Too much of a good thing?

[Levitas]

Looking at the WD spine pic of a Dark Angel and hearing rumors of a Chaos Legion dex is all good. But are we just getting a lil too much power armor?

I dont play any other games, but do they have one army type dominating the spot light like marines do in 40k?

I'm a marine fan, I have 7ks worth in 2 flavors after all. I just get bored with the saturation, and needless types of essentially the same thing. Give us 1 dex that is super flexible and let us create our own. I dont believe for one minute they have exhausted the potential for new alien races and factions. I'm thinking 3 imperial codices max, Codex : Marines, Codex: Inquisition, Codex Mechanicum.

Imagine if Nids had a codex for every Hive Fleet, Eldar for every Craftworld, Chaos for every power. Sounds silly but thats essentially the situation with marines right now.

You think GW should retain the separate marine dexes or combine them and expand into new races and projects? Do they take or too much resource? happy to see two sets of power armor in the 6th ed box?

[Wildeybeast]

There may be a case to say that marines get too much coverage, but reducing that won't lead to any new races. GW struggles to update all the current codexes within the life cycle of an edition as it is, so new races are a no go. They also have the issue of coming up with a race that has differenet playstyle and character from those that already exist.

I think that whilst they could cover-all marine dex with rules for variant chapter, it would get a bit unwieldy, like the old fantasy chaso army book that had daemons, warriors and beastmen in it. And it won't happen now that SW and BA have their own fully fleshed out armies and units. The only way to get them all into one book would either be to lose some of the units or essentially have one massive book which features everything from codex SM, SW, BA, BT & DA. Neither of those is a viable option.

[wittdooley]

Like Wildey, I think there is just far too much in existence with the Marines to even make this a feasible solution. Before the updates to the Wolves and Blood Angels? Maybe. But not now. Especially with point value adjustments, etc, due to army specific special rules, etc.

And Quite Frankly, I'd be okay with more than one Chaos book. THe Chaos Marines book needs to be a hefty book that is built in such a way that you can effectively make 5 very unique playstyles from it, one for each got and one for Undivided.

So... I guess... no. There's isn't too much of a good thing for me when it comes to Power Armour.

[gendoikari87]

yeah it's a freaking travesty that there's what, three specialist marine codex's when there is NO mechanicus codex.

I think we need:

Codex: Inquisition (with both grey knights and Sisters)
Codex: Imperial guard
Codex: Space marines
Codex: Mechanicus

[Levitas]

They could do one big book, it would be bigger and pricy but would free up the schedule in the long run. FW could do upgrade kits. The marine shell is always the same, bolter, chainsword, rhino and power armor. With a few sprinkles and cherries on top. A White Scars codex, now that would actually be somewhat different. Angels, Wolves, Templars, Dark Angels have essentially the same core gear. Grey Hunters are tac marines with a few extra weapon options and rules. They ride in rhinos and fire bolters.

If they insist on dexes for chapters then why not do all the first founding including the traitor legions? What we have now is a cash cow they dress up in beards, tails, crosses, skirts & nippled suits then wheel it out as 'new'. But marines sell, and its easy to sculpt extra bits for existing kits.

[wittdooley]

The white scars area codex chapter though. They simply use lots of bikes.

[DarkLink]

Codex: Inquisition (with both grey knights and Sisters)

Or, y'know, a Grey Knight and a Sisters codex, since they don't normally operate together and the Inquisition is not the primary focus of either codex. Grey Knight, Imperial Guard and Sisters do the warfighting for the inquisition, not the other way around.




But a Codex: (all) Space Marines would really be pretty easy to do.

[eldargal]

I'm utterly opposed to any thought of combining GK and SoB, it was bad enough they clumsily combined the Inquisition with SoB last time. There is really no fluff justification and certainly no gameplay justifiction (the playstyles are completely different). Come to think of it, was the Convocation of Nephilim which had the SoB operating as the OH chamber militant even mentioned in the last WD codex?

As to Marines, as I've mentioned before I used to favour slapping them all in one codex, but I think rather than upset all the BA and SW fans it might be better if GW just had a 'Codex: SM' for codex chapters, kept the A and SW books, and then had another book for second (or is it first?) founding chapters or something, with DA, BT and Imperial Fists and whatnot.

[doom-kitten]

I'm utterly opposed to any thought of combining GK and SoB, it was bad enough they clumsily combined the Inquisition with SoB last time. There is really no fluff justification and certainly no gameplay justifiction (the playstyles are completely different). Come to think of it, was the Convocation of Nephilim which had the SoB operating as the OH chamber militant even mentioned in the last WD codex?

As to Marines, as I've mentioned before I used to favour slapping them all in one codex, but I think rather than upset all the BA and SW fans it might be better if GW just had a 'Codex: SM' for codex chapters, kept the A and SW books, and then had another book for second (or is it first?) founding chapters or something, with DA, BT and Imperial Fists and whatnot.

Yes the Convocation is mention and theres a good deal of fluff regarding why the Sororitas operated alongside the Inquistion in particularly the Ordo Hereticus, in fact one piece indicates that a number of High Ranking Sororitas have actually fully joined the Inquistion (it is rare however). In my opinion the Sororitas and the Inquistion should not be seperated but toned down the focus should be Sororitas with Inquistion support not vice versa.

A single book containing marines would be far to big and I shudder to imagine the price, whinig about too many marines codices sounds silly to me because why not? Their the bread and honey and the whole 40k story is essentially the story of the Space marines with supporting characters, I'm of the opinion all founding chapters should have a dedicated army list including Chaos Space Marines. Seperating the books is also a smart move as it brings in more money for whats basically the same army reprinted, it's a smart business strategy and my hats off to GW for doing it after all the games a luxury.

Sorry to Eldargirl, not trying to nit pick or anything but the 3rd Ed codex does feature supporting fluff but it's mostly given the mysterious and secretive flavour. I didn't much like the amount of attention the Inquistion was given over the sisters and never once fielded the useless inquistitors.

