Wahammer 40k blood angel tactics?

[swculver]

So I've never played Warhammer 40k, but I've watched a few games and decided to buy a Blood Angel army, I started out by buying two Death Company squads, The Sanguinor, Astorath the Grim, Terminator Assault Squad, Sanguinary Guard, a Crusader Land Raider, Stormraven Gunship, and a Whirlwind.

I'm looking for ideas on how to employ the troops I have so far. Also what upgrade and troop combinations might be good ideas. I might buy a chaplain and 2-3 Sanguinary Priests to intergrate into my troops. Also a maybe a Furioso dreadnoght or two, and Sternguard Veterans with combi melta and combi plasma upgrades.

[ElectricPaladin]

The first thing you need to do is decide which kind of Blood Angels army you want to build first. You'll probably eventually end up acquiring the models you need to switch back and forth, but when you first start a game it's important to get yourself ready with an army that can win you some games at the level you will play.

That said, here are the Blood Angels army themes as I see them:

* Descent of Angels: This is a foostslogging jump pack army that falls out of the sky. You need a LOT of assault marines with jump packs (do yourself a favor and magnetize the jump packs so you can use them as Razorback Assault Squads if you feel like it later). The strengths of this kind of army are that it's fun to play; there's nothing quite like watching your opponent turtle up his army because he's afraid of you. It's not a bad army, but my impressions is that it has a lot of weaknesses which stop it from being truly competitive at a really high level of play, not the least of which is that it involves a lot random chance. You will also have to paint a LOT of assault marines, which may be a plus if you like painting power armor. This build also has some bad matchups, as I learned when my opponent started playing a "Wall of Tanks" Imperial Guard army...

* Fast Mech: The Blood Angels have a special advantage where all their vehicles built on the Rhino chassis (Rhino, Razorback, Predator, Vindicator, Whirlwind) are Fast. Thus, you can build a mechanized Blood Angels force that can jet around the battlefield with hard-to-match flexibility. The advantage of this build is that it's probably the most competitive, and you get to mix up your power armor with some cool-looking tanks. The disadvantage is that everyone will look at you funny for being yet another razorspammer.

I also recommend buying the models that are special and specific to the Blood Angels: Furioso Dreadnoughts, Death Company boxes (also - they contain a lot of great bits you can use to make sure your "ordinary" marines look more like Blood Angels!), Stormravens, and Sanguinary Guard. The Sanguinary Guard models are particularly beautiful, in my opinion. These are good investments because codices will rise and codices will fall, but the stuff that makes Blood Angels special will probably always be worth fielding in some quantity.

Finally, I'd stay away from Sternguard Vets. They're not bad in a Blood Angels list - I've got some models built up to be fielded as Sternguard, myself - but they don't really add anything. The Blood Angels excel at assault. If you want to add covering fire to your Blood Angels list, I'd recommend something that also accomplishes something else. A tac squad, for example, can soften up enemies before an assault squad charges them, but they can also hold objectives. A conventional dreadnought can be configured for long, short, and medium range fire support, and it's also great at smashing things in melee.

[woodenronin]

I would suggest at least 1 tactical squad. I find myself filling at least 4 troop choices that can hold an objective.

[woodenronin]

Also welcome to the game.

[MaltonNecromancer]

Death Company are a bit of an awkward unit because they're just so damned expensive when you start to properly trick them out. Give them Jump Packs and you'll see what I mean. If you're going to run a Death Company, run it in a unit of no less than five to ensure survivability (because Feels No Pain is useful, but it doesn't confer invincibility), and make sure you either Deep Strike it so it can't get shot up while it goes berserk, or run it in a rhino so it can't go bananas until you want it to.

Death Company Dreads are fun, but they quickly become veeery expensive because of the Death Company boys you have to play to "unlock" them. However, dropped from the back of a Stormraven, they're really quite fun.

[swculver]

[QUOTE=ElectricPaladin;175590] * Descent of Angels: This is a foostslogging jump pack army that falls out of the sky. You need a LOT of assault marines with jump packs (do yourself a favor and magnetize the jump packs so you can use them as Razorback Assault Squads if you feel like it later). The strengths of this kind of army are that it's fun to play; there's nothing quite like watching your opponent turtle up his army because he's afraid of you. It's not a bad army, but my impressions is that it has a lot of weaknesses which stop it from being truly competitive at a really high level of play, not the least of which is that it involves a lot random chance. You will also have to paint a LOT of assault marines, which may be a plus if you like painting power armor. This build also has some bad matchups, as I learned when my opponent started playing a "Wall of Tanks" Imperial Guard army...


