GW prices.

[Thornblood]

Just wanted to put this one to rest.

I have hated GW price increments, and the rise of toy soldiers and hobby extras has risen faster than inflation.

However.

A family relation of mine did quite well on London Transport (an essential service prone to price hikes) and had at one point to come up with a very very complex algorithm to do with price increases. Essentially he had to work out how much revenue was lost when prices were put in versus how much profit was made and where was 'too much'.

Similarly GW are arguably the leading manufacturer of this war games hobby. In the last decade or so we have seen severe recession in the west and GW has thrown some if its customer service and more family/friendly manners in favour for a more professional and more ruthless business model, which is not surprising seeing that they are a business.

Also, GW stores (in the UK at least) have been asked to destroy overstock of certain products (most notably vast amounts of black library books) rather than reduce to clear. This is a common business model amongst premium products- no reductions, the prices are correct and we would rather destroy stock than reduce it, because we can afford to and selling a few items at a high price which are cheap to produce is easier on the company overheads (shipping, staffing, manufacturing etc) than selling lots of products at a cheap price which are cheap to produce.

I.e. the budget supermarket struggles to make profit everyday, whereas the car showroom makes alot fewer sales and a much bigger profit per person.

GW is like the Harrods of mini wargaming. It costs alot, and that's part of the appeal. (In fact in Harrods GW products cost more than the rrp).

Whilst I am angry at GW for pricing issues, I think they can justify them in business terms. They are, after all the market leaders. (Im not saying therers not other amazing mini wargaming companies that might be turning more of a % profit, but GW are the giants here).

Update and edit-

Summary of this massive beast of a thread:
Essentially someone complains how GW can justify their prices. Someone else explains that GW justify it (or maybe don't have to justify it) because people buy it. Very occasionally we talk about GW overheads and marketing, staffing distribution and stock markets and business stuff. Sometimes people ask why other things cheap to manufacture (like computer games and DVD's) cost so much when the raw materials of dvds (simply picked from a tree or however they are made) cost so little. Then we talk about production and overheads again. Sometimes we talk about elitism, sometimes we say that the price is right because people buy it. We repeat the same arguments alot. Sometimes someone says something stupid, and sometimes that offends people and we end up in a different cycle of ethical arguments. Mostly we are all upset at GW prices and divided between the 'its not fair' camp and the 'its not essential, if you cant buy it, dont' camp. This summary uses vast generalisations.

Before Posting:
Please read the summary above in Red, if your argument has been covered, even if it is not to your satisfaction, don't worry about it. Someone else can wave that flag for you, just go and enjoy the painting and modelling galleries, content in the knowledge that someone else it getting upset and worked up over your point for you. I don't see many people having a fun or constructive conversation in this thread, and I somewhat regret making it in the first place.

[Necron2.0]

I wouldn't expect this to put anything to rest, sorry to say. It is not that I don't agree with you necessarily, but rather it is that the justifications do not matter. After all, I can quite easily justify indiscriminate wholesale murder, but that does not make it right, and it certainly does not mean anyone should take my justifications to heart. GW charges what they do because the can. Rapists do what they do because they can. There should be no get comfortable with either one.

I get that it becomes tedious hearing the same arguments over and over on why GW is overpriced. GW IS overpriced, and we all know that's not going to change. Likewise, people aren't going to stop complaining about it. My advice would be, if anyone is tired of hearing it, tune it out. Realistically, that's all that anyone can do.

[wittdooley]

Just wanted to put this to rest what gave you the delusion any of this would?


Similarly GW are arguably the leading manufacturer of this war games hobby. In the last decade or so we have seen severe recession in the west and GW has thrown some if its customer service and more family/friendly manners in favour for a more professional and more ruthless business model, which is not surprising seeing that they are a business.

There's no arguably. They are. And their customer service is the best in the business. Wtf does "family friendly manners" even frakking mean in relation to business? They're a public company. Their goal is to make money with said business.


Also, GW stores (in the UK at least) have been asked to destroy overstock of certain products (most notably vast amounts of black library books) rather than reduce to clear. This is a common business model amongst premium products- no reductions, the prices are correct and we would rather destroy stock than reduce it, because we can afford to and selling a few items at a high price which are cheap to produce is easier on the company overheads (shipping, staffing, manufacturing etc) than selling lots of products at a cheap price which are cheap to produce.

Don't pretend this is purely GW. This is common practice with EVERY publishing company.



I.e. the budget supermarket struggles to make profit everyday, whereas the car showroom makes alot fewer sales and a much bigger profit per person.

Way to compare apples to automobiles. Wtf. What bearing does this have on, oh, anything?




GW is like the Harrods of mini wargaming. It costs alot, and that's part of the appeal. (In fact in Harrods GW products cost more than the rrp).


Assuming Harrods is a 'high end' store, who cares. Don't shop there. GW has nothing to do with how Harrods prices their merch.



Whilst I am angry at GW for pricing issues, I think they can justify them in business terms. They are, after all the market leaders. (Im not saying therers not other amazing mini wargaming companies that might be turning more of a % profit, but GW are the giants here).

Well, congrats on Being angry. Beyond wanting to express that I can't find the purpose of this post, unless it's to be asinine or start a flame war. Either way, mission accomplished.

To quote billy madison-- "[I] am now dumber for having [read] that. I award you no [internets], and may god have mercy on your soul"

[Uncle Nutsy]

clicked on this thread thinking 'hey it's another one of these threads!"

i wasn't disappointed. :)

[Wildeybeast]

I wouldn't expect this to put anything to rest, sorry to say. It is not that I don't agree with you necessarily, but rather it is that the justifications do not matter. After all, I can quite easily justify indiscriminate wholesale murder, but that does not make it right, and it certainly does not mean anyone should take my justifications to heart. GW charges what they do because the can. Rapists do what they do because they can. There should be no get comfortable with either one.

I get that it becomes tedious hearing the same arguments over and over on why GW is overpriced. GW IS overpriced, and we all know that's not going to change. Likewise, people aren't going to stop complaining about it. My advice would be, if anyone is tired of hearing it, tune it out. Realistically, that's all that anyone can do.



You are comparing GW to rapists and murderers? Did you even think before wrote such a moronic post?

[gendoikari87]

People. It's plastic.

[phoenix01]

People. It's plastic crack.

There, fixed it for you.

[Necron2.0]

For the record, I did not compare GW to murderers. I simply made the point you can justify pretty much anything.

As for the other, go talk to the Australians. :D

[Grenadier]

I lament the prices of GW models and lose a little love for the game each time they increase. Since I am consider poor I can only afford so much to spend on the hobby. And when I plan an army not only do I factor in the usual factors we players have but I also factor in the cost. For me price is the biggest factor when I build an army and choose units for it. Consequently I try to get the most for the least. And this doesn't even cover paints and tools of the trade.

An example: the current price of a single metal Ogryn is $22.25. A basic squad can be up to 3 Ogryns. So that comes to 66.75 for a whopping three models. And you can add an additional 7 models for a squad of 10. If one were to do so they're looking at shelling out $222.25. Now imagine if you wanted all three of your elite choices to be full squads of Ogryns: $666.75! Aside from whether or not a choice like this is sensible for an Imperial Guard army the fact remains the cost of these models alone are ridiculous. As for me I love the Ogyns most out of my Guard army and only field 5 of them. I'll never field anymore.

$22.25 for a few ounces of metal?!?

I've learned something about this game when money is your biggest concern: armies with low point models require many more models than those with high points. So if I wanted to field 2500 points to combat a Space Marine army of the same number of points I'm looking at needing many many more models than the Marine player. And thus low point armies cost you more money to build than high point armies.

And I don't even want to get into Finecast and the prices of. To date I've not bought a single Finecast model.

I know GW is a business but they've become so mercenary of late. I miss the days when I had a rules problem I could call them up for an answer. Or when they had a forum on their website. Even their customer service isn't what it used to be. Remember when you could scour their site and order the precise bits you want? Gone now.

So I wonder. How much does it cost GW to produce an Ogryn? Or any other model? How much in material, paying employees, packaging, etc does it cost them? How much of a profit are they getting off each model?

[Wildeybeast]

For the record, I did not compare GW to murderers. I simply made the point you can justify pretty much anything.

As for the other, go talk to the Australians. :D


True, you merely implied it, but you did directly compare them to rapists.


GW charges what they do because the can. Rapists do what they do because they can.

Not sure why you think rape is something that should be referred to with a smiley face.
You compared the 'unjustifiable' (in your opinion) actions of GW with those of rapists and murders. I find that to not only be stupid but deeply offensive, as I'm sure would anyone who has suffered as a result of murder or rape and indeed any GW employees or shareholders. Express your views on GW being overpriced by all means, but if you could try and provide some actual reasons for this view and leave the stupid, crass and offensive comparisons out of it, that'd be swell.

[eldargal]

Rape is against the law, corporations are compelled by law to do all they cane to remain profitable.

[wittdooley]

And I don't even want to get into Finecast and the prices of. To date I've not bought a single Finecast model.


You're missing out on some great models, then.

[Cherub]

I have no problem with their prices, its a lot cheaper than all the FW that I buy.

[Grenadier]

Considering I play Imperial Guard and Black Templars there's very little for them in Finecast. Especially the Guard. It'd be sweet if Ogryns get the Finecast treatment. As it is I already have the models that do exist for them in Finecast. And I can't justify replacing them for those yet as I still have more units to get for both armies. Nah, I think I'll get into Finecast whenever I get around to doing a Dark Eldar army. Those look great!


You're missing out on some great models, then.

[Necron2.0]

Not sure why you think rape is something that should be referred to with a smiley face.

So you admit that the Australians are being raped by GW. Thank you, made my point.

And like I said, nothing is being laid to rest here.

[Thornblood]

Maybe I wanted somewhere to vent- in which Im sorry.

On the other hand I was trying (and apparently failing) to explain why GW prices are so high and create a thread where the reasons can be discussed allowing other conversation topics to have an opt out to be redirected here rather than having pages and pages of it amongst otherwise quite fun forum chatting. However this is a touchier subject than I first imagined. I did in my first post do a lot of stating the obvious, which, at one point during my life wasn't obvious and was unknown to me.

However I think the rape reference blew this out of proportion off topic and into dangerous territories.

So overall, I think this post was a massive fail on my part, Im sorry to waste your time. Can we let it die and get it off the front page plz?

[Verilance]

quick math based on minimum wage per country

Australians have to work 3.17 hours to buy a box of Ork Boyz
Canadians have to work 3.39 hours
Americans have to work 4 hours
Brits get the best deal having to work 2.9 hours

and the poor Japanese have to work 4.8 hours for the same box of Ork Boyz

seems to me based on wages per country GW prices are not unreasonable and I am sure that is what they base their prices on

[wittdooley]

Most likely is.

And GW sets their price points where they do because they are in the business to make money.

[eldargal]

Under no circumstances can a company charging what they think they can get for a product in a market where 100% an upwards mark ups are the norm on imported products be legitimately compared to a horrific act of violence against women. Or sometimes men.


So you admit that the Australians are being raped by GW. Thank you, made my point.

And like I said, nothing is being laid to rest here.

[Deadlift]

On a positive note GW price rises have improved my painting 10 fold :)

[Necron2.0]

Under no circumstances can ....

Ha! Under ever circumstance it can ... and usually is:
>>Example 1<< (http://www.sodahead.com/united-states/no-apology-for-rape-an-pillage-of-american-taxpayers-see-video-to-the-left/question-2424199/)
>>Example 2<< (http://www.maggiesnotebook.com/2011/01/congress-and-ge-robs-rapes-and-pillages-america-video/)
>>Example 3<< (http://lewrockwell.com/holland/holland47.1.html)

And again, corporations and rapists abuse their circumstances for the exact same reason - because they can. People can ascribe all sorts of justifications to it, like draping frilly purity seals from a psychopathic thrill-killer, but that does not change the nature of the beast - not one iota.

[eldargal]

Under no circumstance is it legitimate, that applies to your examples. It is equal parts insensitive, immature and idiotic.

Corporations do what they do because they are compelled by law and self interest to be profitable. In no way are they like rapists. There is no element of force, for a start. No corporation is forcing you to buy their products, you have a choice. Rapists don't give you a choice. God knows there are plenty of monstrous corporations out there, and perhaps some may be considered rapists for what they do, say, native labour in Africa. But GW is certainly not one of them, and for those that are pricing for Western consumers certainly isn't one of the reasons.:)

[Necron2.0]

So you're saying it's more like they're just fornicating under command of king, then.
:D

[doom-kitten]

Sorry to beat a dead horse here but I've always thought these games where a luxury, as far as I am aware you don't require GW products to live, I could be wrong and if I am, that is so sad the phrase 'epicly sad' would be very correct. I pretty much compare complaining about model prices to whining about the price of your shiny new Porsche, you'll always get the same advice when you start throwing these complaints about prices which is in a nutshell, 'Suck it up or GTFO'.

GW doesn't care that we hate the prices and their going to keep throwing smexy models in our faces and we'll keep paying for them it's a cold hard fact, and no it's not murder or...rape (WTF), it's plain old business and it's what every other successful company does. I'm pretty sure rapists don't charge afterwards but hey I could be wrong.

[Necron2.0]

Sorry to beat a dead horse here but I've always thought these games where a luxury....

Yes, to be sure. This game (like all games) is completely a luxury, and as such GW can charge as much as they want, even when it's completely outrageous. That is pretty much understood by everyone. What boggles my mind is the number of people who eagerly run forward every time to try and justify the prices, trying to say it's not unreasonable. Of COURSE it's unreasonable - based on the quality of their products and what else is available on the market, it is completely unreasonable. Still, people will pay it, so GW keeps doing what they do. If they can stay in business doing it, fine - good for them. But that won't stop people from complaining, nor should it.

[wittdooley]

Of COURSE it's unreasonable - based on the quality of their products and what else is available on the market, it is completely unreasonable. Still, people will pay it, so GW keeps doing what they do. If they can stay in business doing it, fine - good for them. But that won't stop people from complaining, nor should it.



I'm sorry... how does that follow

[gendoikari87]

Not sure why you think rape is something that should be referred to with a smiley face.
You compared the 'unjustifiable' (in your opinion) actions of GW with those of rapists and murders. I find that to not only be stupid but deeply offensive, as I'm sure would anyone who has suffered as a result of murder or rape and indeed any GW employees or shareholders. Express your views on GW being overpriced by all means, but if you could try and provide some actual reasons for this view and leave the stupid, crass and offensive comparisons out of it, that'd be swell.I don't know i find the corporate model and wage slavery more offensive than rape, neither are good, and rape is definately monstrous, but so is the corporate model.

But there is nothing we can do about the corporate model, the keep stealing, and we keep giving, so smile and accept your masters. :)


Yes, to be sure. This game (like all games) is completely a luxury, and as such GW can charge as much as they want, even when it's completely outrageous

Yes and a 20,000 dollar bottle of water is a luxury, doesn't make it right to charge that much for it. (and no, that's not pulled out my ***, there really is a 20,000 dollar bottle of water.)

[wittdooley]

Yes and a 20,000 dollar bottle of water is a luxury, doesn't make it right to charge that much for it. (and no, that's not pulled out my ***, there really is a 20,000 dollar bottle of water.)

Then. Don't. Buy. It.

No one is forcing you to buy a damn thing. I've you think it's priced to high, don't buy it. If you can't afford it, don't buy it.

FFS.

[gendoikari87]

Rape is against the law, corporations are compelled by law to do all they cane to remain profitable.

Yes, stealing farmers crops, putting pus in our milk, stealing rainwater from the most impoverished of the impoverished, Fixing prices, and buying off politicians to make all of that legal and and start wars in the middle east to protect your assets in the middle east, is legal.

[gendoikari87]

Then. Don't. Buy. It.

No one is forcing you to buy a damn thing. I've you think it's priced to high, don't buy it. If you can't afford it, don't buy it.

FFS.

Do you even know what kind of resources it take to make that? What kind of resources they're sucking up with that? it's not about the money, it's about the economics of using a vast amount of resources for something so trivial when people are starving because you outsourced their job to china for workers who are paid pennies an hour just so you can have a 20,000 dollar bottle of water encrusted with diamonds that your just going to throw away.

[gendoikari87]

There is no element of force, for a start. No corporation is forcing you to buy their products, you have a choice.No eldergal, you have the illusion of choice. Just as you have the illusion of freedom. Now with things like GW, you might in fact have a small degree of choice, but food, water, your own labor? those are things where you only have the illusion of choice.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7G4WIa-HAk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJikG-p_nho

[wittdooley]

No eldergal, you have the illusion of choice. Just as you have the illusion of freedom. Now with things like GW, you might in fact have a small degree of choice, but food, water, your own labor? those are things where you only have the illusion of choice.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7G4WIa-HAk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJikG-p_nho

That's some of the dumbest shyte I've ever heard.

I have plenty of choice. On Friday/Saturday I'll CHOOSE to purchase the space wolf stuff and not any of the nid stuff.

This morning, I CHOSE to eat a scone from Panera instead of eat something I had already purchased at home. But when I grocery shop, I also have the choice of what to buy when I get there. I spent $35 bucks yesterday on fancy meats and cheeses to watch the Oscars. It was a choice. I didn't need them. They were luxury items.

It's not Porsche, or Maybach, or GWs onus to give two flying fraks about how many people are starving. They release premium products to appeal to a high end buyer to bring in their high end income.

Your expensive, diamond encrusted bottle of water is a luxury item. No one is forced to buy it.

