The Vindicare Assassin

[Big Daddy]

I've searched many a forum to find out the answer to my question, and so far, I have yet to find any answers. So I thought I'd ask it to what seems like the most knowledgeable and easy going group. Here's my question:

While the 4th Ed. Daemonhunters FAQ stated that the Vindicare Assassin could indeed fire into CC and ignore normal firing restrictions, the current Grey Knight FAQ makes no mention of it at all. Is the Vindicare still able to ignore firing restrictions?

Also, during my research, I've noticed a lot of talk on taking more than 1 assassin (different temples of course) per GK army. At the top of the Assassins profile, it says that "All assassins have the following characteristic profile,.... and special rules. Additionally, each assassin will be a member of one of the four temples,..." That to me says that you can only ever take 1 assassin per GK army list as the "Assassin" unit type, not the temple it comes from, is unique. Would this be the correct reading?

:) Thanks

[The Twilight Fade]

Each individual assassin is unique but you can take as many different ones as elite slots you have spare (so up to 3 in a regular army that is)

Also the new rules don't allow you to target into CC you just simply get to pick the model that takes the save (if any), which doesn't override normal firing restrictions. It's the price you pay for unlimited special bullets I guess

[Demonus]

correct. while firing into cc would be cool, i like the fact that my bullets are no longer 1 shot each. by far my favorite 40k mini of all time.

[Mr.Pickelz]

While he has more ammo now, I valued his old rules more. Out of the three shots i only found myself needing maybe one more hellfire( wounds on a 2+). The always Night fight; the reduction in cover save; And the shoot into close combat, outweighed the bigger ammo belt in my opinion.

[celestialatc]

While he has more ammo now, I valued his old rules more. Out of the three shots i only found myself needing maybe one more hellfire( wounds on a 2+). The always Night fight; the reduction in cover save; And the shoot into close combat, outweighed the bigger ammo belt in my opinion.

And I feel like he was more survivable in the last edition. Now he is just a kill point if you don't go first in turn one.

[Grenadier]

Where are the rules for the assassins? All I have is the Daemonhunters codex but it does seem the rules for them have changed. And I have a Callidus I'd like to bust out next time I can battle.

[jonsgot]

Love my Vindicare but there seems to be now way of protecting him other than sticking him somewhere with a limited Line of sight or in a bunker, if there is one. An easy kill point for your opponent, as soon as they have worked out they can target him independently from any other models.

[Luke Licens]

Where are the rules for the assassins? All I have is the Daemonhunters codex but it does seem the rules for them have changed. And I have a Callidus I'd like to bust out next time I can battle.

You seem a bit behind the power curve, friend. The old Daemonhunters codex has been superceeded by the Grey Knights codex, and is no longer valid. Assassins are an elite choice for Grey Knights, and no longer available to other armies as 'Allies'.

Nothing will stop you from using the old version in friendly games with your opponent's permission, but don't expect to use him in a pickup game at the FLGS.

[red/winter]

Vindicare in a ruins plus a techmarine to bolster = 2+ cover. That's all I've ever needed. Usually lasts until turn 3 or 4 at least.

[Grenadier]

That purely and utterly sucks a big fat fail sammich!:mad:

I have absolutely no intention of starting a Gray Knights army ever. Can't stand the look of their models and I hear they're over the top too powerful.

But I enjoyed having a small Inquisition force to ally to either of my two armies when facing Chaos. So I take it the Inquisition is gone now? No more inquisitor and retinue, daemonhosts (fun little unit) and death cult assassins? If the only way I can have an assassin now is to play Gray Knights I'll just retire my asssassin for good.


You seem a bit behind the power curve, friend. The old Daemonhunters codex has been superceeded by the Grey Knights codex, and is no longer valid. Assassins are an elite choice for Grey Knights, and no longer available to other armies as 'Allies'.

Nothing will stop you from using the old version in friendly games with your opponent's permission, but don't expect to use him in a pickup game at the FLGS.