[DarkLink]

A single book containing marines would be far to big

That's what I thought. Then I actually wrote one, mostly just copy/pasting existing units and making up as little as possible. I posted a summary in the 'slow news month' thread. Not counting Special Characters, the list is 14 pages long and you can closely replicate any currently existing SM list, including Space Wolves and Blood Angels. I believe the vanilla SM armylist is also 14 pages.

Of course, you'd have to pick and choose what fluff you include, but I've never felt that codices should be the place for more than basic fluff so I don't see it as a problem. And you would have a lot of Special Characters, but the point is you can fit it all into one book.

[doom-kitten]

That's what I thought. Then I actually wrote one, mostly just copy/pasting existing units and making up as little as possible. I posted a summary in the 'slow news month' thread. Not counting Special Characters, the list is 14 pages long and you can closely replicate any currently existing SM list, including Space Wolves and Blood Angels. I believe the vanilla SM armylist is also 14 pages.

Of course, you'd have to pick and choose what fluff you include, but I've never felt that codices should be the place for more than basic fluff so I don't see it as a problem. And you would have a lot of Special Characters, but the point is you can fit it all into one book.

I apologize but I hugely disagree with you, first off a 14 page army list does not also include, army rules, army fluff (each chapter represented), unit details and summaries, SC summaries ( these guys alone would eat up 30 pages I'm not sure how many SC are divided among the marine codices but I'm thinking close to 30) not only that but [I]closely replicate[I], is not good enough not with the amount of candy the marines have. You'd need your wargear and keep in mind certain chapters have access to differing wargear such as Blood Talons and Wolf Claws (I might have gotten those wrong). If the codex was written in the standard GW template it wuld be massive likely rivaling the core rule book, and no one wants to carry something like that around with them.

Also we gamers have come to veiw these armies as seperate entities, no dedicated space wolf player would be happy being told he had to buy a massive codex loaded with info that has nothing to do with his army except one small part. In addition to having to cart around this codex (he could of course copy the parts partaining to his army), he has to pull army list hijicks just to have a Space Wolf army.

Make a list of all the Space Wolf units, do the same for Blood Angels and Dark Angels, Black Templars etc. Circle all the unqiue units that are not repeated in each book and tell me theres not alot of cirlces, you need to include these unqiue units as well as stardard marines units. Go ahead tell a space wolf he can't have Thunderwolf calvary any more because they eat up to much codex space, put all the unique rules in not just a selection of those you feel are interchangeable and tell me that it would not be a hard job. So sadly I highly doubt the army list can be 14 pages, as it would have to include army specific upgrades and unit choices.Not to mention the sheer number of IC's, SC, Standard Marine units and those unique to each chapter, I'd also like to point out the current marine codex has a 15 pg army list.

[eldargal]

Well I'm fine with them being the chamber militant of the Ordo Hereticus still (as I saiud I wasn't sure if it was mentioned in the WD book), but I don't consider this voluntary arrangement warranting their inclusiong with the GKs. Unlike the SoB the GK are part of the Inquisition, the SoB just agree to act on their behalf. I don't consider the Convocation justification for including more than an Inquisitor in a SoB list let alone having them in the same book as Grey Knights.:)

Yes the Convocation is mention and theres a good deal of fluff regarding why the Sororitas operated alongside the Inquistion in particularly the Ordo Hereticus, in fact one piece indicates that a number of High Ranking Sororitas have actually fully joined the Inquistion (it is rare however). In my opinion the Sororitas and the Inquistion should not be seperated but toned down the focus should be Sororitas with Inquistion support not vice versa.

A single book containing marines would be far to big and I shudder to imagine the price, whinig about too many marines codices sounds silly to me because why not? Their the bread and honey and the whole 40k story is essentially the story of the Space marines with supporting characters, I'm of the opinion all founding chapters should have a dedicated army list including Chaos Space Marines. Seperating the books is also a smart move as it brings in more money for whats basically the same army reprinted, it's a smart business strategy and my hats off to GW for doing it after all the games a luxury.

Sorry to Eldargirl, not trying to nit pick or anything but the 3rd Ed codex does feature supporting fluff but it's mostly given the mysterious and secretive flavour. I didn't much like the amount of attention the Inquistion was given over the sisters and never once fielded the useless inquistitors.

[Wildeybeast]

They could do one big book, it would be bigger and pricy but would free up the schedule in the long run.

Firstly, I don't think it will free up the schedule that much as it will take longer to make (meaning that the team making it aren't doing anything else) and then you are going to have far more model waves than with a standard codex.
Secondly, the only justification is that combining them all will allow more focus on other armies and please marine haters. There are several reasons against doing it. As I have already pointed out, this won't lead to a new race/army as they would still struggle to get all the others done within the lifespan of an edition (they still need to do Tau, Orks, Eldar, BT, DA, Daemons, CSM and a proper SoB codex for 5th ed with 6th ed rumoured to be hitting in a few months). Then you also have the issue that it will annoy far more people than it will please (marine fans are pretty vocal and the biggest customer base). And there is the issue that GW will lose money on one combined book/army compared to several different books, not to mention that less people will buy the BA/SW kits. So, for those reasons, I really don't see this ever happening.

[Levitas]

Ha ha, i love how possessive people get over their respective dexes. As we all know the game and its books are just to sell plastic soldiers, and marines do that very well. I remember when the chapters were just a few colored pages in Rogue Trader. Its easy to forget that yes, once they were all in one book anyways. Then we got Angels of Death and the deed was done.

While marines may be telling the 'story', every story needs a good villain too. Its not uncommon for my gaming store to be fielding all marine players on a gaming night, filling 5 tables. Marine on marine action. Everyones having fun so who cares, but it just amuses me. The fluff or 'story' points to humanity being a desperate situation...really? Well, my lil section of the galaxy looks pretty secure. Covered by 3-4 grey knight players, 3-4 wolf players, 4 Blood Angel players, 2 Dark Angel players, 3 Ultra players, oh and me 1 Raven Guard. The chapters got so bored with all the dead xenos that we have a mini heresy every wed night and practice rolling 4s.