Jesus, man. Some of what you're spouting is so ignorant it's concerning.

[gendoikari87]

That's some of the dumbest shyte I've ever heard.

I have plenty of choice. On Friday/Saturday I'll CHOOSE to purchase the space wolf stuff and not any of the nid stuff.

This morning, I CHOSE to eat a scone from Panera instead of eat something I had already purchased at home. But when I grocery shop, I also have the choice of what to buy when I get there. I spent $35 bucks yesterday on fancy meats and cheeses to watch the Oscars. It was a choice. I didn't need them. They were luxury items.

It's not Porsche, or Maybach, or GWs onus to give two flying fraks about how many people are starving. They release premium products to appeal to a high end buyer to bring in their high end income.

Your expensive, diamond encrusted bottle of water is a luxury item. No one is forced to buy it.

Jesus, man. Some of what you're spouting is so ignorant it's concerning.

Right back at you man. People like you are so short sighted they can't see beyond their next purchase and look at the big picture. I can see talking to you will be fruitless. Go educate yourself and then we can talk.

[Thornblood]

Sadly, as is the case the world over, we are all victims of circumstance.

Your choices are only those available to you.

Your choices within buying Games Workshop's products are many and varied. Money has the potential to be used for almost anything, and by buying GW products you are handing that potential to GW. This is fine. The fact that they want of money for their products is fine as well. You don't have to buy them if you don't want GW to have your money. Ebay is pretty good you can do the whole hobby through pre- owned models (heck I get so few models painted its probably gonna be the only way I ever field a fully painted army).

I like that this thread has become maybe a bit conceptual and we are pondering the big problems with society and a capitalist hobby that we struggle to afford. But nothing will come of it, this is simply musings for the sake of musings. So can we keep it civil please?

[wittdooley]

Right back at you man. People like you are so short sighted they can't see beyond their next purchase and look at the big picture. I can see talking to you will be fruitless. Go educate yourself and then we can talk.

Educate myself about what? Finance? Investing?

You're talking about 20K bottles of water and then relating that to starving children. Why? The "vast amount of resources it takes to make that?" What resources are being "vastly expended" to make it? Further, what resources are being "vastly expended" for GWs product, particularly as they dont use Chinese labor for their modeling....

You haven't articulated a single point yet, nor are you able to present a clear, directioned stream of thought, so it's hard to even present to you a cogent argument. So far, here are some of your claims:

No one should sell a $20k bottle of water. You haven't really said why, just that there are "vast resources" used in the making of it

Politicians steal rainwater from the impoverished While I realize you're trying to use metaphor to prove a point, this is simply non-sensical.

People are starving because we outsourced their jobs to China I can only assume you're talking about American jobs here, and if so it's so off base. While we have the hungry and the poor in the United States, you can hardly classify them as starving. Look up some of the slums in third world countries, or the truly impoverished in India (talk about a class disparity) before you start claiming we have that many 'starving' people in the US.

The "corporate model" is more offensive than a rape of a person As if there is only one 'corporate model' that exists.

You posted some youtube videos. Way to be an individual thinker there, friend.

[Wildeybeast]

Yes, to be sure. This game (like all games) is completely a luxury, and as such GW can charge as much as they want, even when it's completely outrageous. That is pretty much understood by everyone. What boggles my mind is the number of people who eagerly run forward every time to try and justify the prices, trying to say it's not unreasonable. Of COURSE it's unreasonable - based on the quality of their products and what else is available on the market, it is completely unreasonable. Still, people will pay it, so GW keeps doing what they do. If they can stay in business doing it, fine - good for them. But that won't stop people from complaining, nor should it.



I think Eldargal has dealt quite well with your ridiculous rape comments, but I'd like to take issue with this comment. Just exactly why is it unreasonable? By who's standards? Why are you arbiter of when something is not reasonable? GW is a business. The point of a business is to make money. Companies which don't make a profit and keep the spoils are called 'charities' or maybe 'bankrupt'. The whole point of the OP was that (if i understand correctly) businesses have to run a line between the profit made from higher prices and the loss from annoyed customers. So, by the capitalist model, prices only become unreasonable when the loss outweighs the gain. Now, if GW were selling an essential product and charging prices far in excess of what they cost to make, you might be able to make a moral case against this, but they aren't. They are selling plastic toys, a luxury purchase which people have no moral or legal entitlement too, and as such they can charge whatever they like and make as profit as possible and it will still be perfectly reasonable. You might feel they are too expenisve for you, fair enough, but that doesn't make them unreasonable.

[Verilance]

That's some of the dumbest shyte I've ever heard.

I have plenty of choice. On Friday/Saturday I'll CHOOSE to purchase the space wolf stuff and not any of the nid stuff.

This morning, I CHOSE to eat a scone from Panera instead of eat something I had already purchased at home. But when I grocery shop, I also have the choice of what to buy when I get there. I spent $35 bucks yesterday on fancy meats and cheeses to watch the Oscars. It was a choice. I didn't need them. They were luxury items.
.

Not trying to continue the arguement or anything however there is a debate on whether you do have choice or not. After the fact you may thing I could have had x when I got y but it may turn out that everything you do is somehow hard wired into your brain and you will always get y given the same circumstances

dunno whether I believe it or not but I have heard debates by scientists about this very issue.

anyway I stand otherwise firmly in agreement with you, one does not need to buy GW's plastic toys and in terms of other things I would like to collect (and do) I find them quite cheap.

[Necron2.0]

Some folks here need some brownies to go with their Kool-aid, OhYeah!! :D

Aaannnddd, yet another example:

http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x222/jo56_photos/5a861ca2.jpg

Seriously, this could go on ad infinitum, if you want.

[gendoikari87]

Some folks here need some brownies to go with their Kool-aid, OhYeah!!yup, Why oh why didn't I take the BLUE pill.....

[Aldramelech]

MMmmmmmmm a thread with GW and prices in the title, it wasn't going to end well was it?

[Thornblood]

This thread was one of my biggest mistakes.

*Biggest mistakes on this forum. My life has bigger ones for the record.

[gendoikari87]

MMmmmmmmm a thread with GW and prices in the title, it wasn't going to end well was it?

That wasn't obvious from post 1? Still it's amazing how many people will defend price gouging.

[Bean]

That's some of the dumbest shyte I've ever heard.

...

Jesus, man. Some of what you're spouting is so ignorant it's concerning.

Agreed.

[Uncle Nutsy]

so what.. you guys think a baneblade should cost something like twenty five bucks? a pack of warriors, eight bucks? pack of gaunts, two fifty?

let's get something reeeeeal straight here. GW models are CHEAP. I mean really cheap.

Let's compare one of the hobbies I enjoy to this hobby.

Say, I want a battery for my RC car right? I can go the cheapo route with a NiMH pack and pay about.. thirty bucks. Or, I could go with what I like, a name brand lipo battery and pay about.. a hundred twenty for it. You read right. 120 bucks - for a single battery. Another thing is for a speed controller I can get the low quality one and pay about fourty for it. Or I could get a name brand one and pay about 140 or so. If I want to go high end, brushless.. I'm looking at about 250. For a piece of electronics that's no bigger than an inch square. And I haven't even included the price of a motor, tyres, bodies, tools, accessories and other bits you would need.

A chassis where I mount all this stuff can range anywhere between 110 (used) to about 600 bucks brand new. Chargers range anywhere between 99 bucks to about 350.

So if I want a decent setup to hit the track with, I'm looking at about.. one thousand dollars,maybe a little more. If anyone spent around a grand on their 40k army.. it would be MASSIVE. maybe 3500-4000 points worth.

And RC helis? heh yeah you guys would have a heart attack if I were to tell you the total cost for a helicopter that's on the larger side plus all supporting equipment.

So, in summation, step back from the cost of 40k models and look at the prices for stuff in other hobbies. Maybe that will put things in perspective.

tl;dr version: this thread is LOL.

[gendoikari87]

have we actually discussed the actual business aspect of this? I mean I can't get anyone into the hobby because the look at the price and say "screw it" And they move on to other hobbies/wargames. Hell I know 40k Veterans who are quitting because of the price increases. so in the two places i've lived in the past six months I know about 30 players, or ex players, 0 have picked up the hobby, and 5 of those have quit. It's not a large sample size but I can imagine it's like this in a lot of places. It's hard to get people into the hobby of toy soldiers when you tell them it's going to be a minimum $300 if you want something that isn't AOBR deathwing. So if this is true, GW is strangling new player growth, in a time when they should be growing it. But short term profits are so much more alluring than the long haul strategy.

P.S. The remote control car analogy is bull, it's literally like comparing apples to oranges.

[Bean]

have we actually discussed the actual business aspect of this? I mean I can't get anyone into the hobby because the look at the price and say "screw it" And they move on to other hobbies/wargames. Hell I know 40k Veterans who are quitting because of the price increases. so in the two places i've lived in the past six months I know about 30 players, or ex players, 0 have picked up the hobby, and 5 of those have quit. It's not a large sample size but I can imagine it's like this in a lot of places. It's hard to get people into the hobby of toy soldiers when you tell them it's going to be a minimum $300 if you want something that isn't AOBR deathwing. So if this is true, GW is strangling new player growth, in a time when they should be growing it. But short term profits are so much more alluring than the long haul strategy.

P.S. The remote control car analogy is bull, it's literally like comparing apples to oranges.

Look, Gendo, from a pure business standpoint, your position obviously doesn't hold water. Games Workshop is doing quite well, financially. Thus, their prices are clearly not too high.

It may be the case that their pricing will prove to have been a mistake later down the road, if it is really the case that prices are barring entry, but since you have no data on that point at all, we're basically back to the part where your position fails to hold water.

Also, remote control cars are a pretty reasonable analogy--both are purely discretionary expenditures in the hobby category. Sure, there might be a more direct comparison to be made to other war-gaming companies (it doesn't seem entirely unreasonable to think that we're more likely to see people choosing between Warmachine and Warhammer than between Warhammer and RC cars) but it's not really an apples-to-oranges scenario.

Or, take more literally, it is. The phrase "apples to oranges" always strikes me as odd, since apples and oranges are, in fact, quite similar--especially within the context of economics. When shopping for groceries, I'm actually routinely going to compare apples to oranges when deciding what produce to buy, and that is fairly similar to the type of decision one makes when trying to decide what hobby to get into.


edit:
On a slightly different note, here's a good run-down of price gouging from Wikipedia:


Price gouging is a pejorative term referring to a situation in which a seller prices goods or commodities much higher than is considered reasonable or fair. This rapid increase in prices occurs after a demand or supply shock: examples include price increases after hurricanes or other natural disasters. In precise, legal usage, it is the name of a crime that applies in some of the United States during civil emergencies. In less precise usage, it can refer either to prices obtained by practices inconsistent with a competitive free market, or to windfall profits. In the Soviet Union, it was simply included under the single definition of speculation.

The term is similar to profiteering but can be distinguished by being short-term and localized, and by a restriction to essentials such as food, clothing, shelter, medicine and equipment needed to preserve life, limb and property. In jurisdictions where there is no such crime, the term may still be used to pressure firms to refrain from such behavior.

The term is not in widespread use in mainstream economic theory, but is sometimes used to refer to practices of a coercive monopoly which raises prices above the market rate that would otherwise prevail in a competitive environment.[1] Alternatively, it may refer to suppliers' benefiting to excess from a short-term change in the demand curve.

As you can see, GW's pricing scheme is not even remotely similar to price gouging.

It is not, for example, short-term and localized, based on a restriction to essentials. It is not based around a coercive monopoly.

It does not involve prices above the rate that would otherwise prevail in a competitive environment, because GW is operating in a competitive environment.

It does not involve excess from a short-term change in the demand curve.

GW's pricing is not price gouging. It's not even close, and your use of the term only serves to hammer home the conclusion that you really have no idea what you're talking about.

[wittdooley]

I'd argue that GW is expanding their potential player base with things like books and video games. Space Marine has been pretty successful. I have no idea whether or not it has brought in new players, but there are certainly people that weren't aware of the universe that are now. Same goes for the HH books that find themselves on the New York Times Bestsellers list. Because they're on that list, more people are going to be aware of them.



P.S. The remote control car analogy is bull, it's literally like comparing apples to oranges.

Why? It's all about competing funds people have for a hobby. You even state you have people leaving 40k "for other hobbies."

40K is certainly higher than most, but when compared to other wargames, you get more models. So there's some cost-benefit someone would have to look into there. But if you're looking at an expanding player base, newcomers are either coming by word of mouth or from one of the above two avenues.

If they're coming from the books or the video games, they're coming for 40k. Not Infinity. Not Warmachine. Not Malifaux. So if they decide 40k is too high a price for them, they're unlikely to migrate to one of these other lines.

I mean, I'll even make the argument for the other systems: If you want to start wargaming, there are cheaper entry systems. A full playable army and rulebook for pretty much any other system is going to run you $100 bucks. 40k, for a rulebook and a single full army is going to run you around $300-400. 40k and Warmachine have 2-player starters which are fully playable from box for $100.

However, if your new player base is coming for 40k from the video games or the books, they don't have much onus to want to look into the other systems unless they're looking for "wargame" and not Warhammer.

Coincidentally, the buy in for 40k is about the same as the buy in for any video game system.

40k Veterans quitting because of the 'price increases' don't make sense. They already have armies they can play. Increasing prices have no bearing on what they already have, and are able to play with.

You talk about business, and I'm not sure you really have any business acumen or know-how enabling your commentary. GW is growing their brand more than any other wargame system. This is evident in their video games, their books, and now, their movies. To say that they're concerned only about their short term, and not their long term, is simply ignorant. As a public company, they have to be concerned about their long term.


GW's pricing is not price gouging. It's not even close, and your use of the term only serves to hammer home the conclusion that you really have no idea what you're talking about.


Hear Hear! And Seconded

[Lord Azaghul]

This thread is getting idiotic. Seriously, stop the insults, the rape commentary, and the holier then thou attitudes.

Fan boys will be fan boys.

Haters will be Haters, including some of the fan boys.

Both will justify their 'wills and desires' until the end of time, and neither will sway the other.

***

In my humble and respectful option:

GW is damned expensive - saying it is 'relatively inexpensive' is just silly. Its still a good amount of cash to ask for bits of un-assembled plastic, metal and resin bits. If I'm not buying it - I'm saving money.

It can only be compared to other miniature hobbies - and yeah, PP ain't cheap either.

Comparing business models only works with other gaming hobbies companies, and yes GW did a few very stupid things last year, but do I have an firm grasp of all the behind the scenes? - nope - so I'll leave it there.

Gamers ARE addicts - but, sure it still a 'choice'. I chose to buy more Dystopain War stuff for my b-day rather then GW stuff, wanna guess which game I prefer right now? ;)

IMO - - I no longer feel the product is worth the cost. They lost me 2 price increase ago, but I was flagging long before that = Aka - 8th edition fantasy, and the recent releasing of VC before Dwarves put the proverbial nail in the coffin for me for 8th ed. But the hardly matters - 8th ed failed in my area.

Sure I still like the look of 40k, but I have little desire to play it. Doesn't mean I hate GW (aside from their whfb) It just means that they currently aren't earning MY business.


One or two of you fan boys REALLY need to take it down a notch or two. GW doesn't need to running to their rescue, or you need to stop taking other peoples options of GW personally.

If you want to keep buying GW stuff - great - but don't get all high and mighty about it.

Lets try and treat each other civilly here.

[Wildeybeast]

'd argue that GW is expanding their potential player base with things like books and video games. Space Marine has been pretty successful. I have no idea whether or not it has brought in new players, but there are certainly people that weren't aware of the universe that are now. Same goes for the HH books that find themselves on the New York Times Bestsellers list. Because they're on that list, more people are going to be aware of them.

Not to mention in all good book retailers. Every bookstore I've been in the UK has BL books in a vey prominent position within th fantasy/sci-fi section. In fact I went in my locka store the other day and noticed the BL stuff now has it's own display bookshelf. This gives them public awareness amongst the sci-fi/fantasy audience, in the same way Space Marine gave them access to the shooter market.

And ultimately, GW's new gamer market has been kids for quite some time now, and the cost is never really going to put parents off when it comes to their kid's happiness. £36 for a Mortis Throne or £50 for a PS3 game? Guess what mums going to buy (particularly as the staff in GW go out of their way to be helpful, unlike the monosyllabic drones in your average high street game store). Adult gamers may not take it up because of the price, but kids will as parents have no concept of the value of the models and the kids don't care.

[Wildeybeast]

One or two of you fan boys REALLY need to take it down a notch or two. GW doesn't need to running to their rescue, or you need to stop taking other peoples options of GW personally.

If you want to keep buying GW stuff - great - but don't get all high and mighty about it.

And the haters need to stop making idiotic and offensive comments comparing GW to rapists

Lets try and treat each other civilly here.

There, fixed that for you. ;)

[hacksaw]

As an ex GW staff member (retail before you ask and release questions) I ******* hate the way they're going with the whole kids before experienced gamers thing, but I understand the logic of it. But this is for another day. ;)
The prices don't really bother me much as I'm lucky enough to have a job (ships officer)that gives me a fair amount of both disposable income and time. The increased prices just mean my gaming budget doesn't go as far. Exactly the same as my beer budget!

Example
A box of tactical marines used to cost £15 now costs £23

A pint of Beer used to cost £1.80 now costs £3.50

In short prices go up deal with it! :rolleyes:

[Thornblood]

Dear Mr Hacksaw.