I like the 'decent of angels" ability. Speed and maveurability are what I want I think, but as far as troop choices, blood angel assault squads seam to be the only choice for jump infantry, and they don't seem to have great upgrade options... I like them though

[thecactusman17]

Don't bother with tactical squads. Your assault marines can take more tank-killing weapons and will fare much better in assault.

Remember, every powerfist in your Death Company should be carrying a regular bolter--the relentless means that Rapid Fire will increase your shooting potential and you'll never get the close combat bonus for a powerfist anyway.

I would not have recommended the Whirlwind, but it can be of use against hordes. Remember that there is no minimum range when you have direct LOS, and keep that thing zipping around the backfield.

A good option for the list expansion will be a Death Company Dreadnought, tossed into the Stormraven. Give it Blood Talons and you will chew through infantry every assault phase.

Until you have a dread, put the Terminators into the Stormraven. The extra mobility will help immensely. When you do have a dread, put them into the Land raider, so that your opponent has to deal with two hard to kill vehicles instead of one.

Finally two issues with your list:

You have no scoring units. This means that you have only one option for winning 2/3 of your games: wiping the other player off the board. This is a playable option, especially for Blood Angels, but be aware that you should be looking at every model to determine what it should be killing, both during your list construction and during the game. Picking up some regular assault marines will help you win the objective-based games. A squad of 9-10 with a Sanguinary Priest is hard to kill.

Sanguinor is a great model with one critical flaw: he cannot join other units. This is a common mistake new players make with him, so I'm warning you ahead of time. However, surrounding him with other units should give him a cover save in addition to other benefits. That also makes whatever surrounds him a high-priority target.

[swculver]

so what's the advantages and significance of the Blood Angels having Assault squads as troop choices, Land Raiders taken as dedicated transport, Dreadnoughts as Heavy support, and Death Company Dreadnoughts as troop choices?

What are usually the limits to troop, heavy support, vehicles, elites, and HQ choices? Is it decided upon by players beforehand? or by the rulebook?

[Silver Drakes Legion]

It's 2 HQ, 6 Troops, 3 Fast, 3 Elite, and 3 Heavy.
I personally love dante not his model but his rules makes jump lists fantastic not scattering means I can destroy their big threat squad or vehicle in a hail of inferno and melta.
Assault Squads give you a bolt pistol and chainsword which means you get an extra attack in close combat for having an extra weapon. Plus they carry no heavy weapon which means their is no reason not to move them unlike Tact squads which have rapid fire weapons and heavy weapons.
A storm raven is something you will want if you have close combat squad of Termies and a dreadnought with blood talons nothing is handling that with ease other then a large group of paladins. Stormravens can move 24 inches a turn and fire a weapon due to their rule. So you're not losing much it is a lot of points but well worth it.
Dreads are fun but the furiouso beats most when they have blood talons losing a point of armor in the front the death company trades it for an attack.

[thecactusman17]

As the name suggests, assault marines are significantly better in the assault phase with extra attacks and higher mobility. That does Mott mean that they can't also do a good job shooting things if they have the right weapons. Most marines only get tactical squads so they don't pack as much punch in the assault phase. Death Company turn that up to 11 but trade it for Rage, which severely reduces the amount of control you have over them. Use your two assault vehicles to get close before doing those directly in front of an enemy unit, do that he doesn't have s chance to move s vulnerable target p out of the way.

[ElectricPaladin]

Assault marines are freaking awesome. They have slightly fewer upgrade options than Tacs, but they make up for it in several ways:

1) Assault marines can start taking special weapons at 5 men, not 10. This means that multiple small units of assault marines is a viable tactic. Small units of tac marines can't take special weapons at all.

2) Assault marines can take two of the same special weapon, making it much easier to create a "tank-hunting" squad or "infantry chewing" squad, versus tac marines, who must take different weapons.

3) All of an assault squad's upgrades are all Assault and Pistol-style weapons. This means that assault squads can always, well, assault. As opposed to tactical marines, who have Rapid Fire and Heavy options.

