Deathwing Anti-Horde problems

[TheUnforgiven]

So after much internet, codex and table bashing with my Deathwing I have come to the conclusion that while for the most part being the only viable way to play Dark Angels, the Deathwing can often have a fair bit of trouble with horde style armies.

I used to regulate that to my speeders which were had multi-melta/heavy flamer combo, I have finally built a brace of speeders with typhoon launchers on em and lost the mild anti horde from my old speeders.

A couple of people have suggested dakka preds, but to me a pair of HB's and an auto cannon isn't enough.

I'm liking the look of a Pair of whirlwinds more and more, with possible support from a Vindi hiding in the woods.

At 1500pts (my usual game size)

I can grab Belial, 6 squads of Deathwing, 3 Typhoon/Melta Speeders, 2 Whirlwinds and a Vindicator.

(i changed from the mixed deathwing/ravenwing, to as many terms on field as possible awhile ago, I dont mind inaccurate deepstrike these days, I just keep em about 8" away from painful possibilites)

Any thoughts?

[Wolfshade]

What's the load out on the Deathwing?

[Gotthammer]

The typhoons should help with putting two frag templates out each, as should any cyclones you have on your termies.

[dwez]

I had my 'nids against a White Scars force the other day who took two Whirlwinds just for a laugh. He'd never used them before didn't know what they'd be like. I felt pretty smug with all my Termagants hugging cover until the Incendiary Missiles wiped them out without any cover saves and no armour saves. Lets say it was carnage for the little fellas.

I'd imagine other hordes are also low points, low saves, hug cover where possible so I think your Whirlwinds may prove their worth.

[pathwinder14]

Wait wait wait....you don't run 2 LRC? That solves horde right there.
Here:

HQ:
Belial
Troops:
5 Assault terminators with TH/SS in a Land Raider Crusader with Multimelta
5 Assault terminators with TH/SS in a Land Raider Crusader with Multimelta

Elites:
Dreadnought with multi melta in Drop Pod
Dreadnought with multi melta in Drop Pod

You have AV 14, lots of Melta, lots of TH, and lots of Cclose combat skills. What's not to like? Need more points get anotherunit of TH/SS assault terminators.

[blackarmchair]

I don't think whirlwinds are really necessary. In general, a decent volume of Cyclone Missile Launchers should really be sufficient to handle a horde.

Are horde armies common in your area? All I ever see in my local meta is my Orks and a few scattered Tyranid players.

[Tynskel]

I have always found that Hv Flamers and Lightning Claws do quite well for dealing with Hordes.

Then, again, I have always enjoyed IN YO FACE playing.

[CrimsonTurkey]

If I were you I might try ot just pick up three vindicators. The pieplate is no bigger on the whirlwind but the vindicator can threaten everything.

[Nosmo75]

I'd go for triple Whirlwinds, myself. Cheap, cheerful and the utter bane of horde armies. =)

Also, another thing that would help would be for you to drop the Terminators and take as many Tactical Squads as you can, backed up by anti-infantry Devastators. The extra firepower will put out far more damage than a handful of Terminators will.

[Shadow Puppet]

How do you fit all those models in a 1500 pt game?
Belial and 6 squads of deathwing terminators are 1420, and that is with no upgrades at all on any of the terminators.

[Chumbalaya]

I take Dreads to tie down more problematic horde units. They're cheap, offer extra melta in an army that doesn't have much of it available and are a nice jack-of-all-trades unit.

[Brymm]

I think the real strength in Deathwing is the ability to get a bunch of Terminators. My Belial sqaud with an Apoc/Standard/and a mix of terminators usually just wades through hordes. For a 6 man unit they have chewed through practically hundreds of guants without losing any guys. They take down 30 man boyz squads pretty easily too (just had a shield take the power klaw attacks).
You can soften them up with all of the Cyclones in advance. In reality, you should really only be having issues with spammed AV 14 (and who runs that!?). I feel anti-horde is what Deathwing does best. :) Go get em!

[wormark]

I agree with the Land Raider Crusader. They pack a lot of firepower and are something that most horde armies would really struggle to crack open as long as you keep moving.

I don't have a lot of experience with Tyranids, but I do have several matches against Death Wing as an Ork player. What you want to do is make the Ork player go first, which will spread them out, then deploy in whichever corner makes them have to go through as much difficult terrain. It should very hard for them to get to you before turn 3, depending on the list.

