Did Chapterhouse win?

[Nightspawn]

I have heard rumors for the past couple of weeks about Chapterhouse winning against GW. Is this true? I would assume yes because of the new pieces being produced by Chapterhouse.

Anyone have news to this effect?

[eldargal]

The case is ongoing, no one has won yet.

[lattd]

It's not even in court, neither side has put forward clear evidence so far so no one is even close to winning.

[Luke Licens]

Honestly, I expect the litigation to go on for the better part of a decade, and bankrupt Chapterhouse before it ends. But that's just my cynicism talking.

[calltoarms]

Litigation can indeed take a long time, especially in the civil and IP (intelectual property) arena. That said, wasn't chapterhouse represented by probono council?

[TheBitzBarn]

They will only work Pro Bono for so many Hours

[MC Tic Tac]

Not started yet.

If by some inconceivable and stupid miracle that CS win it would be all over the net in seconds.

[Nickkapalo]

It certainly would take a miracle for them to win

[Gut40k]

Maybe this will be good for all of us in the end.. Then again....

[Dlatrex]

Which pieces specifically dose the legal trouble concern?

[Psychosplodge]

More or less everything I think with how they originally were advertising it....

[unique-dragon]

since GW released it's Thunderwolves and Tervigons, i might think the case is closed, but we just don't know the outcome (yet)?

[karlthepagan]

Which pieces specifically dose the legal trouble concern?

Any use of GW trademarked terms like "Space Marine" or "Salamanders" in the context of science-fiction wargaming.

[bethor]

I just got one of their conversion beamers. Lawsuit or not, they makes some quality conversion bits.

[Wizzardx3]

I'm a supporter of competition and I wish them luck, but their wares don't overly impress me.

[Arch_Bishop]

They make great stuff, but they really put their foot in it when they used GW names to advertise their wares.

Why not just use a generic name to advertise bits? Everyone else does. Apart from trying to move up in search results, I can't see why they would risk it.

Also, no retailer would ever touch their line, in fear of what may end up happening after the lawsuit. I don't believe they are trying to do retail deals at present, but I've noticed that no distributors seem to carry Chapter House products. This is pure speculation btw, as I don't know the internal working of CH.

Such a shame too, as they do make some great products that would sell so well, especially in a store where people can purchase GW products too.

"Need a combi bolter for that sergeant? Well here it is."

"I see you are buying a Razorback, how about a magnetized turret?"

Bad form...

[Denzark]

The judge should instruct them to co-operate on the building of a Thunder Dome.

Then...

2 men in, 1 man out!

[Morgan Darkstar]

The judge should instruct them to co-operate on the building of a Thunder Dome.

Then...

2 men in, 1 man out!

Two men enter one man leaves! :P

[Sethimath]

yea...the litigation will likely take to much of CH's money eventually when the probono from the Law firm ends.

[BHound1981]

I applaud CH for trying to dig their heels into the dirt a bit... I hope GW realizes its d-baggery regardless of the outcome. Oh wait, I forgot who I was talking about for a second.

[demonllamma]

Also, no retailer would ever touch their line, in fear of what may end up happening after the lawsuit. I don't believe they are trying to do retail deals at present, but I've noticed that no distributors seem to carry Chapter House products.

They seem to be out of stock quite often. I'm not sure that means they are selling out as soon as stuff gets in or that they aren't making enough on some things to keep them in stock. I am doubtful that they have the stock to be able to use the standard supply chains in place.

I'm not the world's biggest CH fan. I think that many of their products have been good in theory but not executed to the standard I would like. The best example I can think of is their combi weapon kits. A great idea that ended up looking rather mediocre IMO. They don't look terrible, but I'd rather convert my own. Similarly, their true scale kit just doesn't quite do it for me. That being said, they do make some very nice stuff in the more traditional 3rd party product area (there are some rhino doors in particular that I really like).

[Kataklysm]

am I the only person that thinks that chapter house products are crap? nothing they have produce, has ever interested me. personally I think it all looks like press molded crap. sorry if I am offending anybodies personal view of the company. no, I am not the biggest gw fan in the world either for some of their policies, but at least most of their models are masterfully sculpted.

Just my two pence.
-kataklysm

[Night System]

am I the only person that thinks that chapter house products are crap? nothing they have produce, has ever interested me. personally I think it all looks like press molded crap. sorry if I am offending anybodies personal view of the company. no, I am not the biggest gw fan in the world either for some of their policies, but at least most of their models are masterfully sculpted.

Just my two pence.
-kataklysm

But then for every view like yours, there is one like mine who personally loves Chapterhouse Studios and would be sad to see them go under.

[The Shadow King]

To be honest, I hope Chapterhouse lose and go under. They're just taking the mick and deserve to go bust.

[lattd]

Ive never been amazed by their products, but then i believe third party products discourage conversion which is a big part of what i love about the hobby.

[ozybonza]

I think there's really nothing wrong with most of CH's stuff as it either requires a GW model to be used (like the RB turrets) or it's a model that doesn't have an equivalent GW product (like the tervigon + wolves, although that has obviously changed).

So most of the stuff isn't even in direct competition with GW - it's to be used in conjunction with GW minis.

[Arleucs]

Kinda agree with this one;
not a replacement, more like an addition to GW stuff.

The point that worries me though is GW's Attorney; I have occasions to work with them from times to times, and they're especially good in the field of IP...

[Martino]

I am all for an "after market" accessory company for wargames. I don't believe they should be able to sell a complete Doom of Malantai however.

They currently produce eldar, imperial guard, marines, and tyranid items. I own all of these armies and have items from chapterhouse in each army. Every tournament i bring them to people ask me, "where did you get that?" They are great additions and provide excellent conversion pieces.

[KJD]

I say the rule of 'you snooze... You lose'

Gw should be able to produce these products in a timely matter. They should also add the customization packs with different heads etc...

[Martino]

If you have not seen their spartan marine heads, you are missing out!

[Rift Knight]

As to the quality of CH stuff not bad for a fairly new company, compare early Citadel minis to CH. Give CH 20 years and see what they look like then compared to GW's now then let's talk.

[lattd]

As to the quality of CH stuff not bad for a fairly new company, compare early Citadel minis to CH. Give CH 20 years and see what they look like then compared to GW's now then let's talk.

Poor analogy when all they have had to do its copy the basic design GW has developed over the last 20 years. If you do not have to design anything but the elaborate parts then it should be good.

[ComradePenguin]

Poor analogy when all they have had to do its copy the basic design GW has developed over the last 20 years. If you do not have to design anything but the elaborate parts then it should be good.

Agreed, Chapterhouse has stolen designs for almost all of their products from GW. Look no further than their latest eldar creations, they made no attempt to differentiate themselves from GW.

It's a shame that some of their original and custom pieces are quite nice. I personally own the ymagrl heads and would consider getting their cool looking spore pods. But it's CHs arrogance that will be their downfall. Sorry you can't use other company's designs and names for your products and flagrantly post it all over the net.

[lattd]

Even if they hadn't blatantly copied some things, creating third party parts for an existing game is easier because they already have a base model to work off. As such they don't have to spend so much time getting the look right as they know how it should look and what the proportions etc are.

