Daemons isn't fun.

fuzzbuket
09-29-2009, 12:50 PM
2 little ideas i had when reading this are
a) radicials: in the current gk dex if you take pure radicals you are goin to have a LOT of storm troops
so for flavor it cold work like
"radicial inquisitors may have the following as troop choices (and some weid uber wargear.no chamber millita) 0-3 alien mercinaries/0-2 psyker battle squads/ 0-4 daemonhosts.
0-5 storm trooper squads
0+ crazed preachers*
0-3 death cultists (so up to 9) may become troops.
* crazed preacher 5pts
ws] bs]s ]t ]w ]i ]a ]ld]sv
4 3 3 3 1 3 1 5 5+
laspistol, chainsword
1 preacher may become a psyco cardinal gaining +!w,bs,ws,w,+2ld 4+ sv and a bolt pistol and erviscator/power weapon ][ special rules FNP+ rage
b) fixing authorit of blah de emperod da
for every 1000pts of =][= you may take 500pts of IG\SM\BA\DA\BT\SW (or vise-versa)(only 1hq per 1000pts of inducted allies):D

It might work

Fuzzbuket:D


p.s. fix Gk dreads add in dread(must be ven) nemisis+ psycanon (and make it an 0-1)

Lord Anubis
09-29-2009, 12:51 PM
If you make Grey Knights an anti-Daemons only list in gameplay, no one will play them because they will be horrible against everyone else. That's part of the trap the last codex fell into. If Grey Knight players (an I'm a GK player) want a GOOD codex, then give them rules that work against everybody.

Maybe it's just where I am, but I saw no shortage of Grey Knights players in my area. Few of them complained about the Codex. They were a solid army that did okay against most opponents and phenomenally well against the opponents they were designed to fight. I say this as a guy who took my Daemonhunters to two Rogue Traders and had a blast.

Again, it's a specialized army. Always has been, even back when it was just a single unit you could buy. Complaing that a specialized piece of equipment doesn't have a wide range of uses is just... silly. I can't cook a steak in my blender, so does that mean there's something drastically wrong with my blender and it needs a ground-up rebuild? Or does it just mean if I want to cook steak... maybe a blender's not for me?

Just my opinion. :(

DarkLink
09-29-2009, 06:53 PM
First off, I agree it is easiest to seperate out the different Ordos into different threads. I'm a Grey Knight player, and have the most interest in the Grey Knights. Other people may have more of an interest in Sisters of battle or Deathwatch. Seperate them out, and people won't have to wade through as much stuff to get to the actual rules.

Also, the person who starts the post should use their first post as a summary that can be updated as new rules are agreed upon. That makes it quick and easy for everyone to weigh in on the new rules.




Now that that's out of the way...

I'm the only Grey Knight player in my area. Regardless, I bet if you did a survey of all 40k players, Grey Knights (and Dark Eldar) will probably be the least common armies. And if you ask around, people will generally agree that the Daemonhunters Codex is the weakest in the game, though Necrons may have that spot now. (I've had people compliment me for playing Grey Knights, on the basis that they viewed it as a handicap. I don't disagree for the most part. In 5th ed, competitive Grey Knights are something of a one trick pony.)

My point is, there is no reason why we MUST give the Grey Knights bad rules for fluff's sake, when we can easily reconcile fluff and gameplay to get good rules AND good fluff.

Bad rules and good fluff -or- good rules and good fluff?

Easy decision for me. As a Grey Knight player, I want to have a strong army that I can play against anyone without a handicap. So unless you want to redo the points values and give me all those anti-Daemon rules completely for free (so I'm average against everybody and extremely good against Daemons), I'll take the good rules option every single time.

Anyways, this is just my opinion, and I'll explain it a little. I play 40k for the game. I like having a good looking army, and I like the fluff behind 40k, but all that is secondary to playing the game. The fluff and modeling exist, for me, to give the game a third dimension. So if I don't have good rules to play the game with, I won't have fun and won't play. I feel, first and foremost, that every army should have solid gameplay and rules which are backed up by fluff and models. Having good rules against one army but bad rules against every other army isn't much fun if you're a competitive player, especially if the army that you're good against isn't played in your local area.

I just feel that it isn't impossible to have good rules AND good fluff. Give the Grey Knights cool abilities, like Shrouding and Rites of Exorcism (the one I gave as an example, not the current one), then say "well, the Grey Knights have these abilities and all this special equipment because they are an entire chapter of psykers trained to fight Daemons and Daemons are really weak against this ability and so on and so forth."

fuzzbuket
09-30-2009, 09:33 AM
what everyone is saying was addressed in the GK dex
daemons got sustained attack for all the gk fancy rules
other armys could feild daemons
scenarios in which other armys could fight GK
sadly Mr. points and playability forgot this when writing the dex!

perhaps if you played solo knights without allies you couuld get bouneses (stop abuse of rules:D)

sisters are fine but apparently radicials (flangellants+ peintents need redone)

Death watch might need a minidex since there not a huge force xenos should have some nice INQ (ravenor AKA chair of death)

deamonhunters could have peintent engine/ arco flangent type things

Rules for ravenor eisenhorn+ other book inqs in wd

my thoughts:D

fuzzbuket

DarkLink
10-01-2009, 09:55 PM
Melissa just posted some Sisters homebrew, so if sisters are your interest, go and chime in there.

Yeah, in the current Daemonhunters Codex, they have some notes that say something like "We wanted an army that would play well against all armies, and not just against Daemons, because it would be unfair to make Grey Knights pay for abilities that can only be used against Daemons." Then they go and make a codex full of expensive rules designed to fight Daemons, with no effect on other armies. And now those special rules really work.

They pretty much flopped at making a good, balanced codex (though it was plenty fluffy), which is probably why it never got much player support. Trying to make the codex full of Daemon specific rules, then adding in all of the Daemonic allies for other armies to try and balance it out didn't work out at all.

Dunadan
10-03-2009, 01:26 PM
Tested out a Grey Knight teleport attack squad last week. The Shrouding didn't seem to be game breaker, nor did the invul save in close combat (though it did help them kill a carnifex with fewer casualties). Of course, one game is not really enough, so I'll try them again this weekend.

DarkLink
10-04-2009, 12:52 AM
Yeah, I've played a few games using some rules I worked up (including the Shrouding). Though I seem to have an ability to make a remarkable numberof shrouding saves, it seems to balance out pretty well in terms of mathhammer. If you think about it, it is kinda like a mix between Plague Marines and Thousand Son, like a weaker FNP combined with a 5+ Invulnerable save. For the points we pay, and for the points Chaos Cult troops pay, it's pretty well priced.

One game, I charged a SM captain with my Brother captain. The SM captain hit first and caused 3 wounds. I failed all 3 5+ invulnerable saves, then made all 3 5+ shrouding saves. Next turn the Brother Captain was charged by a Dreadnought (I won that previous combat), which caused 3 wounds on the BC. I then once again failed all 3 Invulnerable saves, then passed all 3 shrouding saves. The BC died next turn, but that was cool.

Dunadan
10-04-2009, 07:03 AM
I've been using the other version of shrouding:Reroll shooting wounds against the knights, and they get a 5+ invul in cc.

DarkLink
10-05-2009, 03:26 PM
Oh, right, forgot about that one. I like that idea as well, though having a FNP type save requires less dice-rolling, as you only take it against all wounds that you fail your armor saves for.

Either way, having a Shrouding that affects the actual dice rolls is far better than the current nightfight style rule.