Do we have it wrong about the Dais? Dark eldar players, get in here!

[thecactusman17]

So I've been thinking a lot recently. Not just 40k, but seeing things from a new perspective in general. And I started to think about the Dais of Destruction. And I started to take note of a few things.

First off, let's acknowledge the three most hideous flaws about the Dais: it does not have the "Aerial Assault" rule, it cannot take upgrades, and to get it you must spend an utterly unbelievable 440 points plus a 9-model group to stuff inside.

In fairness, many players (myself included) look at that last bit and just walk away. And really, who can blame them?

But is it possible that we are giving the Dais undo criticism? Try this on for size instead as a descriptor:

The Dais of Destruction is a 440 point dedicated transport that fulfills multiple game roles: HQ selection, heavy gunship, fast transport, and heavy armor. The requisite point cost gives you unparallelled shooting, close combat, and mobility relative to any other transport in the game while simultaneously filling the HQ slot of your army and adding one dedicated transport to your army.

When we look at the cost of the Dais relative to a Ravager with Nightshield and Flickerfield, we are indeed at a significant disadvantage. But when we compare to a ravager AND a Raider with the same upgrades, they are nearly identical in price. The loss of the NS/FF combo is offset by the significantly higher armor value and the additional mobile darklances.

How would yours truly run this unit for maximum pain? Let's try:

Adrusabael Vect
Dais of Destruction

Kabalite Trueborn (x9)
4 Blasters
2 Splinter Cannons
3 Shardcarbines

643 points. For 7 darklight shots, 17 splinter shots and the most accurate small blast in the game on the move, in addition to the heaviest armor in the codex. Vect, of course, can also solo most enemy units by himself on the charge.

[scrap square]

dont
dont even bring this thing up, just stop...

[Ulthwé Guardian]

At last a forum member willing to back up one of the most disliked units in the Dark Eldar Codex.

I think structured your argument well, scaling up the pros and cons effectively. If you make a comparison with a Blood Angel Storm Raven, the cost is fairly relative. Admittedly the Storm Raven has plenty of other perks to justify it's expense.

I like the idea of adding Kabalite Trueborn to the Dais, in the past I've only considered using assault units i.e. Wyches, Incubi, Court of the Archon etc...

Personally I've got future plans to build Dais of Destruction and a Asdrubael Vect type model, even if is no good he and the Dais will make a great centre piece to an army.

[eldargal]

I only use SCs occassionally in Apocalypse games and I've found the dias reasonably useful in that context. I have to admit I don't think it would be particularly useful in a regular game but like most things in the DE codex it could well be down to personal opinion. I've found Mandrakes useful, for example, despite the internet wisdom saying they are rubbish. Though to be fair I would rather take bloodbrides or incubi over mandrakes.

[Necron_Lord]

But how would you play it? You have a CC beast who costs over 200 points with a shooty unit which will be hanging back or going to an 18" range. As you said it doesn't have FF or NS, and it won't be getting any 4+ cover save for moving flat out. By bundling, you put several eggs in one basket which means that it will draw more shots at it.

I still only see it in Apocalypse games for aesthetic and fluff reasons, from a gaming perspective it is Tesco pants that have been thrown in the gutter, puked upon and that no tramp would touch with a ten foot pole, i.e. total rubbish.

[MMEagle]

Intresting idea, I actualy find the Dias quite useful on some occasions, and the points you bring up are very good. But I would never use it an army smaller than around 3k, 2.5k at a push.

[AbusePuppy]

The Dais of Destruction is a 440 point dedicated transport that fulfills multiple game roles: HQ selection, heavy gunship, fast transport, and heavy armor. The requisite point cost gives you unparallelled shooting,
Unless you count all of the other shooting the DE army, which can fairly easily trump it for the cost.


close combat,
Except for the members on board who aren't Vect, because all of them are pretty bad in CC.


and mobility relative to any other transport in the game while simultaneously filling the HQ slot of your army and adding one dedicated transport to your army.
Mobility? Without the Aerial Assault rule or similar? Really? DE don't lack for good HQ choices and all of them are much, much, much cheaper than trying to bring the Dais. Want another transport? Pay 55pts and get a Venom or 60 and get a Raider. Don't pay 400 and get... this thing.


When we look at the cost of the Dais relative to a Ravager with Nightshield and Flickerfield, we are indeed at a significant disadvantage. But when we compare to a ravager AND a Raider with the same upgrades, they are nearly identical in price. The loss of the NS/FF combo is offset by the significantly higher armor value and the additional mobile darklances.
What? What does this even mean? The Dais doesn't have the survivability OR the firepower of a Ravager plus a Raider. Why on earth are you trying to make that comparison? AV13 is cute, but two vehicle hulls with Flicker or Night on them is infinitely better. It's harder to stunlock or kill two vehicles, two vehicles can fire at two different targets, two vehicles can be in two different places, etc.

