Ideas on GW

[lattd]

So i have been thinking recently (Many people have told me this could be dangerous to my health).

Many people seem to want GW to have stricter rules and this got me wondering. What if games workshop developed a tournament FAQ, so instead of having one rulebook for both tournament and friendly games why can't we have the main rule book as the friendly version and then a tournament pack which tightens up the rules and sets out a tournament structure.

Also a price drop really wouldn't hurt the company, and public testing rules.

[SotonShades]

A price drop certainly would hurt the company. We all buy the rulebooks. For the vast majority of players, we buy the models from GW or an Independent retailer (who buy the models from GW). If the rulebooks were cheaper, we would still only buy one each (with the possible exception of special edition rulebooks) and we would still buy armies to 1500/2000 points and probably change them about as often.

I say we; personnally I don't buy much from GW anymore because I all ready have 3 armies that are quite happy playing at Apocolypse level, I don't have a huge amount of cash to buy any more stuff and when I do buy, it tends to be individual models I need or componants. When you are buying like that, even my FLGS staff suggest buying FW or Third party/bitz sites.

As for public testing rules? Why buy something when you have all ready been given it for free? Sure there are a few die-hards who will buy the rule book for the background, and people new to the game who would buy after the free test rules dissappear, but that'd be a small number of units sold compared to the current model. They did try it before with the assault rules between 3rd anf 4th Ed 40k. It was a bit of a hassle making sure you were both playing the same ruleset, especially as a lot of people didn't buy or get the chance to buy the WD that the rules were in and far fewer people had access to the internet to download a copy.

The idea of a tournament FAQ is better in some aspects. The main problem then becomes that you would have 2 games with similar rulesets. A lot of people would play the tournament set all the time. When going in to a GW store and playing a pick-up game, you would have to agree which set you were using and I garauntee you that people would get confused between the two, playing rules from the friendly version while playing a tournament version game and vica versa. It can all ready be difficult enough in some areas to find an opponant who plays the same game as you. Having to find someone who plays the same game and the same version would just reduce the number of hobbyists further.

It is deffinitely true that 40k is not written with a tournament style of play at the forefront of the design philosophy. That said, I've yet to really have a problem with the ruleset when I have been to tournaments that don't restrict what you were allowed to take. The ones with comp or that try to limit or rule out certain units create their own imballances, often bigger than those inherently within the system. Yes there are other table top wargames with tighter balance and more tournaments friendly rules, but they tend to lack the bredth of experience and variety that GW games offer. Some of the bredth comes from having a slightly chunkier, slightly flabby ruleset. Personnally, I like that.

[Deadlift]

So i have been thinking recently (Many people have told me this could be dangerous to my health).

Many people seem to want GW to have stricter rules and this got me wondering. What if games workshop developed a tournament FAQ, so instead of having one rulebook for both tournament and friendly games why can't we have the main rule book as the friendly version and then a tournament pack which tightens up the rules and sets out a tournament structure.

Also a price drop really wouldn't hurt the company, and public testing rules.


I would be interested to know what % of players actually bother with tournaments at all, obviously a lot of forum contributors do but what about your casual gamer who doesn't spend much if any time on relevant forums. I suggest that that the reason we only have one rule set is because a tournament edition just wouldn't sell enough to warrant the publication expense, however theres not to stop GW having additional rules in the back of the rule book for tournament use or just publishing free ones to print via a PDF.

I am guessing that lots of tournaments also already have their own "official" interpretation of the rules also ?

I do think that a rule set for tournaments will also produce an even greater number off snobbery asshats who will gleefully gob off about how they only play tournament rules.

As for a price drop, who would argue against that :D (besides shareholders)

[Kawauso]

Tighter rules benefit everyone, not just competitive players.

Case in point: Magic: The Gathering. End of discussion. :P

Seriously, though. Tighter rules that don't allow for interpretation are good. It means when you go somewhere else and find a new play group, you're all playing the same game and not some 'regional interpretation' of the rules.

As has been stated previously as well...cheaper prices would be great. But it's not gonna happen. :)

[wittdooley]

Tighter rules benefit everyone, not just competitive players.

Case in point: Magic: The Gathering. End of discussion. :P

Seriously, though. Tighter rules that don't allow for interpretation are good. It means when you go somewhere else and find a new play group, you're all playing the same game and not some 'regional interpretation' of the rules.

As has been stated previously as well...cheaper prices would be great. But it's not gonna happen. :)

Not always true. See: Rubberbanding in the Privateer thread. Spirit of a rule is, IMO, an importnat thing.

[Wildeybeast]

Depends what you mean by stricter rules. If you mean 'better written, less ambigious rules' then I'm all for it. If you mean rules that kill creative army building and stop 'beardy' lists, then I say no. Whilst I don't like cheesy lists and rules exploits, I like that the game gives you the freedom to be creative. Too much structure makes for boring games and sucks out the creativity. GW has always said they want the rules to act as a guide and inspiration, not a stick to beat gamers with. I can't see there being any viability in a tournament book, because you basically just need the TO to buy it and diseminate the rules to particpants, which drastically limits your market.it would also limit what the TO can do in terms of fun rules, so I think it's a non-starter.
As for a price drop, whilst it would be nice for consumers, it ain't going to happen. The amount of multi-nationals that can realistically afford a meaningful price-drop is very small in this economic climate.