[acb16]

i'm in 2 minds over this
yes it appears that CH have been a bit naughty with there descriptions of there products and do some good products
but why should GW have the monopoly on an area of the hobby and be able to charge what they feel

if anything i hope that this keeps GW on there toes

[lattd]

i'm in 2 minds over this
yes it appears that CH have been a bit naughty with there descriptions of there products and do some good products
but why should GW have the monopoly on an area of the hobby and be able to charge what they feel

if anything i hope that this keeps GW on there toes

Because they designed this specific product?

Its like asking why Apple should have a monopoly on smart phones, because they did it first and did it best and they continue to keep pushing what they can do.

[Rissan4ever]

i'm in 2 minds over this
yes it appears that CH have been a bit naughty with there descriptions of there products and do some good products
but why should GW have the monopoly on an area of the hobby and be able to charge what they feel

if anything i hope that this keeps GW on there toes

GW owns the trademarks and copyrights on their products. Other people do not have the right to use those trademarked and copyrighted materials to make money without permission. It's pretty simple, really.

There are several companies that make GW compatible products under generic names like "space legionaires," "armored warriors," etc. Chapter House made the rather foolish mistake of directly using GW's names on their products. I don't think they have a good chance of winning this, and I don't think they should.

[gendoikari87]

GW owns the trademarks and copyrights on their products. Other people do not have the right to use those trademarked and copyrighted materials to make money without permission. It's pretty simple, really.

There are several companies that make GW compatible products under generic names like "space legionaires," "armored warriors," etc. Chapter House made the rather foolish mistake of directly using GW's names on their products. I don't think they have a good chance of winning this, and I don't think they should.

well now they are using terms like "compatible with...". Also a good deal of the terms GW was suing over GW doesn't actually own. Like space marine, eldar, and a few others.

[gendoikari87]

Because they designed this specific product?

Its like asking why Apple should have a monopoly on smart phones, because they did it first and did it best and they continue to keep pushing what they can do.

yes but apples not the only one making smart phones, and android is better.

[Yriel_The_Angelic]

Why didn't CH change the names of their peeps when us all here in da community told them too... *Facepalm*

Tl;DR? Don't know what this case is about here's a short version of what transpired.

CH:We won't change names of our peeps cause we cool and have a legal loophole thingy
Us:Dude.....that new tau support thingy looks like a tau....and you're calling it a tau vehicle..*scrolls around* and it says here "To be used with 40k"...you're gonna get sued.
CH:nah-uh!!!
GW:O RLY!!!
-Lawsuit-

[somnicide]

actually, I think that they have a pretty decent argument with the fact that they are providing after market modifications for a specific product. That has been settled in the US for a while, in particular with car parts. You can buy something for a Toyota Rav4 that can be advertised as such.

[darthslowe]

Honestly, the legal precedents set in the United States up to now are highly favorable for Chapterhouse Studios. As posted by somnicide their kits that provide after market "modifications" are pretty much rock solid legally. It's when things like their new "True Scale" Grey Knight knock-offs are considered that they are in trouble. When you can buy a single kit that is an almost direct copy of someone else's kit there's going to be trouble.

[thingol]

It would be a shame to see them go, particularly when most of what they make isn't available from GW directly. It would be amusing if chapterhouse somehow became a subsidiary of GW, or GW simply bought them to make them go away.

[Kazwulf]

From the recent forays Chapterhouse has made into 'Truescale' models, one can assume they have engaged legal representation who may be using new releases as a ploy, or in some way, challenge Games Workshop legal.

As I noted in a previous posts here and elsewhere, the new 'Truescale' kits from Chapterhouse get into the fuzzy legal area within the "aftermarket modifications" precedent. Whereas, you have a company producing kits that replace the vast majority of the existing content of a object they are modifying. In effect, mimicking the copyrighted object.

This has been taken up in court before, I could dig up the cases, but I am at work now. But, from memory: various 'kit' cars produced by companies to mimic major autos, e.g. Lotus, Porsche, older model Mustangs, various Ford kits, Skylines, and Shelby Cobra kits, just to name a few.

If memory serves, most of these have still fallen within the same precedent for aftermarket modification, but those are older rulings. Who knows nowadays with copyright law ... its a god forsaken shambles. I would hope that the percentage of the model remaining uniquely identifiable as within the Games Workshop aesthetic, i.e. beaky helmets, backpacks, some other helmets, and armour features, but not included within the 'Truescale' kits, would protect them from most legal arguments to the contrary.

Again, this is why these things have to go to court to be decided ... I highly doubt a settlement will come of this. Games Workshop doesn't have much standing for a portion of their argument, but they still have to pursue it vigorously to save face and maintain the copyright masquerade.

[Psychosplodge]

Because they designed this specific product?

Its like asking why Apple should have a monopoly on smart phones, because they did it first and did it best and they continue to keep pushing what they can do.

*cough* IBM Simon *cough*

and by best you mean most limited and over hyped?

Apple actually came quite late to the market.

[p00zer]

their imperial jetbikes are pretty cool, and probably quite angering to GW.

[lattd]

True apple were late, maybe over hyped but my ipod works better than my android phone and my laptop, although the tablet market would have been a better analogy.

[Meowcenary]

I really like the work the CH does, especially the new "lightning claws" they just released. Too bad GW has to try and take aftermarket producers to task over IP. =(

[Sindamar]

Sounds like an unpleasant situation from every direction:
GW have to defend their IP or drown under knock-offs/ lose protection in some legal jurisdictions. Which could jeopardise the company (in the long term), and those people whose jobs rely on it...
So they have to go and take on the small firm and look like a bunch of bullies.
Chapterhouse could end up right royally stuffed because they weren't vague enough... But they have to defend their position or be definitely in trouble.
And until its over, no-one really knows who's going to win, and what the consequences will be.
Except that, if we're really lucky, when the dust settles we might have a slightly clearer idea of where the legal boundaries are in this field... 'Cos it's looking pretty murky right now :confused:

[victorpofa]

GW has made many mistakes with this lawsuit including the claim that Chapterhouse made Thunderwolf Cavalry. Chapterhouse are just about the only ones who have not made them. :p

[The Ghost]

I certainly hope Chapterhouse wins this case. Don't get me wrong I don't approve of stealing other people's copyrighted material; however, Chapterhouse winning this case is a much better outcome than them losing this case. For example if Chapterhouse loses this case it will work like a domino effect where many other third party model manufactures who target Warhammer players might shut down their sites for fear of legal trouble. This will decrease the available models to us. As far as I'm concerned more choices is better.

[Narceron]

Chapterhouse getting bad reviews online is doing more damage to them than GW, imho.

[gruubii]

Yeah, Customer Service should be a higher concern for the long run.

[will44]

I certainly hope Chapterhouse wins this case. Don't get me wrong I don't approve of stealing other people's copyrighted material; however, Chapterhouse winning this case is a much better outcome than them losing this case. For example if Chapterhouse loses this case it will work like a domino effect where many other third party model manufactures who target Warhammer players might shut down their sites for fear of legal trouble. This will decrease the available models to us. As far as I'm concerned more choices is better.