4) Jump packs give you unparalleled speed and mobility - and if you opt to remove the jump packs, you get a break on the price of their ride.

[Wolfshade]

I thought 5 man-assault squads lived in las/plas razorbacks...

[TheSustainableCenter]

Eww...that sounds like a crappy list of a wanna be battle force.

But the main thing with BA is FNP. So your building a pretty generic SM list and stuffing in priests to spread the FNP around.

[JBRocky]

Eww...that sounds like a crappy list of a wanna be battle force.

But the main thing with BA is FNP. So your building a pretty generic SM list and stuffing in priests to spread the FNP around.

Yup the Priests are one of the best things I like about BA. Was so glad to get them back in our new Codex.

[Loafer of Change]

Is the general consensus that it's full DoA or full mech assault? Is there no blend to be had between the two?

I ask because my brother is just beginning a BA army (he's a complete rookie, as am I). He has started with 5x DC (with Jump Packs) and 5x AM (with Jump Packs).
I think DoA is a route he wants to go down: Given that, should I make sure he steers clear of everything else so as not to waste his limited cash?

[Wolfshade]

That is an interesting question. If you try and blend the two you end up with a list that is neither DOA or fast Mech and so could be weaker than a fully Mech or a fully DOA, however if done well they can complement each other.
The groups I tend to play in people don't field lists they play armies and they tend to be a mixture of different things.

[Rahakanji]

You can use both, but it will never be a DoA List, Sure you can use a DoA-Squad in a Mech Army, i play for example a 10man Jumper squad with Lib in my Mech BA list! And in the past also Vets, but i rarely use them as deepstrikers, rather as a conter! So, albeit Jumper have a value in Mech-lists they are not good in a DoA deployment!

[Loafer of Change]

Thanks for the thoughts. I've managed to get him 15 more assault marines on the cheap, so it looks as if DoA is the only way for now.

Perhaps it's subconsciously motivated by self-interest: A few (unlikely) mishaps could be my Daemons' only hope of victory.

[Soups]

Greeting fellow Scion of Sanguinius!

Firstly, I do recommend you buying some scoring troops. Assault Squads are the defacto best troop in the codex. If you like playing Hero Hammer, look at buying Dante, as he will make you existing Sanguinary Guard scoring.

1) Your Stormraven and You

A storm raven should be treated just like a very fragile landraider. Gunship might be part of it's title, but more often than not, I find it more prudent to treat it somewhat similar to a Sadus Assault ship, or just a very very fast paper landraider. Your 2 squads of Death Company are what I use when ever I run my SR gunship. You might try making a 10-11 man DC squad, that always starts the game embarked on the SR. Having a chaplain or reclusiarch join them, so when you do release the dogs of war, you can apply a good 30 or so wounds that even terminators fear.

It does depend on who you play with, but unless you are facing someone with very few Anti-tank ranged weapons, or you can guarantee you won't have the ship be a gun magnet turn 1, it never hurts to keep it in reserve and let it storm on from reserves going flat out. Going first is always a bonus. More often than not, I find my opponents rushing at my deployment lines to get to the rest of my army, since about 1/4 of it is not on the table. So you often get the drop on them because of their mistake.

A Stormraven is also a very good transport for those "One Of" HQ choices that refuse to join other squads like a good independent character should, I.E. The Sanguinor or Mephiston. Since the Sanguinor has so few wounds, this is the one of 2 good ways to deploy him, (besides deep striking). I do find it better to DS the Sanguinor if there are multiple HQs. That way you can better choose which of your opponent's HQs you wish to smack about.

2) Thee Elite Army before Grey Knights were cool

You do seem to have bought the shiny shiny cool stuff right away. You are on the way to buying some Sanguinary priests, so you are on a good start to protecting your Guard and terminators. Always a good move. I would recommend you find yourself a librarian with a jump pack, or acquire a librarian dreadnought (prefect for that stormraven you have) and use Shield of Sanguinius. With Dark Eldar finding new and exciting ways to field AP 2, along with Grey Knights jamming as much dreadnought into a list the same way a space wolf has missiles, I find this psychic power to be worth it's weight in plastic crack. While nothing is guaranteed in the game of dice, a 5+ cover to vehicles, is better than nothing.