[DarkLink]

Many people seem to want GW to have stricter rules and this got me wondering. What if games workshop developed a tournament FAQ, so instead of having one rulebook for both tournament and friendly games why can't we have the main rule book as the friendly version and then a tournament pack which tightens up the rules and sets out a tournament structure.


If they take the time to clean up their rules, there's absolutely no reason why only tournament players would play with the cleaner rules. Removing ambiguities, typos and loopholes helps everyone regardless of competitiveness.

[Kawauso]

Not always true. See: Rubberbanding in the Privateer thread. Spirit of a rule is, IMO, an importnat thing.

While I don't fully understand the issue due to my complete lack of familiarity with PP game systems, it sounds like an issue with the rules that needs to be addressed. It doesn't seem to have anything to do with whether or not clearly written and concise rule-sets that don't allow for ambiguity are good for a game system. In fact, it seems like more evidence in favour of it, as it looks like the result of some room for ambiguity in the rules.

[Grenadier]

I too have been thinking. Which is often dangerous to the health of others.

"There's an app for that."

I find it a pain in the posterior to keep up with all the latest updates, errata, FAQs, and more published by GW. "Where's the rules for this?" "Where's that army list at?" "Is there an updated version of this?" A seemingly never ending release of books and White Dwarfs containing the sought after information. For example, I have a Baneblade. It's rules are not in the Imperial Guard codex. It is elsewhere. And it also apparently can be found in the Apocalypse book.

So why not have an app for that? In addition to printed material why not develop an app for your I-This or I-That? And this app would contain the current rule book. But why stop at that? You can download to it any codex or other publication as you deem necessary. Anything and everything you'd want to look up would be at your fingertips. And its all integrated into one app which could be very user friendly to interact with.

But go one step beyond! In addition to all this within the app you'd be able to punch in your army list. Simply by touching the unit you want and the upgrades for it. The app would calculate your points for you as well. And so you're not laden with books and sheets and sifting through this or that. You'd have a handy dandy little electronic gizmo at your disposal. Why, the app could even have a built in dice roller that generates random numbers for you.

Altogether this should streamline the game and make battles go by quicker. With my opponent there's always a considerable amount of time spent looking up this rule or that unit or this bit of wargear.

Also...

I've been left feeling that GW is less about the hobby and more about the cash. After all they have to make a profit. But it seems to me in many ways the game has been dumbed down and sanitized for your protection in the name of making a buck. The latest codexes for example. I miss Imperial Guard doctrines or Space Marine chapter traits. Gone. And units now seem to be less characterful and bought as generic.

[Deadlift]

I am not sure GW are just all about the money, either way they still produce some of the finest mass produced minitures about.

[Grenadier]

I do agree with that. Nobody beats them when it comes to the quality of mass produced models. And there's so many examples of this. Such as the Dreadnought models. I don't know about Finecast as I've yet to acquire any. When and if I ever do my long dreamed of Dark Eldar army I will know.

However, there are some who make as good, and sometimes better models on a smaller scale. Reaper makes some lovely models. In particular their female ones. And there was a game called "Confrontation" by Rackham (I think) which had some superb models.

But in the end...

The best thing about Games Workshop is they encourage us to do with our models as we please. They give us a lot of freedom to make the army we want. And how we want to it to look. Their rules pertaining to appearance are minimal. I only wish they'd reinstate doctrines and chapter traits to further personalize an army. Still, a savvy player with extensive knowledge of his codex can tweak it a bit to get a little something more personal out of the existing choices.

[lattd]

I agree for encouraging conversions changes differences in armies GW has no equal.

I would say bring their forgeworld stuff into the main fold the more toys to use in the game the merrier imo. Not the big stuff in normal games but some of the special characters the army lists, the average units etc

[Kawauso]

I'm sure that the writers/designers and sculptors/painters working for GW are very much interested in making the game cool and interesting, and most of them probably have a lot of passion.

That said, I've worked in a number of game studios, and the ones in charge/financing/running the joint (especially a publicly-traded corporation like GW) want profit, and their edicts will temper whatever the design/art teams are working on.

[Grenadier]

Indeed and and agreed! I'd never have bought a Baneblade if not for the fact GW's is far cheaper than FW's. Now...if only GW would make Titans. One day I want to own a Reaver.

Another idea of mine is to see more diversity of human armies:

A Japanese themed Guard army would be nice. What with the fact many of the Guard are based on WW1 or other era troops.

To that end a new Space Marine chapter based on feudal era samurai would be awesome. Especially since many of the new models for specific chapters are becoming more distinct from vanillas. Imagine power armor based on samurai armor and those awesome ornate helmets! And imagine the special rules one could envision for this army.