[DarkLink]

...first off a 14 page army list does not also include, army rules, army fluff (each chapter represented), unit details and summaries, SC summaries

Ok, challenge accepted. The army list is 14 pages. I did, in fact, include unique wargear like blood talons and magna grapples. There's not as much of it as you think. 99% of it is different in name only. There are 29 sm characters, so yes, there's an extra 18 pages over the vanilla codex. Special rules fit in about 3 pages, again they aren't as different as you think. Two of those pages are dedicated to lining out each chapter's Chapter Tactics rules and FOC swaps. Then there are a few unique units like Twolfves and death company. But again, there are fewer truely unique units than you think.

So in terms of pure rules, we're adding about 30 pages, assuming we stick to the one page per unit thing. Most of those are special characters.

As for the fluff, go read the black library. The vanilla codex covers the basic fluff for a dozen chapters, and it does it while pausing every other page to worship the ultramarines. As long as sm players could get over their ego, you could cover all the chapters without going too crazy. And the unique units cover a lot of stuff already, so they'll pull double duty.

So I call bull**** on the idea that it would be too big of a book. The only reason sm players have as much as you do is because sm players are massively spoiled compared to everyone else. Don't complain to me when you can assemble one army and play it with five different codices.



not only that but [I]closely replicate[I], is not good enough not with the amount of candy the marines have. You'd need your wargear and keep in mind certain chapters have access to differing wargear such as Blood Talons and Wolf Claws (I might have gotten those wrong).

Again, not nearly as much unique stuff as you seem to think. Most of it is different in name only.

Also, when I say closely replicate, I mean that you could write virtually any current list and "translate" it over and get the exact same units and wargear and everything. The points might be slightly different as I took the liberty of buffing some of the crappy units and nerfing a few op ones, but the actual wargear and rules and everything is almost identical. I do still have some cleaning up to do, but 99% of the stuff is there. Well, maybe like 98%.



Also we gamers have come to veiw these armies as seperate entities, no dedicated space wolf player would be happy being told he had to buy a massive codex loaded with info that has nothing to do with his army except one small part.

Crybabies. You're not going to get any sympathy from me here. I bet eldar players wished they had a codex for every craftworld. And maybe they could have a Codex Craftworlds if there werent so many sm codices. How about the chaos legions? Believe it or not, there are other armies in this game that would like some attention once and a while.

In fact, I think if they can nail a setup like what I'm talking about with SMs, then they could figure out how to cover the traitor legions, craftworlds, hive fleets and the like pretty well. That would be a massive improvement to the game.



he has to pull army list hijicks just to have a Space Wolf army.

No, he literally says "I'm playing space wolves" and that automatically grants him thunderwolves and bars him from Baal predators. No need for hijinks.

You pick your chapter, and that grants you your Chapter Tactics rules and locks/unlocks all those unique units and special characters. Easy.



Make a list of all the Space Wolf units, do the same for Blood Angels and Dark Angels, Black Templars etc. Circle all the unqiue units that are not repeated in each book and tell me theres not alot of cirlces, you need to include these unqiue units as well as stardard marines units. Go ahead tell a space wolf he can't have Thunderwolf calvary any more because they eat up to much codex space, put all the unique rules in not just a selection of those you feel are interchangeable and tell me that it would not be a hard job.

Well, I did exactly that. Thunderwolves are still in, though. Same with all the unique units. When I said you could replicate everything I meant it. There isnt a currently existing unit that doesnt have an equivalent.

I did cheat a little, though, kinda. For example, I pared down all the Land Raiders into one entry. Instead of taking a full page, it takes a third of one, all because they sloppily list the armor values and unit options three times while I do it once. I fit dreadnoughts into one half page entry.

Is that a change from gw formatting? Yeah, a bit. But you retain all the same options, and it's much neater and compact. That's a good thing.

Probably the biggest contention out of the whole codex people might have is the veteran unit. I consolidates all the veteran units other than terminators into one unit. Honor guard, sternguard, vanguard, sanguinary guard, you can build them all and more. The unit can take essentially any combination of wargear. I still need to play around with some of the options, but I'm pretty proud of how flexible the unit is.




I'd also like to point out the current marine codex has a 15 pg army list.

Oh, my bad. My 14 doesn't include the HQ special characters. You can fit about 5 a page, so add in 4-5 more pages. So my 19 to their 15? Not bad at all.

[doom-kitten]

Your thinking adding roughly 30-40 more pages to a book thats already 144 pages is not a big codex? Wow...what exactly do you qualify as a big codex? 200 pages? 300? Or maybe your in to the 2-3 part novels, I wasn't trying to be rude with that post but apparently I was, sorry I just don't think this is a easy sauce as you've convinced yourself it is. Sorry as well to Eldargirl I would rather they didn't mix the Knights and Sister either, as it would make no sense at all and dedicated codices are by far better. And so what if they make seperate Legion codices, means more money for GW and more armies to play and fight same with Eldar or even Orks, go nuts it won't change the status quo of the Marines.

I don't yet have marines, but to be honest a pure Raven Guard book would be awesome and I'd pay for it, why not? What exactly is so wrong with having individualised marine codices?

[gendoikari87]

Give me my mechanicus codex, or cut blood angels. Cause that **** just ain't fair.

[Levitas]

Wow, Darklink, just wow. Very well said, very well indeed. You hit so many nails on the head your hammer must be master crafted.

Marine players have it very good (again, I stress I play marines along side DE). They are spoilt as GW sells a crap ton of marines and feeds the machine. For players not into marines the options are not as grand. As Darklink proved, with some intelligent thinking one marine book to rule them all can be done.

It would be nice for other races to have the same level of individuality. Codex: Eldar Exodites anyone? WIth all due respect to the chapters that do have their own codex, they are just not that different. Again brilliantly illustrated by Darklink.

Marines are cool. But imagine if you went for a soda and they had seven varieties of coke and then one option of sprite. Then the next time you go in you see a big sign advertising a new flavor of coke.

[wittdooley]

Cut the Blood Angels? Just go read the Black Library if you want any fluff. Facepalm. Are you two for real?

