From "counts as deathwing." to "counts as Wolf Guard,"

[Duke]

I have a screw-around list that is my own chapters 1st company, right now I use the "counts as Deathwing," stuff. I was wondering if anyone can forsee people going from "counts as Deathwing," to "Counts as Wolf Guard."

Obviously there are some benefits to doing this... But there could be some downsides too, discuss.


Duke

[Lerra]

I'm a Deathwing player who is tossing around the idea of using "counts as SW" for tournaments.

Pros:

* Logan Grimnar is a beast compared to Belial. Of course, you pay for that beastliness, and more HQ means fewer terminators in a list which is already low on model count.

* The models which support the terminators (tanks, shooty units, additional objective holders, etc.) are cheaper. There are new shiny tricks to play around with and more powerful options in general.

* Wolf Claws re-roll to hit or to wound.

* Counter-Assault is great for units which arrive via deepstrike and sit out in the open for a turn.

* The possibility to get two heavy weapons in one terminator squad.

* Terminators can get combi-weapons for cheap, and overall they have more options.

* Terminator squads of 3-10, compared to a min of 5 and a max of 5.

* Updated rules for Land Raiders, including the new Power of the Machine Spirit

Cons:

* Certain weapons combinations are more expensive (TH/SS). This is mitigated for a Deathwing player because the new Stormshield is much improved over our older version (which is only a 4+ and works only against CC wounds), and you can avoid the increased cost by running more terminators with power swords and fewer powerfists.

* You have to buy ($$$) a lot of drop pods. Also, at 35 points a pop, it brings the SW terminator squads to nearly the cost of Deathwing squads. Of course, you don't need to put the terminators in drop pods, either.

* You lose Ravenwing Bikes and their teleport homers.

* You are moving to a new codex, which will always involve a bit of a learning curve, and leaving behind a list that you (presumably) have a lot of experience with.

[Chumbalaya]

I'd trade homers for inertial guidance gladly. Not being stuck with Fearless is also extremely handy.

I'll try using the Wuffwing for a couple games and see which I prefer.

[Skitter Leap]

I didn't think that SW could teleport anyway.

[Chumbalaya]

They don't, but being guaranteed to come in turn 1 with no chance of getting destroyed by bad scatter and deployable terrain is infinitely superior though.

[Vash113]

Maybe it's just me but if I ran into a Deathwing player using the Wolf dex I'd refuse to play em on principle if nothing else. Stick to your own guns and be patient, we Wolves waited nearly a decade patiently and now everyone wants a piece of the action, lame, very lame.

As for DIY Chapters it depends on the character, but the SW rules are so non-codex that you really need a pretty significant justification for the wolfier rules or the army just looks kinda rediculous. The Ultramarines would probably have a hernia if they saw Terminators strapped in Drop Pods.

[DarkLink]

Frankly, I think it's kinda lame that you'd refuse to play a game because you didn't like a person's fluff justification for counts as rules, even though those rules are 100% legal. You wouldn't have a problem playing a Wolfwing list, why would you have a problem playing a dark green Wolfwing list. It is only different in name.
That said, you get to pick who you want to play, so if a name change does bother you that much, then you have every right to choose not to play.


Though I love the idea of all terminator armies (never been a fan of tactical marines when I could have terminators as troops), I didn't like the restrictions of the Deathwing rules. With strictly 5man squads, all with powerfists and sargents, I couldn't help but wish Chaos could have terminators as troops. Now, I can do that sort of list using 33pt terminators. You only need one or two powerfists per squad, with a thundershield or two and cyclone missile launcher for good measure.

[Chumbalaya]

I'd happily wait for a DA book that doesn't completely suck.

If it makes you feel any better Mr. high and mighty, it's a successor chapter called the Dark Wolves 1st Great Company: The Wolfwing

[crazyzombie]

I have couple counters for your pros

-Do the math re- rolling to hit is rarely better then re-rolling to wound and if rumors serve correctly wolf guard with wolf claws cost 48 points

-Most of the time terminators get shot when they deepstrike not assaulted.

- You may be right in that Logan Grimnar is a beast compared to Belia but your also right in that you are being forced to pay in extra 145 points in a chacter you may or may not want.

-So you get chaos like terminators. the loss of deep strike(Unless you don't mind paying an extra 35 points) and the fact you have to pay a lot more points better combat gear makes up for the the base cheapness of the unit

Just of couple of thoughts

[Vash113]

Frankly, I think it's kinda lame that you'd refuse to play a game because you didn't like a person's fluff justification for counts as rules, even though those rules are 100% legal. You wouldn't have a problem playing a Wolfwing list, why would you have a problem playing a dark green Wolfwing list. It is only different in name.
That said, you get to pick who you want to play, so if a name change does bother you that much, then you have every right to choose not to play.


More than just a lack of fluff justification it stinks of powergaming, just trying to use the latest and greatest rules without actually committing to building the army. Maybe you don't like that, but I respect people that stick to their guns and don't jump ship when the next new shiny codex comes out, and I don't have a whole lot of patience for those who want to find any justification to keep up with the power creep. I'm not saying everyone does that but it's what I see an awefull lot of and in my opinion it's neither fun or amusing.


I'd happily wait for a DA book that doesn't completely suck.

If it makes you feel any better Mr. high and mighty, it's a successor chapter called the Dark Wolves 1st Great Company: The Wolfwing

Call it high and mighty if ya want, but in reality you can't expect everyone to love or support a particular idea. As for a successor, I'm afraid that's an absolute no, there are no Space Wolves successors. The Wolf Brothers proved that SW gene-seed is untenable away from Fenris, as such there are no later successors in the SW fluff at all. Only a plethora of lost companies.

[Exitus Acta Probat]

I have couple counters for your pros

-Do the math re- rolling to hit is rarely better then re-rolling to wound and if rumors serve correctly wolf guard with wolf claws cost 48 points

Wolf claws give you the CHOICE of one or the other at the beginning of each assault phase...
hands above Lightning claws, even with a slight price hike.


-Most of the time terminators get shot when they deepstrike not assaulted.

Most, yeah...but there are opportunities. Khorne zerkers, Ork nobs, Tarpit units, Genestealers etc etc etc.