Firstly, whilst this is a response, please read it in light humour as if I am speaking in friendly tones, not angry ones. Also, any hating on GW from me is on the company, not you as a staff member. Kudos to you for getting a job you love, that enables your hobby and kudos that you are able to bear such tyrants (maybe tyrants is an exaggeration).

I agree wholeheartedly with your 'deal with it' attitude. When I begun this thread I did seek to explain why the prices have gone up. I may not be happy with it, but I understand why, and thus I would have to deal with it. I would however like to take issue with the pricing at your local pub.

I believe that you may have changed pub, changed beer of choice or your local pub may have changed owners to explain this price hike. Another reason the price of beer has gone up is that the government has taxed an extra few pennys for it.

In summery Tactical Marines have gone up in price alot more than you quoted, starting at £10 and now at £23.
Wikipedia has a choice line; For example, a metal "Goblin Fanatic" miniature has increased from 40p[12] to £2.67,[13] an increase of 567.5%. which is probably contrived to be the biggest increase the writer could find.

However, the average price of a pint of beer in the uk was £2.04 in 2000, whilst it was £3.04 for 2011. thats a 50% price increase in a similar time frame. The average pint of beer has increased in alcohol content from 3.5% to 4.4% which is more about the fact that real ales are less popular and lager has become a drink for any age, not just the young man trying to get wasted. The BBC has this to say on the subject http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-11484987

To explain the price hikes a little more; the Lord of The Rings Franchise injected GW with a massive amount of cash. Sadly in 1994 the company was floated on the london stock exchange which means that instead of making lots of money for a few years being a good thing, once the LOTR craze was over, GW share price dropped drastically in 2007 and the company ruthlessly fired anyone they could and closed every non profitable store (I think its fair enough to close non profit stores). Also GW released Apocalypse as a thinly veiled last-ditch attempt to get everyone to buy more stuff. Within two years GW was back in black and the share price was very good. During this time GW secured several contracts for computer games which helped bring revenue in with Dawn of War 2, Space Marine and the now cancelled MMO. In an effort to renew the Tolkien IP and prove their control GW began to bully fan sites, sending them cease and desist orders; understandable for the trolls but many of these sites had supported GW for many many years. After this GW began the third party lawsuits, and the Thunderwolf Cavalry and Tervigon suffered because of this; GW messed things up for themselves as American IP law is different to the UK.

Anyway, rant over. GW still make damn nice models and have the best gaming world/fluff around. I do however predict massive price hikes in 2014 - 2015 when the hobbits' sheen wears off and the new york times best selling series- The Horus Heresy comes to a close. They may be dragging it out and admittedly turning what seems like filler into really good stories, but it will come to an end at some point. Then the age of apostasy will be made, and it will go down like a lead balloon (because everyone knows Judas betrayed Jesus but who really knows about Martin Luther outside of protastant christian circles- and I dont mean the I have a dream guy. I mean the guy he's named after).

[Uncle Nutsy]

P.S. The remote control car analogy is bull, it's literally like comparing apples to oranges.

really? it's a comparison of one hobby to another hobby. this one costs x much to participate in, that one costs x to participate in.

and apples to oranges? well... they are both fruit and both have seeds. ;)

[CrimsonTurkey]

really? it's a comparison of one hobby to another hobby. this one costs x much to participate in, that one costs x to participate in.

and apples to oranges? well... they are both fruit and both have seeds. ;)

For your $100 in wargaming you get a few tiny bits of plastic. For your $250 in RC you get technology. Yes, you can say "wargaming is a much cheaper hobby than rc," but what's being discussed (used loosely) in this thread is the value of a product, not the relative costs of hobbies. You could also say that rallycross costs a lot more than wargaming or RC. It's pretty clear that $35,000 for a rally-bred and precision engineered Subaru STI that can also be used as a daily driver represents a better value than spending $41.25 for a biovore, despite being notably more expensive.

Now if someone were to bring up the fact that Mantic produces almost illegally similar models to GW at much lower prices...

[Dazz]

For your $100 in wargaming you get a few tiny bits of plastic. For your $250 in RC you get technology. Yes, you can say "wargaming is a much cheaper hobby than rc," but what's being discussed (used loosely) in this thread is the value of a product, not the relative costs of hobbies. You could also say that rallycross costs a lot more than wargaming or RC. It's pretty clear that $35,000 for a rally-bred and precision engineered Subaru STI that can also be used as a daily driver represents a better value than spending $41.25 for a biovore, despite being notably more expensive.

Now if someone were to bring up the fact that Mantic produces almost illegally similar models to GW at much lower prices...

We could tell them that Mantic models are of much poorer quality. Are sculpted to have minimal detail and have no bits and are virtually mono-pose. We could also tell them that they have virtually no rules, no stores, no overhead, minimal staff and only a handful of lines (some of which use the same sprues..making for even less lines)

The truth is GW is a luxury. No game I have played has models as nice for less.

[Uncle Nutsy]

and the value of a product is determined roughly by how much it costs to manufacture, but mostly by what a person thinks the buying public will part with. Basically what the market can bear.

we all have a choice. we can buy it, or we don't. complaining about it and getting a lot of 'I agree' responses won't change a thing. So if you like the hobby and want to continue.. suck it up and deal with it

[eldargal]

One thing people forget is that any hobby is as expensive as you make it. There is a young chap in my games club who hs a gaming budget of twenty pounds a month. He buys something one month or saves up for two or three to get what he wants. It is slow but he has put together 1000pts of Orks in around a year I believe. People say 'omg you need five hundred pounds to buy an army' but neglect to point out you don't need to buy it all at once and you can get it for less than that if you are smart. A lot less, in some cases.

And tabletop gaming is a cheap hobby compared to a lot of others, and it is fair to compare them. Take historical reenactment, one of my other passions. I just finished making an 18th century (third quarter) court dress for myself. I did all the sewing and whatnot so there was no labour, but the fabrics cost nearly two thousand pounds. One dress. The last plate harnes I had made for me for my fifteenth century reenactment cost thirty thousand pounds. Of course you can make a simple dresses out of wool, cotton and linen for a hundred pounds or less and you don't need a full gothic harness to do military reenactment. See above, as expensive as you make it.

Also in all honesty GW aren't the most expensive kits on the market, at least a UK prices. And European in some cases. A lot of the smaller companies charge more for a character than GW, a lot ask less. Few offer plastic regiments so it is hard to compare, those are generally cheaper it has to be said but the quality usually isn't comparable. The exception being AoWs Dwarfs. There are very few big plastic vehicles out there (apart from historicals, see below) so they are hard to compare. There are a lot of cheaper things for historicals, but that is because anyone can start producing models for historical miniatures as the designs are all public domain.

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

One thing people forget is that any hobby is as expensive as you make it. There is a young chap in my games club who hs a gaming budget of twenty pounds a month. He buys something one month or saves up for two or three to get what he wants. It is slow but he has put together 1000pts of Orks in around a year I believe. People say 'omg you need five hundred pounds to buy an army' but neglect to point out you don't need to buy it all at once and you can get it for less than that if you are smart. A lot less, in some cases..

Indeed, That's basicly what I do and I have VERY little disposable income, I can afford one £20 boxset about every 2 months - so that's what I personally do : you won't be able to get an army as quickly and it will take a lot longer, allthough the upside to this is that it you'll have the time to get what you do get painted - so for me I actually prefer this method and is what I am doing to make my 3rd necron army. For example I planned it out that from feb/march/april/may I buy a box of immortals to fill out my troops, in june I get a Annihilation Barge which gives me my heavy-support and HQ (because the Overlord can be used on its own!) - and that effectively gives me a small force to play with. The remaining months of the year I can buy other things such as lychguard/praetorian boxes and (hopefully by then) the flyers and wraiths. Buying from sites like Gifts for Geeks or Total Wargamer also gives me discounts so I am effectively spending about £17 a month, which is doable for me.

[Cherub]

And tabletop gaming is a cheap hobby compared to a lot of others, and it is fair to compare them. Take historical reenactment, one of my other passions. I just finished making an 18th century (third quarter) court dress for myself. I did all the sewing and whatnot so there was no labour, but the fabrics cost nearly two thousand pounds. One dress. The last plate harnes I had made for me for my fifteenth century reenactment cost thirty thousand pounds. Of course you can make a simple dresses out of wool, cotton and linen for a hundred pounds or less and you don't need a full gothic harness to do military reenactment. See above, as expensive as you make it.


And I thought that I had expensive habits lol

[Wolfshade]

There is a young chap in my games club who h[a]s a gaming budget of twenty pounds a month. He buys something one month or saves up for two or three to get what he wants.
This is it. You buy what you can afford. Most people do this in their everyday living. I do the same I budget for it, but if I have unexpected expenses then is my GW fund that takes the hit after all it is just a luxury and no one is forcing you to by things. Most of us are expecting there to be a big release in the not too distant future so instead of my usual monthly purchases I have been saving up ready for it.

[gendoikari87]

Look, Gendo, from a pure business standpoint, your position obviously doesn't hold water. Games Workshop is doing quite well, financially. Thus, their prices are clearly not too high.

are you dense? did you not read the part about short term profits? Of course if you increase prices with a player base your going to make more money, while at the same time pricing some of those out and preventing new players from coming it. It's an unsustainable model. Just look at their price increase versus their increased profits, their using higher and higher prices to mask a flat sales volume. Flat, mind you, because of the price increases.

[Wolfshade]

I’m not sure that it is really unsustainable, after all. I was comparing the price of the first predator I brought way back in the nineties that was £25. It’s now £31. A £6 price rise over just under 20 years isn’t massive especially if you consider inflation rate. If I could afford it then with my pocket money as an adult it is even more affordable.
That isn't even taking into account the increase in the quality of the new kits vs old.

[Psychosplodge]

But you're forgetting the nineties predator was a £10 plastic rhino with a load of metal add-ons. Isn't this one all plastic? Not a simple a comparison as you're making it.

[Wolfshade]

Yes all the non-Rhino bits were metal (lead) and the voilitile price of the metals from lead to white metal and all that but the crux of it is this are gamers still prepared to pay these prices. Yes.
Luxury price explosion is everywhere I remember my first computer game being fairly cheap, now some console games are going for £60 which many people said was exessive but people pay it and continue to do so

[Psychosplodge]

Console games were upto £60 on the old cartridge consoles, the reason people moan now more is you can buy a spindle of dvd/rw or even blue rays for relatively little, forgetting development costs. But then how much does it cost to reskin MW_X? every year, or redo the spreadsheet table behind fifa 20xx?

[wittdooley]

This is it. You buy what you can afford. Most people do this in their everyday living. I do the same I budget for it, but if I have unexpected expenses then is my GW fund that takes the hit after all it is just a luxury and no one is forcing you to by things. Most of us are expecting there to be a big release in the not too distant future so instead of my usual monthly purchases I have been saving up ready for it.

I think this is a much more reasonble thing to be irritated about; because of the new release structure, it makes it very hard to budget your purchases.

But again, no one is forcing you to buy anything

@EG--- YOu really need a blog. You talk about a lot of cool shyte that I'd love to see in pictures.

[gendoikari87]

Console games were upto £60 on the old cartridge consoles, the reason people moan now more is you can buy a spindle of dvd/rw or even blue rays for relatively little, forgetting development costs. But then how much does it cost to reskin MW_X? every year, or redo the spreadsheet table behind fifa 20xx?

none of that is relevant to cost. It's relevant to if they get made (I.E. if the final price times units sold will be more than the initial investment). Cost in strictly determined by supply and demand, a system which has outlived its usefulness. As is evident in the need for subsidies and minimum wage laws. You can sell a bottle of water to a man in the desert for everything he's ever had and more, doesn't make it right.

[Bean]

are you dense? did you not read the part about short term profits? Of course if you increase prices with a player base your going to make more money, while at the same time pricing some of those out and preventing new players from coming it. It's an unsustainable model. Just look at their price increase versus their increased profits, their using higher and higher prices to mask a flat sales volume. Flat, mind you, because of the price increases.

Are you literate? I addressed that point in my post. My point was that the data that we all have available to us now not only fails to support your point but, in fact, suggests that you're wrong, while the argument that you present here--that their current policy is stifling growth, requires data that you simply haven't provided.

That was what I said. It addresses the point that you claim I missed, which means that you either failed to read my post or weren't literate enough to understand what I wrote. Either way, you're only making yourself look bad with this sort of thing. You're not making a compelling point, and the insults you're directing at others are falling laughably flat.

[Xcerus]

Just wanted to put this one to rest.

I have hated GW price increments, and the rise of toy soldiers and hobby extras has risen faster than inflation.

However.

A family relation of mine did quite well on London Transport (an essential service prone to price hikes) and had at one point to come up with a very very complex algorithm to do with price increases. Essentially he had to work out how much revenue was lost when prices were put in versus how much profit was made and where was 'too much'.

Similarly GW are arguably the leading manufacturer of this war games hobby. In the last decade or so we have seen severe recession in the west and GW has thrown some if its customer service and more family/friendly manners in favour for a more professional and more ruthless business model, which is not surprising seeing that they are a business.

Also, GW stores (in the UK at least) have been asked to destroy overstock of certain products (most notably vast amounts of black library books) rather than reduce to clear. This is a common business model amongst premium products- no reductions, the prices are correct and we would rather destroy stock than reduce it, because we can afford to and selling a few items at a high price which are cheap to produce is easier on the company overheads (shipping, staffing, manufacturing etc) than selling lots of products at a cheap price which are cheap to produce.

I.e. the budget supermarket struggles to make profit everyday, whereas the car showroom makes alot fewer sales and a much bigger profit per person.

GW is like the Harrods of mini wargaming. It costs alot, and that's part of the appeal. (In fact in Harrods GW products cost more than the rrp).

Whilst I am angry at GW for pricing issues, I think they can justify them in business terms. They are, after all the market leaders. (Im not saying therers not other amazing mini wargaming companies that might be turning more of a % profit, but GW are the giants here).

I have hated GW price increments, and the rise of toy soldiers and hobby extras has risen faster than inflation.

Find a new hobby or use another companies models.

A family relation of mine did quite well on London Transport (an essential service prone to price hikes) and had at one point to come up with a very very complex algorithm to do with price increases. Essentially he had to work out how much revenue was lost when prices were put in versus how much profit was made and where was 'too much'.

Thats nice... did you want a medal?

Similarly GW are arguably the leading manufacturer of this war games hobby. In the last decade or so we have seen severe recession in the west and GW has thrown some if its customer service and more family/friendly manners in favour for a more professional and more ruthless business model, which is not surprising seeing that they are a business.

If you have a problem with customer service then make a complaint... I have found that the level of service from GW has infact INCREASED and there are fewer dodgy staff members trying to pawn off Flames of War or Warmahordes to me.

Also, GW stores (in the UK at least) have been asked to destroy overstock of certain products (most notably vast amounts of black library books) rather than reduce to clear. This is a common business model amongst premium products- no reductions, the prices are correct and we would rather destroy stock than reduce it, because we can afford to and selling a few items at a high price which are cheap to produce is easier on the company overheads (shipping, staffing, manufacturing etc) than selling lots of products at a cheap price which are cheap to produce.

Every one does this - Libraries constantly destroy books rather than try to sell them for the same reason most companies do - its cheaper than having to keep old stock around when you have a cosntant flow of new stock. As for the models: Take a look at the back of a box - you see the green arrows chasing each other - thats the recycled goods logo. I will give you a clue - its not for the box.

I.e. the budget supermarket struggles to make profit everyday, whereas the car showroom makes alot fewer sales and a much bigger profit per person.

GW is like the Harrods of mini wargaming. It costs alot, and that's part of the appeal. (In fact in Harrods GW products cost more than the rrp).

You know where you can get the product cheaper... so go there instead of to a GW - name a company that has a constant profit who consitatnly lists their product at an RRP that is LOWER than the value retail stores then sell it at...

Whilst I am angry at GW for pricing issues, I think they can justify them in business terms. They are, after all the market leaders. (Im not saying therers not other amazing mini wargaming companies that might be turning more of a % profit, but GW are the giants here)
Ah - now I understand - you just wanted a pointless rant because you were angry that you would only be able to buy 22 boxes of new product this month instead of 24...

/thread

[wittdooley]

Cost in strictly determined by supply and demand, a system which has outlived its usefulness.

I'd love to see this argument floated at any economics convention. It's so ignorant I don't even know how to address it. But I'll make an attempt using present day examples:

Nintendo was forced to drop the price of the 3DS because the market wouldn't bear a price entry point of $250 for a portable handheld that would sustain their desired level of profit.

Incidentally, I'm guessing we'll see the same to be true for the Playstation Vita in before Q4 this year.

Contrarily, when Apple announces the iPad 3 in a few weeks, the percieved 'high' pricepoint will not be a prohibitive factor in selling them, despite the emergence of other tablets, particularly the Amazon Kindle Fire. If Apple wasn't making their target profit, they'd have dropped the price of any iDevice long ago. As they haven't, or they only drop the prices when releasing a new model, it would follow that the higher price point they've set for the iPad isn't affecting their bottom line in a negative fashion.

If GW wasn't making their targets in terms of profit, it would directly correlate to supply & demand.

Gendo... I can't tell if you're being purposefully obtuse so as to troll, of you genuinely don't have a clue what you're talking about. Either way, insulting people and making outlandish statements isn't any way to sway anyone to your side of a discussion.

[Psychosplodge]

none of that is relevant to cost.