There are far more than 15 marine codex special characters, all of whom warrant their own codex page.

Link. You just sound like an angry 16 year-old.

Just from the Space Wolves Dex, here are the unique units

Blood Claws
Thunder Wolves
Wolf Guard
Fenrisian Wolves
Wolf Scouts (Yep, they have specific special rules)
Long Fangs (Yep, they have specific special rules)
Lone Wolves
Wolf Priests (Yep, they have specific special rules)
Rune Priest (Yep, they have specific special rules AND different Psychic powers)
As well as 8 Special Characters

And then, the Space Wolves have their own unique army rules.

And then you have the unique point costing of units and weapons to reflect those army rules.

So, your propose that 19 pages will get you that kind of mileage for 3 additional armies? In what universe?

The problem with your organization is that the book would become even more convoluted than they already are.

"Wait, so here's my base cost for a tactical squad. Imma turn to page 145 to figure out how they change if they're a Space Wolves Grey Hunters squad. Okay... so they're no longer 16 points, they're 15. Cool. Is all the wargear the same? Shoot, looks like it isn't. I guess these guys can take a banner too, and mark of the wulfen..." etc, etc, etc.

If the majority of people would buy individual Craftworld books they'd make em. If eldar were the most popular race, we wouldn't be playing Space Marine, we'd be playing Aspect Warrior. It is what it is.

Just don't get so angry about it.

EDIT:
I know this is going to be lost on some of you, but this is just like the whole argument about paying Division 1 revenue earning college athletes. This, for the most part, means men's football and men's basketball. Why do they deserve to get paid, and not women's lacrosse or men's wrestling? Because they make the money that supports the other sports. The Space Marines bring in the money that supports the other lines, not just through the minis, but from the books, and the video games. You feed the bull that brings in your money.

And only if that allows you to have a women's handball team, so be it.

[Levitas]

Honestly, my point is balance. A pipe dream for sure, and GW is a business. I have no issue with each chapter having their own dex, but it would be nice if GW would show the same level to other areas of the universe. resources and sales figures dictate they cant and wont.

I have 2ks worth of wolves, but honestly this is how I view the units.

What makes them unique on the table is counter attack, bolt pistol, chainsword and long fang split fire. Tac marines with beards pretty much. Heck I bought a box of tac marines to use as hunters.

Blood Claws ( pack less assault marines with scout type stats)
Thunder Wolves (unique and cool)
Wolf Guard (Veterans, vanguard meets sternguard)
Fenrisian Wolves (unique and cool)
Wolf Scouts (Yep, they have specific special rules) (Scouts that have a jazzed up reserve)
Long Fangs (Yep, they have specific special rules) ( jazzed up dev marines)
Lone Wolves ( Unique and somewhat cool)
Wolf Priests (Yep, they have specific special rules) (chaplain) He doesnt even have any medic skills to show the fluff!
Rune Priest (Yep, they have specific special rules AND different Psychic powers) (librarian)
As well as 8 Special Characters

Theres a lot of filler. Read the rhino entry fluff in the wolf dex. Filler! Even their background is butchered norse stuff. But I still love them, they just dont warrant their own dex in my humble opinion.

[wittdooley]

Honestly, my point is balance. A pipe dream for sure, and GW is a business. I have no issue with each chapter having their own dex, but it would be nice if GW would show the same level to other areas of the universe. resources and sales figures dictate they cant and wont.

I have 2ks worth of wolves, but honestly this is how I view the units.

What makes them unique on the table is counter attack, bolt pistol, chainsword and long fang split fire. Tac marines with beards pretty much. Heck I bought a box of tac marines to use as hunters.

Blood Claws ( pack less assault marines with scout type stats)

Diff Stats and two unique special rules

Thunder Wolves (unique and cool) Agree
Wolf Guard (Veterans, vanguard meets sternguard)

Except you can break them into unit leaders. Big difference. No one runs a wolf guard pack

Fenrisian Wolves (unique and cool) Agree

Wolf Scouts (Yep, they have specific special rules) (Scouts that have a jazzed up reserve) Agree

Long Fangs (Yep, they have specific special rules) ( jazzed up dev marines) Agree

Lone Wolves ( Unique and somewhat cool)

Wolf Priests (Yep, they have specific special rules) (chaplain) He doesnt even have any medic skills to show the fluff! Fair enough, but still very different.

Rune Priest (Yep, they have specific special rules AND different Psychic powers) (librarian)

As well as 8 Special Characters

Theres a lot of filler. Read the rhino entry fluff in the wolf dex. Filler! Even their background is butchered norse stuff. But I still love them, they just dont warrant their own dex in my humble opinion.

I think, if any of the minor dexes warrant a different Dex, it IS the wolves. Sagas. Cavalry beasts. Mark of the wulfen. Vets that lead less experience packs, etc.

In order to balance a marine codex with everything included, it would be an enormous, convoluted mess with a 25 page FAQ.

[Levitas]

"an enormous, convoluted mess with a 25 page FAQ" .Sounds like just the thing GW would do! :p Matt Ward could write, it would be the stuff of legend. And we would still buy it.

I agree, wolves are the most distinct. No argument there. But maybe the chapters could have been handled in IA books and get FW love. Maybe, just thinking out loud. You could argue that Eldar exodites are just as different to Craftworld Eldar, and the Mechanicum are very different. But no dex. People just love marines and cant get enough, with good reasons too.

[gendoikari87]

Cut the Blood Angels? Just go read the Black Library if you want any fluff. Facepalm. Are you two for real?

There are far more than 15 marine codex special characters, all of whom warrant their own codex page.

Link. You just sound like an angry 16 year-old.

Just from the Space Wolves Dex, here are the unique unitsEasily 30 unique entries for the mechanicus, even leaving out the warrior techpriests so your few "unique entries" is not a good argument.