- You may be right in that Logan Grimnar is a beast compared to Belia but your also right in that you are being forced to pay in extra 145 points in a chacter you may or may not want.

And worth every point. The ability to hand out old veteran skills and alter them every round, to whatever unit he's joined that round? AND making your Wolfguard Termies troops, AND pasting belial with a backhand, AND choosing between frost weapon/pwr fist every turn. Given a choice, of course not looking at it from fluff but play efficiency...well...not really a choice there.


-So you get chaos like terminators. the loss of deep strike(Unless you don't mind paying an extra 35 points) and the fact you have to pay a lot more points better combat gear makes up for the the base cheapness of the unit

Infinitely better than chaos termies. You have mixed units, access to double shot cyclones, 3+save SS and REAL wargear options (so to speak)...no, it really is all in their hands! :)

There really is no comparison.


More than just a lack of fluff justification it stinks of powergaming, just trying to use the latest and greatest rules without actually committing to building the army. Maybe you don't like that, but I respect people that stick to their guns and don't jump ship when the next new shiny codex comes out, and I don't have a whole lot of patience for those who want to find any justification to keep up with the power creep. I'm not saying everyone does that but it's what I see an awefull lot of and in my opinion it's neither fun or amusing.

Excepting the fact that GW has been ACTIVELY encouraging people to play 'counts as' for a little while now. Counts as characters, home chapters, etc.
I built an army, my own, around the DA rules for one reason (okay, I do like the old DA fluff, so technically 2). I like the concept of alternate unit deployment. All bikes, or all termies, or all something else (I have a blood angels army in my own scheme so I can have an army that is ALL in the air at any given time... What, because they aren't painted to match when the new 'dex comes out and they are better, I'll be power gaming).
They're in my own scheme, with a different background, and I added other elements so I can use em to rep all DA configurations. It's not power gaming, so don't go there. I like variety, and I want to get it up to Battle Company (equivalent) strength...thus unified paint scheme.




Call it high and mighty if ya want, but in reality you can't expect everyone to love or support a particular idea. As for a successor, I'm afraid that's an absolute no, there are no Space Wolves successors. The Wolf Brothers proved that SW gene-seed is untenable away from Fenris, as such there are no later successors in the SW fluff at all. Only a plethora of lost companies.

I have listened to SW players whine, with a viable list (until 5e...and one of the most mixed bags of skills/gear and the only non-smurf dex that shares all the advantaged SM rules) about not having a 'new' codex long enough that I find it laughable suddenly THEY'RE the ones saying 'whoops, gotta wait...no whining/counts as for you...we were patient!'...

no, not all of you were.

absolutes with regard to GW fluff doesn't fly. They will change that the first time they need to make some money/a writer changes their mind.

Who says a lost company cannot have diverged enough to alter it's basic paint scheme etc?

I am using bears for my Thunder-Wolf(Bear) riders? That make me wrong too?


To the OP,
yes, a great deal of players are going to experiment this way. Some, to try something new. Some, like me, like to try every army to get a better understanding of how to beat them in tourney. Some, like me, have their own chapters that are designed as 'flex-marines' because they like their own paint scheme/history, and like to make them playable as nearly anything (for whatever reason).
Biggest downside?
Buying new models to utilize new tools.
I'm having to scrounge up a new mounted Kislev lord for my 2nd Thunder-Bear rider...but it looks cool!

[Xas]

I'll be playing abbadon's black legion terminator force just for the fun of it.

logan is as good a slaughterer as abbadon himself (a bit less killy but mmuch less based on chance) and all the wolve termies loose over chaos ones is the ability to buy 1A for 10pts a modell and icons. and they get all the shiney wargear to compensate.


will it be effective? prolly not. will a chaos temrie army be fun? hell yes!

[DarkLink]

Get a 5 man wolfguard terminator squad, stick in a SS or two, a chainfist and give a terminator a heavy weapon and you get a great squad for cheap. The upgrades may be expensive, but so long as you don't go all out the ability to mix and match everything is amazing. It's better than a manditory 10pt powerfist on every terminator.


The whole point of all the SM characters is so you can use them as counts-as. GW is firmly behind the concept of getting to have both the fluff you want and the rules you want, even if a lot of players don't seem to understand that. They're so focused on complaining about cheese and how everyone uses special characters that don't think fit their idea of the fluff that they miss that the whole point of the game is to have a fun game, not whine about the units their opponent took.

[Schnitzel]

I'll be playing abbadon's black legion terminator force just for the fun of it.

logan is as good a slaughterer as abbadon himself (a bit less killy but mmuch less based on chance) and all the wolve termies loose over chaos ones is the ability to buy 1A for 10pts a modell and icons. and they get all the shiney wargear to compensate.


will it be effective? prolly not. will a chaos temrie army be fun? hell yes!

Using Abbadon as you're HQ choice and packing a maxed out Elites slot with three squads of 10 Terminators (without wargear changes) along with a minimum troop requirement of two squads of 5 CSMs comes to 1325pts. I'm sure you can take that extra 175 worth of points in wargear and make this a fairly viable Terminator list.

[Chumbalaya]

More than just a lack of fluff justification it stinks of powergaming, just trying to use the latest and greatest rules without actually committing to building the army. Maybe you don't like that, but I respect people that stick to their guns and don't jump ship when the next new shiny codex comes out, and I don't have a whole lot of patience for those who want to find any justification to keep up with the power creep. I'm not saying everyone does that but it's what I see an awefull lot of and in my opinion it's neither fun or amusing.

Powergaming...
Deathwing...

Something isn't right here.

I want to try out the Wolf rules and see if they fit my army better, using the same stale list DA got isn't that much fun. I don't consider either particularly powerful, but it's just my for funsies army.


Call it high and mighty if ya want, but in reality you can't expect everyone to love or support a particular idea. As for a successor, I'm afraid that's an absolute no, there are no Space Wolves successors. The Wolf Brothers proved that SW gene-seed is untenable away from Fenris, as such there are no later successors in the SW fluff at all. Only a plethora of lost companies.

Enter handwavium, Lost Founding and Dark Founding!

[Cadwallion]

And when a Wolf Lord is replaced, the new Wolf Lord can choose to change his badge and his colors if so desired. Combine that with the fact that SW don't follow Codex Astartes and the 8th Great Company is now led by the great Wolf Lord Wolfial Darkangle, a Great Company of Wolf Guard. There's always an out in fluff. :P

[Duke]

Well, I thought people would comment on the thread, but you all have impressed me.