Of course it's relevant to the point I was making. When people know the price of a blank item (try and find the price of a blank cartridge in the nineties without the internet....), and know the price of a finished item they're going to know the difference and make a judgement call on the perceived value to them.

Now back to GW 2011 people knew roughly the £/ton of white metal, they can compare the £/ton of various resins reasonably easily, and at the same time prices went up, again people are going to make a judgement call on the perceived value to them and act accordingly(and considering after football and queuing, moaning about prices going up is the third most common English pastime....what did you expect?)

[Wildeybeast]

Of course it's relevant to the point I was making. When people know the price of a blank item (try and find the price of a blank cartridge in the nineties without the internet....), and know the price of a finished item they're going to know the difference and make a judgement call on the perceived value to them.

Now back to GW 2011 people knew roughly the £/ton of white metal, they can compare the £/ton of various resins reasonably easily, and at the same time prices went up, again people are going to make a judgement call on the perceived value to them and act accordingly(and considering after football and queuing, moaning about prices going up is the third most common English pastime....what did you expect?)

Incorrect. Discussing the weather is our third favourite pastime. :D

[Psychosplodge]

Incorrect. Discussing the weather is our third favourite pastime. :D
It was a close thing, I was undecided....

[thecactusman17]

There is no weather in England. It's just grey all the time.

That's from your mouths over there, not ours here in the states. We have actual weather patterns!

[Psychosplodge]

LMAO, That's on the wrong side of the Pennines, The rest of the country can have ALL weather in an afternoon....

If we had none, what we be talking about?

[Uncle Nutsy]

One thing people forget is that any hobby is as expensive as you make it. There is a young chap in my games club who hs a gaming budget of twenty pounds a month. He buys something one month or saves up for two or three to get what he wants. It is slow but he has put together 1000pts of Orks in around a year I believe. People say 'omg you need five hundred pounds to buy an army' but neglect to point out you don't need to buy it all at once and you can get it for less than that if you are smart. A lot less, in some cases.

bravo. you expressed my point exactly. Good to see some people still have some sense and the perspective to see what things are.

[Wildeybeast]

LMAO, That's on the wrong side of the Pennines, The rest of the country can have ALL weather in an afternoon....

If we had none, what we be talking about?

Yeah, and occasionally we get nice weather, which is worth commenting on. More importantly, it is shared cultural experience that everyone in the UK has and provides a small talk topic that everyone knows about and has an opinion on, giving you enough conversation material to make it through those awkward occasions where you find yourself talking to someone you don't know and would ratehr not talk to, but feel compelled to out of politeness.

[Thornblood]

Thats nice... did you want a medal?



Yes. Yes I do.

[gendoikari87]

I'll just leave this here:

$37.25
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440176a&prodId=prod1060074&rootCatGameStyle=
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1252458_99120101025_SMTacticalsquadmain_445x319.j pg

$29.00
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440173a&prodId=prod2070014&rootCatGameStyle=
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2530054_99120105039_IGCadianShockTroops_445x319.j pg


$35.00
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440178a&prodId=prod1060295&rootCatGameStyle=
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m490242_99120114001_TauKrootCarnivoreSquadMain_445 x319.jpg
I believe this speaks for itself. Notice the kroot have 6 more models than the marines but are actually cheaper. and are more intricate.

[wittdooley]

I'm sorry. What exactly does that prove?

[Bean]

Actually, Gendo, I've assembled both Kroot and tactical Marines. The Marines actually both have more pieces and a wider variety of bits on their sprues.

Not that it really matters at all, as far as the point is concerned.

[gendoikari87]

Actually, Gendo, I've assembled both Kroot and tactical Marines. The Marines actually both have more pieces and a wider variety of bits on their sprues.

Not that it really matters at all, as far as the point is concerned.

I've done both as well and this statement is false . There is a lot more to a kroot kit than a SM kit. hell the kroot kit even has more than the old space wolves frame.

[Bean]

I've done both as well and this statement is false . There is a lot more to a kroot kit than a SM kit. hell the kroot kit even has more than the old space wolves frame.

I disagree.

Anyway, you still don't have anything that even approaches a point. =P

edit:

A Kroot Carnivore box comes with four identical sprues, each building four Kroot. Each Kroot consists of five pieces: head, torso, arm, arm, legs.

In addition, each sprue has four shoulder pads, two gun slings, and twelve other decorative bits.



That's not bad, but let's compare it to the Marine box:

Each marine is ten bits: head, torso, torso, backpack, shoulder, shoulder, arm, arm, legs, and a bolter

The Marine box comes with five sprues.

Four come in two sets of two. Each set builds five marines. Additionally, each set has three tall ammo packs, three short ammo packs, five sets of grenades, a variant head, a variant shoulder, five purity seals, a scroll case, a grenade-throwing arm, two combat knives and a scope.

The fifth sprue contains:

two chainsword arms, two plasma pistol arms, two bolt pistol arms, a melta gun, a plasma gun, a flamer, a variant torso piece, the three bits required to make a missile launcher and associated arms, two krak missile bits, two variant heads, a holstered pistol, a bolt pistol, a variant shoulder pad, a back banner, a scroll, two more purity seals, two tabards, and an auspex,

Let's count that up, shall we?

Kroot: one sprue mold
Marines: two sprue molds

Kroot: four sprues
Marines: five sprues

Kroot: 152 bits
Marines: 173 bits

Kroot: 38 bit types (categories of bits which are identical to each other and distinct from bits in other categories)
Marines: 59 bit types

Nope, Gendo. No matter how you cut it, you're wrong. The Marine box comes with more sprues, more bits, and a much wider variety of bits. It makes a wider variety of models, and (most importantly) required twice as many molds (which are the major investment in the plastic-model-producing-process).

And all that for only, what--an extra two dollars and twenty-five cents?

Gendo, you obviously have no idea what you're talking about. You make that more and more clear each time you post. You're not only wrong about this bit of minor trivia, you're wrong about the point you were trying to make with that minor bit of trivia, and you're wrong with regard to the argument at large. You've got nothing, and you're just digging yourself a bigger hole as you try to make your nothing look like something.

But, all that aside, I'm just amused to have caught you out on such a blatant factual error, especially since you stood up for it after I corrected it the first time. Next time, either do your research or don't lie (depending on which was the source of your error).


edit again:

Also, just to address one last potential objection, I know that your post stated that the Kroot are more "intricate." It's not clear what you meant by that, exactly, but since the sprues themselves are demonstrably not more intricate I'll address the potential contention that the models are more intricate: they are not. Again, the basic marine model has twice as many bits as the basic Kroot model. Kroot have a little over a dozen potential doodads, and it's difficult to compare this to the marine box because the marine box has weapon options in addition to doodads, but no matter how you cut it, the average marine involves more bits and a wider variety of bits than the average Kroot.

[Thornblood]

Bean, you are forgetting one important thing.

The Kroot come with a half rack of ribs. I like eating ribs more than I like eating purity seals.

So whilst the marines win many categories you have stated, the kroot win the food category.

[chromedog]

There is no weather in England. It's just grey all the time.

That's from your mouths over there, not ours here in the states. We have actual weather patterns!

The UK does have weather.

It's just that other countries tend to have a climate (y'know, variant weather patterns of a pseudo random nature).

[Deadlift]

Great post Bean, but what the fugs a Doodad :D

[eldargal]

Doodad is another word for whatsit or thingamie.

[gendoikari87]

I disagree.

Anyway, you still don't have anything that even approaches a point. =P

edit:

A Kroot Carnivore box comes with four identical sprues, each building four Kroot. Each Kroot consists of five pieces: head, torso, arm, arm, legs.

In addition, each sprue has four shoulder pads, two gun slings, and twelve other decorative bits.



That's not bad, but let's compare it to the Marine box:

Each marine is ten bits: head, torso, torso, backpack, shoulder, shoulder, arm, arm, legs, and a bolter

The Marine box comes with five sprues.

Four come in two sets of two. Each set builds five marines. Additionally, each set has three tall ammo packs, three short ammo packs, five sets of grenades, a variant head, a variant shoulder, five purity seals, a scroll case, a grenade-throwing arm, two combat knives and a scope.

The fifth sprue contains:

two chainsword arms, two plasma pistol arms, two bolt pistol arms, a melta gun, a plasma gun, a flamer, a variant torso piece, the three bits required to make a missile launcher and associated arms, two krak missile bits, two variant heads, a holstered pistol, a bolt pistol, a variant shoulder pad, a back banner, a scroll, two more purity seals, two tabards, and an auspex,

Let's count that up, shall we?

Kroot: one sprue mold
Marines: two sprue molds

Kroot: four sprues
Marines: five sprues

Kroot: 152 bits
Marines: 173 bits

Kroot: 38 bit types (categories of bits which are identical to each other and distinct from bits in other categories)
Marines: 59 bit types

Nope, Gendo. No matter how you cut it, you're wrong. The Marine box comes with more sprues, more bits, and a much wider variety of bits. It makes a wider variety of models, and (most importantly) required twice as many molds (which are the major investment in the plastic-model-producing-process).

And all that for only, what--an extra two dollars and twenty-five cents?

Gendo, you obviously have no idea what you're talking about. You make that more and more clear each time you post. You're not only wrong about this bit of minor trivia, you're wrong about the point you were trying to make with that minor bit of trivia, and you're wrong with regard to the argument at large. You've got nothing, and you're just digging yourself a bigger hole as you try to make your nothing look like something.

But, all that aside, I'm just amused to have caught you out on such a blatant factual error, especially since you stood up for it after I corrected it the first time. Next time, either do your research or don't lie (depending on which was the source of your error).


edit again:

Also, just to address one last potential objection, I know that your post stated that the Kroot are more "intricate." It's not clear what you meant by that, exactly, but since the sprues themselves are demonstrably not more intricate I'll address the potential contention that the models are more intricate: they are not. Again, the basic marine model has twice as many bits as the basic Kroot model. Kroot have a little over a dozen potential doodads, and it's difficult to compare this to the marine box because the marine box has weapon options in addition to doodads, but no matter how you cut it, the average marine involves more bits and a wider variety of bits than the average Kroot.

Well your right about more bits, sorry I didn't do my research on ultras, i was going off the old space wolves frame. (still wrong tough, as kroot STILL have more models of the same size) but explain this then. That's two sprues with five marines and terminator bits. for less than the marine sprues. Still if you want a real comparaison compare to combat squads with the one kroot and you'll find i'm still right as that is the fairer comparison. ALSO I NOTICE YOU SKIPPED RIGHT OVER THE FREAKING CADIANS

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1620019a_99080101006_DAUpgradeSprue_445x319.jpg


Nope, Gendo. No matter how you cut it, you're wrong. The Marine box comes with more sprues, more bits, and a much wider variety of bits. It makes a wider variety of models, and (most importantly) required twice as many molds (which are the major investment in the plastic-model-producing-process).Dude by your own math this isn't true they require 1 more mold for every 4 the kroot have. (BTW that's for special weapons room which the kroot admittedly don't have)

BTW the point is price inconsistancy Which by the way the new SW frame has 218 bits, so should it not be something like $40

[wittdooley]

You realize that Dark Angels kit only has 5 models in it, right? I mean, regardless how man bitz are on it. Only 5 models. You need a Termi-torso to utilize the terminator legs.

As for price inconsistency:

Every 5 man marine kit that has been released since the space wolves has been $33 USD. Every terminator kit has been $50. Seems pretty consistent to me.

As for comparing the Marines and the Kroot -- the marine is a much beefier modle than the Kroot, and as Bean already pointed out (are you just ignoring this?) they contain twice as many pieces per model.

I mean, seriously. What point ARE you trying to make? You're failing miserably at whatever it is, but I'm having trouble figure out what "it" even is.


BTW the point is price inconsistancy Which by the way the new SW frame has 218 bits, so should it not be something like $40

And clearly, based on this statement, you really have no clue what you're talking about. The 10-Man Space Wolf pack kit at $37 is an absolute joke of a bargain based on what you get in that box. First, you're looking at less than $4 a model. Second, it may be the most highly detailed kit GW has right now. The detail on the bits is insane. Third, the amount of extra bits you get is enough that if you were starting, you could buy one wolf pack, one dev squad, one command squad, and one assault squad and you'd have enough bits from that Wolf Pack box to make every one of your new models Space Wolfy.

The more you post, the more I'm thinking you dont actually own any of the models or actually play the game.

[Bean]

Gendo:

I skipped the Cadians because I'm not very familiar with the Cadian sprues.

Beyond that, you write:



(still wrong tough, as kroot STILL have more models of the same size)

Having more models of the same size doesn't entail being more intricate. The Kroot box is less plastic (fewer sprues) and less of an investment on the part of GW (fewer sprue molds). Even by your deeply flawed reasoning, it should cost less than the Tactical Marine box, and it does.


That's two sprues with five marines and terminator bits. for less than the marine sprues. Still if you want a real comparaison compare to combat squads with the one kroot and you'll find i'm still right as that is the fairer comparison.

Yup, the Dark Angels veteran sprue is a great deal. So what? Again, it's less molds, which is a bigger consideration.

Actually, never mind. I think I've figured out your problem. You just don't understand the economics involved. Let me break it down for you in a fairly simplified manner.


When developing a plastic model kit, Games Workshop has to invest some money. First, GW has to pay some sculptors to create the sculpts. Then, they have to pay some engineers to figure out how to break those models into bits that are accessible to players and can be formed from an injection cast mold. Then, they have to create the mold. This process takes a substantial amount of money, and the more molds you have to make for the kit, the more money it takes. In fact, most of the money spent at this stage is in developing and creating the molds. Additionally, of course, Games Workshop has to create the extra material--the box art and the instruction manual. These are probably small expenditures, all things considered.


Then, of course, Games Workshop has to actually cast the models. This requires some plastic, obviously, and the time of a skilled laborer, and probably some other odds and ends that I don't know enough about the process to identify.

Additionally, all of this requires machinery and facilities, which are large investments; games workshop has to pay for utilities and upkeep, pay salaries and benefits, store up money for future investments, and turn a profit for the shareholders.

When deciding how much to charge for a kit, then, the amount of plastic and the number of bits in the kit are not entirely insignificant--that plastic does cost money, and the more complicated a sprue is, the more its mold likely cost to develop and construct--but they are far from the whole story. In fact, these two elements are fairly minor considerations in the overall pricing scheme. Here are a couple of other ones:

Some portion of the proceeds from each kit go into paying off the initial investment into the molds. Since this is a one-time investment, GW can afford to put less money per kit towards the initial investment if the kit can be expected to sell more frequently. This means that they can afford to price high-selling kits a little lower than they would price similar but lower-selling kits.

GW has to select a price that customers are willing to pay. When I buy a kit, I'm not buying it for the bulk of plastic or number of bits it contains. I buy it because it's something that I want to play or something that looks cool. The value assigned to kits by players is informed by considerations which are quite removed from the elements that dictate the cost of producing those kits. For example, the average Space Marine player might value the Tactical Marine box fairly highly, because you can't really play a Space Marine army without Tactical Marines, while Tau players, on average, value the Kroot box less, because Kroot are not such a fundamental element of the Tau army. Even if the Tactical Marine box and the Kroot box cost exactly the same amount to produce (and they certainly did not) pricing them identically would still not be appropriate.

Many people buy armies. An army is 1500 or 1850 or maybe 2000 or 2500 points, and players will often, especially at first, buy enough models to build an army. This means that a player building an army out of high-point-cost models will likely buy fewer models. Since the cost of plastic is only a very, very small part of the production cost of plastic kits, Games Workshop doesn't really care how many models you end up with--what matters more is that armies tend to cost similar amounts. Consider a box of Terminators: the difference between producing a Terminator and producing a Tactical Marine is basically insignificant, in terms of how much GW spends, yet you pay more for five Terminators than you do for ten Tactical Marines. Why? Because Terminators take up a larger portion of your army, so the demand for Terminators is likely to be lower. Lower demand means, again, that Games Workshop has to charge a little more for them to recoup the initial investment.

Of course, GW can't price them beyond what their demand will support, but, in the case of terminators, they clearly have not.

And, of course, this is only the start of a much longer list.




When you complain about price in the manner you've chosen to adopt, Gendo, you really only illustrate that you don't understand what goes into the pricing scheme. Quantity of bits, volume of plastic, even intricacy--these are not the sole considerations. Investment and expected demand play a big role as well, and there are countless other factors that could potentially weigh in on the decision.

Perhaps the most important point, though, is again that I don't care how much plastic or how many bits I'm getting in a kit. As long as I get enough plastic and enough bits to make a cool unit that I want to play, my valuation of the kit stems almost entirely from how cool the unit is and how much I want to play it--neither of which is dictated solely or even primarily by the number models in the kit of the number of doodads in the kit. Since the amount that players value a kit is the primary factor limiting the kit's cost (not determining, but limiting--as in placing a limit on how much GW can charge for it and still get me to buy it) it is clear that simply looking at the number of bits in kit (even if you were to do it competently) doesn't speak to the issue in any significant way.

To close, then, let me address your last two points:



Dude by your own math this isn't true they require 1 more mold for every 4 the kroot have. (BTW that's for special weapons room which the kroot admittedly don't have)

This is sort of trivial, but you're counting it wrong. The tactical box has one more sprue than the kroot box has, but the kroot box has four identical sprues--which means only one mold. The tactical box has two identical sets of sprues (one mold) and one additional sprue (another mold). It's not four molds to five. It's one mold to two. My math was right, and my conclusion followed accurately from it. Your grasp of the situation is severely flawed.