I also would like to see GW lose to some degree here. They've definitely become complacent in the industry. I think a smack of reality will help the community more than any company. I mean, GW claimes they invented table top wargaming, and that they own the intellectual property of stuff they haven't actually created yet. Come on!

[Dyrnwyn]

Which pieces specifically dose the legal trouble concern?

Part of the reason it is taking so long is GW has claimed Chapterhouse's entire range is infringing, but refuse to provide the works they are supposedly copied from. It's also demanded that Chapterhouse disclose any and all sources of inspiration and all GW works they 'had access to' when making their models. Chapterhouse's defense is refusing based on the fact that they can't provide a comprehensive list of every single sci-fi and fantasy movie, book, game or image that the sculptors have seen over their entire lives, and any omission in the list would lead to GW's lawyers pouncing all over it because it's technically incorrect.

I'm not a legal expert, but Warseer has had a couple lawyers roaming the two threads(T1 (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?291945-Winston-amp-Strawn-LLP-to-Represent-Chapterhouse-Studios-LLC-in-Games-Workshop-vs-CHS) and T2 (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?321832-Context-around-Chapterhouse-Vs-GW-case-including-IP-law-similar-cases-and-histories)) about the case. As I have been made to understand it, CH actually has the better case, but despite the fact that GW's briefs look to be put together by muppet committee, they've still stalled and held up the factfinding phase like champs. If CH hadn't gotten pro bono council, they'd probably be well into the red.

EDIT: Derp. Didn't notice this thread had more than one page.

In any case, GW's lawsuit looks like corporate bullying intended to harass and destroy CH via money bleed rather than win in a straight out court case. GW's briefs look like a blooper reel, with such gems as claiming to own trademarks on skulls and Roman numerals. I genuinely want CH to win this.

[Koineboy]

Considering the rumor is that GW legal inadvertently transferred their color names' ownership to their paint supplier necessitating the range change (see Dakka) then there's no wonder their legal team has written horrible briefs.

[XionXxen]

So we are all going to have to learn new names because someone messed up? D'oh

[lattd]

Thats because lawyer bullying is a viable tactic in america, and one americans love to try and used in the UK but it is not a possible tactic in England.

[kingsfan2099]

A little healthy competition is good. I've heard proponents for and against CH and I'm sure both sides have some merit but the way I look at it is that the more options people have the better and the better the quality becomes. I've heard the argument of 3rd party cutting into the customizing and hobbying but I disagree as it can bring inspiration and puts bitz on the market previously unavailable. Competition also forces GW to not string out model releases over 2 years and instead will need to release models in an acceptable time frame so as not to lose sales to 3rd parties who will get the models out quickly.

[inquisitorsog]

A little healthy competition is good. I've heard proponents for and against CH and I'm sure both sides have some merit but the way I look at it is that the more options people have the better and the better the quality becomes. I've heard the argument of 3rd party cutting into the customizing and hobbying but I disagree as it can bring inspiration and puts bitz on the market previously unavailable. Competition also forces GW to not string out model releases over 2 years and instead will need to release models in an acceptable time frame so as not to lose sales to 3rd parties who will get the models out quickly.

Agreed. Companies without competition get lazy.

[Kawauso]

Agreed. Companies without competition get lazy.

For reference, see telecomm companies in North America - Canada, especially. :P

[amrogers3]

I personally really like the idea of third party conversion items. I wish there were more companies out there making them. I don't see why CH can't change the names of the their items. That is the reason for the litigation correct?

[Nightspawn]

It is the problem. But instaed of GW embracing the idea of other companys making things to support their company, they just want as much money they can get for anything having to do with the products they put out. Big company/small minds.

[gcsmith]

It is the problem. But instaed of GW embracing the idea of other companys making things to support their company, they just want as much money they can get for anything having to do with the products they put out. Big company/small minds.

This is how it works.
Gamesworkshop own the Warhammer industry since it is their product and universe. Chapterhouse are making products to profit off of GW hard work, Gamesworkshop rightly get mad and sue their *** into the ground, Most likely as they have handled before, after they have politely asked the company to take their products down.

Think of the xbox industry every game made for xbox needs to pay microsoft royalties, I agree there should be more conversion bits, but GW should be payed for it. they created the business afterall.

[woodenronin]

Is the space marine concept 25 years old or older? If so, can it become a public domain? That is what happened to the AR-15 assault rifle. Now everybody can make them. I don't even know if that is relevant in this case. But that is a question I was having.

[gendoikari87]

Is the space marine concept 25 years old or older? If so, can it become a public domain? That is what happened to the AR-15 assault rifle. Now everybody can make them. I don't even know if that is relevant in this case. But that is a question I was having.

Yes, and GW didn't even coin the term.


The first space marine unit, the Galactic Marines, was used in E. E. Smith's Lensman series, published starting in 1937.[citation needed], but the lesser known Bob Olsen (1884-1956) also wrote a few stories and novelettes about Space Marines in Amazing Stories ("Captain Brink of the Space Marines", November 1932; "The Space Marines and the Slavers", December 1936).

[gendoikari87]

This is how it works.
Gamesworkshop own the Warhammer industry since it is their product and universe. Chapterhouse are making products to profit off of GW hard work, Gamesworkshop rightly get mad and sue their *** into the ground, Most likely as they have handled before, after they have politely asked the company to take their products down.

Think of the xbox industry every game made for xbox needs to pay microsoft royalties, I agree there should be more conversion bits, but GW should be payed for it. they created the business afterall.

Okay I guess GW needs to start shelling out to wizards of the coast then.... and wizards of the coast needs to start shelling out to the Tolkien estate.

You can't sue because someone used your IP as inspiration for something they did. Copies? yeah sure, inspiration? hell no.

Edit: oh and the Tolkien estate needs to start shelling out to the thousands of old folklore from which LOTR was derived.

[faeslayer]

Okay I guess GW needs to start shelling out to wizards of the coast then.... and wizards of the coast needs to start shelling out to the Tolkien estate.

You can't sue because someone used your IP as inspiration for something they did. Copies? yeah sure, inspiration? hell no.

Edit: oh and the Tolkien estate needs to start shelling out to the thousands of old folklore from which LOTR was derived.

I believe they're suing for actual copies, as in Tyranid creatures/names and chapter names, as well as specific designs (all of which has since been purged from their site). I may be wrong.

Other bits manufacturers don't have this problem, even though the inspiration is clearly there.

[Dyrnwyn]

I personally really like the idea of third party conversion items. I wish there were more companies out there making them. I don't see why CH can't change the names of the their items. That is the reason for the litigation correct?

Not quite. Part of the initial suit was about CHS using GW trademarks in their website - they amended the website before this even went to court. The part that is holding up the case is that GW ALSO asserts that CHS violates other trademarks and copyright as well, but has not, to date, provided examples of any of the works that are supposedly copied. in fact, when asked to provide copies of the models in question, GW attached a bizarre, overlong summation of the 40k universe and some of the equipment in it, without a so much as a picture of a model, much less an actual model. Additionally, they have gone so far as to claim they own the trademark on things like wings, swords, roman numerals, lions, griffins, scale patterns, overlapping or banded armor, and skulls.