I for one, do not think that it is 'powergaming,' to play the new codex. I think it is 'trying something new.' Powergaming is how the army is selected/ played, not the army being played.

For me personally, I started 'counts as deathwing,' becasue I wanted a Terminators as troops army. I could never stand the rules for deathwing (personal opinion) and as such I was very excited when I heard that SW would be able to run a termies as troops option. When I saw the rules I was even more excited.

As far as fluff: My army is the geneseed of those who Survived with Loken (Yes, Im taking some artistic freedom). When the Dreadnought Rylanor was sent below at that battle it was because they found an Eldar webway portal, Rylanor secured it and then used it to help Loken and his crew escape. Because of their small numbers they have, out of necessity, spent thousands of years stealing one-two suits of Terminator armour from the other chapters/ Legions. They are not pro-Imperium because of the mess that it has turned into, but they are also not pro-chaos (because they hate it.) They follow the true teaching of the Emperor which he gave while living... So why are they 'wolfy'? Because they are the Luna WOLVES. The end.

In other news, what is everyone seeing the 'power build,' to be for wolfguard? One friend of mine pointed out that you can take 10 Wolf guard, put five in termie armour and five in power armour. Then take two heavy weapons and split off the five in power armour to another squad(s). That means 5 termies with 2 heavy weapons! woot.

Duke

[Wingates_Hellsing]

The power-gaming band-wagon bit comes in when people are interested in 'trying something new' and proceed to 'try out' new things that are, more often than not, more powerful. Too often this is the only definable characteristic that makes the new 'dex 'better' or really different in any way than an old one that does the same thing albeit less effectively.

That's power-gaming as in making significant changes largely to gain an advantage on the table-top. Some people only apply the term when such efforts are grossly applied, but that doesn't change the fact that making big changes in your army so you can win as easy as possible is power-gaming whether or not you go through the roof.

Furthermore, while I respect desire to play a variety of different play styles, it's a bit of a stretch when people make all-encompassing chapters that are simultaneously two or more different chapters in a couple of iterations each. It's like doing things the normal way isn't good enough for you. If your chapter has a company that attacks with speed they suddenly warp into White Scars and when they want to roll heavy they suddenly also have a death-wing like company and so on. Nevermind that virtually every play-style is perfectly possible with a vanilla chapter base, people feel the need to use the most flashy, new and/or powerful iteration of that particular army comp which is intended to be at most a major divergence from the norm into something that can not only be pulled off by their DIY chapter, but also alongside numerous other rare compositions.

Something is fluffy when it works within the fluff. Bloating the fluff out to fit your multi-army dreams is like saying "hey I want there to be thirty thousand jedi in this star wars fanfic I'm writing, obey me!!!"
By all means, do something that's un-fluffy if you feel like it, but don't pretend it's fluff... save some time.

Also, until the background supporting the fact that there are no SW successors does change, it will remain an entirely non-canon option despite the remote possibility that some writer may take some slightly clever approach at changing it. Still has to be changed before all those little dreams in your head can explode all over everything.

Also, voicing your displeasure at having to wait is not the same as not waiting. SW players by and large stuck it out till the next dex instead of going "well, I would have to wait so I'm going to jump ship and make this new dex into SW somehow." Although, it's true that some weren't quiet about it because it's by and large something worth being loud about... insofar as anyone takes the internet seriously.

[Exitus Acta Probat]

Wingates...
not going to quote you, because it's too much.


Seeing as how the game designers themselves no longer (if truly ever, they didn't even totally make up their minds on it back in the 90's) condone this stifling of creative juices/desire to explore your own fiction etc etc (since they plugged all their holes like the 2 missing chapters, and revealed all the c'tan, and ... oh wait, they haven't), I am surprised that you cannot look into the depths of their future planning for SW and know they might change the fluff...or add to it...or make one of the missing chapters SW like in terms of tactics.

I play DH/Necrons/Tyranids as well as all my SM's...I am entitled to cry my wee little heart out if I want.
I don't. I have fun, regardless of the state of my codex.

I use Scouts, Land Speeder Storms, Razorbacks, Foot Chaplains and basic land raiders. Is that power gaming?
I use scout bikers, is that power gaming?
I DON'T have a full loadout of command bikers with light claws/storm shields/combi meltas etc...
I still have assault cannon HB land speeders.
I DON'T use Vulkan...
I DON'T use Khan/Pedro/Sicarius etc...

We are encouraged, by the game designers, to absorb and utilize their material how we wish.
and after 21 years of investment in space marines (and every other army out there) I'm entitled to use my 1000+ space marines how I see fit.

I'm sorry that I take umbrage that someone would chastise others on how they choose to play the game, when these others have not said 'you cannot play it except my way'...

[Vash113]

Well first off excelent post Wingates, have an ale!


I have listened to SW players whine, with a viable list (until 5e...and one of the most mixed bags of skills/gear and the only non-smurf dex that shares all the advantaged SM rules) about not having a 'new' codex long enough that I find it laughable suddenly THEY'RE the ones saying 'whoops, gotta wait...no whining/counts as for you...we were patient!'...
no, not all of you were.


So your saying displeasure and impatience are one and the same? Maybe you should find a dictionary because I'm afraid that's just not the case. Many Space Wolves, myself included were far from happy our Codex was left un-updated despite 2 updates for the Codex: Space Marines and Codex: Chaos Space Marines in that time. However despite all the hundreds of Space Wolf players I've met and interracted with online I've only ever seen one that used his Wolves with any rules other than those from Codex: Space Wolves. Contrast that to fully 50% of all Dark Angels players that jumped ship between when their last codex came out and the 5th Edition C:SM.

Don't try rolling complaining and "counts as" together as they are obviously two very different things. I don't mind if you complain at the Wolves getting their own Terminator Heavy list, but trying to justify abandoning the Dark Angels for the latest and greatest rules by saying the Wolves weren't patient is about as illogical and presumptuous as it gets.

Trying in addition to say it's not power gaming is bordering on outright denial. Lets face it, you've got an army with an older Codex, a new one comes out with flashier rules and that's probably gonna be more powerfull for a while and your wanting to use that, that's power gaming ladies and gents.