[thecactusman17]

The Grey Knights book actually allows for an even better Inquisitorial list than the previous edition, with one unfortunate catch: You have to take one named character (Coteaz) in addition to anything else to make them troops. But afterwards, the new codex really does blow the old one out of the water in terms of options and flexibility. You have far more modeling opportunities and more options for units like Death Cult assassins, Daemonhosts, servitors, soldiers, etc. You can even add in cool units like the Stormraven, Land Raider, Dreadnoughts or Dreadknight without having to take unit X beforehand, so you can represent several more Inquisitorial units at your disposal. I've seen several people creating very convincing AdMech lists with it, for example.

[Grenadier]

That sounds good (especially since my favorite units still exist) but still I can't just have Inquisition only to ally to an Imperial army right? I'd have to go Gray Knights just to have some Inquisition units? I was hoping the Inquisition would still be available.

If this is so I'd have to settle for the old invalid codex minus the new improvements in friendly games.

[karlthepagan]

I was hoping the Inquisition would still be available.

The only thing really lacking is heavy and fast attack selections unless you give in to the temptation of Fortitude laden cheese.

The psyker squads are pretty viable, and Inquisitorial servitors are terrific.

A Coteaz list is almost viable and certainly can be fun in friendly games. If you don't take a Land Raider Crusader I don't even think people should complain about DCA's.

I wish Jokaero's had better BS for their price.

[DarkLink]

You can do pretty well with inquisition stuff. Servitors, acolytes and psykers are all decent units, though you need to put an inquisitor with the servitors for them to do anything. DCA with a crusader or two are flat out absurd, especially if you include an inquisitor with rad/psykotroke grenades, but they do need a decent transport. Jokearo are kinda overpriced, they're pretty mediocre. You're better off with psyrifle dreads for long range heavy firepower.

Coteaz plus a second Inquisitor with either a psycannon or rad/psykotroke grenades, a unit or two of DCA plus transports, a couple acolyte squads in razorbacks, and a couple of servitor/psyker squads in chimera, and a couple psyrifle dreads to back that all up is a very competitive list, though it does have its weaknesses. Mainly, it's very fragile, even moreso than usual razorback spam.

Other than the options I mentioned, the inquisitorial stuff is pretty crappy. As for the Inquisitors themselves, there are literally only two acceptable options: Malleus Inquisitor with terminator armor and a psycannon, or a Xenos Inquisitor with rad/psykotroke grenades. Servo-skulls and psychic powers are good options, but that's about it.

Edit: DCA are awsome, but their issue is two-fold. One, they don't have assault grenades or fleet, which limits them to either purely counter-assault or requires you to take a very expensive transport like a Crusader. Secondly, they tend to overkill stuff, and with T3 and a 5+ save, they're not exactly durable. It's easy for an opponent to bait them then shoot them to death. So keep that in mind.

[Demonus]

Hmm I dont find the vindicare any less survivable than a lot of other elite specialists in the game. in a ruin, he has 3++ cover save or 2++ if you invested in a tech priest, a 36inch range, or 12inch range if he has to move around and 4++ vs shots that ignore cover.

I had mine in a ruined building with a tech priest last tourney I was in vs Orcs. The orcs managed to wreck the ruins and I still managed to move take out 2 giant roller trucks and a nob biker sgt.

You can even hijack a rhino/razorback to move with some protection if need be.

*edit*

I was just thinking, if the leaked pistols in cc rules prove to be true, how nasty the vindicare will be. Moves up, shoots land raider with 4d6 pen pistol, blows it up, then assaults 5 terminators inside with 4 attacks, hittin on 3s and killing on 4+ (ap1) before they even swing.

Or using the invuln save killer and charging a daemon prince.

Nasty

[Grenadier]

My only real experience with an assassin is my Callidus. I studied them heavily and determined there's one for basically each battlefield role buy not any one that's an all around type. The Vindicare seems like an excellent choice to me. But I didn't select it since I have ample enough firepower and the ability to pinpoint specific targets didn't matter as much. The Callidus fit my army as an ally perfectly. Her only purpose was to take out the big baddies my Guard couldn't easily deal with.

I'm reconsidering my view now on the Gray Knights. I'd prefer to go more with Inquisitorial forces and less GKs. I simply dislike them.