Also, they have asked CHS to provide a comprehensive list of ever piece of literature, movie, model, and comic that served as inspiration for CHS's items. CHS's defense has objected on the grounds that asking for a complete list of every piece of fiction processed in several lifetimes is unreasonable and needlessly limiting to the independent creation defense.

In the case of the Tervigon, CHS even owns the trademark on it, as GW did not register the trademark (like they should have right before or immediately after the codex was released.), and CHS was the first to release a product under that name



This is how it works.
Gamesworkshop own the Warhammer industry since it is their product and universe. Chapterhouse are making products to profit off of GW hard work, Gamesworkshop rightly get mad and sue their *** into the ground, Most likely as they have handled before, after they have politely asked the company to take their products down.

Think of the xbox industry every game made for xbox needs to pay microsoft royalties, I agree there should be more conversion bits, but GW should be payed for it. they created the business afterall.
To throw up a comparison that has been made before - are non-official car part manufacuters wrong because the profit off of the existence of major car companies like Ford and Honda? They don't pay royalties to those companies.

[Hive777]

It's an interesting issue. Are the briefs in this case posted anywhere online?

[Inquiring M1nd]

There's this that I've found: http://www.mediafire.com/?ralq48ow8dr5do1

It's a PDF of the complaint.

And this was posted to the blog a while back, useful only if you have access to the PACER system.

http://dockets.justia.com/docket/illinois/ilndce/1:2010cv08103/250791/

I found some of the information in there to be interesting outside of the case itself, such as the region I live being the largest U.S. selling market with the most stores. Also, the curiously warm fuzzy feeling of knowing the description of the 40K fluff has been officially entered into the Illinois court records.

[Hive777]

I was hoping to avoid using PACER, as I'd rather not pay for the documents if I want to download them. But I did get the complaint--thanks for the links.

[Kawauso]

Is the space marine concept 25 years old or older? If so, can it become a public domain? That is what happened to the AR-15 assault rifle. Now everybody can make them. I don't even know if that is relevant in this case. But that is a question I was having.

You know that's not true if a patent/copyright is being kept up-to-date, right?

Also, you can't trademark or copyright the notion of a 'space marine'.

And finally, 40k didn't come up with it. They're at least as old as Starship Troopers (the book, not the movie).

[gcsmith]

Not quite. Part of the initial suit was about CHS using GW trademarks in their website - they amended the website before this even went to court. The part that is holding up the case is that GW ALSO asserts that CHS violates other trademarks and copyright as well, but has not, to date, provided examples of any of the works that are supposedly copied. in fact, when asked to provide copies of the models in question, GW attached a bizarre, overlong summation of the 40k universe and some of the equipment in it, without a so much as a picture of a model, much less an actual model. Additionally, they have gone so far as to claim they own the trademark on things like wings, swords, roman numerals, lions, griffins, scale patterns, overlapping or banded armor, and skulls.

Also, they have asked CHS to provide a comprehensive list of ever piece of literature, movie, model, and comic that served as inspiration for CHS's items. CHS's defense has objected on the grounds that asking for a complete list of every piece of fiction processed in several lifetimes is unreasonable and needlessly limiting to the independent creation defense.

In the case of the Tervigon, CHS even owns the trademark on it, as GW did not register the trademark (like they should have right before or immediately after the codex was released.), and CHS was the first to release a product under that name

Wrong In britain the trademark is owned by the existane of rules for it, not the model


To throw up a comparison that has been made before - are non-official car part manufacuters wrong because the profit off of the existence of major car companies like Ford and Honda? They don't pay royalties to those companies.

Yes it is wrong if the intention was to piggy back off the other companies reputation, which is what is happeneing in the case of CHS, especially with creating models for various SPecial cahracter and then claiming they own the copy right,

[DarkLink]

Okay I guess GW needs to start shelling out to wizards of the coast then

I think you mean Frank Herbert. For 40k, at least.



You can't sue because someone used your IP as inspiration for something they did. Copies? yeah sure, inspiration? hell no.


You actually thing that chapterhouse was just "inspired by"? The only way it could have been more blatantly copying GW's work is if they took molds of GW's actual models and reproduced them.

[Dyrnwyn]

Wrong In britain the trademark is owned by the existane of rules for it, not the model
The suit is filed in a US court, under US law. I don't pretend to be a massive expert on copyright and trademark law, most of my information is gleaned from brief research and the word of the ACTUAL lawyers prowling the Warseer threads. That said, a trademark isn't generated by writing about something - a trademark is generated by selling something under a particular name or mark, or registering it. That name or mark is an unregistered trademark if you are the first to sell something under that mark, or you can register a mark in advance of making a product, to insure that the name is not taken while you develop/produce the product. The longer you go between registering a mark and selling a product, the better case another company has to challenge the mark. A year or less is not in the easily challenged range though.

Chapterhouse WAS in the wrong by selling 'Space Marine Shoulderpads' instead of "Shoulderpads compatible with Games Workshop's Space Marines (TM)," but that issue was voluntarily resolved by Chapterhouse after GW contacted them.


Yes it is wrong if the intention was to piggy back off the other companies reputation, which is what is happeneing in the case of CHS, especially with creating models for various SPecial cahracter and then claiming they own the copy right, [/B]
I'm not sure you quite understand what copyright is. Copyright is the right to control copies of your works. Copies is the relevant word there. If CHS took say, an existing Eldar warlock model, cast, reproduced and sold it, it would be a clear violation of copyright law. If they added square horns to the model and sold it, then they would only own the copyright to the horns, as it would be a derivative work, and GW would be able to shut them down. A newly sculpted model that is based on an existing style is not a copy, and its status as a derivative work is questionable at best.

EDIT: Furthermore, from the automotive industry, we have must fit and must match requirements - for instance a door intended to work with an existing vehicle has to both fit the mounting points, and match the appearance of the part it replaces. Similarly, an argument can be made that if a Rhino door in a conversion kit is meant to replace a Rhino door in a GW model, it's going to look similar.

[gendoikari87]

I think you mean Frank Herbert. For 40k, at least.



You actually thing that chapterhouse was just "inspired by"? The only way it could have been more blatantly copying GW's work is if they took molds of GW's actual models and reproduced them.

Doesn't matter, they weren't copies, they were original works. Perhaps based/inspired by on 40k but they were still original works. Similarities don't count. As for the names, what they have up NOW, nothing they're using is copyrighted, I can't speak for what they had before they took everything down, but everything they have NOW is legit.

[Psychosplodge]

You actually thing that chapterhouse was just "inspired by"? The only way it could have been more blatantly copying GW's work is if they took molds of GW's actual models and reproduced them.

Some of them look like they have been cast from than tweaked... *cough* jet bike *cough*




EDIT: Furthermore, from the automotive industry, we have must fit and must match requirements - for instance a door intended to work with an existing vehicle has to both fit the mounting points, and match the appearance of the part it replaces. Similarly, an argument can be made that if a Rhino door in a conversion kit is meant to replace a Rhino door in a GW model, it's going to look similar.