If you want to start an actual army of Space Wolves with the new Codex then that's bandwagoning but respectable.



absolutes with regard to GW fluff doesn't fly. They will change that the first time they need to make some money/a writer changes their mind.
Who says a lost company cannot have diverged enough to alter it's basic paint scheme etc?
I am using bears for my Thunder-Wolf(Bear) riders? That make me wrong too?


Well unfortunately until the fluff is actually changed you still can't do it. That's like smoking weed infront of a police house and telling the officers it's ok because it will be made legal eventually, whether that's the case or not it'll still land you in jail for the time being.

As for fluff absolutes don't fly in general, that's also wrong. Lots of things change in the fluff, but whatever happens the Emperor is still not going to get up off the golden throne, don a pimp outfit to go partying with the Sisters of Battle. That's an extreme example but it should illustrate the point, some things in the fluff aren't going to change whether you want them to or not. There are no female Marines, Guilliman is not going to wake up and tell Marneus Calgar that the Codex was a big mistake, Horus isn't going to be resurrected and made the new Emperor and so on and so forth. But it is funny to see people whine and moan about those things despite the sheer magnitude of creative liscense already built into the fluff. Some people just can't appreciate what they have and can never get enough I suppose.



The whole point of all the SM characters is so you can use them as counts-as. GW is firmly behind the concept of getting to have both the fluff you want and the rules you want, even if a lot of players don't seem to understand that. They're so focused on complaining about cheese and how everyone uses special characters that don't think fit their idea of the fluff that they miss that the whole point of the game is to have a fun game, not whine about the units their opponent took.

It's your army and you can do what you want, but that doesn't make it fluffy, nor does it stop it from being powergaming. Changing the codex you use cause the new one is better or more powerful is still powergaming, counts-as or not, even if a lot of players don't seem to understand that. They're so focused on an overbloated sense of entitlement they can't realize the difference between creative liscense and laziness. It's sad really.



Enter handwavium, Lost Founding and Dark Founding!

Sorry those don't justify a Space Wolf successor. Fact of the matter is that the only recorded Space Wolf successor was an unmitigated disaster and proved that the Space Wolf Gene-seed was absolutely untenable away from Fenris. The Dark Founding, Cursed Founding, Lost Founding, those allow for quite a few things but a Space Wolf successor is not one of them I'm afraid. There's hints of warped Blood Angels successors, Salamanders successors with rampant mutation, and so forth but to say that a Chapter founded at that time with Space Wolf Gene-seed will somehow be able to recruit initiates from planets other than Fenris and yet all other aspects of the Chapter are exactly the same? That's about as implausible as it gets.



I for one, do not think that it is 'powergaming,' to play the new codex. I think it is 'trying something new.' Powergaming is how the army is selected/ played, not the army being played.


See the above comments, but in short changing codexies to get the more powerful new rules is powergaming, simple as that, whether you deny it or not.



So why are they 'wolfy'? Because they are the Luna WOLVES. The end.


So just because there's "wolf" in the name the Legion is wolfy? That's just not the case, the Luna Wolves shared no traits with the Space Wolves what so ever. They had more in common with the greco-roman Ultramarines than the Sons of Fenris.

In conclusion, while counts-as is an absolutely wonderful concept that can spawn some amazingly creative things, it gets abused a lot to justify what ultimately comes down to powergaming, whether it's admitted or not. In the end each person can do whatever they want with their army, as is their right, however that does not mean they are entitled to acceptance, it does not mean half-baked fluff justifications are valid, nor does it mean opponents or other 40k players have to go along with it.

EDIT:



I'm sorry that I take umbrage that someone would chastise others on how they choose to play the game, when these others have not said 'you cannot play it except my way'...

I'm afraid you are missing the point. Neither Wingates nor I are trying to "stifle" anyones creativity. However the simple fact of the matter is nobody is entitled to demand everyone go "ZOMG dat is teh most leet idea eva!" 40k is a game that encourages a lot of creativity, however as in all other creative enterprises, there are good ideas, there are bad ones, there are ideas that work constructively with the established background, and others that don't. Frankly despite all the liscense given in the 40k background there are still ideas that are impractical, improbable and others that outright break the fluff. Space Wolf successors are one of em, a Tau created Space Marine Chapter is another, Female Marines is yet another. There are plenty, yet we still see players trying to come up with fluff to justify these things all the time, but no matter how hard they try, these concepts and ideas are still unfluffy and that's just the way it is until GW decides to change the fluff, which they can and have done before, but until they do these ideas are still... not... fluffy.

The game is another matter, you can play the game however you want as long as you use a legal rules set. Note that legal rules, and solid fluff are not one and the same. You can use whatever rules you wish, and try to come up with a fluff justification for it if you must, but that doesn't mean said justification is necessarily valid or fluffy. If your gonna break the fluff, break it. It mystifies me that people constantly seem to want to do whatever they want to with the rules and fluff and then get upset when their idea is called unfluffy. Or want to use the latest and greatest rules and/or units and get miffed when they're called power gamers. It just don't work that way folks.

[Exitus Acta Probat]

In conclusion, while counts-as is an absolutely wonderful concept that can spawn some amazingly creative things, it gets abused a lot to justify what ultimately comes down to powergaming, whether it's admitted or not. In the end each person can do whatever they want with their army, as is their right, however that does not mean they are entitled to acceptance, it does not mean half-baked fluff justifications are valid, nor does it mean opponents or other 40k players have to go along with it.


Other than an Ale to wingates (because he WAS still arguing with vigour and logic, regardless of my lack of agreement with him) I agree only with this statement, and not in it's entirety.

As you are speaking in absolutes, so shall I...
There is no such thing as wrong fluff.
I can say that my 'abaddon' is actuall the emperor, off the throne, a bit weaker for wear. I can convert and paint him up as such and claim so. This is just as legit as your black legion army.
I can say Cypher is Lion el Johnson, this is as legit as your Ravenwing trying to kill him for revealing the truth/propigating heresy.
I can make my SM's female, and play with them, as long as they are in power armour with the right equipment.
I can make a fluff about them, work them into the universe, and be as 'legitimate' as the next Ultramarine player.
I CAN say that what I am doing is NOT power gaming, because no matter how you choose to interpret it, I am doing it for fun.
I am not doing this for tourney, at least my own.
I am not doing this because I don't like my dex, I am doing it because I like my own paint scheme.