Or, how about some human army that is not affiliated with the Imperium, Chaos, or slaves to the Tau? Like maybe a civilization of humans that advanced while being entirely cut off from the Imperium. Thereby forcing them to maybe adopt alien technology or even develop their own unique technology that the Priesthood of Mars surely would not approve of?

[Charistoph]

Or, how about some human army that is not affiliated with the Imperium, Chaos, or slaves to the Tau? Like maybe a civilization of humans that advanced while being entirely cut off from the Imperium. Thereby forcing them to maybe adopt alien technology or even develop their own unique technology that the Priesthood of Mars surely would not approve of?

Heh, I'm sorta working on something like that, though it's more Gundam Wing by way of Gue'vesa.

I need to get cracking on finishing the first draft here, I've been reminded too much of it int the last few days.

[Wildeybeast]

I too have been thinking. Which is often dangerous to the health of others.

"There's an app for that."

I find it a pain in the posterior to keep up with all the latest updates, errata, FAQs, and more published by GW. "Where's the rules for this?" "Where's that army list at?" "Is there an updated version of this?" A seemingly never ending release of books and White Dwarfs containing the sought after information. For example, I have a Baneblade. It's rules are not in the Imperial Guard codex. It is elsewhere. And it also apparently can be found in the Apocalypse book.

So why not have an app for that? In addition to printed material why not develop an app for your I-This or I-That? And this app would contain the current rule book. But why stop at that? You can download to it any codex or other publication as you deem necessary. Anything and everything you'd want to look up would be at your fingertips. And its all integrated into one app which could be very user friendly to interact with.

But go one step beyond! In addition to all this within the app you'd be able to punch in your army list. Simply by touching the unit you want and the upgrades for it. The app would calculate your points for you as well. And so you're not laden with books and sheets and sifting through this or that. You'd have a handy dandy little electronic gizmo at your disposal. Why, the app could even have a built in dice roller that generates random numbers for you.

Altogether this should streamline the game and make battles go by quicker. With my opponent there's always a considerable amount of time spent looking up this rule or that unit or this bit of wargear.

Also...

I've been left feeling that GW is less about the hobby and more about the cash. After all they have to make a profit. But it seems to me in many ways the game has been dumbed down and sanitized for your protection in the name of making a buck. The latest codexes for example. I miss Imperial Guard doctrines or Space Marine chapter traits. Gone. And units now seem to be less characterful and bought as generic.

I think it's a really good idea, but it has two major problems. Firstly, I'm not sure GW has the tech guys necessary to make that. Secondly cost. If you can download the rulebook for it, it will cost at least as much as the real life one so you are looking at paying £35+ for an app and people won't pay that much for apps, at least not in enough numbers to make it viable. GW could run a system where you buy an actual rulebook and get a one use only code to acces it on an app, but would enough people buy the app to make it viable? Making the rulebooks/army books available for sale on e-readers would be a good idea and I think would generate quite a lot of sales without costing GW too much to do.

[eldargal]

A few things to bear in mind:

-GW are a models company first and foremost, rules are secondary.

-The vast majority of their player base buy models because they look nice rather than how they perform on the battlefield.

-A fair proportion of GW customers don't even play at all, they collect armies because they like the models.

-The vast majority of players play friendly games with friends and don't care about compettitive play.

All these points have been mentioned in interviews, Standard Bearer and at Games Days at some point or another. So it is unclear how much benefit GW would actually get from making a really tight, competitive ruleset to go alongside the regular one. Having said that there is no real objection to it, and some rumours for 6th ed point to their being some kind of supplemental competitive system.

[Grenadier]

I did consider my app idea to be one that would be prohibited by cost. I'm technologically retarded and do not own I-This or I-that. and I've never had need of one. I do think it is still possible. Perhaps if GW released a cheap electronic device made specifically for the app. An electronic rule book if you will, on something akin to a Kindle perhaps. I'd imagine in time the cost of these kinds of devices will lower greatly and they'll be even more commonplace than they already are. Especially if other companies began manufacturing cheap versions for specific uses. At which point GW perhaps could adopt one for this idea. Not that would of course.

[Wildeybeast]

I did consider my app idea to be one that would be prohibited by cost. I'm technologically retarded and do not own I-This or I-that. and I've never had need of one. I do think it is still possible. Perhaps if GW released a cheap electronic device made specifically for the app. An electronic rule book if you will, on something akin to a Kindle perhaps. I'd imagine in time the cost of these kinds of devices will lower greatly and they'll be even more commonplace than they already are. Especially if other companies began manufacturing cheap versions for specific uses. At which point GW perhaps could adopt one for this idea. Not that would of course.

Hmm, i like that idea. Your own GW exclusive device. I think that the technology at the moment is still prohibitvely expenisve, but in the future, who knows? GW certainly embraces technology in regards to making models, so why not other areas? It could be good to see WD available in electronic form too.

[Grenadier]

Who knows what the future holds? Real power armor? GW Titans? Actually there's something close to it now. A 40k trilogy on par with Star Wars I hope.