[celestialatc]

My only real experience with an assassin is my Callidus. I studied them heavily and determined there's one for basically each battlefield role buy not any one that's an all around type. The Vindicare seems like an excellent choice to me. But I didn't select it since I have ample enough firepower and the ability to pinpoint specific targets didn't matter as much. The Callidus fit my army as an ally perfectly. Her only purpose was to take out the big baddies my Guard couldn't easily deal with.

I'm reconsidering my view now on the Gray Knights. I'd prefer to go more with Inquisitorial forces and less GKs. I simply dislike them.

Well, if you are not going to have Grey Knights in your inquisitional force you will have a hard time filling a lot of rolls. I believe it's already been said but you will not have any fast or heavy support. You are also limited on Elites and HQs. But I am sure you can make some neat conversions of Grey Knight vehicles to be more inquisitoral. A lot of people have done that with Adeptus Mechanicus and Adeptus Custodes using the Grey Knight book.

[Grenadier]

I'd only be using it for friendly Apoc battles. Despite having two armies my opponent or his friend both far exceed my combined points. And I always end up playing at a disadvantage. Some Inquisitorial forces would help, especially since they both can field Chaos armies against me. Their numerical advantage is negated though thanks to all the ordnance at my disposal. As they plan to do in the next battle the weekend after this. Sadly I can't get the Gray Knights codex in time so it'll just be my Guard and Templars. Though I may field my Templars as vanillas since a vanilla army is better than the Templars (better stats for characters, relic blades, and the units not in the Templars book.)

[thecactusman17]

Don't be so hard on the templars, they are far from terrible. If you primarily play apoc, though, then there is no contest: play the Grey Knights codex inquisitors. They are far more fun and even more thematic if you want. Add singer if the collet options from IA like valkyries and have a ball!

[Grenadier]

Oh I don't think they're inherently terrible. I just lament that their codex is outdated. I mean, they're supposed to be a great hand to hand army right? But since the latest marine codex came out you can field a much better army for hand to hand. Especially since the vanilla commander has better stats and options than the very leader of the Templars. I love the Templars despite the fact I absolutely LOATHE the assault phase! They're the perfect army to accompany my Imperial Guard. Basically...I just want them to get an update. High Marhsal Helbrecht ought to have a revamped set of stats and special rules. And its not unreasonable to think Marshals would have honor guard squads or the Templars would have vanguard squads. Or relic blades in their armory. And maybe add in a couple of new special characters. In the big battles I have with my opponent these two combined are pretty much unbeatable.

But since I'll be going against Chaos much more in my future battles I'm thinking a little Inquisitorial help really would be of benefit to me. Especially if my opponent uses a daemon heavy army. In the past with the Daemonhunters codex I used them to great effect. I never used any Gray Knights though. As for the new Gray Knights, I'm not impressed by their models. And I think the Dreadknight is ridiculous.

[Riandro]

I think the Dreadknight is ridiculous.

Who doesnt think a giant baby carrier looks rediculous?
http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSp2LyYIDzF2nPICyrCiVmufQ3Dos77G dr7Bs6v86BToWlan_O6CBSQiE3i

[Grenadier]

They're absolutely ridiculous. And I'd wager hazardous to the baby too. What if the parent with the baby strapped to his chest is a clumsy oaf? Trips and falls flat on his face or runs into a door?

[sverigesson]

I was just thinking, if the leaked pistols in cc rules prove to be true, how nasty the vindicare will be. Moves up, shoots land raider with 4d6 pen pistol, blows it up, then assaults 5 terminators inside with 4 attacks, hittin on 3s and killing on 4+ (ap1) before they even swing.

From the wording of the Exitus weapons and the section in the leak on pistols in CC, it isn't 100% clear whether the special ammo rules are intended to be used in CC. I'd say, RAW by the leak, probably, but I imagine we won't know until they actually come up (if you believe they are the real deal). Still, that would be pretty sick.

[DarkLink]

6th ed isn't going to look too much like the leak anyways, so don't worry about it.

[Demonus]

From the wording of the Exitus weapons and the section in the leak on pistols in CC, it isn't 100% clear whether the special ammo rules are intended to be used in CC. I'd say, RAW by the leak, probably, but I imagine we won't know until they actually come up (if you believe they are the real deal). Still, that would be pretty sick.

that was without special ammo (except for shooting the vehicle). the gun itself is AP1, and they would wound on 4+ unless they made a change to how it normally works. Still they are str 4 right? good chance of wounding on 4+ :)

[Roma89q]

that was without special ammo (except for shooting the vehicle). the gun itself is AP1, and they would wound on 4+ unless they made a change to how it normally works. Still they are str 4 right? good chance of wounding on 4+ :)

you're right, they still always wound on a 4+.