Blood ClawsStill marines in power armor
Thunder WolvesOne of two unique things about them
Wolf GuardVeterans with wolf pelts
Fenrisian WolvesSecond only unique thing about them
Wolf Scouts (Yep, they have specific special rules)still scouts
Long Fangs (Yep, they have specific special rules)still really just devestators
Lone Wolvesstill just marines in power armor/terminator armor
Wolf Priests (Yep, they have specific special rules)Seriously?
Rune Priest (Yep, they have specific special rules AND different Psychic powers)Seriously?
As well as 8 Special CharactersBoo freaking hoo, I can name off twelve techpriests that deserve their own rules, and that's not counting skitarii generals/commanders

And then, the Space Wolves have their own unique army rules.And the mechanicus wouldn't?

And then you have the unique point costing of units and weapons to reflect those army rules.So you're having to justify an army by costing the same unit with minor variations differently... you basically just said yourself they were the same dang thing...

So, your propose that 19 pages will get you that kind of mileage for 3 additional armies? In what universe?

The problem with your organization is that the book would become even more convoluted than they already are.

"Wait, so here's my base cost for a tactical squad. Imma turn to page 145 to figure out how they change if they're a Space Wolves Grey Hunters squad. Okay... so they're no longer 16 points, they're 15. Cool. Is all the wargear the same? Shoot, looks like it isn't. I guess these guys can take a banner too, and mark of the wulfen..." etc, etc, etc. Honestly, I don't even care if they're in there in name in the book because you can paint them as one chapter or another, and they're all the same models. The only difference is the paint, when you put them on the table top.

If the majority of people would buy individual Craftworld books they'd make em. If eldar were the most popular race, we wouldn't be playing Space Marine, we'd be playing Aspect Warrior. It is what it is.

Just don't get so angry about it.

EDIT:
I know this is going to be lost on some of you, but this is just like the whole argument about paying Division 1 revenue earning college athletes. This, for the most part, means men's football and men's basketball. Why do they deserve to get paid, and not women's lacrosse or men's wrestling? Because they make the money that supports the other sports. The Space Marines bring in the money that supports the other lines, not just through the minis, but from the books, and the video games. You feed the bull that brings in your money. This, it is the only argument you make that makes sense here. Man up and just say this first. it's money grubbing, it's in NO way fair, but that's what is done.

And only if that allows you to have a women's handball team, so be it.

Blood angels= 1000 genetically augmented space marines, the loss of which would be hard but the imperium would live. Are space marines, nothing more.
Mechanicus= Countless billions without whom the imperium falters and dies. are half man half machine.

Now you really want to tell me the blood angels, the space wolves, the dark angels, the black templars all deserve representation in the game more than the mechanicus?

[wittdooley]

Blood angels= 1000 genetically augmented space marines, the loss of which would be hard but the imperium would live. Are space marines, nothing more.
Mechanicus= Countless billions without whom the imperium falters and dies. are half man half machine.

Now you really want to tell me the blood angels, the space wolves, the dark angels, the black templars all deserve representation in the game more than the mechanicus?

Because I said that, right? Unless craft worlds are suddenly in the domain of the mechanicus, I didn't.

Do you actually play 40k? Space wolf lists play differently than blood angels which play differently from vanilla marines. They're even more different if you play them with some sense of fluff as intended instead of power spamming.

I'm very aware of what the mechanicus is. I'd buy models and a dex If they released it. But 30 tech priests that you can name that would be characters?? I read a lot of the BL, but you must read far more than I do if you can name 30 deserving tech priests.

And besides. If you want to run a mechanicu list, just do a counts as necrons. With the new rules they're perfect for that.

@Levitas- a lot of these smaller lists like craftworlds or exodites get lists in FW. But GW can't plan for that to be th main area. Not everyone has easy access to those models or those rules.

[DarkLink]

No, you're absolutely right that it would be a big book. It wouldn't be brb big, but 200 pages is not small. I'm pretty sure it is fiesable to fit that in a softcover, though, and that wouldn't be so huge as to be cumbersome.

I also think it would be reasonable to have a core codex: Space Marines, and a second Chapters codex with the extra fluff and rules. Two, one hundred page books could fit in all the core units, plus have highly unique variant lists for a dozen different Chapters.

In fact, that would be a net gain for SM players, while opening up three or four release spots for non Marines. Everyone wins.





I think the mechanicus is like the inquisition, it doesn't directly belong in regular 40k. Aside from superheavies, like the titan legions, they are basically support units. The IG does the bulk of the fighting.

Though I would think you could fit some stuff for them into the IG codex.

[gendoikari87]

And besides. If you want to run a mechanicu list, just do a counts as necrons. With the new rules they're perfect for that. Sure and if you want to run a blood angels list just run space marines with lots of assault squads. At least they're still marines. the differences between mechanicus any anything, is vastly more different than your blood angels are from space marines. Hell you even are comparing them to something directly. That's you speaking, not me. I have nothing to compare the mechanicus to, especially the warrior techpriest cults.

[gendoikari87]

No, you're absolutely right that it would be a big book. It wouldn't be brb big, but 200 pages is not small. I'm pretty sure it is fiesable to fit that in a softcover, though, and that wouldn't be so huge as to be cumbersome.

I also think it would be reasonable to have a core codex: Space Marines, and a second Chapters codex with the extra fluff and rules. Two, one hundred page books could fit in all the core units, plus have highly unique variant lists for a dozen different Chapters.

In fact, that would be a net gain for SM players, while opening up three or four release spots for non Marines. Everyone wins.

This, this is the way to go.

[wittdooley]

No, you're absolutely right that it would be a big book. It wouldn't be brb big, but 200 pages is not small. I'm pretty sure it is fiesable to fit that in a softcover, though, and that wouldn't be so huge as to be cumbersome.

I also think it would be reasonable to have a core codex: Space Marines, and a second Chapters codex with the extra fluff and rules. Two, one hundred page books could fit in all the core units, plus have highly unique variant lists for a dozen different Chapters.



Now that I could get behind. An Index Astartes book and a divergent chapters book would be fine with me.

[gendoikari87]

Now that I could get behind. An Index Astartes book and a divergent chapters book would be fine with me.

That would work too.