I have yet to be chastised for using them as DA...will I be so when the DA get there new 'dex and they are strong again? Like I did with my IG lately?

I have found, that those speaking from a high horse and soapbox about how their 'play' is superior, and cleaner, and purer,
feel that their innate restrictions make them better.
that somehow, it is acceptable to insult the others with appellations of WAAC players, munchkins or power-gamers.
I have not said you are some fluff-fascist, or noob, or self destructive non-competitive git...
why is it acceptable for you to reverse that equation because you fit into some vague category of 'fluff' player.

I respect all styles of play, I don't attack those that play this way.
I have my own 'fluff' armies...a decent few.
And when someone plays them differently than I. Uses them to represent different styles, what have you, like chaos guard...or eldar using DE rules to represent just pre fall, or what have you...I look at why they reached past the limits of the current story...
and guess what
I usually find that it's for modeling opportunities/paint schemes.

You know why I have a 'ubiquitous' marine army that encompasses just about everything?
because I like the models.
I like being able to paint EVERY SINGLE SM MODEL EVER MADE into a cohesive army.
I like my scheme.
I like my story.
I like my FLUFF!

and it is PURE hubris to tell me, because I don't play yours, I am less than you.

PURE HUBRIS.


EDIT;
and after further statements,
you fail to realize that the term 'powergamer' is used by those that do not like to play that way as an insult.
or you do, and don't acknowledge it.
don't aim a shotgun, and not expect some buckshot to irritate other victims.

[Exitus Acta Probat]

and to avoid Hi-Jacking/increased hot headedness...
I just posted a new thread.

please join, I think (regardless of, or frankly because of, passion...this could be fun/good)

[Wingates_Hellsing]

Yeah, power-gamer is used by some in a derogatory manner. So is the word "Black' 'white' or really anything when it comes down to it. What I and Vash have done is nothing more than take a look at what you are doing and slot it into what we find to be the correct category.

We never accused you of rabid or atrocious power-gaming, nor did we insinuate that it is a bad thing, it just is. We don't do it because we don't like it, if you do, go ahead. I'm not doing or saying anything to stop you, just describing you. If you see that description as negative, well, that's just the way the cookie crumbles.

At this juncture I suppose I could launch into rhetoric about how you have put words in my mouth and so on, but that's really not my style.

Switching gears for a moment, I do find the insinuation that I or Vash have been outright insulting people quite ludicrous. We made it abundantly clear that you can do whatever you want. That's the way this hobby is meant to work, so long as everyone is having fun, it's mission accomplished. The problem stems from the attempt to bend the rules on the table or canon of the fluff around actions and ideas that simply do not fit. You can do it anyway, that's your prerogative, but it's not official in either case.

The finer details of which I shall leave to my partner in cri... I mean... er... debate, handle that :cool:

[Exitus Acta Probat]

Yeah, power-gamer is used by some in a derogatory manner. So is the word "Black' 'white' or really anything when it comes down to it. What I and Vash have done is nothing more than take a look at what you are doing and slot it into what we find to be the correct category.

We never accused you of rabid or atrocious power-gaming, nor did we insinuate that it is a bad thing, it just is. We don't do it because we don't like it, if you do, go ahead. I'm not doing or saying anything to stop you, just describing you. If you see that description as negative, well, that's just the way the cookie crumbles.

At this juncture I suppose I could launch into rhetoric about how you have put words in my mouth and so on, but that's really not my style.

Switching gears for a moment, I do find the insinuation that I or Vash have been outright insulting people quite ludicrous. We made it abundantly clear that you can do whatever you want. That's the way this hobby is meant to work, so long as everyone is having fun, it's mission accomplished. The problem stems from the attempt to bend the rules on the table or canon of the fluff around actions and ideas that simply do not fit. You can do it anyway, that's your prerogative, but it's not official in either case.

The finer details of which I shall leave to my partner in cri... I mean... er... debate, handle that :cool:

I understand that, I think more than you know...
but by assigning a certain category to how I am playing does the same thing to me...
puts 'words' in my mouth (in this case, intent to my build/play)....

but,
like I said,
I don't wanna hijack this one too much! I have already waxed too far for this poor thread to bear.

[Chumbalaya]

Ok, got through reading the Codex, and I'm sold.

Logan Grimnar = Azrael in Terminator Armor. Master Tactician, stats worthy of a Chapter Master, and super awesome weapon = Sword of Secrets.

Wolf Claw = artificer lightning claws. DA have tons of ancient technology, voila.

Frost Blade = mini-SoS

Mixed squads = Deathwing have always been doing it, now they're raiding the Armory's cookie jar and getting all the fun toys they should have had.

Storm Shields and Cyclones = "Oh, there's the on button"

Counter-Attack = stubbornly refusing to retreat, meeting the enemy head on.

Lone Wolves = Unforgiven champions seeking out the Fallen.

Rune Priests = Psykers who aren't brained damaged IG rejects. Also runic weapon = ancient tech.

Wolves = Umm, watchers riding ponies

Sad thing is, DW as it is isn't even in the same league as Wolfwing. The best thing DW have going for them now are RW Bikers (by which I mean scouting multi-meltas that score, not teleport gimmicks) and an Apothecary. I'm under no illusions that pure Wolfwing will be truly competitive, but at least I'll have a fighting chance and some inspiration to do some neat conversions and paint jobs rather than spraying Black Reach Termies white.

Suck it fleabags.

[Vash113]

The finer details of which I shall leave to my partner in cri... I mean... er... debate, handle that :cool:

Well don't I get to have all the fun then. :D


There is no such thing as wrong fluff.


Let me see if I can explain this in layman's terms. See we play this game named "Warhammer 40,000" and this game has a background that establishes the context and setting in which this game is played. That context includes a number of foundational and structural fictional aspects including the Imperium, the Emperor, Power Armor, the Warp and so on and so forth. Whether we like it or not the designers of this game have established these fictional components as part of the official setting for this game. We do not have to abide by these contextual foundations, but when one does not do so they are no longer playing the game in the fictional universe known as "Warhammer 40,000" as established by the makers or understood by the majority of it's players. You can come up with whatever fluff you feel like, and hold to it if you absolutely must, but then your playing in the "Bob's SciFi game" universe and not "Warhammer 40,000." Fortunately the background allows for a great deal of creative liscense that lets most people do what they want with their army and still have it fit functioningly within the universe without problem.