[Sinistermind]

the vindicare is awesome although ive been wanting to try the eversor/callidus

[Spectral Dragon]

For Cheese in the Inquisition army I plan on building I am going to take a Vindicare and a Celluxus, sitting next to my full psyker squad. (His special rule still doesn't discount psykers in your own unit.)

Personally, I can handle the fact that I can no longer shoot in CC with the Vindicare. I love how my ammo is no longer limited. His BS of 8 is a fair tradeoff for this. I love being able to re-roll the 1's I always seem to roll with them. I believe the re-roll is on a 4+? Hitting is no problem with this unit at least.

[darthslowe]

Personally, I love the Culexus assassin. He eats squads alive if used right. I like to put grey knights in chimeras with every character I can (ups the psyker count) and then walk him behind the chimeras until I spot a nice juicy target. With the upgunned number of shots, re-rolls because of BS 8, AP 1, and S 5 he can easily take out an entire 5 man squad in one round of shooting.

[Sonikgav]

For Cheese in the Inquisition army I plan on building I am going to take a Vindicare and a Celluxus, sitting next to my full psyker squad. (His special rule still doesn't discount psykers in your own unit.)

Personally, I can handle the fact that I can no longer shoot in CC with the Vindicare. I love how my ammo is no longer limited. His BS of 8 is a fair tradeoff for this. I love being able to re-roll the 1's I always seem to roll with them. I believe the re-roll is on a 4+? Hitting is no problem with this unit at least.

Um the Culexus + Psyker henchmen Squad doesnt actually work anymore.

The Psyker henchmen dont actually have the Psyker special rule. Brotherhood Rule gives the Grey Knight units the rule and anything that doesnt have that but needs it (Like the Inquisitors or Coteaz) have the actual Psyker rule, or can be upgraded to have it as well as their appropriate mastery.

The Henchmen Psykers are non Psyker models capable of making a Psychic based attack.

Unless you plan on bunching all your units around the Culexus then i dont think its gonna be getting the amount of shots your expecting.

[DirePilgrim]

Agreed - use my Vindicare religiously with my GK army - terrific utility long range unit

wish he was more survivable, but seems a fluffy and reasonable trade-off to have him as a solitary figure

[Malkavschilde]

That is amazing!

[Tynskel]

Um the Culexus + Psyker henchmen Squad doesnt actually work anymore.

The Psyker henchmen dont actually have the Psyker special rule. Brotherhood Rule gives the Grey Knight units the rule and anything that doesnt have that but needs it (Like the Inquisitors or Coteaz) have the actual Psyker rule, or can be upgraded to have it as well as their appropriate mastery.

The Henchmen Psykers are non Psyker models capable of making a Psychic based attack.

Unless you plan on bunching all your units around the Culexus then i dont think its gonna be getting the amount of shots your expecting.

Oh I miss the days of colonel schaeffer and his 20 psykers following a culuxes. Especially when fighting tyranid warrior armies!

[troglodytesrus]

Oh I miss the days of colonel schaeffer and his 20 psykers following a culuxes. Especially when fighting tyranid warrior armies!

lmao, would have loved to have seen that.

[Coyote81]

Hmmm I hadn't heard. But I was interested on that aspect so I delved into my books some. So with the idea that you don't think psyker henchmen count as psykers lets talk about the main rule book. The main rule book says that psykers can use one psychic power per turn. and explains how this action is done. In the Gk codex, the henchman's shooting attack is listed under psychic powers. Therefore I have to assume if you have a psychic power and your not a psyker then you couldn't use your power. Silly thought. But I think since they do have a psychic power then despite not having the rule psyker listed, they have to be psykers.

