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pathwinder14
02-24-2012, 06:02 AM
I present to you an alternative to Deathstar, MSU, and Rainbow lists.

Hydra lists:

Many armies have a key unit. Sometimes it’s a death star unit, other times it’s the single unit an army build revolves around. This can be a great bonus due to its increased threat level, but it can also be a detriment for the very same reason. Many other armies operate with Multiple Small Units. These are good at creating multiple threats but are often beaten by capitalizing upon the weakness of one unit and repeating it for the rest. Still other players have taken to using rainbow lists that spread out redundancy but do not repeat the weaknesses of MSU. Rainbow lists can still fall into the trap of having a few large and expensive units that tie up a lot of points. What to do?

I have noticed something different. What if someone were to create a list that spreads out battlefield redundancy but limits the size/cost of units so as to even out the respective threat levels? For example, I have noticed people who take smaller death star units tend to have them survive longer. They are not perceived by the opponent to be as large a threat as the fully fleshed out version of the same squad. This change in perception often makes them target the unit less often. A small Death co. unit survives much longer than its larger counterpart because there are only a few models in the squad instead of a fully sized squad.

We can apply this idea to an entire army build. Most units in an army can be made to present a (roughly) equal threat level so the opponent does not know which one to target first. For example, let’s say you have a tac squad with missile launcher and meltagun standing by a hill next to their razorback with twin linked lascannon. Let’s also say you have a 10 man devastator squad with 4 missile launchers sitting on the other side of that hill. Which is the bigger threat on turn 1? The devastators are the bigger threat; of course. However, let’s say you drop 2 of their missile launchers and now they only have 2. Which unit is now the bigger threat? That’s hard to say. Which would you target early in the game?

If many of your squads are even in points cost/upgrades/threat levels your opponent will not be able to easily discern a "key" unit. In fact it may appear to them that you have no single key unit. This will make it harder for them to find the weakness to your army.

Wolfshade
02-24-2012, 07:23 AM
You could argue that a MSU list uses this approach after all which one of the 6 assault squads in lasplas razor backs are more critical as they are all identical

pathwinder14
02-24-2012, 08:52 AM
You could argue that a MSU list uses this approach after all which one of the 6 assault squads in lasplas razor backs are more critical as they are all identical

No it does not because as I already pointed out the identical nature of MSU is it's weakness. What deals with one unit deals with all. That's the inherrent weakness of MSU.

I'll give you an example of what I mean:
HQ: Reclusiarch with jump pack and infernus pistol
E: 3 Sang priests with jump packs
E: Sang guard with Chapter banner, 1 PF, and 2 infernus pistols
T: 10 man assault squad with 2 meltas and 1 PF
T: 10 man assault squad with 2 meltas and 1 PF
T: 10 man Tac squad with Melta, Missile launcher, PF, Infernus pistol, Razorback with twin linked lascannon
FA: Balls Pred twin linked assault cannon and Heavy Bolter sponsons
HS: 10 Devastators with 4 missile launchers (combat squaded)
HS: Pred - lascannon turret, no sponsons

It's roughly 2000 points. It has lots of overlapping battlefield roles. It has plenty of tank punch. It has plenty of close combat. It has scoring troops. It has lots of boots on the ground. It has plenty of armor.

Yet it has no central "key" unit. It has no death star. It has no MSU weaknesses. And the threat levels it presents are pretty evened out. Your opponent will have a tough time cracking this nut as its balance presents no easily exploitable weakness. It is as I call it, a hydra list.

Wolfshade
02-24-2012, 09:25 AM
But what kills a marine, kills a marine regardless whether it is assault, tactical, devastator, veteran or scout. So everything that can take out a marine can take out everything in your list with relative ease bar the tanks. What I think you are trying to do is make the target priority a difficulty and hopefully overwhelm the opposition in such a way that they cannot possibly take out all of the "alpha" level threats. But, you can also do that with MSU, give your opponent too many targets and if they are all equiped similiarly then you have enough redundancy in the list to still achive the objective

pathwinder14
02-24-2012, 11:20 AM
But what kills a marine, kills a marine regardless whether it is assault, tactical, devastator, veteran or scout....
No. That's incorrect. Yes they have the same stat line, but that's it. What kills a tactical squad may not kill an assault squad. What kills a devastator squad might not kill a tactical squad. By your argument 2 lictors could wipe out an assault squad just as easily as they could wipe out a devastator squad. By your argument 4 heavy bolters can take out a near field tactical squad just as easily as a back field devastator squad.

To put it differently...if you take those 6 las/plas razorback assault squads you'll get owned by any decent gun line army. However if you diversify the make up of your army list as I suggest, you have just turned the tables on that gun line becausee each unit presents it's own unique skills and abilitys beyond the stat line, forcing your opponent to come up with diffferent methods to deal with each one.


...What I think you are trying to do is make the target priority a difficulty and hopefully overwhelm the opposition in such a way that they cannot possibly take out all of the "alpha" level threats...
Yes and no. I am trying to make target priority very difficult. I am actually trying to overwhelm the opposition so that when they finally figure out their target priority, they have to react to each target differently.


But, you can also do that with MSU, give your opponent too many targets and if they are all equiped similiarly then you have enough redundancy in the list to still achive the objective
Yes, but once you figure out how to defeat the MSU's all you have to do is repeat the solution. In a Hydra list, an enemy lascannon may take out my las/plas razorback assault squad, but it will not be effective against my jump pack assault squad.

Bean
02-24-2012, 01:10 PM
Lots of armies take this approach. This is hardly a novel suggestion.

Wolfshade
02-27-2012, 03:16 AM
For the lictors as an assault/devastator/tactical/vetran all have the same stats it really doesn't matter they are all striking at I4 vs the I6 of the lictors. It is all about where they are on the field which list picking won't help. Similiary the odds of 4 HBs taking out a squad are the same as long as you are in range.
As you say a decent gun line will take out 6 las/plas razorback assault squads so what they will do with even less squads to aim at is obvious.
I myself generally build armies which can use multiple units to do the same thing which aren't necessarily identical, but will still often take the same unit multiple times, even in your example you do this...
I applaud what you are trying to do but as Bean says:

"Lots of armies take this approach. This is hardly a novel suggestion. "

pathwinder14
02-27-2012, 06:35 AM
For the lictors as an assault/devastator/tactical/vetran all have the same stats it really doesn't matter they are all striking at I4 vs the I6 of the lictors. It is all about where they are on the field which list picking won't help. Similiary the odds of 4 HBs taking out a squad are the same as long as you are in range.
As you say a decent gun line will take out 6 las/plas razorback assault squads so what they will do with even less squads to aim at is obvious.
Meh. I still say different squads present different threats.


I myself generally build armies which can use multiple units to do the same thing which aren't necessarily identical, but will still often take the same unit multiple times, even in your example you do this...
I applaud what you are trying to do but as Bean says:
Thanks. It may not be novel in your area, but where I play it is rarely done.