I thought the automative industry generally "released" the copyright on things like brake pads, shocks, filters etc, because whos going to buy a car where you can only buy the spares from the dealer?


Doesn't matter, they weren't copies, they were original works. Perhaps based/inspired by on 40k but they were still original works. Similarities don't count. As for the names, what they have up NOW, nothing they're using is copyrighted, I can't speak for what they had before they took everything down, but everything they have NOW is legit.

I think they basically got greedy, if they'd stuck to selling symbols, armour plates, head and weapon swaps and been careful with naming what could anybody have said? I mean personally I love the look of the kit they sell for the chibi-hawk.

[statecircus]

By IP law in the UK, things look in favour of CH.
Will probably end in out of court settlement. GW delayed Thunderwolves and Tervigon due to being at risk of infringing on CH....

[lattd]

By IP law in the UK, things look in favour of CH.
Will probably end in out of court settlement. GW delayed Thunderwolves and Tervigon due to being at risk of infringing on CH....

By IP law in England and Wales GW, would be laughing there way to the bank, as discussed in the case of interlego. But GW have been rather strange about this.

[an anonymous artist]

I'll say this much regarding this. GW is grasping at straws at this point. I had done some concept art for CHS and it was subpoenaed along with all of my e-mail. The kicker.. The stuff I designed is not even available yet. When I was first contacted by GW's lawyers they tried to BS me. They went after EVERY artist that created anything for CHS and thankfully the guys at Winston offered pro bono coverage on this. I know Nick pretty well and I don't think he'd BS me about the direction things are going and he's pretty confident at this point.
They have taken a few items out of circulation and when they re-did the webpage they had a list of guidelines of what could and could not be said and what they had to post for legal purposes.

Past that part.. in my own opinion, GW has not come up with a single original idea in the way of 40k. They take existing popular sci-fi themes, create an army around it and just slap some generic (sometimes laughable) back story on it. The only reason a lot of fans think it's cool is because they're wrapped up in the hype. If you step back and take a look, every single thing they have is based on pre-existing stories.. When I was asked to create concept art for figures, I did not go "oh gee.. lemme see if I can just re-do the GW stuff". I took the general idea of what the concept was originally about before GW got it, then from there I applied my take on what it would look like in a sci-fi/steampunk setting with the appropriate level of grit.

[an anonymous artist]

Oh, I also thought I would mention.. When I was told who all was being called in as witnesses as to what is or is not considered "popular" sci-fi.. the list included a lot of really popular and well-known people. Off the top of my head though, Andy Chambers is the only name that I can remember. I can't remember if anyone from Lucasfilms was called but it seems like it was mentioned.

[Morgan Darkstar]

Wait..........I think i can smell somthing?......"sniffs" ....... oh yes!....... its BS I can smell.

[an anonymous artist]

Wait..........I think i can smell somthing?......"sniffs" ....... oh yes!....... its BS I can smell.

You can believe it or don't, I don't care. My name is on public record and there's a good chance I'm at the very least going to have to go in for a deposition. I was also in the process of sculpting my first piece when they issued the subpoena.. and out of fear of them dragging me through crap I can't go through due to family I've had to put that on hold.

[eldargal]

GW took inspiration from many sources but turned it into something truly unique. People think it is 'cool' because it is one of the most compelling sci-fi universes out there, not because of hype or whatever other nonsense you tell yourself.


I'll say this much regarding this. GW is grasping at straws at this point. I had done some concept art for CHS and it was subpoenaed along with all of my e-mail. The kicker.. The stuff I designed is not even available yet. When I was first contacted by GW's lawyers they tried to BS me. They went after EVERY artist that created anything for CHS and thankfully the guys at Winston offered pro bono coverage on this. I know Nick pretty well and I don't think he'd BS me about the direction things are going and he's pretty confident at this point.
They have taken a few items out of circulation and when they re-did the webpage they had a list of guidelines of what could and could not be said and what they had to post for legal purposes.

Past that part.. in my own opinion, GW has not come up with a single original idea in the way of 40k. They take existing popular sci-fi themes, create an army around it and just slap some generic (sometimes laughable) back story on it. The only reason a lot of fans think it's cool is because they're wrapped up in the hype. If you step back and take a look, every single thing they have is based on pre-existing stories.. When I was asked to create concept art for figures, I did not go "oh gee.. lemme see if I can just re-do the GW stuff". I took the general idea of what the concept was originally about before GW got it, then from there I applied my take on what it would look like in a sci-fi/steampunk setting with the appropriate level of grit.

[Aldramelech]

There are so many fanboys here it really makes my eye's water to read some of this. Anybody who even slightly sticks up for CH gets shouted down.

IMO GW are taking the piss and I hope they lose......................

[eldargal]

Well a lot of the CHS people are just as bad. I mean I support CHS to some extent but I do think there probably is a case to answer. Regardless if it were as black and white as people in this thread said the court case would be over by now. Fact is this is quite a grey area of the law and it could go either way.

[gendoikari87]

GW took inspiration from many sources but turned it into something truly unique. People think it is 'cool' because it is one of the most compelling sci-fi universes out there, not because of hype or whatever other nonsense you tell yourself.

Yeah, I actually like that aliens can fight robots or the grey's, the imperium however, you have to hand it to GW is fairly original, even if the idea of the space marine was not.

Besides know where we'd be if you couldn't borrow inspiration or plot from other sources? we'd have like a handful of movies ever made if that, and something like the same number for books.

[Morgan Darkstar]

Maybe i should have been more clear?

i do not beleve any witnesses have been called in this case "outside of the companies involved" I could be wrong tho.

here is a breakdown of the case so far

http://ia600405.us.archive.org/18/items/gov.uscourts.ilnd.250791/gov.uscourts.ilnd.250791.docket.html

looks to me like Chapterhouse "or there representatives" have been dragging their heels a bit

More info here

http://archive.org/details/gov.uscourts.ilnd.250791

[Flammenwerfer13]

Maybe i should have been more clear?

i do not beleve any witnesses have been called in this case "outside of the companies involved" I could be wrong tho.

here is a breakdown of the case so far

http://ia600405.us.archive.org/18/items/gov.uscourts.ilnd.250791/gov.uscourts.ilnd.250791.docket.html

looks to me like Chapterhouse "or there representatives" have been dragging their heels a bit

More info here

http://archive.org/details/gov.uscourts.ilnd.250791

Seems GW is just as bad:

http://ia600405.us.archive.org/18/items/gov.uscourts.ilnd.250791/gov.uscourts.ilnd.250791.141.2.pdf

It's a legal tactic that is commonly used, so don't read much into it.
Looking through both links, GW really doesn't have much to stand on.