And behold, the 2nd best force multiplier on the codex, the Sanguinor. The walking chapter banner. I find he is better suited when you have a mostly assaulty army (so more assault troops and Veteran Vanguard, less tactical squads and scouts). Obviously he is great when you want to have a low model count army not lack the attacks you are missing if you had more dudes.

I find it best to treat a sanguinary preist like a generic HQ. Fragile, and avoid that power fist. Since they are VERY easy to pick out, I like to keep mine naked and limited to 2. 2 is the sweet spot (IMHO. Your results will vary). They being so fragile, I use them for a point sink only. Extra 5 points? Melta bomb it is! Go hunt down that vehicle.


Happy hunting.

[Iaipunk]

Let me start by saying: I am a fan of hybrid armies.

I've been playing Blood Angels since second edition, and the biggest advantage they have is mobility.
Find a way to make use of it.

This is the key to victory with BA armies...
and ultimately why some of the DoA themed armies don't perform well for newer players.
Because they drop them in, and even though it's just one turn, they are stuck.

I can't say it enough.
Keep your guys moving as much as you can.

And have fun. :D

[Kasil]

So I've never played Warhammer 40k, but I've watched a few games and decided to buy a Blood Angel army, I started out by buying two Death Company squads, The Sanguinor, Astorath the Grim, Terminator Assault Squad, Sanguinary Guard, a Crusader Land Raider, Stormraven Gunship, and a Whirlwind.

I'm looking for ideas on how to employ the troops I have so far. Also what upgrade and troop combinations might be good ideas. I might buy a chaplain and 2-3 Sanguinary Priests to intergrate into my troops. Also a maybe a Furioso dreadnoght or two, and Sternguard Veterans with combi melta and combi plasma upgrades.

Not sure if you have painted anything yet, but you can also use the death compant squads as assault marines, just with more details. Persoanlly, I don't bother with death company as I don't think they are very good right now, but I have a ton of them as assault marines.

As for where to go with your stuff, adding as little as possible, I would make a list that looks something like:
Stormraven carrying death company/assault marines or assault termies and a furioso dread
Land raider with whatever squad is not in the stormraven
then, if you want more shooting: go get some razorbacks with 5 assault marines in them and a pred or 2
if more assault: add some JP assault marines and sanguinor

No matter how you look at it though, your initial purchase has you all over the map...

[ElDuchen]

Just to throw some love at the Death Company, I have a 5-man jumppack unit that I use in 1850+ battles that work great. True, they are expensive (with obligatory fist they're 200pts) and can't score, but they do lots of damage when they hit, especially when a Chappy joins the party. People say that rage can be an issue, but with the jumppacks I have found that i can get them to a squishy target.

BTW, I run either DoA or a mix of Jumppacks and Dreads with a Stormraven.

[St.Germaine]

Have to agree with Iaipunk. I've been playing BA since their first codex (although mine are purple with gold trim - see sig ;)) and they fit my style of play perfectly. I love the DC regardless of the expense vs value issue; I always include at least a small squad, sometimes two. I've not tried the all DC list but it is tempting from a fluff point of view.

I play closer to a DoA force than a Mech list but it's still a hybrid list. Regardless of what kind of list I always have all Heavy slots filled, using a combination of Vindicators and Baals. While the vehicles are effective on their own merit, you cannot overlook the benefit of their use as fire magnets. Assault marines are more survivable if the enemy is shooting at something else.

[canoebuilder001]

What this all comes down to is that the Blood Angels are very flexible. You can run them in multiple ways. However, they are at their core an assault based army. So if the idea of sitting on your table edge and shooting the enemy as they come to you sounds like fun, do not go with the sons of Sanguinius.

I find that filling my fast attack slots with two Baal Preds and an Attack bike squad gives me a mobile fire support to pop tanks, kill troops and give my assault squads (my main troop choice) a bit of a screen to get stuck in. To aid them in getting stuck in, you have some choice:

I find that MSU Blood Angels (5 assault marines in a razorback) tend to not have enough punch to take down a full squad of Necrons, other marines, etc. However, with support from the fast attack and heavy department, they can be quite lethal.

DOA give you the advantage of showing up anywhere, but that first turn you drop in you will get hammered if you do not give your opponent something else to shoot at.

It comes down to what you own, and what you like. But either way, be ready to assault and roll some dice.

[Baeltor]

Some good points to think about here, as I too am relearning my BAs. One thing to look for when deep striking is cover, resist the urge to drop right at your target unless you want alot of fire directed at that squad instead of the rest of the army.