BTW the point is price inconsistancy Which by the way the new SW frame has 218 bits, so should it not be something like $40

No, because, again, price is not and should not be dictated by bit count. Bit count is not a controlling factor in the pricing scheme, and it would be a stupid pricing scheme if bit count were a controlling factor. This really sums up the entire conversation. Your grasp of the relevant economics is severely flawed, and it has led you to a belief about the way that pricing should be done which is essentially inane.

[wittdooley]

Well said, Bean, well said.

[BuFFo]

10 pages? I thought the OP put this one to rest, guys....

[Wildeybeast]

Well said, Bean, well said.

Indeed, some excellent points. Also, and I may be wrong in this, but doesn't each mold have limited life span in that after so much usage, they start to lose details and new one is needed? In that case, SM are going to get through more molds than Kroot and IG as they obviously sell more.

[Bean]

Indeed, some excellent points. Also, and I may be wrong in this, but doesn't each mold have limited life span in that after so much usage, they start to lose details and new one is needed? In that case, SM are going to get through more molds than Kroot and IG as they obviously sell more.

Thanks, and yes, I think you're right. I am certainly not an expert on the plastic-model-making process, but I would be very surprised if the molds did not wear out with use.

[Merkmon]

My two cents? It'd be nice if GW models were more cheap. :D

[Myu]

@Merkmon

Haha yeah I wish they were too.

I must confess I'm greatly impressed at all the justifications people give for GW stuff. I almost feel like corporations are charging $200 000 for water and people mauling those the speak out against it. I think I finally understand why GW gets away with it's prices. It's not to do with actual cost to manufacture or shipping or whatever. It's people are willing to spend the money. Enough to warrant further price increases. Please people don't give me that ridiculous trash that it's all ok because it's a luxury. IT'S NOT REASONABLE, IT'S NOT OK. It just is. Just because it works doesn't make it moral or something. Hence the rape comparison before. Rape is more extreme, but I'm dismayed at the childishness of the internet being unable to just run with an analogy. They're both bad things. One it more bad then the other but NEITHER OF THEM ARE GOOD.

I would like to be able to afford to buy lots of GW stuff, I've grown up with it, I'm passionate about it I like almost all aspects of the hobby. And I'm told to suck it up because I can't afford that which I care about. Why would I listen to people like that? It's not an essential definitely. It's a luxury definitely. The world will continue tomorrow if I stop definitely. But I am vocal about being able to continue something I care about. I don't want to lose a source of personal and social happiness if I can avoid it.

I won't get models elsewhere as I think other manufacturers are generally terrible in comparison. I don't really trust third part sites or ebay; to many horror stories. I don't want to go to another system as I could care less about what they do, and nothing has peaked my interest. For modeling and war gaming I only want GW stuff. Nothing else. I do not want green eggs and ham, I do not want them sam I am. You may like them but I do not.So I will continue to be vocal about being able to keep doing the one wargaming thing I do like.

[eldargal]

You can't 'run with' the rape analogy unless you are idiot, because it doesn't work.

Rape: An illegal, immoral act of violence prompted by a desire for power over others, usually women.

Charging what you think people will pay: Common sense business practise for any company, not just corporations who are COMPELLED BY LAW, and morally obliged*, to make as much profit as they can.

So you are comparing an illegal act with one compelled by law. So the analogy is not just immature, it does't work. Just because you can't afford toy soldiers doesn't mean it starts working miraculously either.

Companies charging what they think the consumer will pay is justified, and it is right. It keeps companies in business, it keeps employees employed and it fills government coffers with taxes.


*Yes, really. Companies have a moral obligation to their customers, shareholders and employees to be successful.

I'm not trying to single you out to be rude Myu, I just get annoyed by the silly overuse of rape, your opinions re GW prices I may disagree with but obviously you have every right to them.

[Wolfshade]

You can't 'run with' the rape analogy unless you are idiot, because it doesn't work
This.
As has been re-iterated countless times, Warhammer in all of its forms (yes even LoTR) is a game a luxury that we don't have to buy and if it is too expensive for you then don't buy it. Yes, we would all love to have cheaper models, but that's not going to happen. We all know (or at least shoud be aware) that the cost to produce the models has very little bearing on the price of the models, and statements saying that the price is shrinking consumer demand is not borne out by any of the financial statements with GW being more profitable now than in its history. GW prides itself as a premium hobby, that's why over stocks aren't sold at discounts. If GW couldn't sell any baneblades at £60+ then the price would change, but it can and we will pay it.

[Myu]

@Eldargal

"So you are comparing an illegal act with one compelled by law. "

You are completely missing the point. I am and the original poster comparing two highly undesirable things. Put your law books and lawyer-ism away, it's not like my opinion on pricee will change GW one bit anyway.

@Wolfshade

Justify it however you like. I don't like what they're doing so I'll take about it. I'm not going to start liking their prices, no matter how many people agree with me they're a luxury item.

[eldargal]

I'm not missing the point, I'm pointing out why the analogy is ridiculous and simply doesn't work. Rape isn't only highly undesirable, it is a soul destroying act of violence that is illegal. Prestige goods pricing is legal, logical and quite ethical. You can stick your head in the sand all you want but the fact remains the analogy is immature, hyperbolic and absurd, it has nothing to do with your opinion on GWs prices.

[Bean]

No-one is telling you that you have to like GW's prices. Heck--I wish they were a little cheaper, myself. Who doesn't?

What we're calling you out on is the assertion that GW's prices are somehow "bad" or immoral. They aren't. That you don't like them doesn't make them so, and no compelling (or even cogent) argument for their immorality has been presented. You can complain all you want, and you can like and dislike whatever you want, but when you go beyond merely complaining and disliking something to making broader statements about its morality or immorality--and the statements you make in this latter area are inane--you should expect to be challenged on them.

[mickyt1984]

GDubz have been a market leader for around 30 years as a business they run on the sole reason to make profit. As a hobby it was introduced to provide gamers with what they want and expand the games in time.

The problem now is that they reached the peak and are expanding sideways rather than upwards with expansions. This said, means thet are developing the hobby into a different game and setting a trend, which other games will follow but will take less time to achieve.

The cunning aspect is a development of miniatures at set pre-determined timeframes to balance trends and external factors. So, they can keep control of the market with high sales and release small aspects of sideways unseen hobby while regurgetating the old making it all seem knew.

In effect what they're doing is fair and just, if you want a ferrari cool uf you want a corsa then also coolyou can't expect the first to dramatically lower their prices.

[Necron2.0]

Incorrect. Discussing the weather is our third favourite pastime. :D

It was a close thing, I was undecided....

I've heard it said that only mad dogs and Englishmen go out in the mid-day sun. ;)


I'll just leave this here:

$37.25
[Marine links clipped]

$29.00
[Cadian links clipped]


$35.00
[Kroot links clipped]

I believe this speaks for itself. Notice the kroot have 6 more models than the marines but are actually cheaper. and are more intricate.

The differences between the three kits have less to do with production costs and more to do with supply and demand. Marines are GW's bread and butter unit. They go into all of GW's most popular armies, so naturally they'll be priced higher. Tau aren't nearly as popular so GW has to offer price incentives to get people to buy them. Cadians are cheapest of all, because non-GW substitutes are readily available from third party vendors and there's ₣Ʊ₵₭-all GW can do about it.

That in and of itself shows how GW's products are overpriced. In the products they have absolute control over (in the lofty name of IP), they're free to rape the consumer as much as they like. Where they cannot get away with it as easily, they have no choice but to come down. That's free-market forces at work, folks.

---

Just some random statistic:

If you google "raped by big business" (in quotes), you get 9330 hits.
If you google "GW overpriced" (in quotes), you get 769 hits.
If you google "Games workshop overpriced" (in quotes), you get 108 hits.

So it seems more folks believe we're being raped by big business than people believe GW is overpriced, by a factor of ten to one. ;)

[Psychosplodge]

I've heard it said that only mad dogs and Englishmen go out in the mid-day sun. ;)






It's true I gave myself sunstroke putting the tent up at Bloodstock, because I'd started at twelve and I wasn't stopping till it was done! :D

[Wolfshade]

That's why when watching cricket one should wear appropriate head gear and keep properly hydrated.

[Myu]

@Eldargal

You know, murder is considered pretty bad too (and I would hope you agree), but when someone says "this will kill my love for the hobby" or "I will crush you (at this game)" or "my wallet isn't going to survive this" you don't see people going on and on about that. They understand what you're trying to say.

One would think that killing people has it's own issues. Such as the psychological effect on those left behind and that the deceased not only has a soul destroying experience - they won't have any more experiences ever again. This is like violence in video games and sexual imagery in video games. Once sex in any form appears in something, people start to care. But killing? Well that's ok. I mean it's against the law and is just as extreme but I doubt you'd have a debate over it.

[eldargal]

'Killing your love' or what have you is a valid metaphor as it means the end of something, such metaphors have a long history and are accepted. Rape has very specific meanings and connotations of force, violation and power which are completely lacking in your examples, hence the invalid metaphor thing. Until GW start forcing you to buy their products against your will it will remain invalid as a metaphor.

For example, if you get a nasty letter from the guvmint saying you underpaid taxes and have to pay more now, you could legitimately say that your wallet/bacnk account/whatever was raped as an infinitely more powerful entity than you is forcing you to do something against your will, namely empty your wallet. It is still immature and hyperbolic, but the metaphor holds.

[Myu]

@Eldargal

I agree with most of that and i think in a way you actually proved my point. Despite the horrendous act itself, people understand the meaning and accept it. Rape in this sense is GW forcing us to pay enormous sums if we want to buy their product. I don't tell people what I pay for their models due to the shocked looks and feeling like I'm a nutcase for paying so much for so little. Some of those in question are laddies that don't think twice about spending huge sums on bland looking bead which they string around their neck or fashion products which really don't make any real difference to their overall appearance. $80 (or many times that) for a miniature spray can smaller than the GW pain pots is pretty sad.

No one is forcing me to buy their products, but using that as an argument is misses the point. The reason being that although the decision to but tier stuff comes from my liking the stuff, I must give up much more than is sane to do so. If I do not buy their stuff, I am sad because I really, really, like their stuff. If I DO buy, I feel queasy for spending so much on something while awesome, costs to much for what it is.

Also, it is easy to immediately see that both rape and high prices are awful. The fact that rape is far worse doesn't matter. The point is that it is something the OP felt was close enough to their heart to make such an anology. It's the extremeness of the act of rape it self, used like a swear word which emphasizes what they were trying to say.

I think the whole debate could have been over quickly if someone said "why did you use that metaphor" rather than what I predicted would happen of "zomg it's too much, kill them with ze fire! FIRE!!!!!!!!!!!".

[eldargal]

Well come to think of it you are in Australia so I wouldn't be quite so reticent about using the word rape to describe your prices, even if it is consistent with imports down there.:( But again for the metaphor to work there has to be an element of domination and violation, charging a lot of money for a luxury good just doesn't do it. If it were food or medication maybe

Again it isn't just that rape is worse, it is that rape is act of violation, domination and control. Asking you to pay high prices really isn't comparable. No violation nor domination.

[Bean]

Forget the rape analogy, that's obviously stupid, and (at this point) it's basically just acting as a smokescreen for a more fundamental error: the claim that, "high prices are awful."

High prices are not awful. There is no good reason to believe this, and no-one, including Myu, has presented one.

[Verilance]

As i have indicated previously prices are determined most likely by the wages earned in each country/price point

with my very limited example I showed that yes Australians pay more but they are also paid far more than their american brethren.

I am not a GW apologist by any means but I believe a realist. GW products are a luxury the price is set as such. I have spent far more on Compact disks and Video Games than I have ever spent on GW products granted I only have one army (two if you count I also bought my sons) hell last year I spent $1000 on manga because I enjoy reading them (a hobby my son got me into as well)

[krittoris]

first of I'd like to thank america for providing me with dirt cheap models.

In Australia, A tactical squad is 63 AUD online discount stores provide me with the squad at 27 USD, which is currently around 25 AUD.

now a rhino is around 25 USD in the same online stores, austrlian rates also make that about 24 dollars each.

now using these averages you find the following models come in at these rates:

landraiders 47$
predators 34$
assault squad 22$

the list goes on.

now the average wage for each country differs though australias is alot higher then most. so we have the best luck by buying from america. ( we cant buy finecast because it is far to hot here, it literally melts in our 45 degree heat and 50-80% humidity in the tropics.

this mean you can buy a space marine COMPANY for DIRT CHEAP!!!

6 tactical squads - 150$
4 rhinos - 96$
2 devastator squads - 48$
2 assault squads - 46$
3 predators - 102$
1 landraider - 45$
1 terminator squad - 37$
comand squad - 23$
3 landspeeders - 69$
6 space marine bikes - 60$
2 razorbacks - 46$

this is a full space marine company, with HQ elements, assault elements, a veteren contingent, heavy support and masse vehicles for transport.

this comes in at 722$ your postage with USPS will be around 120 bucks which means this army will likely cost you around 1000$ for FULL SPACE MARINE COMPANY!! ARE YOU JOKING?? omg wtf

aussies, stop buying from GW AUSTRALIA AND BUY FROM AMERICA, THE POOREST COUNTRY IN THE WORLD!!!!

[Xcerus]

first of I'd like to thank america for providing me with dirt cheap models.

In Australia, A tactical squad is 63 AUD online discount stores provide me with the squad at 27 USD, which is currently around 25 AUD.

now a rhino is around 25 USD in the same online stores, austrlian rates also make that about 24 dollars each.

now using these averages you find the following models come in at these rates:

landraiders 47$
predators 34$
assault squad 22$

the list goes on.

now the average wage for each country differs though australias is alot higher then most. so we have the best luck by buying from america. ( we cant buy finecast because it is far to hot here, it literally melts in our 45 degree heat and 50-80% humidity in the tropics.

this mean you can buy a space marine COMPANY for DIRT CHEAP!!!

6 tactical squads - 150$
4 rhinos - 96$
2 devastator squads - 48$
2 assault squads - 46$
3 predators - 102$
1 landraider - 45$
1 terminator squad - 37$
comand squad - 23$
3 landspeeders - 69$
6 space marine bikes - 60$
2 razorbacks - 46$

this is a full space marine company, with HQ elements, assault elements, a veteren contingent, heavy support and masse vehicles for transport.

this comes in at 722$ your postage with USPS will be around 120 bucks which means this army will likely cost you around 1000$ for FULL SPACE MARINE COMPANY!! ARE YOU JOKING?? omg wtf

aussies, stop buying from GW AUSTRALIA AND BUY FROM AMERICA, THE POOREST COUNTRY IN THE WORLD!!!!
Apply that same pricing theory to any other product in Aus.

If you want it to be worse - do it to any product in NZ.

Tervigorn 113.00 NZD
OR 57.75 USD = 70.9908 NZD

However:
iPhone 4 (Hand set only 32gb) $1199 NZD
OR 299.00 USD = 367.648 NZD

Here is the best one yet!
Kiwifruit: $0.53 each(Grown locally)
or
0.33 USD = 0.40 NZD < lolwut

ITS GROWN HERE! IT HAS TO BE FLOWN ACROSS A MASSIVE PUDDLE OF WATER - CALLED THE PACIFIC OCEAN!

AND IT COSTS LESS IN AMERICA!?

The problem, I regret to inform you, is not just Games Workshop.

[asteroidjawa]

So GW is using supply and demmand with a general disregard for exchange rates. That sounds about right since its a pain to constantly adjust your prices for retail goods.

[Wildeybeast]

Forget the rape analogy, that's obviously stupid, and (at this point) it's basically just acting as a smokescreen for a more fundamental error: the claim that, "high prices are awful."

High prices are not awful. There is no good reason to believe this, and no-one, including Myu, has presented one.

Spot on. If we are being objective, prices are either affordable for an individual or they are not. Any sort of moral judgement is irrelevant, as is this debate. If you can afford it, great. If you can't tough. GW owes no one any sort of obligation to keep their prices at a level affordable to everyone.

[Plowboy22]

In the end GW charges what people are willing to pay. It's also funny that people don't complain as much about FW prices.

[hippsman]

I'm sure there is a price point that GW could exceed and people would stop buying, but I'm sure that they hire really good people to see just how much we are willing to pay for our toys. when you have been invested in this hobby for 12 years and still like the game like me, you just are smart about buying. You buy 20% off or on ebay and you proxy and playtest so that you are not buying models you won't use. Expensive yes, but most hobbies are. Plus I have more success with this game than golf, so it works for me.

[Myu]

@Bean

If I could pay American prices, I wouldn't mind GW pricing at all (as high as that still is). However I don't have that luxury with the trade embargo and I'm not willing to spend hundreds of dollars on "cheap" products from the net and get conned like a friend of mine has been. Trust me, you'll stop needing people to convince you of why high prices are bad when you have to pay what I do.

I'm still amazed you need someone to convince you why high prices are bad though. Whatever floats your boat I guess. GW is certainly laughing all the way to the bank.

[Wildeybeast]

@Bean

If I could pay American prices, I wouldn't mind GW pricing at all (as high as that still is). However I don't have that luxury with the trade embargo and I'm not willing to spend hundreds of dollars on "cheap" products from the net and get conned like a friend of mine has been. Trust me, you'll stop needing people to convince you of why high prices are bad when you have to pay what I do.

I'm still amazed you need someone to convince you why high prices are bad though. Whatever floats your boat I guess. GW is certainly laughing all the way to the bank.