Now as I said you don't have to do that to play the game, but when you break the canon fluff and do your own thing, that's your own thing, it isn't fluffy as established by the makers (Games Workshop) or valid as per the canon material. So yes there is such a thing as wrong fluff as regards to the canon. That's just how it works, write your own fluff if you wish, maybe your an awesome writer and your material is excelent, in that case it's good fluff but it's still wrong in the context of the canon.

Moving on.



I CAN say that what I am doing is NOT power gaming, because no matter how you choose to interpret it, I am doing it for fun.


That's not how it works I'm afraid. The presence or absence of fun does not power gaming make. If you are switching rules sets from a less powerfull one to a more powerfull one and doing so for the purpose of the power and/or the new and flashy units (which are also more powerful) then that is basically powergaming. As in a state of a gaming decision or action done for the purpose of power. It doesn't mean it's good, it doesn't mean it's bad, it just is. The context adds those meanings and neither Wingates nor I have said it's bad. Sometimes it's fun to do something that's more powerful for the purpose of using that power, it's powergaming and at times it's fun and competetive. But regardless of the reason it's being done, it still is what it is.

And no it's not the same as putting words in your mouth, we aren't making a judgemental evaluation of your motivation and/or feelings, it's a simple statement. If you can't discern the difference and choose to place a negative value to the word "powergaming" then that's your problem, not ours.



I have found, that those speaking from a high horse and soapbox about how their 'play' is superior, and cleaner, and purer,
feel that their innate restrictions make them better.
that somehow, it is acceptable to insult the others with appellations of WAAC players, munchkins or power-gamers.
I have not said you are some fluff-fascist, or noob, or self destructive non-competitive git...
why is it acceptable for you to reverse that equation because you fit into some vague category of 'fluff' player.


When have I or anyone else done that? I think I've said once that I feel that jumping ship for a new and shinier codex is rather lame, and that's what I think. However that was a personal statement and not an attack or insult to anyone in particular. Not once have I said that anyone can't do whatever they feel like, or that the way I do things is better, cleaner or purer. The only thing Wingates or I have said is that it is not necessarily canonically valid for players to do whatever they want in the rules and then foist a fluff justification for it. Play your Deathwing with Space Wolf rules if you want, that doesn't make whatever fluff justification that is presented fluffy, it's as simple as that. As with the powergaming, I haven't said it's bad to do that, or good, it just isn't canonically fluffy.



I respect all styles of play, I don't attack those that play this way.
I have my own 'fluff' armies...a decent few.
And when someone plays them differently than I. Uses them to represent different styles, what have you, like chaos guard...or eldar using DE rules to represent just pre fall, or what have you...I look at why they reached past the limits of the current story...
and guess what
I usually find that it's for modeling opportunities/paint schemes.


Chaos Imperial Guard is entirely fluffy, the rules don't really allow for it, but the fluff includes uncountable instances of traitor Guard regiments, traitor Titan Legions, Dark Mechanicus and so forth. Eldar with DE rules depends, Crone World Eldar, sure, they were basically the same thing then it's just an army set 10,000 years ago, that's fluffy I suppose but rather pointless, they haven't really changed at all. Craftworld Eldar are another matter however.

I have absolutely no problem with fluffy armies that are done for modeling opportunities and paint schemes. Adeptus Arbites, Skitarii Legions, Lost and the Damned, Legion of the Damned, Eldar Corsairs, Genestealer Hybrids and even the occasional Squats or Harlequins army, are all armies that aren't directly represented in the rules but have long been established in the fluff, and are very fluffy armies to build. You do not have to break the fluff to do a fluffy and unique army. Most armies I have seen that are done for the modeling opportunities and paint schemes are also done to be fluffy and are based off of solid and canonically fluffy concepts. Those that are not based off of fluffy concepts have generally been based off of a powergaming or ultra-competetive army list concept. That's not true of all cases, but it's what I've seen all too often.

I respect all play styles, however I'm not one to fall for the ultra entitlement demand that every and all fluff ideas be bowed down to in the name of the creativity gods. Creativity is great, but that doesn't mean everthing that's creative is fluffy in keeping with the canon.



You know why I have a 'ubiquitous' marine army that encompasses just about everything?
because I like the models.
I like being able to paint EVERY SINGLE SM MODEL EVER MADE into a cohesive army.
I like my scheme.
I like my story.
I like my FLUFF!


Ok... that's fine, but that doesn't mean your fluff is canonically fluffy. If you like the swiss-army-knife-Space-Marines-army approach then that is your prerogative and your right. It doesn't mean it's fluffy.



and it is PURE hubris to tell me, because I don't play yours, I am less than you.

PURE HUBRIS.


Perhaps it would be, if anyone had actually said that. But we didn't. All we have said is that there are fluffy ways of building an army and playing, and there are un-fluffy ways of building an army and playing. Some people prefere one over the other. It's the mixing of the two that we have objection with.

[Lerra]

If it makes you feel better, my Dark Angel successors are all-female, painted red, and traitors to boot . . .

[Exitus Acta Probat]

Maybe it's just me but if I ran into a Deathwing player using the Wolf dex I'd refuse to play em on principle if nothing else. Stick to your own guns and be patient, we Wolves waited nearly a decade patiently and now everyone wants a piece of the action, lame, very lame.

I am sorry, if you don't feel that stating 'i refuse to play you, because I feel I invested more into my fluff than you did' is disdainful, superior and insulting...then you didn't shoot for the same target others have with similar statements.
It is entirely possible that this is the crux of the entire derailing. That comes across as superior and preachy.
Intended or otherwise, it is the truth.
In the case of whether someone is affronted by it, it is not the responsibility of the listener to look for every possible out for the speaker to excuse his faux pas.