[Dyrnwyn]

Maybe i should have been more clear?

i do not beleve any witnesses have been called in this case "outside of the companies involved" I could be wrong tho.

here is a breakdown of the case so far

http://ia600405.us.archive.org/18/items/gov.uscourts.ilnd.250791/gov.uscourts.ilnd.250791.docket.html

looks to me like Chapterhouse "or there representatives" have been dragging their heels a bit

More info here

http://archive.org/details/gov.uscourts.ilnd.250791

Honestly, it looks like lawyer sniping back and forth.
GW: They are copying us!
CHS:We admit nothing. Produce what we have supposedly copied.
GW: Look at this stuff, we have a whole universe you've copied from. Here's a selection.
CHS: You didn't provide any physical models that our models are supposedly copied from.
GW: Your motions keep coming through improperly, we shouldn't have to follow them.
CHS: You don't own US copyright on some of this stuff.
GW We own copyright on everything we create! Disclose what you got your inspiration from if you're saying you made these independently.
CHS: What? We can't list every single influence our artists have - that's multiple lifetimes of consumed media, and frankly ridiculous. How about you produce the exact works we're supposed to have copied and we compare them side by side like we are supposed to?
GW: We were totally going to do that anyway, but you keep sending us your requests improperly.
CHS and GW: Judge! They're not cooperatiiiiinnngg!

Both sides are causing this to drag out - GW because of overbroad discovery questions, stonewalling CHS requests and refusal to list thier claims as : CHS model A violates copyright on GW model B. CHS because it is completely stonewalling almost all claims and requests that GW makes.

[Flammenwerfer13]

http://ia600405.us.archive.org/18/items/gov.uscourts.ilnd.250791/gov.uscourts.ilnd.250791.143.0.pdf


2. Obviously, Games Workshop, as plaintiff in this action, has every incentive to
complete discovery as quickly as possible so that it can move to summary judgment and, if
necessary, trial. It is Chapterhouse that has the incentive to delay (in attainment of which it is
evidently content to have the Court declare a pox on both houses), and despite its pleas of being
a small entity, it is represented by a team of some half dozen lawyers or more at a major firm,
whereas Games Workshop has essentially only two lawyers working on the case.

Interesting.

Look at this:
http://ia600405.us.archive.org/18/items/gov.uscourts.ilnd.250791/gov.uscourts.ilnd.250791.182.2.pdf


Regarding the depositions of Plaintiff’s witness, Defendant is entitled to seven hours with each witness and you are not entitled to
unilaterally rewrite the Federal Rules a day each. Based upon the availability you have confirmed, we will
proceed with the following depositions:

Monday, March 5: Neil Hodgson in Chicago
Tuesday, March 6: Dave Gallagher in Chicago
Wednesday, March 7: Allan Merret in Chicago
Thursday, March 8: Jes Goodwin in Chicago
Friday, March 9: Gill Stevenson in Chicago
Monday, March 12: John Blanche telephonically
Monday, March 12: Andy Jones in Chicago




Also anyone wants to read the arguement by GW here it is:

http://ia600405.us.archive.org/18/items/gov.uscourts.ilnd.250791/gov.uscourts.ilnd.250791.147.0.pdf

Some great tid bits in there like:


with annual sales in this country alone of
approximately $40 million,

25. The area in and around Chicago, Illinois is one of the most active for Games
Workshop, being part of the single largest selling market in the United States; being home to the
AdeptiCon, the largest independent convention for miniature wargaming hobbyists in the country
(at which the WARHAMMER and WARHAMMER 40,000 games are featured), and the site
selected by Games Workshop for its 2011 Games Day Convention (which attracted thousands of
fans of the WARHAMMER and WARHAMMER 40,000 games at the Donald E. Stephens
Convention Center).

28. Games Workshop also has a large number of well-known unregistered trade
marks (including names of armies, Chapters, and other products) including without limitation:
Adeptus Mechanicus, Assault, Alpha Legion, Black Templars, Blood Angels, Blood Ravens,
Cadian, Carnifex, Chaos Space Marines, Chaplain, Chimera, Crimson Fists, Dark Angel, Death
Case: 1:10-cv-08103 Document #: 147 Filed: 01/19/12 Page 8 of 25 PageID #:1540
9 4847-7177-8316
Watch, Devastator, Dreadnought, Drop Pod, Eldar, Elder Farseer, Eldar Jetbike, Eldar Warlock,
Eldar Seer Council, Empire, Exorcist, Flesh Tearers, Gene Stealer, Grenade Launcher, Halberd,
Heavy bolter, Heresy Armour, Hellhound, High Elf, Hive Tyrant, Horus Heresy, Howling
Banshee, Imperial Fists, Imperial Guard, Inquisition, Iron Hands, Jetbike, Jump Pack, Land
Raider, Land Speeder, Legion of the Damned, Librarian, Lightning Claw, Melta, Mk II Armour,
Mk V Armour, Plasma, Predator, Rhino, Salamander, Scorpion, Soul Drinker, Space Wolves,
Stormraven, Storm Shield, Tactical, Techmarine, Termagants, Terminator, Thousand Sons,
Thunder Hammer, Tyrant, Tyranid Warrior.

[Spectral Dragon]

One thing that GW could mention to further their case is that at one point Chapter House was advertising their stuff as being "for use with warhammer 40k" directly on their site.

[Dyrnwyn]

One thing that GW could mention to further their case is that at one point Chapter House was advertising their stuff as being "for use with warhammer 40k" directly on their site.
CHS has admitted to that - they admit that they have mentioned GW products when they kits the produce are specifically compatible with that product.

This one still makes me boggle though:

29. Many of the symbols associated with the characters and armies of the
WARHAMMER 40,000 universe, as well as the accessories for these characters and armies,
have also become well-known and immediately recognizable to the many fans of the game as
used on and in connection with the respective characters, including without limitation: skulls,
Wings (eagle wings, angel wings), Lions, Griffon, Triptychs, Broadswords, Skull with horns,
Storm bolter (gun) Sawblade with blood-drop, Clenched fist in a gauntlet, Snakes, Flaming
skulls, Flaming chalice, Salamander, Dragon/salamander scales pattern, Tau Symbol, Tau - Oval
vents, Tau - X marking on power/ammo packs, Tau – circle with diagonal line through it, Tau –
geometric grooves, Roman numerals (combined with) arrows, X crosses and inverted V, Cog,
Iron hands icon – gauntleted left hand shown palm downwards, Overlapping/banded armour,
Wolf fur, Wolf skulls, Wolf tails, Raven wings with blood drop in centre, I symbol (for
Inquisition), Scarab beetles, Spirit stones, Eldar iconography/symbols (seer icons etc), Eldar -
Spirit Stones, Eldar – decorative gems on weapons.
30. The foregoing unregistered WARHAMMER word marks and symbols are also
very well known among the hobbying and gaming communities.

Yes, there are symbols associated with your product, but most of these cannot be claimed as copyrighted or trademarked because they are generic items. You can copyright or claim as a trademark a s specific symbol - say the Khorne icon. You can't copyright 'dragons and dragonscale patterns.'

[lobster-overlord]

One thing that GW could mention to further their case is that at one point Chapter House was advertising their stuff as being "for use with warhammer 40k" directly on their site.

This here though is one thing that they ARE allowed to do. Previously, they said they were "space marine shoulder pads" and that was what was wrong because it gave the impression that they were actually sanctioned to make them for use. As long as they are calling them "shoulder pads for use with GW's stuff" they are able to get away with more. Otherwise, no company could sell aftermarket parts for cars, printer ink, or the like.