[doom-kitten]

[QUOTE=DarkLink;175531]No, you're absolutely right that it would be a big book. It wouldn't be brb big, but 200 pages is not small. I'm pretty sure it is fiesable to fit that in a softcover, though, and that wouldn't be so huge as to be cumbersome.

I also think it would be reasonable to have a core codex: Space Marines, and a second Chapters codex with the extra fluff and rules. Two, one hundred page books could fit in all the core units, plus have highly unique variant lists for a dozen different Chapters.

In fact, that would be a net gain for SM players, while opening up three or four release spots for non Marines. Everyone wins. [QUOTE]

The two books is a compromise and I'll settle there, however it might start feeling like DND with your Players handbook and your Equipment book but whatever I'm tired and not that interested anymore. Sorry I didn't mean to be a prick.

[Deadlift]

I am sorry but I disagree with a combined codex.
Although Darklink and some others have some very compelling arguments which make lots of sense I just don't want to see any kind of combined codex for all the chapters. If we start going down that road (which GW just wont do based on the sales alone) then what next.
I like the fact that some of the chapters have some uniqueness about them and that means the models too. would we see less chapter specific models ? No Death Company, No Raven Wing, No Wolfguard, No Space wolves pack, No Sanguinary guard, No Furioso Dread, No Sword Brethren, I could go on as all these models "could" be made and painted from the standard marine models available but the paint job would be the only unique feature. Thats what we used to have and personally I like seeing different models for chapters and not just paint jobs.
I don't like the idea of Forge World only upgrade packs for specific chapters, why ?, because FW stuff is generally too expensive for the average person to buy enough kits to make your sm army different. Why shouldn't someone be able to walk into a GW store and buy the models they need to start a chapter specific army. I don't know about you but when I buy models I don't always then want to go home and then order more stuff from FW and wait for delivery before I can start building. So for me FW being responsible for the chapter specific stuff solely just wouldn't work.
If GW were to combine all SM codices and release chapter specific models too then I can see release day being a complete mess. So many armies without models to begin with and lots of moaning (justifiable so ?). I know lots of xenos races are without models as it stands but the Space Marines in all their guises are the poster boy of 40k. Thats fact and they sell.
I know my thoughts all stem from the fact I am a big Space Marine fan in all their guises and I like seeing each new chapter release and the models they bring. GW like it that way too, the drip drip drip effect an individual codex releases brings in to them in constant sales is another reason we just wont see one or maybe two combined codices for all SM. Blimy WD would be a bit boring too.
What is interesting is although this thread is about combining SM together in one or two books, Chaos Marine players already have that and most I know would love to have some Legion specific codeci to the extent the Emperors finest do.
Oh and my final reason is I dont want anyone f**king with my GK codex, and lumping them into this flavourless hodgepoge of an idea :D

[DarkLink]

I don't see how you could fit a GK codex in. Unlike even Space Wolves, GKs share virtually nothing in common with any standard Marine units aside from Power Armor and S/T 4. GKSS are almost feasible to fit in, except not really, but Paladins? The difference between Grey Hunters and tactical Marines are their Chapter Tactics and one or two pieces of wargear. GKSS have to be priced differently, have all their wargear replaced, gain a bunch of psychic powers and stuff, have completely different upgrade uptions, etc. Fitting them in would be a nightmare. Space Wolves are tricky enough.

I also think it would be nice if GW could produce another ten new codices for all sorts of different armies so you could play just about anything you could ever want, but it's not practical to do so.

I just believe that, overall, it would be better for the game to provide more attention to xenos codices, and that requires dropping a few SM codices to free GW's schedule up. Maybe not better for GW's profits, but this is all hypothetical anyways.

And GW would just keep releasing models like they do now. It's not like they don't already have stuff for each SM codex.

[gendoikari87]

I also think it would be nice if GW could produce another ten new codices for all sorts of different armies so you could play just about anything you could ever want, but it's not practical to do so.Now? No. However if GW embraces the future of 3d printers as they get cheap enough to afford, you could start to see CD's or Downloads of the source material for printing. They'd be way expensive, a tactical marine CD/download would probably be in the $100-$150 range but you could print off as many as you wanted. This would only be legal for you to do so however, just like with music.

That alone frees up their revenue and resources by having the customer themselves do the manufacturing. So with that alone they could bring out a lot more new codexes.

Now on the other hand if they DON'T do this, they're asking for trouble, because people can and will scan the models, and illegally produce their own. So they will have to accept this or start loosing business when the technology becomes available.

[doom-kitten]

Now? No. However if GW embraces the future of 3d printers as they get cheap enough to afford, you could start to see CD's or Downloads of the source material for printing. They'd be way expensive, a tactical marine CD/download would probably be in the $100-$150 range but you could print off as many as you wanted. This would only be legal for you to do so however, just like with music.

That alone frees up their revenue and resources by having the customer themselves do the manufacturing. So with that alone they could bring out a lot more new codexes.

Now on the other hand if they DON'T do this, they're asking for trouble, because people can and will scan the models, and illegally produce their own. So they will have to accept this or start loosing business when the technology becomes available.

They will never do this, ever, no miniatures company or gaming company ever will they'll just crack down harder and make millions through lawsuit. Why would they make a 150 dollar CD for a 3D Scanner/Printer, they would go bankrupt in months, it would be so easy to buy one CD or borrow from a friend and you get hundreds of marines for the price of powered resin. They aren't asking for trouble by not doing this, they're being smart and actually making money not losing it, and if people are stupid enough to pirate the models they deserve the lawsuit. Also your crazy if you think the printers will ever be cheap and easy to afford, they can be used for tons of stuff and other company's will complain and sorry you do not have more power of say then the money makers.

As for focusing on Xeno's races, to be fair I'd like to see some more aliens mostly because I'm getting tired of killing the same ones over again, theres a few in the fluff that can be justifiably created and a Kroot codex would be intriguing. The problem is each codex is supposed to play and feel different and theres only so many ways you can tinker rules to create differing playstyles without going into niches filled by other armies.