[Sonikgav]

Hmmm I hadn't heard. But I was interested on that aspect so I delved into my books some. So with the idea that you don't think psyker henchmen count as psykers lets talk about the main rule book. The main rule book says that psykers can use one psychic power per turn. and explains how this action is done. In the Gk codex, the henchman's shooting attack is listed under psychic powers. Therefore I have to assume if you have a psychic power and your not a psyker then you couldn't use your power. Silly thought. But I think since they do have a psychic power then despite not having the rule psyker listed, they have to be psykers.

Not silly at all. They are capable of making a Psychic attack based on a Psychic test. However that doesnt mean theyre Psykers. They dont have the rule or any caveat that subs in for it. Otherwise you'd see Coteaz, 6 full units of Psyker Henchmen Surrounding a Culexus and annihilating armies single handidly.

The wording of your argument says it all. Yes, Psykers can make Psychic attacks, but making a psychic attack does not necessarily mean that the model is a Psyker. It does at least mean theyre immune to things like mind strike missiles, they only take perils when they fail their own attack. Much like the vehicles only being Psykers for the sake of using their power.

The only other unit capable of using Psychic abilities that doesnt have the Psyker rule are Grey Knight vehicles and they have the Psychic Pilot rule to get around this and importantly, its been FAQ'd that these units only count as Psykers in regards to making their tests. At all other times they arent. To me this says its a deliberate omission as to include it would make said Culexus based lists rediculous.

[bfmusashi]

If you ran Coteaz and 6 full squads of psyker henchmen you would only get 7 extra shots out of the animus speculum (one for coteaz and one for each squad) as described on pages 51 and 53.

[dreadnaughtguy]

Not silly at all. They are capable of making a Psychic attack based on a Psychic test. However that doesnt mean theyre Psykers. They dont have the rule or any caveat that subs in for it. Otherwise you'd see Coteaz, 6 full units of Psyker Henchmen Surrounding a Culexus and annihilating armies single handidly.

The wording of your argument says it all. Yes, Psykers can make Psychic attacks, but making a psychic attack does not necessarily mean that the model is a Psyker. It does at least mean theyre immune to things like mind strike missiles, they only take perils when they fail their own attack. Much like the vehicles only being Psykers for the sake of using their power.

The only other unit capable of using Psychic abilities that doesnt have the Psyker rule are Grey Knight vehicles and they have the Psychic Pilot rule to get around this and importantly, its been FAQ'd that these units only count as Psykers in regards to making their tests. At all other times they arent. To me this says its a deliberate omission as to include it would make said Culexus based lists rediculous.

You are way off on this. A squad of psykers is a psyker and has a psychic shooting attack. They don't give extra shots to the clexus because they only count as one psyker per their rules. They are vulnerable to mind strike missiles and it would cause a perils of the warp for all the models per their rules.

[DarkLink]

Otherwise you'd see Coteaz, 6 full units of Psyker Henchmen Surrounding a Culexus and annihilating armies single handidly.


Even if you did assume that the Culexus could actually get all 60+ shots, he can only shoot one unit at a time and no competent opponent will ever let him take more than one shot. Killing one squad really, really dead then dying doesn't win games. And Psyker henchmen squads aren't anything special on their own due to their lack of reliability.





The Vindicare suffers from the same problem. Some of the people here might like him, and he might perform well enough in casual, friendly games with average players, but try taking him to the top tables at a tournament and he becomes effectively worthless.

[Sonikgav]

You are way off on this. A squad of psykers is a psyker and has a psychic shooting attack. They don't give extra shots to the clexus because they only count as one psyker per their rules. They are vulnerable to mind strike missiles and it would cause a perils of the warp for all the models per their rules.

Show me where they have the Psyker rule? Just cos they can make a Psychic attack doesn't automatically make them Psykers. There's not a model in that unit that would provide benefit to the Culexus.

[dreadnaughtguy]

brb pp.50

These powers vary from race to race and sometimes from one individual psyker to another. The psychic powers availale to our models are not discussed further here, but are described in detail in the Codexes, where you will find complete rules for individual powers.

codex GK pp.51

Only one Psychic Barrage is 'fired', regardless of the number of psykers in the squad. All psykers in the same unit are treated as a single psyker for the purposes of Pshchic tests, ets, and use their own Leadership value, not that of any attached characters.

Psychers have psychic power, a squad of psykers counts as a single psyker... please explain how you have a leg to stand on. This is about as clear cut as you can get.