This is a small company doing just that, and GW thinks that because it's their world they can claim it all, but in reality, they don't have nearly as much of a clamp down as they think.

Otherwise, teh Tolkein estate would own GW, WOTC, HASBRO, and the rest of the entertainmetn industry for breaching copyright of anytihing and everything middle earth-esque...

[gendoikari87]

One thing that GW could mention to further their case is that at one point Chapter House was advertising their stuff as being "for use with warhammer 40k" directly on their site.

That's not against the law... There is a difference beteween selling something AS X and selling something COMPATIBLE with X. In fact there are several industries who rely on that. And not just the car industry and they don't pay royalties because they aren't copying parts.


This here though is one thing that they ARE allowed to do. Previously, they said they were "space marine shoulder pads" and that was what was wrong because it gave the impression that they were actually sanctioned to make them for use.

Actually that's allowed too, as space marine is not something GW owns the rights to. Eldar and possibly imperial guard would also fall under that category, Tau is a grey area, but tyrannids, Orks (yes, GW can lay claim to Orks, but not Orcs), necrons and a few others are squarely in GW's legal realm.

[MC Tic Tac]

CHS has admitted to that - they admit that they have mentioned GW products when they kits the produce are specifically compatible with that product.

This one still makes me boggle though:


Yes, there are symbols associated with your product, but most of these cannot be claimed as copyrighted or trademarked because they are generic items. You can copyright or claim as a trademark a s specific symbol - say the Khorne icon. You can't copyright 'dragons and dragonscale patterns.'

Irrelevant all the things that have been coped righted have been violated by CHS.

[westside]

CHS clearly is going to lose, if one takes the time to read the discovery transcripts the judge has repeatedly told GW to let CHS submit nothing into evidence (showing creation) if that is what CHS wants to do so the case can end.

My favorite reading, is where CHS legal shows a 'hammer' model to the judge while the judge is looking a GW site photo and the judge thinks CHS legal just handed him a sample of the model produced by GW. That should tell you right there how this is going to turn out.

All of CHS items are derivative works based on GW's creative content and IP. If GW didn't make or write about it CHS doesn't make it and has no interest in making it. GW's IP is the only concept that gives any item CHS make value to the consumer. That is infringement.

An idea is sci fi warriors. However, GW's IP is Space Marines in power armor with symbols such a Salamaders, and Ultramarines. Khorne didn't exist as the 'blood god' before GW and Ultramarines weren't Space Marines before GW, etc., that is what GW IP is. They have the legal right to protect that, because they are the ones that gave those symbols commercial value and meaning.

For example. just because someone makes a bottle doesn't mean Coke can't copyright and trademark the shape of their bottle, etc. Other soda companies make bottles, but none have been allowed to copy the shape of the Coke bottle. Other companies make Sci Fi games and miniatures, but they don't market them for use in someone elses games and make the minatures specifically for other games without permission of the TM/copyright holder.

The fact that CHS studios has removed reference to 40k and Warhammer from their site, doesn't protect them in the case, it is a practice known as remedial remedies and generally shows the court that one is admitting wrong doing (thus liablity).

So no CHS hasn't won anything, the case still hasn't gone to trial and is still in the discovery process.

[L192837465]

I'll say this much regarding this. GW is grasping at straws at this point. I had done some concept art for CHS and it was subpoenaed along with all of my e-mail. The kicker.. The stuff I designed is not even available yet. When I was first contacted by GW's lawyers they tried to BS me. They went after EVERY artist that created anything for CHS and thankfully the guys at Winston offered pro bono coverage on this. I know Nick pretty well and I don't think he'd BS me about the direction things are going and he's pretty confident at this point.
They have taken a few items out of circulation and when they re-did the webpage they had a list of guidelines of what could and could not be said and what they had to post for legal purposes.

Past that part.. in my own opinion, GW has not come up with a single original idea in the way of 40k. They take existing popular sci-fi themes, create an army around it and just slap some generic (sometimes laughable) back story on it. The only reason a lot of fans think it's cool is because they're wrapped up in the hype. If you step back and take a look, every single thing they have is based on pre-existing stories.. When I was asked to create concept art for figures, I did not go "oh gee.. lemme see if I can just re-do the GW stuff". I took the general idea of what the concept was originally about before GW got it, then from there I applied my take on what it would look like in a sci-fi/steampunk setting with the appropriate level of grit.

Then by your own logic, your own drawing or artwork is not original at all, either. You're taking items or ideas from something else and just adding "my take on what it would look like in a sci-fi/steampunk setting..."

So really, you think that all ideas should be inherently guarded and protected? Interesting.

[Drakkan Vael]

Irrelevant all the things that have been coped righted have been violated by CHS.

That is not necessarily true. The process off aquiring a copyright usually only involves the examination if it is already copyrighted by someone else not if the item, phrase or usage of the same is copyrightable in itself.
I.e. nobody can claim a copyright for "Chimera" as a monster because it is the old greek name for one.
In addition the copyright for a phrase, word, or picture must be attached to an item or a special usage or certain category of products. The copyright does not universally protect the word or icon from being used for everything.

[inquisitorsog]

I've stayed out of this thread to date because 1) I don't have the time to review specific claims to form my own semi-informed opinion and 2) While there's some insights, there's also a lot of ppl on this thread who haven't got the first clue about copyright and trademark getting all kinds of indignant one way or the other when their basis for their indignation is way off.

What I will say is that the more I see, the more I'm forming a strong opinion on this: CHS seems to have been formed specifically to challenge some of the more far reaching claims you hear from game companies on what copyright and trademarks cover and to set some actual precedents. If it's true that their legal counsel is pro bono, that opinion just gets reinforced. That said, GW isn't the most egregious offender in this regard. I can think of a certain role playing game maker that has historically been over the top when it comes to takedown / cease and desist orders

[gendoikari87]

My favorite reading, is where CHS legal shows a 'hammer' model to the judge while the judge is looking a GW site photo and the judge thinks CHS legal just handed him a sample of the model produced by GW. That should tell you right there how this is going to turn out.Nope. Doesn't matter the difference between breach of copyright and not is not a transitory glance. I've seen cases, specifically a company my cousin worked for and UGA, where after looking at it, I couldn't tell the difference without putting them side by side and even then I had to look hard. And UGA LOST that case.

BUT that is Georgia/American IP law, this case is international.

[gendoikari87]

That is not necessarily true. The process off aquiring a copyright usually only involves the examination if it is already copyrighted by someone else not if the item, phrase or usage of the same is copyrightable in itself.
I.e. nobody can claim a copyright for "Chimera" as a monster because it is the old greek name for one.
In addition the copyright for a phrase, word, or picture must be attached to an item or a special usage or certain category of products. The copyright does not universally protect the word or icon from being used for everything.

This is true. GW does have chimera listed under their copy right in several books, however that is a reference to their copyright of the model. A physical model, not the name.

[The Plumber]

Honestly, I expect the litigation to go on for the better part of a decade, and bankrupt Chapterhouse before it ends. But that's just my cynicism talking.