Prices are only 'bad' or 'high' dependent on your ability to pay them. A multi millionaire couldn't give a stuff about GW prices as they are pocket change to that person. As has been explained on a number of occasions by different people, GW prices are 'bad for you'. They cannot be bad in absolute sense, since they are not an essential product for human existence, any moral judgement you make about the pricing structure is eniterly subjective and based on your ability to pay for them. You cannot/do not wish to pay their prices and so you consider them to be bad, fair enough, but that does not mean there is naything inherently wrong with GW prices.

[Necron2.0]

And we're back to what I >>originally said<< (http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?p=176382#post176382) - GW does what it does simply because it can, like other predatory groups we're familiar with. :D

[lattd]

I would say because it has to rather than can, share holders demand a return, and GW has to run at a profit by law. FYI dividend payments by GW were up recently ;)

[Wildeybeast]

And we're back to what I >>originally said<< (http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?p=176382#post176382) - GW does what it does simply because it can, like other predatory groups we're familiar with. :D




And as a number of people have pointed out, what you originally said was offensive, immature and incorrect.

[Necron2.0]

Actually, what a number of people have done is flap their gums against an old and well established metaphor.

[Gir]

And we're back to what I >>originally said<< (http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?p=176382#post176382) - GW does what it does simply because it can, like other predatory groups we're familiar with. :D



Are you 12? Seriously.

[Necron2.0]

Says the one with grade schooler's Avatar. :D

And by the way, the iconography is extremely old:
>> William Vanderbilt Assaulting the US << (http://sophia.smith.edu/~maldrich/people/vanderbilt_william/1882graphicoct30.htm)

[Wildeybeast]

Says the one with grade schooler's Avatar. :D

And by the way, the iconography is extremely old:
>> William Vanderbilt Assaulting the US << (http://sophia.smith.edu/~maldrich/people/vanderbilt_william/1882graphicoct30.htm)




Seriously? That's your defence? People have used it for ages? Anti-semitism is as old as the hills and has been perpetrated by pretty much every society in the western world for the last two and half thousand years, but that doesn't mean it's acceptable to portray Jews as money grabbing vermin. Seriously, it's bad enough that you used the rape analogy in the first place, but then to dig it up again when the matter had been left by everyone else and to insist again that you were right says a lot about your charcter.

[Colonel Falkenberg]

I hate to think on how much it would cost to buy my armies new... BA/SM 9k, GK 3.5K, and my IG army at 13K points. I'd safely say that 25-35% was new from the store and the rest ebay. Ebay is your friend for hobbies like these.

[Uncle Nutsy]

hey necron2.0?

yeah, your rape analogy was just amazing to read. amazing in the sense that it takes an unparalleled level of ignorance on both items to make such a comparison. In all my time reading reading the multitudes of opinions and statements, I have never seen something so astounding.

[Arleucs]

As long as we pay for it...

in the end, we're just the ones to blame

[Psychosplodge]

As long as we pay for it...

in the end, we're just the ones to blame
^ We have a winner!!

[Necron2.0]

To Nutsy and other assorted nuts:

http://fc06.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2012/072/3/8/fuqueoffmoron_by_necron2_0-d4sm2dm.jpg

http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2012/072/b/b/pasimpsonshaha_by_necron2_0-d4sm1u2.jpg

Just so you know, I'm laughing at you. A LOT! I find this hysterical and could definitely go for as long as you want. You guys are so clueless it's funny as hell. You couldn't be any more wrong and you just cannot see it. Hell, you yourselves use the rape analogy all the time.

ALL. THE. TIME.

When you say, "Dang, that person screwed me over," do you have any idea what you're actually saying? Are you saying, "That person took me to dinner. Then we went to a movie, followed by dancing, drinks and then we went back to their place and made sweet, sweeeeet love all night long?"
HELL NO!
You're saying that person violated you. You're saying you got RAPED!!

Here's my advice: If you want me to keep laughing at you, go ahead and post your ignorance. Otherwise ... stop being a troll. Your choice.

[Uncle Nutsy]

"pwned by big business": 138,000 results

"trounced by big business": 256,000 results

"violated by big business" 11.5 million results.


Just because you have over 9000 results agreeing with your figure of speech, doesn't make you right. But that nelson post did crack me up a bit. :D

[Psychosplodge]

"Pigs fly" gets about 3.8 million results, still not seen one do it though...:D

[Wolfshade]

You are aware that two people doing identical searches on google will potentially give different number of matches based on. Then there are issues with pages which don't allow google to crawl through. Allow me to quyote wikipedia (yes I know it is not an authoritative source but ssh)

Note also, that the number of hits reported by search engines is only an estimate. For example, Google will only calculate the actual number of hits once the user navigates through all result pages, to the last one, and even then it places restrictions on the figure. At times, the hit count estimate can be significantly different (by one or more orders of magnitude) to the total count of results shown on the last results page.
A site-specific search may help determine if most of the hits are coming from the same web site; a single web site can account for hundreds of thousands of hits.
For search terms that return many results, Google uses a process that eliminates results which are "very similar" to other results listed, both by disregarding pages with substantially similar content and by limiting the number of pages that can be returned from any given domain. For example, a search on "Taco Bell" will only give a couple pages from tacobell.com even though many in that domain will certainly match. Further, Google's list of unique results is constructed by first selecting the top 1000 results and then eliminating duplicates without replacements. Hence the list of unique results will always contain fewer than 1000 results regardless of how many webpages actually matched the search terms. For example, from the about 742 million pages related to "Microsoft", Google presently returns 572 "unique" results (as of 14 December 2010 (2010 -12-14)). Caution must be used in judging the relative importance of websites yielding well over 1000 search results.

[Psychosplodge]

You are aware that two people doing identical searches on google will potentially give different number of matches based on. Then there are issues with pages which don't allow google to crawl through. Allow me to quyote wikipedia (yes I know it is not an authoritative source but ssh)
Basically what you're saying is google proves nothing?

[Wolfshade]

..maybe...

[Necron2.0]

Except that 9000+ is definitely and decidely more than zero, which is what a select few people have been claiming for a large portion of this useless thread.

;)

[eldargal]

Actually the meaning of coercion and power in 'screwed' were present long before it gained sexual connotations. Using the word screwed does not necessarily imply anything sexual when used in a context such as 'that person screwed me over'. It is a very different case from the word rape which means to be sexually violated, with no element of slang or connotation involved.

Your metaphor remains invalid. The fact that you claim to be laughing at others on the basis of this incredibly flimsy reasoning is actually quite amusing.:rolleyes:

To Nutsy and other assorted nuts:

http://fc06.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2012/072/3/8/fuqueoffmoron_by_necron2_0-d4sm2dm.jpg

http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2012/072/b/b/pasimpsonshaha_by_necron2_0-d4sm1u2.jpg

Just so you know, I'm laughing at you. A LOT! I find this hysterical and could definitely go for as long as you want. You guys are so clueless it's funny as hell. You couldn't be any more wrong and you just cannot see it. Hell, you yourselves use the rape analogy all the time.

ALL. THE. TIME.

When you say, "Dang, that person screwed me over," do you have any idea what you're actually saying? Are you saying, "That person took me to dinner. Then we went to a movie, followed by dancing, drinks and then we went back to their place and made sweet, sweeeeet love all night long?"
HELL NO!
You're saying that person violated you. You're saying you got RAPED!!

Here's my advice: If you want me to keep laughing at you, go ahead and post your ignorance. Otherwise ... stop being a troll. Your choice.

[lattd]

Could i point out that English law means that only women could be raped and that GW, has no ability to rape someone because its not a male..

In all seriousness its a disgusting analogy to use, especially when companies have to make money by the letter of the law.

[Necron2.0]

In all seriousness its a disgusting analogy to use, especially when companies have to make money by the letter of the law.

There is a difference between making a profit and manipulating and taking advantage of the customer. If you find the analogy disgusting ... GOOD! You should. I'd be worried for you if you didn't. The point is, in some respects what GW is doing is just as disgusting (not that they are unique in this area). I and many others can see that plain as day, based on the internet chatter. And whether anyone likes my use of the analogy or not is non sequitur. It is an old, well established analogy commonly in use.

And unfortunately the analogy is spot-on accurate, right down to the common excuses given. The more this goes on, the more I am absolutely convinced of it. Consider these common arguments:

GW Apologist: "Australians can apparently pay more, therefore they should be charged more."

Translation: "Given how she was dressed, she got what she deserved."

---

GW Apologist: "GW has invested much in developing the game in Australia, therefore it is only right they should charge Australians more."

Translation: "I bought her dinner, therefore she owed me."

---

GW Apologist: "The game is a luxury, therefore buying any GW products are a privilege."

Translation: "She should have been honored that I chose her."

The more this drags on, the more I'm seeing a direct, one-to-one symmetry.

[Wildeybeast]

There is a difference between making a profit and manipulating and taking advantage of the customer. If you find the analogy disgusting ... GOOD! You should. I'd be worried for you if you didn't. The point is, in some respects what GW is doing is just as disgusting (not that they are unique in this area). I and many others can see that plain as day, based on the internet chatter. And whether anyone likes my use of the analogy or not is non sequitur. It is an old, well established analogy commonly in use.

And unfortunately the analogy is spot-on accurate, right down to the common excuses given. The more this goes on, the more I am absolutely convinced of it. Consider these common arguments:

GW Apologist: "Australians can apparently pay more, therefore they should be charged more."

Translation: "Given how she was dressed, she got what she deserved."



I'm going to ignore the fact that you have once again used the utterly stupid justification that 'it's been used a lot in the past' as justifying something and focus on your ridiculous use of analogy. As anyone with any common sense knows, the strength of an analogy depends on how similar the objects are being compared. Let's look at just one of your examples (as I don't have time to waste on any more and one should suffice), that given above.

You compare Australians to how a woman was dressed. :confused: Could you point out any strong similarities between those things, because I'm not seeing any similarities at all beyond the fact they both mention people. How can you possibly claim that the average wages of a nation is any sensible way analgous to a woman's choice of dress, never mind spot-on accurate? This pathetically weak anaolgy means that your comparison between pricing structure and rape is not only offensive but deeply flawed. Please just leave this alone, your analogy is weak, stupid and offensive and you are simply embarassing yourself with repeated assertions that it is acceptable. I'm not expecting you to admit you are wrong, but at least have the good grace to stop these pathetic assertions that you are correct.

[lattd]

Everyone Complains that GW is expensive but there's many ways to make it cheap and i much prefer GW to apple, but no one complains that apple are expensive or an evil company. Yet when talking about GW, who are a niche firm competing with the video game market on the grounds that they are entertainment companies they are evil? Some games that only have 8 hours of story are £50 ive spent more time painting 2 units that cost less than that.

[Necron2.0]

I much prefer GW to apple, but no one complains that apple are expensive or an evil company.

Actually, there are entire online communities dedicated to how hard Apple sucks.

As for comments made by others ...

http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2012/072/8/c/tmwl8_by_necron2_0-d4snpoe.jpg

[gendoikari87]

, but no one complains that apple are expensive or an evil company.
SRSLY Bro? Srsly? GW may be another heartless corporation but they never drove enough people to suicide they had to put suicide nets on their buildings.


How can you possibly claim that the average wages of a nation is any sensible way analgous to a woman's choice of dress, never mind spot-on accurate?
It's a horrible analogy. A better analogy would be selling water to a man in the desert for $100 a glass, or better yet selling it to a village for $100 bucks a glass, if you can't afford it, tough crap. which is precisely why the "but it's just a hobby you don't have to buy it" argument is bull****, yeah it's just a hobby, but the laws governing both essentials and non essentials are the same. Whether you need it to live or not, does not matter. They do it because they can. If it was the proper demand curve they'd be selling these little plastic mini's for $1000 pop, but it isn't. Not that their current prices aren't outrageous, just at the proper place on the supply/demand curve to generate maximum profit. Irregardless of anything resembling fairness. but that's capitalism, and GW is hardly alone and far from the worst offender.

[Wildeybeast]

It's a horrible analogy. A better analogy would be selling water to a man in the desert for $100 a glass, or better yet selling it to a village for $100 bucks a glass, if you can't afford it, tough crap. which is precisely why the "but it's just a hobby you don't have to buy it" argument is bull****, yeah it's just a hobby, but the laws governing both essentials and non essentials are the same. Whether you need it to live or not, does not matter. They do it because they can. If it was the proper demand curve they'd be selling these little plastic mini's for $1000 pop, but it isn't. Not that their current prices aren't outrageous, just at the proper place on the supply/demand curve to generate maximum profit. Irregardless of anything resembling fairness. but that's capitalism, and GW is hardly alone and far from the worst offender.

I disagree with your view on essentials and non essentials. The laws aren't the same, as when necessary, the government regulates prices on essential products in order to stop profiteering and in the UK 'essential products' are exempt from tax. There will never be a situation in which the government needs to regulate the prices of toys. Secondly there is the moral factor. Selling water at an exboritant price to a drought stricken african village is morally unacceptable by most people's standards. Selling plastic toys to wealthy citizens in the developed world is not. IMO the 'it's only a hobby' argument does hold water, but I agree entirely that GW sells at prices it feels it can get away with, as I think do most people. The issue seems to be that some people think this is 'not fair' for some reason and I really don't understand why.

[Bean]

Wildeybeast is right, Gendo, and if you'd read that article on price gouging I mentioned earlier, you would understand.

Essentials and luxury items are treated differently, both by economists and by the law. To the extent, in fact, that the term price gouging pretty much applies only to the pricing of essentials.

[gendoikari87]

IMO the 'it's only a hobby' argument does hold water, but I agree entirely that GW sells at prices it feels it can get away with, as I think do most people. The issue seems to be that some people think this is 'not fair' for some reason and I really don't understand why.

well lets extrapolate this. Lets assume for a minute that I just bought every major consumer electronics manufacturer in the entire world, and I did a re-assement of the demand curve now without major competition (this is basically GW or how GW views itself, a virtual monopoly). I then decide that I can maximize profits by marking everything at 1000% of their base costs before the buy out. Your iPod is now $1,879.99. Your TV is now$18,799.99. Your computer because of it's utilitarian purposes is even more marked up and is now $25,000. You don't have to have a computer though right, it's superflous. It's a gadget, and if you can't pay too bad. That's what i now with my monopoly have marked it at because that will maximize profits. Oh and the average internet bill? is now a few grand a month.

But all this is okay because people will pay for it, at least a few privileged people will. **** the rest, if they can't pay too bad for them, they can have their stone age.

Of course this is an inflated scenario, to put things in perspective.

[gendoikari87]

Wildeybeast is right, Gendo, and if you'd read that article on price gouging I mentioned earlier, you would understand.

Essentials and luxury items are treated differently, both by economists and by the law. To the extent, in fact, that the term price gouging pretty much applies only to the pricing of essentials.

only when it become necessary for society to function. Otherwise, no. You'll notice gas and oil prices are very supply/demand driven. Oh, but that's not a necessity, bull****, in modern society, it is. As well as housing.... and food. Though food has some odd laws, and mess that go with it, it's still largely supply/demand.

[Uncle Nutsy]

every time I see that nine thousand hits, I always think of this... http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=SiMHTK15Pik#t=9s


The more this drags on, the more I'm seeing a direct, one-to-one symmetry

heh. the only thing i'm seeing is someone who wants to be right SO BADLY that they've become blind to counterpoints. I think you'd be much better served by not working backwards from a previously decided upon conclusion.


genki: just read your viewpoint and there's a few problems with it. One, every government in the world would split you six ways from sunday before you even made a sale. Two, the value of all the currencies would change almost overnight, negating your titanic markups. Three, you'd find it a monumental challenge to buy even one twentieth of those companies, even with the best lawyers on your side.

[wittdooley]

well lets extrapolate this. Lets assume for a minute that I just bought every major consumer electronics manufacturer in the entire world, and I did a re-assement of the demand curve now without major competition (this is basically GW or how GW views itself, a virtual monopoly). I then decide that I can maximize profits by marking everything at 1000% of their base costs before the buy out. Your iPod is now $1,879.99. Your TV is now$18,799.99. Your computer because of it's utilitarian purposes is even more marked up and is now $25,000. You don't have to have a computer though right, it's superflous. It's a gadget, and if you can't pay too bad. That's what i now with my monopoly have marked it at because that will maximize profits. Oh and the average internet bill? is now a few grand a month.

But all this is okay because people will pay for it, at least a few privileged people will. **** the rest, if they can't pay too bad for them, they can have their stone age.

Of course this is an inflated scenario, to put things in perspective.

You really are an idiot with no grasp on how these things work, aren't you?

Why do you keep using your "starving man in the desert" example when it clearly doesn't fit?

Further, the absurdity of the above 'example' -- and I use that term very loosely, as I've heard more cogent arguments about why one of my wife's 4th graders should get an XBox for Christmas -- really proves that you have no idea how to even make an analogy work.

Quit huffing primer, go to your local community college, and take a basic economics course. Yikes.

[Grenadier]

If there's ever an "Occupy Games Workshop" movement I shall take my right wing butt and join them.

[Bean]

You really are an idiot with no grasp on how these things work, aren't you?

Why do you keep using your "starving man in the desert" example when it clearly doesn't fit?

Further, the absurdity of the above 'example' -- and I use that term very loosely, as I've heard more cogent arguments about why one of my wife's 4th graders should get an XBox for Christmas -- really proves that you have no idea how to even make an analogy work.

Quit huffing primer, go to your local community college, and take a basic economics course. Yikes.