[burning crome]

The Culexus assassin one of few thing left to be cleared up for the GK.
So the consensus here is that psykers battle squads only count as one psykers
So it follows that GK squads with brotherhood of psykers also only count as one per squad. With independent character with mastery levels, and vehicle with the psychic pilot rule adding another one to the total.
The real unanswered one is where or not daemonhost still count as psykers as they did in the last edition.

[dreadnaughtguy]

A demon host does not have a psychic shooting attack, nor any psychic powers. They operate like demons and are wierd effects that count as shooting attacks.

[Sonikgav]

The Culexus assassin one of few thing left to be cleared up for the GK.
So the consensus here is that psykers battle squads only count as one psykers
So it follows that GK squads with brotherhood of psykers also only count as one per squad. With independent character with mastery levels, and vehicle with the psychic pilot rule adding another one to the total.
The real unanswered one is where or not daemonhost still count as psykers as they did in the last edition.

GK Vehicles don't count. That's in the FAQ that GK vehicles, that can use Psychic powers and can suffer perils as per Psykers etc don't count as Psykers outside of using their powers, all because the GK players *****ed about their vehicles being vulnerable to anti psyker abilities etc. To me they count as Psykers when casting but not in other situations.

[DarkLink]

So the consensus here is that psykers battle squads only count as one psykers

The codex explicitly states this, so the consensus better be this.



So it follows that GK squads with brotherhood of psykers also only count as one per squad.

GK squads only count as one psyker, but not because of this logic here. They count as one psyker because, completely independently of the battle psyker rules, the Brotherhood of Psykers rule explicitly states that they only count as one psyker.



The real unanswered one is where or not daemonhost still count as psykers as they did in the last edition.

Why would rules from last edition have any bearing on the current rules? Do daemonhosts have any psychic powers, or any rule that states they are a psyker? No? Then they aren't.

[bfmusashi]

GK Vehicles don't count. That's in the FAQ that GK vehicles, that can use Psychic powers and can suffer perils as per Psykers etc don't count as Psykers outside of using their powers, all because the GK players *****ed about their vehicles being vulnerable to anti psyker abilities etc. To me they count as Psykers when casting but not in other situations.

I didn't see that in the quick glance I took at the GK FAQ. Could you point it out?

[Sonikgav]

I cant find it either but i know i read it in there.....thats odd.

Everyone was complaining that Mindstrike Missiles or the Dark Eldar Psyker Death thingy were taking out Land Raiders etc too easily so it was mentioned. Now im confused.

[Lucian Kain]

I don't know what the other "thingy" is but mind strike missiles are S,4. and strength 6 with no saves against psykers so the most armour it can penetrate is 11,glance 12. land raiders are invulnerable against them.

What are you on about

[Sonikgav]

There was something, i think in the Dark Eldar codex that automatically makes all Psykers take a perils hit which i think is what Mindstrikes do too. The GK vehicle would then take a Perils hit etc.

[DarkLink]

I believe that you're looking for the Doom of Malan'tai ruling, from the 'nidz FAQ. IIRC, they specify GK vehicles don't count as psykers so they don't have to worry about that whole mess.


I don't know what the other "thingy" is but mind strike missiles are S,4. and strength 6 with no saves against psykers so the most armour it can penetrate is 11,glance 12.

Wrong, actually. They're only ever Str 4. Perils of the Warp does not have a strength value, it simply automatically wounds. 4th ed was like four years ago.

[burning crome]

I believe that you're looking for the Doom of Malan'tai ruling, from the 'nidz FAQ. IIRC, they specify GK vehicles don't count as psykers so they don't have to worry about that whole mess.


Hmmm didn't know they didn't count. seems an odd ruling but there you go!

[Sonikgav]

This is what bugs me about the current game. You need to check every bloody FAQ just to work out how your own army works.

And yeah thanks for the reference. I dunno if they mentioned Psyker Henchmen there either lol

[DarkLink]

My bad, I was actually think of the DE Crucible of Malediction ruling, and all it says is that it doesn't affect vehicles that are psykers so it doesn't answer the question. Got it mixed up with the other rulings over Doom of Malan'tai.