Thats usually how it works, screw chapterhouse anyway, serves them right for being cocky b£$%&ards...:p

[Flammenwerfer13]

Thats usually how it works, screw chapterhouse anyway, serves them right for being cocky b£$%&ards...:p

I HIGHLY doubt this will drag on past this year. CH is pushing hard for a jury trial and GW has only currently two lawyers dedicated to this while CH has six working for free. Almost everything that GW brought out as there 'IP' has already been thrown out in the pre-trial rulings by te judge and now it's down to few specific items. Both sides are dragging their feet but this is a typical legal move to get in building a case.

My opinion? CH will win and win big and this will be a bigger blow to GW then people will release as in essence they'll lose a lot of control over their game and models as new start ups will push in and eat at GW sales resulting in typical GW business policy of cut workers and raising prices until they price themselves out of their own market all the while gamers will move to other 'legal' modeling companies as GW models become to expense to buy.

Speaking of GW business model, if they're rather extremely horrible idea of running a business (mind you they would never a survive a true audit as they're books are a complete mess, well at least in North America) they've probably hired sub-par lawyers paying them barely anything and never listen to the lawyers advice and failing to even realize they're digging a hole for themselves.

I seriously hope that GW loses as this could actually be a huge Renaissance for Warhammer 40k as more companies push in with their models and GW will have to address the issues of poorly written and balanced codices (Grey Nights, Tyranids and Eldar to name a few) and core rule book.

But this could be all wishful thinking :P!

[Psychosplodge]

If that happens though, what would you do if GW withdraws entirely from North America?

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

If that happens though, what would you do if GW withdraws entirely from North America?Order online? :P I'm in a country without a single GWS store and the only gamestore has aussie-level prices, but that doesn't stop people from playing.

Besides, I doubt their reaction to having less IP control would be "pack up, go home".

[Psychosplodge]

Order online? :P I'm in a country without a single GWS store and the only gamestore has aussie-level prices, but that doesn't stop people from playing.

Besides, I doubt their reaction to having less IP control would be "pack up, go home".
It could be, and what if they placed an aussie style embargo on exporting the product from Europe? Remember that was a reaction to people buying their own product cheaper than what they wanted to sell it at, so if they effectively lose control of their IP as they see it, what's to stop them spitting the dummy out?

[lattd]

GW really have made a mess of this, why they didn't bring CHS over to England and bring proceedings here is beyond me.

[Flammenwerfer13]

GW really have made a mess of this, why they didn't bring CHS over to England and bring proceedings here is beyond me.

From the difference conversations with people that work both in Tennessee and Maryland and those they know over the pond if comes down to this. GW really hates the American market and is only here for the money. We're they're largest single market in the world (beating out barely all of Europe combined to include England). Our play style has effectively broke they're poorly written rule books and are willingness to be competitive and at go else where for models and modeling supplies ercks them. They have a very British mindset in doing business, which is cut employes and raise prices over and over and over.

If you ever look into doing a slow buy out of GW stock (thus making you majority share holder and effectively in control of the business) don't bother, it's in the hundred of dollars per share. They never sell shares and never split their shares so in effect GW might be a publicly traded company but very little of any possible control left GW.

GW embargoing North America would be a last ditch effort as they would remove over half their possible profits from the table. But neither would it surprise me if they did so out of a tempter tantrum showing they're already rather dismissive behavior towards us Americans already.

[bfmusashi]

Dude, if you're going to call someone out for poor writing proofread your post.

[lattd]

If you ever look into doing a slow buy out of GW stock (thus making you majority share holder and effectively in control of the business) don't bother, it's in the hundred of dollars per share. They never sell shares and never split their shares so in effect GW might be a publicly traded company but very little of any possible control left GW. .

I've just brought and sold shares in GW they are 5p a share i had 17 shares for less than a hundred with commission, plus do research, they are also mostly owned by pension and equity schemes.

[Morgan Darkstar]

I also own shares in GW

Not exactly sure where this guy is coming from.

[gendoikari87]

I also own shares in GW

Not exactly sure where this guy is coming from.

Control is not vested in common stock or preferred stock, that would be voting stock. I can almost guarantee what you have is more than likely common stock

[Aldramelech]

GW really have made a mess of this, why they didn't bring CHS over to England and bring proceedings here is beyond me.

You can't extradite someone to pursue a civil suit.

[Psychosplodge]

They have a very British mindset in doing business, which is cut employes and raise prices over and over and over.



Really? These are generally sold over here as american employment practices, also compare terms and conditions at companys such cadburys and asda before and after takeovers by american firms.

[DrBored]

I like how this topic no longer has anything at all to do with the original subject.

[Psychosplodge]

It is page 12...

[Wolfshade]

. We're [N. America] they're largest single market in the world (beating out barely all of Europe combined to include England)
WRONG! Figures are in millions of £
UK 15.0
Continental Europe17.0
North America 15.7
Australia 4.9
Emerging Markets and Capital Cities 3.5
Asia 0.8
All other sales businesses 5.1

So Flammenwerfer is saying that £32m is less than £15.7m...:eek:

This is based on the 6 month intermin report to the end of november (latest released data)
http://investor.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/2011-12-Press-statement.pdf

Come on do some research before you start spotting "claims" which are lies!

[weeble1000]

I haven't really read through this thread, but it is a fact that the GW v CHS case is ongoing.

The case has not been dismissed, and neither party has made dispositive motions, beyond the initial motions to dismiss from CHS.

This is the Court's scheduling order:

“Fact discovery closed 3/15/12. Rule 26(a)(2) by 5/1/12. Rebuttal to 26(a)(2) by 6/15/12. Expert discovery closed by 7/13/12. Dispositive motions with supporting memorandum to be filed by 8/14/12. The final pretrial order to be filed 10/19/12. A final pretrial conference is set for 11/20/12 at 3:30 p.m. Trial is set for 12/3/12 at 9:45 a.m. These are real and final dates.”

Fact discovery is closed. Rule 26(a)(2) refers to expert reports. The next phase of the case is expert discovery. Following this, the Court has ordered that dispositive motions (which both parties have expressed an intention to file) are to be filed by August 14th. The trial has been set for December 3rd of this year.

A dispositive motion is so named because it seeks a court order disposing of one or more claims of a lawsuit. For example, one might motion for summary judgment on a particular claim, meaning the party requests that the Court find in favor of one party and against another on a particular claim. The Court could rule, for example, that no reasonable person could find in favor of one party, and therefore the issue does not need to be brought before a jury, as any other result would indicate that the jury had not acted rationally or incorrectly applied the law to the facts. Dispositive motions could, in theory, result in the Court disposing of all claims in the lawsuit.

If the case is resolved, whether it is dismissed, all claims are disposed of, or even if it is with an out of court settlement with an NDA, the closing of the case would be a matter of public record.

It is a matter of public record that the lawsuit is ongoing. Games Workshop settled with Paulson, which is reflected in the public record, and Games Workshop has made public statements about the settlement. This may be the cause of any confusion.

I hope this helps.

[Rissan4ever]

That cleared up a lot, weeble1000. Thanks.:)