More than just a lack of fluff justification it stinks of powergaming, just trying to use the latest and greatest rules without actually committing to building the army. Maybe you don't like that, but I respect people that stick to their guns and don't jump ship when the next new shiny codex comes out, and I don't have a whole lot of patience for those who want to find any justification to keep up with the power creep.

Excepting that you are seeming to assume anyone doing so IS participating in NOTHING but play for advantage. You do not SEEM (note I did say seem, not are...just in case we really are not on the same track here) to wish to find a delineation. Nor do you seem to wish to search for a middle ground, where players do want to try the 'new' fun stuff with no realy interest in gaining tourney advantage, but no real interest in exploring that armies history.

And to say something 'stinks of powergaming' debunks later statements you have to make about intent...which is why I am wondering if it was simply a bad turn of phrase, as opposed to intent. I have been known to do that on occasion myself.




Call it high and mighty if ya want, but in reality you can't expect everyone to love or support a particular idea. As for a successor, I'm afraid that's an absolute no, there are no Space Wolves successors. The Wolf Brothers proved that SW gene-seed is untenable away from Fenris, as such there are no later successors in the SW fluff at all. Only a plethora of lost companies.

Again, what you see and I see in an infinite universe of fiction neither has to coincide, nor invalidates or validates...is simply different.



Let me see if I can explain this in layman's terms.

Yeah, that's not typical of your tone so far.
If you are going to enter a serious debate with someone, and intend to be taken as seriously as they, yet protest your 'politeness' the whole way when accused of less than cordial manners...well, you need to consider the tone you have taken...from the start.



See we play this game named "Warhammer 40,000" and this game has a background that establishes the context and setting in which this game is played. That context includes a number of foundational and structural fictional aspects including the Imperium, the Emperor, Power Armor, the Warp and so on and so forth. Whether we like it or not the designers of this game have established these fictional components as part of the official setting for this game. We do not have to abide by these contextual foundations, but when one does not do so they are no longer playing the game in the fictional universe known as "Warhammer 40,000" as established by the makers or understood by the majority of it's players. You can come up with whatever fluff you feel like, and hold to it if you absolutely must, but then your playing in the "Bob's SciFi game" universe and not "Warhammer 40,000." Fortunately the background allows for a great deal of creative liscense that lets most people do what they want with their army and still have it fit functioningly within the universe without problem.

Now as I said you don't have to do that to play the game, but when you break the canon fluff and do your own thing, that's your own thing, it isn't fluffy as established by the makers (Games Workshop) or valid as per the canon material. So yes there is such a thing as wrong fluff as regards to the canon. That's just how it works, write your own fluff if you wish, maybe your an awesome writer and your material is excelent, in that case it's good fluff but it's still wrong in the context of the canon.

Again, I think you have now chosen to comport yourself in a fashion as dealing with a child.
It is unfortunate that, in your debate, you have chosen the path of least resistance. A path that allows you to condescend, seemingly lending weight to your argument. It is a nice manipulative tool of the audience...one that politicians and lawyers have mastered.
I laud you sir, for obscuring reality in so professional a fashion! kudos!
Now, guess what...you are wrong.
You choose to interpret the strictness of the 'canon' of the 40k universe as deeply, as literally, or as loosely as you choose...and the game designers WANT this.
I honestly would not re-write that the emperor is a woman with 3 arms, that steps into the realm of the ridiculous and would not be accepted.
Apparently, the violation of your fluff with mine causes a similar reaction.
Me, I hit a middle ground. I wouldn't refuse to play someone that saw the 3 armed empress of mankind as his leader, but I'd sure argue fluff with them.
I would not pack up and leave because someone thought that my armies fluff wasn't as concrete as theirs.
BUT, I would wonder why the both of them couldn't see my side of the argument...
a normal human reaction.



That's not how it works I'm afraid. The presence or absence of fun does not power gaming make. If you are switching rules sets from a less powerfull one to a more powerfull one and doing so for the purpose of the power and/or the new and flashy units (which are also more powerful) then that is basically powergaming. As in a state of a gaming decision or action done for the purpose of power. It doesn't mean it's good, it doesn't mean it's bad, it just is. The context adds those meanings and neither Wingates nor I have said it's bad. Sometimes it's fun to do something that's more powerful for the purpose of using that power, it's powergaming and at times it's fun and competetive. But regardless of the reason it's being done, it still is what it is.
And no it's not the same as putting words in your mouth, we aren't making a judgemental evaluation of your motivation and/or feelings, it's a simple statement. If you can't discern the difference and choose to place a negative value to the word "powergaming" then that's your problem, not ours.

Yes, you did make a judgement...from quote 1 you did.
I'd refuse to play em on principle
stinks of powergaming
First two example I pulled.
Maybe they really were not intended as they have been taken, but they DO place a valuation on how you see someone else playing.
You have JUDGED them with these (and further) statements.
If you cannot see that....




When have I or anyone else done that? I think I've said once that I feel that jumping ship for a new and shinier codex is rather lame, and that's what I think.

Again, tone and lame...
Is it jumping ship, or having fun?
I don't know anyone that has destroyed their armies to make them function as newer ones. I have seen them add to them to have other models/units for swap. This spends money in the hobby.
This perpetuates the game/designers.
Is it a measure of money spent?
Is it that I don't buy all new models to make my new army?


Perhaps it would be, if anyone had actually said that. But we didn't. All we have said is that there are fluffy ways of building an army and playing, and there are un-fluffy ways of building an army and playing. Some people prefere one over the other. It's the mixing of the two that we have objection with.

And you are allowed to do whatever you want, object to whatever you want.
But don't expect those that don't share your view to say "oh, look...they think we're lame" and not react to it.
Don't defend it.
Confront the reality of what you did, as you are trying to tell me to confront my 'powergaming'. Accept that you were viewing your play as superior, and being (albeit mildly) insulting.
To put it in layman's terms;
Man up, or realize that you may have said more than you intended.

[Exitus Acta Probat]

If it makes you feel better, my Dark Angel successors are all-female, painted red, and traitors to boot . . .

Funny...and I am properly chastised. :)

[DarkLink]

I have to say I'm behind Exitus Acta Probat on this one. I frankly find the attitude of players like Vash113 rather presumptuous. To him, I have to say "Why so serious?" It's a frickin' game. Why get worked up pointlessly over someone playing with viable rules, then talk down to the people who disagree with your attitude. I hope you are only unintentionally coming across as someone with a bit of a bad attitude, and aren't like this face to face.