This.

Except the part about his wife. I don't know anything about his wife. =P

[gendoikari87]

You really are an idiot with no grasp on how these things work, aren't you?

Why do you keep using your "starving man in the desert" example when it clearly doesn't fit?

Further, the absurdity of the above 'example' -- and I use that term very loosely, as I've heard more cogent arguments about why one of my wife's 4th graders should get an XBox for Christmas -- really proves that you have no idea how to even make an analogy work.

Quit huffing primer, go to your local community college, and take a basic economics course. Yikes.

Took more than one thank you, almost got a minor in business at that, aced them all. and the above monopoly analogy is completely valid, unless you would like to point out how it's not. FYI, ad hominem attacks don't actually make a good argument.

Also, you've proven you have no idea what the starving man in the desert analogy represents. Go learn something about supply/demand.

[thereverend]

GW have the best miniatures designers, the best painters and the best miniatures in the world and someone has to pay for those privialages...

and we're all adults, if we don't agree then we don't ahve to support them. personally I'd like things to be a little cheaper but if I couldn't afford something I wouldn't buy it.

[Cuddy]

It's a horrible analogy. A better analogy would be selling water to a man in the desert for $100 a glass, or better yet selling it to a village for $100 bucks a glass, if you can't afford it, tough crap. which is precisely why the "but it's just a hobby you don't have to buy it" argument is bull****, yeah it's just a hobby, but the laws governing both essentials and non essentials are the same. Whether you need it to live or not, does not matter. They do it because they can. If it was the proper demand curve they'd be selling these little plastic mini's for $1000 pop, but it isn't. Not that their current prices aren't outrageous, just at the proper place on the supply/demand curve to generate maximum profit. Irregardless of anything resembling fairness. but that's capitalism, and GW is hardly alone and far from the worst offender.


Actually, a big part of the criticism of Games Workshop is that they may be misinterperating the actual demand elasticity of their products. This isn't coming from upset fans alone either, there's a lot of qualified analysis on their figures.

This is a good example:

http://dukesinferno.blogspot.com/2011/07/financial-analysis-of-gw.html

I took economics too, and from experience my guess is that they're unrealistic about how much of a monopoly they have. Companies will refuse to acknowledge less copyright friendly and harder to challenge alternatives even though they exist; it scares shareholders and a lot of times they don't have the data on it anyway. Think of internet downloading for movies and music and how those industries reacted. GW probably thinks of Warmahordes, and maybe DnD as competition, but thinks that its product is differentiated and that it has a fairly high price elasticity (both true). They probably don't acknowledge the second hand market, knock offs, creating "counts-as" and things like Vassal as real competition, or at least not accurately.

GW is right that people are willing to pay a fairly high premium over its costs, that's not being disputed. It has a lot of control over its market. Its just that a lot of people think it doesn't have as much as it thinks it does, and it seems that the numbers are backing that up. :)

[Necron2.0]

Second post of the thread:

GW charges what they do because the can.

... and 16 pages later:

They do it because they can.

http://fc02.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2012/072/c/b/whistle_by_necron2_0-d4snzh5.gif

Full circle yet again...

===

Of course, these threads always bring out the Kool-Aid drinkers and your standard gaggle of Trolls - each only possessing the capacity for ad hominem attacks, or for arguing semantics over non sequiturs, or to engage in douchebaggery in general.

Getting back to the OP's topic - no. As these 16 (and sure to keep growing) pages have shown,nothing has been laid to rest.

Tah tah, pip pip and cheerio.

[Joshuawesome]

remember a few months ago, right after the price increments, ban on online store delivery to the lower hemisphere and the announcement of fine cast, when everyone swore they were going to boycott gw products?

Is anybody still observing the boycott?

If you aren't thenyou have proven gw (and the op) right. gw products are "premium products" and "luxury goods". people will buy them no matter the price. it makes perfect economic sense to continue to raise prices and increase profits.

[gendoikari87]

remember a few months ago, right after the price increments, ban on online store delivery to the lower hemisphere and the announcement of fine cast, when everyone swore they were going to boycott gw products?

Is anybody still observing the boycott?

If you aren't thenyou have proven gw (and the op) right. gw products are "premium products" and "luxury goods". people will buy them no matter the price. it makes perfect economic sense to continue to raise prices and increase profits.

Does not make it right, however.

[Wildeybeast]

Of course, these threads always bring out the Kool-Aid drinkers and your standard gaggle of Trolls - each only possessing the capacity for ad hominem attacks, or for arguing semantics over non sequiturs, or to engage in douchebaggery in general.

And indeed those who make offensive and immature posts, can't construct a valid argument because they don't understand how to use analogy properly, can't defend their arguments beyond 'lots of other people do it so it must be ok' and those who when faced with reasoned critiques of their views resort to posting silly pictures, but hey ho, that's the internet for you. :D

[Morgan Darkstar]

Does not make it right, however.

Nor does it make it wrong.

[gendoikari87]

Nor does it make it wrong.

No, but in my opinion, however, it is wrong.

[Bean]

No, but in my opinion, however, it is wrong.

Fair, but this is an opinion for which you've offered no actual rational support. I could say, "GW prices are a frog" and it would be an "opinion" with exactly the same validity and legitimacy as this opinion of yours.

[Uncle Nutsy]

Took more than one thank you, almost got a minor in business at that, aced them all. and the above monopoly analogy is completely valid, unless you would like to point out how it's not. FYI, ad hominem attacks don't actually make a good argument.

Also, you've proven you have no idea what the starving man in the desert analogy represents. Go learn something about supply/demand.

aaaand you've completely razed what little credibility you had on the subject with the 'i'm smarter than you!' defense.

you may have done well in a course you liked, but it doesn't mean your example (it's really not an analogy) is correct. If it was, it would stand on it's own without you having to retreat to this wall you built. And as for pointing out how it's not.. i just showed you where in my last post. It was just terrible and easily deconstructed.


anyways, it's been fun but there are people in this thread that understand that gw set their prices to what the market can bear and those who just don't, and continue to resort to indefensible positions.

[gendoikari87]

you may have done well in a course you liked, but it doesn't mean your example (it's really not an analogy) is correct. If it was, it would stand on it's own without you having to retreat to this wall you built. And as for pointing out how it's not.. i just showed you where in my last post. It was just terrible and easily deconstructed.no, in your own words you kinda proved my own point.


just read your viewpoint and there's a few problems with it. One, every government in the world would split you six ways from sunday before you even made a sale.
Really why is that, I'd just be doing what every other company does, selling at the best point on the supply/demand curve to maximize profits for my shareholders. Or are you saying that's wrong....



Two, the value of all the currencies would change almost overnight, negating your titanic markups.
So what I still have a monopoly? I still make as much as I can based on supply/demand, and I can control the price.


Three, you'd find it a monumental challenge to buy even one twentieth of those companies, even with the best lawyers on your side.You have no point there, one of the hypothetical pretexts was if I were to do that, not IF i could.


Fair, but this is an opinion for which you've offered no actual rational support. I could say, "GW prices are a frog" and it would be an "opinion" with exactly the same validity and legitimacy as this opinion of yours.Better than your argument which is simply circular logic.

And with this I leave, because if it hasn't gotten through to you yet, you are too dense to ever get it.

[Bean]

Really why is that, I'd just be doing what every other company does, selling at the best point on the supply/demand curve to maximize profits for my shareholders. Or are you saying that's wrong....

He's talking about setting up the monopoly. Governments basically don't let companies buy up other companies within major fields to the point of monopoly, because it's bad for the market. Charging what the market will bear is not wrong--and that's what GW is doing. Creating a monopoly and using that monopoly to charge more than what the market would otherwise bear on things that are essentially necessary is both illegal and wrong--and not even remotely similar to what GW is doing.



Better than your argument which is simply circular logic.


I haven't offered a circular argument, and I don't like people lying about what I've written. Quote the circular logic I've offered, or retract this. Thanks.

[scadugenga]

He's talking about setting up the monopoly. Governments basically don't let companies buy up other companies within major fields to the point of monopoly, because it's bad for the market. Charging what the market will bear is not wrong--and that's what GW is doing. Creating a monopoly and using that monopoly to charge more than what the market would otherwise bear on things that are essentially necessary is both illegal and wrong--and not even remotely similar to what GW is doing.


Incorrect. Governments *try* to keep companies from gaining "monopoly" status.

Look at Microsoft. They've been slammed with antitrust suit after antitrust suit, and they're still doing the same thing over and over. Governments hit them with a fine. They pay it, and it's all part of their overhead. Because by continuing to be a monopoly, they make more money than they would elsewise--even with the fines taken into account.

Another example: here in the US--Barnes & Noble is almost a default monopoly on brick & mortar bookstores. To the point that B. Dalton bookstores (a B&N owned subsidiary) filed antitrust suits against B&N to stop them closing B. Dalton stores back in the '90's. And they kept on closing stores. Last year, it's chief rival closed (RIP Borders), and no one has the wherewithal to get to "rival" status. Amazon is an online retailer, so doesn't really figure into the argument--and if Congress has its way about making online sales pay taxes, you'll see Amazon sales (and in fact, many online retailer sales) drop off markedly, I bet.

[Uncle Nutsy]

one of the hypothetical pretexts was if I were to do that, not IF i could.

"If I were to do that" ties into "every government in the world would split you six ways from sunday". Cause and effect, my good lad.

but whatever. Just like a lot of people i've seen here, you think you're right and no amount of debunking, deflating, puncturing, dissection or critique will help you see any other perspective other than your own. And you'll continue to argue for about six more pages until others just give up in exasperation.

So I guess i'll just watch and lol at this whole thing from now on. With that said.... anyone want popcorn?

[Bean]

Incorrect. Governments *try* to keep companies from gaining "monopoly" status.

Look at Microsoft. They've been slammed with antitrust suit after antitrust suit, and they're still doing the same thing over and over. Governments hit them with a fine. They pay it, and it's all part of their overhead. Because by continuing to be a monopoly, they make more money than they would elsewise--even with the fines taken into account.

Another example: here in the US--Barnes & Noble is almost a default monopoly on brick & mortar bookstores. To the point that B. Dalton bookstores (a B&N owned subsidiary) filed antitrust suits against B&N to stop them closing B. Dalton stores back in the '90's. And they kept on closing stores. Last year, it's chief rival closed (RIP Borders), and no one has the wherewithal to get to "rival" status. Amazon is an online retailer, so doesn't really figure into the argument--and if Congress has its way about making online sales pay taxes, you'll see Amazon sales (and in fact, many online retailer sales) drop off markedly, I bet.

A fair point.

I would quibble with your examples, though. Microsoft did get broken up, and they have plenty of competition both in the personal and business software markets; Amazon absolutely does figure into the B&N picture--the difference between an online retailer and a brick and mortar retailer is basically irrelevant, here.

More importantly, the difference between the government having a standing policy of breaking monopolies and actually succeeding in breaking all monopolies isn't really relevant to the proposed hypothetical.

And, of course, Games Workshop isn't anywhere near a monopoly.

So, a fair point, but not one that lends any weight at all to either side of the argument.

[Grenadier]

Having read this topic I can now fully understand and appreciate the meaning of "facepalm."

[Suffokate]

I'd like to see justification on a $41.25 Biovore. A forty point model for 41 bucks, it's a bit insane.

[Wolfshade]

I'd like to see justification on a $41.25 Biovore. A forty point model for 41 bucks, it's a bit insane.
That is an easy one, because people will pay for it.

[ZolBatar]

Okay, having had a bit of spare time on my hands I've read through all 18 pages of this and I'm more than a little confused.

If it's too expensive for you, don't buy it; go and play something else. Or maybe work on your career to improve your disposable income.

Video games: I love them, but I can't afford more than one or two a year, how can a 10 pence DVD cost so much?

Clothes...have you seen how much a branded t-shirt costs these days?

[woodenronin]

I can't believe this thread has so many replies. ( felt left out so I had to post)

[Uncle Nutsy]

Okay, having had a bit of spare time on my hands I've read through all 18 pages of this and I'm more than a little confused.

If it's too expensive for you, don't buy it; go and play something else. Or maybe work on your career to improve your disposable income.

Video games: I love them, but I can't afford more than one or two a year, how can a 10 pence DVD cost so much?

Clothes...have you seen how much a branded t-shirt costs these days?


exactly! but I guess some people just don't get it. It's just easier to complain than to actually do something about it.


I'd like to see justification on a $41.25 Biovore. A forty point model for 41 bucks, it's a bit insane.

because it's a heavy support. All heavy supports are higher priced. why? because they're heavy support. LOL. Like a Ravager is twenty bucks more than a Raider here. The two differences is an extra sprue and the points increase. Other than that, they're the exact same kit. But I'm not complaining. I just deal with it.

[Necron2.0]

And red cars go faster. Why? Because they're red.
;)

[Bean]

And red cars go faster. Why? Because they're red.
;)



Actually, there have been some interesting studies about why we associate redness with high speeds. Turns out can be explained, at least in part, by the way the eye mechanically reacts to red light. Neat stuff.

[Suffokate]

Okay, having had a bit of spare time on my hands I've read through all 18 pages of this and I'm more than a little confused.

If it's too expensive for you, don't buy it; go and play something else. Or maybe work on your career to improve your disposable income.

Video games: I love them, but I can't afford more than one or two a year, how can a 10 pence DVD cost so much?

Clothes...have you seen how much a branded t-shirt costs these days?

I've yet to see GW put out a "Platinum Edition" version of any of there models, also since we are stringing along on the video game theme, a lot more time and energy and man power goes into producing a video game than into the designing and production of a miniature. Also as a video game grows older the price on goes down as well, yet the price of GW minis has only gone up. I can't even think of a single loss leader that GW has.

And as to the "If it's too expensive, don't buy it" I agree, and it's why I haven't bought anything from them in 3 years, and they won't continue to see any more of my money, as I feel that the value of what I am buying isn't a good one.

I feel that the majority of arguments surrounding this the "value" of the hobby, and in times of recession, you examine what exactly isn't measuring up in your pocketbooks.

[victorpofa]

My biggest gripes with GW price hikes are frequency (especially when the prices are based on utility in the game rather than cost of materials), and the fact that Failcost is more expensive than metals despite the rampant quality control issues still around a year later.

YMMV

[Bean]

My biggest gripes with GW price hikes are frequency (especially when the prices are based on utility in the game rather than cost of materials), and the fact that Failcost is more expensive than metals despite the rampant quality control issues still around a year later.

YMMV

I kinda get the bit about finecast (though, there, they're probably recouping some development cost) but why would pricing a model based on its utility in game be a bad thing? Makes a great deal of sense to me.

[Necron2.0]

Why would pricing a model based on its utility in game be a bad thing?

Actual, here's what I think the crux of the problem is. What GW is doing is not all that different than what most companies do. Many companies charge inflated prices for "specialty" items. Again, why do they do it? Because they can. Like I said from the beginning, par for the course.

What makes GW's policies so egregious though is there almost National Socialist behavior regarding what they call "Intellectual Property" in combination with their pricing policies. Individually, either one of these are excusable. Together however it is really very galling, and could be construed as monopolistic practices (which is illegal in the States). It cannot be said that GW is egalitarian with respect to potential competitors. You put a laser pistol on an image of Sir Galahad and they will likely come after you.

And what makes it all the more galling is that GW products are all variations on a theme. GW didn't invent elves, either in fantasy or SciFi. They didn't invent genetically engineered super-soldiers. They didn't invent space knights in armor. They didn't invent Crusaders. They didn't invent Orks. They didn't invent tanks. They didn't invent gothic architecture. They didn't invent manga-style Battletech armies. They didn't invent WWII Russian armies. Then didn't invent wargames. They didn't invent ....... you pick it. Anything at all, GW was not the first to do it, or the second, or even the third, and despite what some may tell you, they weren't even always the best at it. But if YOU even look like you might be deriving from their derivative, they'll sue your arse as if they were.

That, to me, is what cheeses people off so much - that GW has the very real appearance of forcing consumers down a very narrow path only to do despicable things to them at the end of it.

[Thornblood]

GW were the first adults to have such appalling grammar when it comes to Dwarfs.

[Uncle Nutsy]

"national socialists"

HAH! good going necron.. you're now irrelevant.

[Bean]

"national socialists"

HAH! good going necron.. you're now irrelevant.

Lol, just now?

[Necron2.0]

Ah, trollish. Wish I could expect better than impotent ad hominems, but at least you're good for a laugh. By the way you completely botched the reductio ad Hitlerium reference. Nice try, though.

http://fc09.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2012/075/1/9/tmwl1_by_necron2_0-d4szqo8.jpg

[Bean]

It's cute that you don't actually know what an ad hominem is, Necron, but don't worry--lots of other people make the same mistake.

Here, read this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

[Necron2.0]

HA! Epic reading comprehension fail.

http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2012/075/d/0/tmwl2_by_necron2_0-d4szs2z.gif

[Chris Copeland]

Awesome! This current iteration is about to hit 20 pages! Woo-hoo! Go us! :P

[Bean]

HA! Epic reading comprehension fail.



But, hey! Props for being willing to laugh at yourself. =)

[Wildeybeast]

Actual, here's what I think the crux of the problem is. What GW is doing is not all that different than what most companies do. Many companies charge inflated prices for "specialty" items. Again, why do they do it? Because they can. Like I said from the beginning, par for the course.