[Lovecraft]

The Stormraven has to be one of my favorite models in the BA. I've been running it with a Furioso in it and am considering adding some Assault Terminators to the mix. I just use it as a wrecking ball/distraction. Go flat out, firing one weapon with POTMS. If you don't get first turn, reserve it so you can get the 4+ save by going flat out onto the board. It usually draws a lot of fire, but with a 24" move, even if it gets shot down, its cargo will be much closer to enemy lines. If it lasts two turns it's done its job.

[Bootskum]

Another question then, how do people feel about Flyers in a Mechanized BA list? Stormravens pack a punch, but at the same time, they make quite a lovely target. pro's and con's to having a distraction flying around, but is it worth the points?

[Wolfshade]

I love my Stormraven, but it is a very tempting target, especially if my opponet has some dedicated anti-air.
Loaded up with Death Company in the back and a Death Company Dread dangling out the back zoom!

[pgarfunkle]

I haven't played much in 6th :( but in 5th I almost always fielded a 5 man Death Co squad with 2 power weapons and a power fist in a Rhino, and they were always very useful. Either people targeted them with most of their shooting for a few turns allowing the rest of the army to advance or they shredded their way through units.

[Martel732]

For the OP: The BA have excellent fluff, but have taken some hits in the competition department in 6th edition.

For the good:

1) FNP works vs more stuff, but is only a 5++. I still call this a net good
2) Fast vehicles: probably the single biggest advantage the BA have left (if you're thinking this is not a good sign, you're right)
3) ASM have better options than vanilla, and score
4) Fragnoughts. These guys can drop in and cause all kinds of pain.
5) Sternguard. I think we all know how these guys work.
6) Bikes and attack bikes got a lot better for us with the FNP rules and jink. Blood rodeo anyone?

For the meh:

1) Stormravens. Necessary evil with things like FMCs and Helldrakes running around. Unfortunately, Vendettas make these things look stupid and they are useless as transports. I'd rather have the stormtalon at this point.
2) Cheap devastators. THat can't take autocannons. The big debate is how to equip these guys. Missiles launchers are cheap, but suck horribly in 6th.

For the bad: Crunch time

1) Furious charge now sucks. It just does. Well, for us. The Orks are still quite happy. But without access to init 5, the BA lose many fights they used to win, and the fights they still win they'll suffer more casualties. Remember that FNP got worse vis a vis getting punched in the face. This makes our ASM considerably less potent.
2) Non-assault transports got gimped. So now we can't assault out of rhinos or razors even it is doesn't move. OUCH
3) BA HQs got gimped. Dante is init 1, Mephiston AP 3. In general, BA HQs are a disaster. The only bright spot are divination monkey libbies and maybe Tycho.
4) DC are overpriced and easily countered. Shoot them, or spoiling assault them. Or do both. They also suffer from awkward deployment options: overprice jump packs, expensive land raider, assault-delaying drop pod.
5) Trap units like vanguard or sanguinary guard. These guys are expensive, but still only T4 W1. The kill our model count, and die all the same. In fact, I argue the codex should be renamed Codex: Trap Units
6) Tactical marines got better, ASM got worse in general. Apart from the furious charge castration, assault got gimped in general in 6th. Double ouch for us. We can take tac marines, but with no combat tactics.
7) Dreads with blood talons. People like these things, but I just laugh at them. Again, deployment is the problem. They can't assault out of drop pods, and the Stormraven is not a valid option for a TAC list. Being busted down to AP 3 hurts a lot too, imo.

Basically, I view the BA as an assault army that just isn't good at assault anymore. I've run into init 5 CSM, Tyranids, Chaos Demons and the dreaded Space Wolves. All these armies are major problems for us now in HTH. So I've rebuilt my lists to shoot more. But, in general, we field fewer models than vanilla marines and so we don't quite have their throw weight of fire.

The more I play, it becomes clear that when against a pool of players that are reasonably knowledgeable of how 6th edition runs, the BA are one of the worst armies in the game. Now being bad in 40K is a lot like being bad in baseball. You're going to still win a lot of games, but not nearly as many as the Necrons, GK, or IG.

[The Dinosaur]

Dreads with blood talons are so much fun! Throw one in a storm raven with some tricked out vanguard veterans and watch everyone run away :)