Originally Posted by Lerra
If it makes you feel better, my Dark Angel successors are all-female, painted red, and traitors to boot . . .

Heh, with green trim they could be santa's helper elves. Well, evil helper elves, anyways

[Wingates_Hellsing]

Just like tabletop armies have rules to follow, fluff must follow canon to be valid. In both cases you can do differently if you so choose, but that in no way makes it officially valid. We as people who value validity in both the rules and fluff prefer validity if at all possible and generally dislike it when someone shoves something grossly out-of-bounds in our faces and demands we not say "Do it if you want, doesn't make it valid/fluffy/canon" because that's 'stifling their creativity'.

Want to be creative? go ahead, not stopping you... want to be fluffy/canon? follow the rules. It's possible to do both with a bit of effort. If you don't feel like making your background fluffy, you can at least admit it and have fun being non-canon instead of complaining about it when you're called out on your aforementioned lack of cononinity (it's a real world now :D).

[sodcactus]

By complaining about it's "powergaming" to use the new SW-codex for builing a Deathwing-like list using 'count-as' DA. Does that mean that the SW-player(s) admit that the SW-codex is overpowered? ;)

Interesting, since it's been stated (by some individuals) that NO codex creep exists in 40K. That should make DW and WolfWing equal in a gaming perspective and if someone would like to try out WW before commiting to it by using 'count-as', just go for it. What in the end does the colour of the models have to do with the game.

Fluff and game-mechanics are miles and miles apart in 40K anyway so why bother so much?

[Aux]

I think the idea of changing armies like this shouldn't be construed as powergaming, but more as bandwagon jumping. The same thing exists in professional sports, so it isn't unlikely that it could happen in the gaming environment. Just wait until the Super Bowl is over this coming year and see how many more of Jersey A will be worn in your city. So far, Space Wolves are the bright, shiny, new toy with a whole new mess of tricks and have been successful for the most part in initial outings. If people want to jump around armies, let them. To me, it feels like all they are embracing is the old "jack of all trades, master of none" adage, and that just allows people who stay devoted to their armies to get practice against a wider field of opponents. As for me, I still take pride in running my Deathwing or my Tau. Could both armies use some boost to get them up to 5th ed standards? Definitely. Does it feel especially good when I beat newer armies with my older ones. Most definitely.

[Exitus Acta Probat]

I think the idea of changing armies like this shouldn't be construed as powergaming, but more as bandwagon jumping. The same thing exists in professional sports, so it isn't unlikely that it could happen in the gaming environment. Just wait until the Super Bowl is over this coming year and see how many more of Jersey A will be worn in your city. So far, Space Wolves are the bright, shiny, new toy with a whole new mess of tricks and have been successful for the most part in initial outings. If people want to jump around armies, let them. To me, it feels like all they are embracing is the old "jack of all trades, master of none" adage, and that just allows people who stay devoted to their armies to get practice against a wider field of opponents. As for me, I still take pride in running my Deathwing or my Tau. Could both armies use some boost to get them up to 5th ed standards? Definitely. Does it feel especially good when I beat newer armies with my older ones. Most definitely.

Okay, now THAT'S a comment I cannot argue with.
Bandwagon-ing.
I would definitely accept being told I was jumping on the new shiny bandwagon.
I may not like it, I may not care on whit...but i sure cannot argue with it.


To me, it feels like all they are embracing is the old "jack of all trades, master of none" adage, and that just allows people who stay devoted to their armies to get practice against a wider field of opponents

I think knowing how an army plays is easier to discover while playing that army...understand the enemy, and maybe end up liking em you decide to BE the enemy.

[Chumbalaya]

Just like tabletop armies have rules to follow, fluff must follow canon to be valid. In both cases you can do differently if you so choose, but that in no way makes it officially valid. We as people who value validity in both the rules and fluff prefer validity if at all possible and generally dislike it when someone shoves something grossly out-of-bounds in our faces and demands we not say "Do it if you want, doesn't make it valid/fluffy/canon" because that's 'stifling their creativity'.

Want to be creative? go ahead, not stopping you... want to be fluffy/canon? follow the rules. It's possible to do both with a bit of effort. If you don't feel like making your background fluffy, you can at least admit it and have fun being non-canon instead of complaining about it when you're called out on your aforementioned lack of cononinity (it's a real world now :D).

Ok, so my Iron Warriors are followers of Slaanesh, Ultramarines are a 3rd founding chapter, Tigurius is half Eldar, and the Crimson Fists are a founding Legion.

Is that canon?

[thehod]

Ok, so my Iron Warriors are followers of Slaanesh, Ultramarines are a 3rd founding chapter, Tigurius is half Eldar, and the Crimson Fists are a founding Legion.

Is that canon?

Anything is with 40,000 years in the making.

[Chumbalaya]

Ding ding ding, we have a winnah!

[ZSpartan]

first off im a power gamer. Just to get that outta the way, but i dont see why that matters you can choose who you want to play so no one forces you to play power gamers.. The LGS i play at is pretty big on winning so if you want to have fluffy games you only show up on the campaign nights. My vampire marines are gonna be werewolf marines for awhile it looks like and it seems crazy to me that anyone would care, I'm not stealing your army and no is stopping you from playing how you wanna play. You SW players are very used to being a small player base and now you are all just worried your gonna be the next smurfs and all the hate that goes with that.

[Duke]

So I have been reading along and holding my posts... anyhow ehre it goes.


In this example I don't think that going from Deathwing to WolfWing is power gaming. (feel free to challange my logic if you would like)

reasons:
- If a new player comes in and looks at both rules and chooses the Wolf dex he is not classified as a power gamer just by simply making a decesion.

- Prior to the Wolf codex there was no decision to make. If you wanted to play a terminator list you were forced to play it as Deathwing (even though you may not like Dark Angels or the specific terminator rules)

- Once a second option exists then people who were forced into DA can now make a choice, just as the new player does. This choice does not a powergamer make.

-If, for example, there were other 'terminator army,' options and then the wolf codex came out you could better make the argument that it was power gaming... Unless the person was using the Deathwing rules to play his Space Wolves first company.

Duke