What makes GW's policies so egregious though is there almost National Socialist behavior regarding what they call "Intellectual Property" in combination with their pricing policies. Individually, either one of these are excusable. Together however it is really very galling, and could be construed as monopolistic practices (which is illegal in the States). It cannot be said that GW is egalitarian with respect to potential competitors. You put a laser pistol on an image of Sir Galahad and they will likely come after you.

And what makes it all the more galling is that GW products are all variations on a theme. GW didn't invent elves, either in fantasy or SciFi. They didn't invent genetically engineered super-soldiers. They didn't invent space knights in armor. They didn't invent Crusaders. They didn't invent Orks. They didn't invent tanks. They didn't invent gothic architecture. They didn't invent manga-style Battletech armies. They didn't invent WWII Russian armies. Then didn't invent wargames. They didn't invent ....... you pick it. Anything at all, GW was not the first to do it, or the second, or even the third, and despite what some may tell you, they weren't even always the best at it. But if YOU even look like you might be deriving from their derivative, they'll sue your arse as if they were.

That, to me, is what cheeses people off so much - that GW has the very real appearance of forcing consumers down a very narrow path only to do despicable things to them at the end of it.



Your quite right that GW didn't invent the concepts you metion, and as far as I'm aware it isn't trying to to protect them. What it is trying to do, with say the chapterhouse case, is to protect it's trademarked terms and intellectual property from use by other companies. There may be cases I'm not aware of where GW has taken people to court for using space elves or orcs, but I doubt it. If they were doing what you suggest, they would be pursuing Bungie for the use of genetically engineered future super soldiers who are mankind's last hope against the alien hordes that wish to destroy them.
I'd also like to question why you think GW is under any obligation to be egalitiarian towards it's competitors. Business are under an obligation to treat competitors fairly only so far as the law compels them too. If you could point to an example where GW has broken competition law, that would be good.
If you could provide a reasoned defence of your comments, rather than ignoring my challenges or posting silly pictures, people would probably take you a bit more seriously.

[Uncle Nutsy]

Ah, trollish. Wish I could expect better than impotent ad hominems, but at least you're good for a laugh. By the way you completely botched the reductio ad Hitlerium reference. Nice try, though.

well... I could use it properly, but here? nah. it's more fun to not spend twenty minutes on a single post. sides. i'd rather make people laugh. It keeps me from going into nerd-rage. :D

[Ziac45]

I think the problem here is that we are discussing (If you can even call it that anymore) the wrong thing. Before I mention what I think the real question is here I would like to call on everyone to take a step back, a deep breath, and remember that we are all members of the same community and should respect each other. So with that out of the way here we go!

The question is not so much are GW's prices too high. That is something that people disagree about and honestly even the idea of "too High" is a personal opinion. GW is selling models, they are making money and by that standard they are not "too high". The Real question is two fold, is it good for the long term of the company and the game? As well as is it driving people away from the game to other systems?

In my opinion, I stress OPINION I am no expert on business my degree is in history and I haven't taken a single business course so use a grain of salt. But I believe that it IS bad for the long term of the game. Why do I believe this you might ask (If you even care about the ramblings of a gamer)? I believe that it is preventing people from starting th game. I have a friend who used to play (he played Tau) he enjoyed the game but did not like the army that he felt he was kinda forced into. Recently he had been looking at starting an army that he had always liked and felt would lead him to enjoyng Warhammer again. This army was orks, this is a great guy to, woulda been an assett to the gaming community. He did not take the plunge entirely due to price, to him it was too high to justify.

Now that is just one example but more are out there and most gamings know a few people that do not start because of the price point. Again, not saying it's too high I am saying it prevents people from entering the hobby. Not everyone is turned off and every price point will turn off some. But is it starting to turn away more people then it's attracting? I again lean towards yes on this with the exception of younger children whose parents do their purchasing, and people with high paying jobs (A rarity in this economy).

The second question that I believe is at the center of figuring out if GW pricing is, I want to say off, is are veteran Gamers leaving for differing systems? I also believe the answer to this is yes. Many gamer's I know personally have started Warmachine, Infinity, Malifaux, and even some kings of war. Why are they doing this? In this case it isn't entirely due to the price. Reasons vary from Codex creep, to nerfing of armies (Tyranids/Witch Hunters two that hit me very close to home) and a lack of game balance. Now a lot of these people when their favorite faction got hit with the hammer looked at starting a new army. This is where they were driven off, do I buy a 400-500$ army that will be fun, and competetive, for a few months until they are nerfed? Or do I go to a different system drop 100$ and play a new, better balanced, and cheaper game? Normally they decide the latter.

So the problem is multi fold, in my belief GW prices are too much for what they are giving the community and their players. They give us broken rules (Magic in Fantasy, Vehicles in 40K) nerfed codices so they can focus on another variety of space marines (Tyranids and the White Dwarf Sisters of Battle) and models that are priced incredibly high.

All of the incredibly long above post is my opinion, this is what I BELIEVE is going on with the game. Feel free to disagree but please treat me with the respect that you wish me to treat you with (this thread could deal with a lot more of that). Also as a background I love warhammer and 40k, I have 4 40k armies, and 2 fantasy armies. As much as I want to start another (Word bearers) I will not. This IS due to the price it is not worth it to me anymore to build armies that I want beacuse it simply costs too much money. I have also stopped purchasing new models and am making due with what I have. If the price dropped I would continue purchasing and pursue probably 2 or 3 more armies in total.

[Dameon01]

they jacked up prices and we all complain then still buy it anyways

[pappsy]

they jacked up prices and we all complain then still buy it anyways

truth

[Filthy Sanchez]

My biggest issue with GW is that a portion of the customers are practically begging for a more airtight rule system and they basically respond with "Meh."

Seems like a mistake to ignore any portion of your customer base. There has to be some kind of profit/loss scenario where the rules can be improved while increasing profitability by selling more to the people that want this.

[o0HoldFast0o]

Wow heck of a thread for a first post! /dives in.


I am a very recent 40k fan and a retailer. I own a Coffee House (full of games, tv's and xbox's). I received a call from a GW rep in July of 2011 asking if we were interested in carrying their products. I had actually never heard of Warhammer/40k! After a bit of research into the game, and talking to some of my customers we took the plunge and made a 40k/paint account with them. I fully expected to lose money on the proposition and have an enjoyable few months with very few players.

Fast forward to now! ALL of our players are rank newbs- less than a year into the hobby. Most have at least 1 army up to 1850pts. We have hit a couple tournies (smallish affairs at Stormcrow Games in Lubbock tx- 4hours away) and done pretty well.

Here is my take as a new customer, selling to new customers, and running a retail outlet selling GW products:

1. My first impression on pricing. I thought the hobby was crazy expensive. Looking at boxes of 5 models for $50 seemed daunting- and to have to build and paint them at that price, buying all the paints/hobby stuff to do it was quite staggering.

2. 1 month into the hobby. Addicted to plastic crack, boxes are flying off the shelf, I am rapidly trying to learn how to paint well, know the rules well enough to help with games, building tables ect. I find that people are dropping xbox 360 controls to play with little plastic dudes.... and I have chicks playing as well!

3. Prices no longer seem that crazy. The models are beautiful if painted well, all of the hobby supplies are pricey but very high quality. I have 0 players complaining about price.

4. GW makes sure that retailers can make a profit, and stay in business! GW pricing to retailers, and their seeming draconian crack down on online retailers actually allow me to make a profit selling their products. In fact my margin is good enough that I offer 15% off msrp for in stock items if you pay in cash, and 20% off MSRP for orders if they are prepaid. GW's margin to me allows me to do this and not go broke! Our store is in the middle of nowhere (zip 79005... google it) and we have no competition for over 100miles! So I offer the discounts to encourage players here instead of them ordering from GW. I also own a gym and sell fitness products, and the margins on them are so slim that you barely break even (if you try to compete with online retailers and wal-mart). With GW I can keep growing and growing my stock.

5. My recommendation to retailers. I built a couple coffee shop armies for kids/trial gamers/and the destitute to play with. I want people to have fun!, and with an army they can use in house thats easy. Here is where it becomes smart: I built a blood angels army first. I made it large- 1850 pts. Painted it quickly but decent enough (3 colors, simply based). THEN not only encouraged new players to try it out, but also encouraged them to buy space marine boxes- of any flavor- that they might be interested in that they could play in conjunction with with coffee house army. Immediately those customers have something to build, something to play, and haven't spent that much to do it. What you find is that the hobby is VERY fun for beginers not jaded by the inter-webs and 5 generations of learning their armies. GW has a good business model, that new players do want to get into.


I question plenty of the decisions GW makes as a company, but honestly getting in at this point and not being a part of all of the hiccups and previous versions, I love it! I have just expanded to carry all the GW lines... and Malifaux... and Infinity.... and Battle Foam....ect ect.


Sorry for the long first post! I'm happy to meet you all!

[wittdooley]

Great first post man. Welcome.

[Nrthstar]

Wow heck of a thread for a first post! /dives in.
........................
Sorry for the long first post! I'm happy to meet you all!

Cut down your original just to keep it simple.

Glad to see your GW business is thriving. The price changes popped up at the same time my store was considering picking up the product. After a couple of phone calls with GW we weren't totally convinced we were ready to pull the trigger since the player base nearby was pretty jaded, and we didn't know if we'd have the opportunity to form a whole new crowd, especially with a lot of the old school crowd jumping ship for other games.

[marsdonut]

That is indeed a great post, @o0Holdfast0o. You are definitely blessed as your community grows.

I am alright with the price changes that happen, but I find it disappointing the same product thats been on the shelf for years went up and that quality isn't up to par with the latest release. As a gamer, I am jaded by conforming to the core of the rulebook. Were I free of my obligation, I would at best have a new look on their merchandizing.

[Deadlift]

@ o0Holdfast0o, well mate your a breath of fresh air I have to say :)
Could use a store like yours here in sleepy devon, uk if you ever fancy expanding across the pond lol.
Welcome to the forums.

[RFHolloway]

Need more stores like that everywhere! the best bit about the hobby is that the store is not just a shop but also a meeting place. It beats the MMO environment because you can actually show your wife/parents/ non geek friends something physical that you have made and spent all you time on.

[Wolfshade]

Gaming Coffee Shops sounds awesome, or GW hobby stores start selling "Imperial Recaf" :eek:
Whenever my mates and I are playing we are always drinking tea. Its also nice to get an outsiders persective of the pricing (I say outside, I think Holdfast is now definately an insider). One of the big things is that the more you use it the so the cost per use decreases

[o0HoldFast0o]

Thanks guys!

I think the most game stores would benefit from having a different "hook" than just gaming. It sounds a little counter intuitive, but I can't tell you how many new customers I've gotten by people (mostly men) seeing a bunch of us slinging dice and asking "what is this?". They came in for coffee/tea/smoothie whatever, and end up spending 2 hours trying to figure out what the game is all about.

Most males, and certainly all gamers (from cards to consoles), love this game if they will just try it out. So what has to be removed are the entry barriers: Price, Complex rules, and gaming group of non-douchbags that will teach without getting testy! For all my beginning players when we started I sold them armies at my cost- that way we could all get into the hobby cheap, I also bought army builder, and all the rule books to help people start to get a handle on rules. As far as gamer attitude I think its top down- I am very competitive, but laugh and joke around whether I am winning or losing. For us the big difference is that the core business was healthy- so gaming wasn't something that needed to make money, just not lose too much! At this point I'm getting ready to start advertising in all the towns within ~60 miles, and add on to our building so that I can add more tables.

I see war-gaming in general as a growth industry, at some point a company may supplant GW as the leader, but that is likely far off. Almost every game store I have gone to has GW AND something else popular. Ihave yet to find one that is a different games system with GW brands as the secondary game system.

[UltraBlood]

For me I have accepted that any hobby is going to have some cost to do it. So it boils down to do I feel I get that amount of enjoyment out of the hobby.

I think for me the rub if you will on the GW pricing is most times you can find it online at a 10% to 20% disount which makes it a little more bearable if you will. That however does not allow me to keep my money local if you will at the closest GW store. I am very fortunate in the fact the person running the closest GW store is very cool and has excelent customer service skills.

[Mr_E]

I think one of the first posts said it best. It's not that I disagree with OP's argument that GW can justify their ridiculous prices (We're raising metal prices because the price of metal is up, but cheap-as-hell resin has a higher MSRP!) but all that means is I'll never buy from GW retail. Living in the us means that if I really want something in the box, shrink wrapped and shipped to my door, I can get it at 20% off GW list price. If I want to go a step further, places like bartertown and eBay mean I can get almost anything I need -stupid- cheap. Sometimes, if buying in high amounts, 50% off. A gentlemen on Bartertown offered me 3 predators and several razorbacks for just about 50% off list price, all of them new-in-box.

GW can justify whatever they like and refer to themselves as a 'prestige' game but the truth is, those of us who aren't playing flavor of the month armies (Looking at you, everyone who switched to GK!) and who are just fine with out 2nd edition 2-piece space marines aren't going to be clearing shelves with the cost of a tac squad being what it is.

Privateer Press may have a lot more options being a smaller company, but one thing they do is try to keep prices fair, and they pay VERY close attention to their playerbase. There are a ton of forums for 40k, but the best Warmachine forum is PP's own. It really makes you wonder when GW decided to shut it's doors and ascend the ivory tower instead of hanging out with it's playerbase.

I've gotten way off topic here, but my point stands.

[gendoikari87]

they jacked up prices and we all complain then still buy it anyways

well more and more are simply quitting. But I'd like to see hard figures on new players. Not sales data, not profits, actual hard data on new people, not armies being brought in.

[o0HoldFast0o]

well more and more are simply quitting. But I'd like to see hard figures on new players. Not sales data, not profits, actual hard data on new people, not armies being brought in.


For us it went from 0 to 20 in 9 months :p


Really you will know quickly if they are making mistakes because their core stores will start closing. You saw the same thing with Starbucks a few years ago. They made some bad choices on how they treated employee tips, and over expanded (there is a street in Houston with a Starbucks on 3 of the 4 corners), and as soon as coffee prices and shipping went up they folded- well closed about 1/3 of their stores. If their doors stay open they are probably doing the right things, if not well there ya go! It is possible they are anticipating massive increases in shipping costs, mandatory employee health care, property taxes, and general cost of doing business increases and are padding things now accordingly.

[Brother Glacius]

I can't say I'm a fan of GW prices any more than the next guy, but they do put out amazing stuff. I've got more than enough armies and models to keep my painting and playing for years, but I still pick up those shiny new boxes and head to the counter. There should be a GW Anonymous group to help us out...with a 10 step program and all. :)

[xxvaderxx]

They are pricing themselves out of the market, i just hope they realize before its too late.

[wittdooley]

They are pricing themselves out of the market, i just hope they realize before its too late.

Oh really? Example? Their bottom line would seem to differ.

[gendoikari87]

Oh really? Example? Their bottom line would seem to differ.

Bottom line is only total revenue, and really only a good measure of short term profitability. With their price increases they can do the same while selling less, or better while selling at a flat rate. But even the models sold aren't a true indicator of their performance for the long term. for that you need data on people, how many people are leaving/starting, the game. number of models sold while not perfect is a better representation of this than the bottom line. But since you're so damn smart you know this already.

BTW does anyone have any sales figures on the number of models sold? or just bottom line?

[Bean]

Bottom line is only total revenue, and really only a good measure of short term profitability. With their price increases they can do the same while selling less, or better while selling at a flat rate. But even the models sold aren't a true indicator of their performance for the long term. for that you need data on people, how many people are leaving/starting, the game. number of models sold while not perfect is a better representation of this than the bottom line. But since you're so damn smart you know this already.

BTW does anyone have any sales figures on the number of models sold? or just bottom line?

I agree, you need data on the number of people who are leaving/starting the game, but that data hasn't been presented. Remember, Ikari; you are the one whose been making positive claims about the state of the business. You are the one who needs that data to back up your assertions, and you don't have it.

Your post here pretty much completely undercuts your entire argument up to this point--and rightly so.

[gendoikari87]

because that data hasn't been collected. So your right there is no hard evidence. That being said there is plenty of anecdotal evidence of significant stagnation if not player drop offs. But anecdotal is anecdotal, what we need is real data to be collected on the subject and that GW doesn't investigate this is worrysome.

[Bean]

because that data hasn't been collected. So your right there is no hard evidence. That being said there is plenty of anecdotal evidence of significant stagnation if not player drop offs. But anecdotal is anecdotal, what we need is real data to be collected on the subject and that GW doesn't investigate this is worrysome.

There's also anecdotal evidence of significant growth--like the coffee-shop-guy's 20 new players.

Anecdotal evidence just doesn't really cut it.

And yes, I would like GW to investigate it--but neither you nor I know that they don't. Indeed, they seem to have a business plan that they're comfortable with. They might be idiots who haven't bothered to gather the sort of data they'd need to come to that conclusion legitimately, but I'm not sure there's any real reason to think that this is the case.

[Wildeybeast]

This is a moot point. How can GW, or indeed anyone, possibly keep track of the number of people leaving/joining the hobby? An annual survey might give a rough indication, but that will be deeply flawed as most people who have given up will have little interest in completing a survey and many people who still play won't bother. If it were possible, I'm sure GW would already be doing it. The number of people actively playing is also a false indicator of the health of the business. I play regularly but haven't bought anything since last autumn. What matters to GW is how much stuff people buy. The most reliable indicator is like for like unit sales in stores and on the web, but I'm not sure if GW publishes this information. That would tell you whether more people are buying more stuff or GW is masking declining sales with higher prices and new stores/products.