If it's a speed freaks list, then you should be able to shred the trukks and buggies. The mob size should be too small to give you much trouble.

Battlewagons can be more dangerous because the Deffrollas will wreck LRs, so concentrate on them first as well as any Kans, Dreads, and possibly Koptas.

[TheSustainableCenter]

Scattering templates are always unreliable, plus hordes get so much over and the whirlwind is pretty useless against all but the worst infantry. Maybe some HF on your cc termies?

[Vanchet]

As everyone else said, I agree, Cyclones and crusaders for your horde issues
Whrilwinds are good but your only really gonna use them against Hordes wen they show-when a marine like force is on the table it doesn't make up it's points and becomes another easy kill point for them

[DarkLink]

Put cyclone missile launchers on literally everything that can take it. It's not only good against infantry, but is great against most everything else, too.

And just because you can deepstrike doesn't mean you should. Start on the board by default, and only use reserves unless you have a specific reason to do so. This is especially true against hordes, as you'll need as many turns, as many shots and as much space as possible just to kill all those models.

[TheUnforgiven]

Wow, go to work come back and there are two pages. Crikey

@ Wolfshade - The Deathwing are loaded with2 TH & SS, 1 LC, Cyclone and LC, 1 Chain Fist & SB

@ Shadow Puppet - Typo there, happens when typing at stupid o'clock, I was quoting from an 1850 list I made and stupidly wrote 1500.

And I'm not really a fan of taking Land raiders in a Deathwing force, cause where I play too many people take alpha strike melta units and in my army Land raiders end up being the only thing for them to munch on.

As for local armies, there are mostly Razor Spam BA, Draigo Wing, Ork Foot Horde, And Ork Trukk Horde and a couple of Nid Zilla armies.

[Altin]

If cyclones and typhoons aren`t enough i recommend vindicators. They fit deathwing "the biggest and thoughest" style and are able to threat almost every unit on the table, especially a horde

[Marshal_Wilhelm]

It can be really hard for an Elite army to beat a Horde army. Even if the Horde army cannot kill all of the Elite army, digging things like Objectives out of their reach can be horrid!

This is one of the best online guides to 'anti-horde' and is by Fester on 3++
http://www.3plusplus.net/2010/12/tactics-destroyed-by-horde-what-do-i-do.html

I hope that helps :)

[Wolfshade]

Scattering templates are always unreliable, plus hordes get so much over and the whirlwind is pretty useless against all but the worst infantry
In a true horde list it doesn't matter the scatter as it will always land on something, also, horde armies tend to be comprised of the "worst" infantry, where the AP on the whirlwind missiles.

Someone also mentioned Vindicators, while they are brilliant (doubly so in BA armies), they have only a 24" range, against horde lists I would suggest Vinids should keep their distance. Also, the big AP2 S10 pie plate is a bit overkill for such units where the targets are T3 Sv5+

[plainoldandrew]

i'd try increasing the amount of Storm bolters in the army, have a couple of shooty DW squads (Assault cannon, SB + PW Sgt, 3x SB + PF). plonk them in somne decent cover near an objective. they may not have great range but 24 inches is still decent enough to deal with hordes (given that they usually are moving to you, except maybe foot guard with massed HWT's).

see my post here: http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?t=20145

for a better rundown of my choices.

[MrGiggles]

Well, from what you've said, the only really bad match ups you've got in your local group seem to be the Foot Orks and maybe the bugs. Some of the other ones are more mobile than you, but your missiles should mitigate that a bit.

I'm with everyone else though, if you're just having trouble with the foot horde, Missile Launchers on Cyclones and Typhoons and Stormbolters on your Terminators are good things to have. The scatter on your blast templates can be annoying, but if you're dealing with a true foot horde, well, that takes up a lot of real estate. It really depends on how good you are at rolling scatters. If you're good at it, then missiles are your friend. If you're not, it's time to look toward Flamers, Land Raider Crusaders and cheap Dreadnoughts to just tie units up.

[TheUnforgiven]

Cheer's for the replies guys, It's been really helpful.

In my previous match-up I have had a lot less Deathwing on the field. (I used to run a full Ravenwing Assault SQDN + 2 speeders), I haven't actually had a match up yet since I have changed my force, but with a couple of tweaks here and there I should be fine.