The Dais is just awful compared to your other options in the codex. If you've already filled all your HS, EL, FA, TR, and HQ slots and, um... still need to spend more points I guess you could take it, but how often do you play 3500pt games with only one FoC?

How would yours truly run this unit for maximum pain? Let's try:

Adrusabael Vect
Dais of Destruction

Kabalite Trueborn (x9)
4 Blasters
2 Splinter Cannons
3 Shardcarbines

643 points. For 7 darklight shots, 17 splinter shots and the most accurate small blast in the game on the move, in addition to the heaviest armor in the codex. Vect, of course, can also solo most enemy units by himself on the charge.[/QUOTE]

[thecactusman17]

Unless you count all of the other shooting the DE army, which can fairly easily trump it for the cost.


This would be true if it weren't for the fact that all of those units have an 18" maximum engagement window. The Dais, thanks to its longer range, can choose to engage at multiple ranges and multiple threats when an anti-tank squad is inside. Vect himself is an EXCELLENT shooting model with a powerful ability that wounds most enemy models on 2+ and a smaller handful on 3+ and 4+. It punches through power armor and is almost impossible to miss with. This is in addition to his well-demonstrated propensity for wiping units off the board single-handedly. Last night he ran down a 20 model Necron squad that included an overlord and multiple models with Mindshackle Scarabs.

When we look at the Dais alone, the reality is that it is costed on par with a Stormraven, the extra points we factor in are the requisite character slot. A stormraven, in many player's eyes, is an honest choice at just over the same point level and many players use them to win games. The Stormraven DOES have perks that the Dais doesn't, but it can't honestly say that it doesn't have its own flaws. The Dais is a much smaller target if you use either the old model or convert a new one. It transports models that on average are far better in the assault or shooting phase against most targets. Yes, you COULD run Venom Spam and have a bunch of piddly little 12-shot hailstones that don't actually do jack all to enemy armor, or you can have at least three units that usually do a fine job handling armor and anti-infantry just fine on their own, thank you.

Think this through--you are dismissing the unit out of hand because of points and I'm trying to say that no, it's actually just about as good a deal when you factor in more than just the dice.

[DapperDave]

The big problem I see with it, is any opponent is going to have ways of dealing with AV13 - which would normally be overkill on DE skimmers... but by taking the Dias you're giving them a more optimal target for their expensive firepower.

[schulzed]

I think its just too many points to justify... to be fair, I haven't run it yet, as I'm fairly new to DE. But, I tend to think that your comparison to two seperate vehicles combined into one isn't equal. Two vehicles are usually better than one, even if they aren't as sturdy. All it takes is one lucky shot to take it out.

[Charybdis]

Sorry, just not buying the viability of the dias... its just too risky, putting 600+ pts into a single unit...

Doesn't facilitate the DE playstyle, at least for me.

[Transgressor]

The big problem I see with it, is any opponent is going to have ways of dealing with AV13 - which would normally be overkill on DE skimmers... but by taking the Dias you're giving them a more optimal target for their expensive firepower.

This... a million times this.

The whole advantage of DE vehicles is having so many weak transports it's overwhelming for the opponent and they have to make hard choices about target priority. Putting this on the board makes priority easy. Granted you could abuse that and keep it in cover but then you'll likely miss out on the transport functionality.

Also there's all those armies with deepstriking melta guns who are really hurt by the reduced range from the nightshields and are kinda wasted on AV10-11. Now they have a really nice target if the Dias is around and you're very likely to lose it from an AP1 shot.

[Anggul]

Or you could have many more ravagers/reavers/scourges/just about anything. The Dais is, sadly, awful, no amount of reasoning will change that.

[Krayd]

The Dais would be great... against any army with little or no anti-tank firepower.

So, if you happen to find that one person who insists upon playing their melta-free SoB list, then I think that you'll be good to go. ;)

[bbangley]

The dias seems cool and I can see it being alright...but I'm still pretty sure that 2 ravagers for nearly the same cost will do you more good. Dark Eldar pay points for purely offence. If you blow up everything that can hurt you, who cares if you have the option for 2 pips higher armor? I like that the dias gives some flexability being a transport and a gunship, but that means it's doing neither of those to its full potential each time and therefore not making up for its points cost.

[BS FADE]

The Dias does work great with Vect because your almost always going first and the Dais basically adds another Ravagers worth of shooting to your list.

The problem is Vect has to be in it. Vect has a good shooting attack but that’s not what he's really good at. He needs to get to the enemies lines and cut some people. The Dais can turbo boast turn one and be really hard to get rid of with armor 13 and 4+ cover save, though you have to realize you might have just put yourself into melta range. Meltas are those guns that don’t care about your armor 13 and if they get past your cover save the Dais will die. To me this is not 200 points worth spending if it can easily buy another fully loaded raider of something.