[DarkLink]

Aside from the copyright issues that 3d printing will bring up, 3d printing doesn't fundamentally solve the issue of time management. GW isn't that big of a company really, they only have so many people who can work on designing and sculpting models and writing codices.

Their current production team is inadequate to support 16 codices, and with 3d printing coming up GW isn't likely to be able to pull the resources to to support more than that out of thin air. Not that the current codex pileup is necessarily actually bad for GW's business.

[wittdooley]

Now? No. However if GW embraces the future of 3d printers as they get cheap enough to afford, you could start to see CD's or Downloads of the source material for printing. They'd be way expensive, a tactical marine CD/download would probably be in the $100-$150 range but you could print off as many as you wanted. This would only be legal for you to do so however, just like with music.

That alone frees up their revenue and resources by having the customer themselves do the manufacturing. So with that alone they could bring out a lot more new codexes.

Now on the other hand if they DON'T do this, they're asking for trouble, because people can and will scan the models, and illegally produce their own. So they will have to accept this or start loosing business when the technology becomes available.

Facepalm.

Seriously? I guess you've missed the part where GW has always maintained that they are a miniatures company that just happens to make some rules to go along with those minis.

Further, as both DK and Link have said below, the notion that they'd sell a file from which you can produce your own minis is absurd. Simply absurd.

[gendoikari87]

Their current production team is inadequate to support 16 codicesso the lost art of hiring new people has been lost?



Further, as both DK and Link have said below, the notion that they'd sell a file from which you can produce your own minis is absurd. Simply absurd.
This isn't something GW has any choice about, either they sell ways to print them off with 3d printers or they go under when they become cheap. Period. The music industry adapted, forcibly against its will, GW will be required to do the same or go bankrupt. Those are it's options, the same ones the music industry faced, and adapted to.

[DarkLink]

Why would you hire a bunch of new people to do a bunch of work that isn't going to make them very much money?

GW is in the business of selling models. The rules are a vehicle to do so, and they might make some profit off the books themselves, but they're targeting a limited demographic and already have a wide spread of rules. Producing new rules isn't likely to draw more people, and if you don't bring in more people you're not going to bring in any significant amount of profit.

Since hiring people is expensive, there's a very good reason for GW to not do this.





Actually, look at that reddit thing involving a GW ex-employee talking about all sorts of stuff. Several times he mentions Blood Bowl, which was basically all rules and no models in terms of sales. It was an absolute disaster for the company. They invested a lot of money to meet popular demand for new rules and stuff, but because there wasn't a need for players to continuously buy new models, or to invest a lot of money in order to play compared to 40k or Fantasy, GW made very little profit at a big expense to them.

You're proposing they do pretty much the same thing as with Blood Bowl. Hire people and produce a bunch of new rules, but without the means to effectively produce and market more models than they currently do. It just doesn't make business sense.

[gendoikari87]

GW is in the business of selling models.
And the music industry was in the business of selling CD's.


You're proposing they do pretty much the same thing as with Blood Bowl.
yes because when the music industry learned it couldn't sell physical CD's as much anymore it gave up and went under, and certainly didn't make money off of digital downloads. SUUUUUUUUUUUURE. In any case your missing the point, the point is, this isn't up to GW, when 3d printers become common place, they will go under or start selling downloads like the music industry. Period, there are no other options, and if they try to keep the physical models only policy, they will forcethemselves into bankruptcy.



or are you guys naive enough to think that cheap 3D printers will have no impact on GW what so ever?

P.S. Makerbot, while not quite there yet for the above mentioned cheapness, can mass produce vehicle sized GW models. And they will get better and cheaper.

Edit: wow, also think about the poseability of a printable file, and the conversion possibilities.

[DarkLink]

In five years it might be a problem, sure. I'll point out though, the irony of proposing that GW go from a model company to a cd company like the music industry used to be.

GW's going to need a better solution than that, I think. The music industry certainly isn't in the clear yet either, and the movie industry is still trying to deal with it as well. I think all of them are going to need a great big reality check and will have to figure something out in the next decade. I doubt that any of them will look much like they currently do now.

But at the moment, there's little reason for GW to change their policies.

[gendoikari87]

In five years it might be a problem, sure. I'll point out though, the irony of proposing that GW go from a model company to a cd company like the music industry used to be.

GW's going to need a better solution than that, I think. The music industry certainly isn't in the clear yet either, and the movie industry is still trying to deal with it as well. I think all of them are going to need a great big reality check and will have to figure something out in the next decade. I doubt that any of them will look much like they currently do now.

But at the moment, there's little reason for GW to change their policies.

well yeah, I don't see a $500 printer that can print infantry coming out this year or anything, but it's not that far off, five years might even be a little soon (of course that's just a guess). But yeah, technology advances, and you have to adapt with it, and take advantage of it, or become obsolete. If you fight it, you doom your self to obscurity.

[wittdooley]

And the music industry was in the business of selling CD's.



And this, my friend, is where you don't get it. The music industry is in the business of SELLING MUSIC and PERSONALITIES and CONTENT. Key in on CONTENT. They couldn't care less what format they're selling it in. Despite the fact that if you have half a notion how, millions of copies of songs are still purchased on iTunes weekly. That's how the music industry makes it's money. It had nothing to do with CDs.

GW is not solely in the business of selling content. As I said before, they state that they're a miniatures company that produces some content. They produce a hard, tangible product. By your justifcations, any company that used 3D printing or any kind of CAD based designs is in trouble. You should totally call Hasbro and let them know.

And the notion that you think affordable, at-home 3D printers will become the norm is pretty interesting to me. I think it's foolish and completely off base, but its interesting nonetheless.

[gendoikari87]

And this, my friend, is where you don't get it. The music industry is in the business of SELLING MUSIC and PERSONALITIES and CONTENT. Key in on CONTENT. They couldn't care less what format they're selling it in. Despite the fact that if you have half a notion how, millions of copies of songs are still purchased on iTunes weekly. That's how the music industry makes it's money. It had nothing to do with CDs.

GW is not solely in the business of selling content. As I said before, they state that they're a miniatures company that produces some content. They produce a hard, tangible product. By your justifcations, any company that used 3D printing or any kind of CAD based designs is in trouble. You should totally call Hasbro and let them know.

And the notion that you think affordable, at-home 3D printers will become the norm is pretty interesting to me. I think it's foolish and completely off base, but its interesting nonetheless.

The notion that they will not become commonplace is foolish, history prooves this, and you are a fool if you think otherwise, a fool who knows nothing of technological history. And besides, how will GW make money when they're selling 1/100th of what they did before because they overprice their models when you can make them for a tenth of the price at home? answer that.

and yes, hasbro will go under, they don't even have the same options GW does, they are just going to wither away. But so will be the fate of many, many businesses.

Of course if you just want to sound like one of those guys that used to say "if man were meant to fly he would have been born with wings" so be it.

[DarkLink]

I did laugh a little when someone on the reddit thread I mentioned earlier said GW wasn't worried because of the quality of 3d printers, and he posted this:
http://www.3dfuture.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/dreadnought-printed-mounted_display_medium.jpg

3d printers nowadays can do stuff like this (3d print of a warmachine model):
http://www.lauch3d.com/Typhon004.jpg

The only real issue is cost, which will eventually go down. One thing to point out is that it is much cheaper overall to mass produce using molds, so until there's a 3d printer in every household then GW doesn't have to worry about it supplanting normal model production. That probably won't be for a pretty long time.

Edit: BTW, that's actually the computer model of typhon, but the actual print is very high quality so whatever.

[doom-kitten]

XD 3D printers commonplace :p Oh god thats funny, you think those things will drop to 500 dollars eventually? You need a sanity pill seriously, GW is not going to go under and they have every right not to bow to some deluded 3D inevitablity, the things will always be expensive maybe not as expensive but your common joe/jane doe is not gonna be buying one like it's a TV. Did you actually research the things or just look at it and automatically assume your an expert, the instant those thnigs become a problem to companies you can bet your bacon they'll get strict regulations.

[eldargal]

Doom-kitten is correct, I can't see enough people in GWs core demographic having access to 3D printers to threaten their business. Unlike a regular printer they won't be a household item.

[Deadlift]

I can see where Gen is going with this though,
It is commonly thought that 3D printers will become more advanced and used more widely. Especially in the automotive spares and medical industries where very specific parts which at the moment have to be ordered and shipped, will just be downloaded and printed in the fraction of time.
Its not such a great leap to think how this technology could find its way into our homes in the future, Theres experimentation at the moment with using a type of 3D printer to produce food (granulated sugar at the moment).
Dont discredit the thought that we wont be buying downloads for home 3D printers in the future. I personally think it will happen. Well maybe not in my lifetime but surely in my children's.
The applications would be endless and any company would leap at the ability to sell a product they don't actually have to manufacture themselves. Want size 13 Nike trainers, just download them.
Where Gen' s thoughts would be wrong in my thoughts is companys wont sell you a download to be used over and over but you will get a one off specific code that is a one time use with each purchase.
or much like the redeemable codes we have for itunes or xbox. You will purchase either a one off print or a code entitleing you to print a certain monetary amount of product. when the voucher is used or the prepaid limit is reached then your done until you prepay some more.
I can see companies like GW would see some major advantages for this as their physical manufacturing costs could effectively become nothing.
However I do think this is a long way off and we could well see 26th ed rules before this technology is commonplace in the home :D

Its kind of a mute argument really because I suspect were all be dead before we see star trek style replicators in our homes

[gcsmith]

3D printing going to replace normal manufacture, because the way its produced leads to an inferier product.

IF we ever printed with metals, the metal would be weaker than a molded version, so Hmm I need a new part for a car, I could get a quality one produced from techniques that use molten steal, or use a part produced from metal dust....

I know what i would chose.

3D printers may possibly be a threat for Model companies, but the molded versions of models will always be higher quality due to the way its manufactured.

[gendoikari87]

Doom-kitten is correct, I can't see enough people in GWs core demographic having access to 3D printers to threaten their business. Unlike a regular printer they won't be a household item.

again, these are words people eat when it comes to technological advancement. Think of everything you use that's plastic. or could be made from high quality plastic. Now imagine all of that was half cost or less.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZ0ONAZrg6M

That, that is what we can do now with the high quality printers, technology gets smaller and better. in 20 years at most, we will see printers of this quality or better in homes. Remember what laptops were like in the early 90's? people said the same thing about them that your saying about 3D printers.

They were wrong then, as the people who said we'd never fly were wrong before them. as you are wrong now.

However I do think this is a long way off and we could well see 26th ed rules before this technology is commonplace in the home

nah, I'd say 8th or 9th edition, 10th at the very latest.

[Deadlift]

3D printing going to replace normal manufacture, because the way its produced leads to an inferier product.

IF we ever printed with metals, the metal would be weaker than a molded version, so Hmm I need a new part for a car, I could get a quality one produced from techniques that use molten steal, or use a part produced from metal dust....

I know what i would chose.

3D printers may possibly be a threat for Model companies, but the molded versions of models will always be higher quality due to the way its manufactured.

GCSmith your assessment is based on current technology. 3D printer advances in quality are coming on rapidly and the with those advances it will outstrip other methods of production regardless of materials used. I don't think they would be looking at using this technology to produce inferior parts for automotive use or replacement prosthetic limbs in hospitals. Think of the dangers that would imply.

@Gendoikari I see the point your making, but it will take some time for this type of purchasing to become the "norm" and if GW actually do take the plunge in the future with this technology and how they would implement it, we will have to wait and see :)

[DarkLink]

3D printing going to replace normal manufacture, because the way its produced leads to an inferier product.

Not necessarily. And there's no reason to expect that just because current technology is a little limited that future printers won't overcome those problems.



IF we ever printed with metals, the metal would be weaker than a molded version, so Hmm I need a new part for a car, I could get a quality one produced from techniques that use molten steal, or use a part produced from metal dust....

Actually, you're completely off base here. We can currently print 3d metal models, and they're actually much, much quicker and easier to work with than other production methods. Believe it or not, metal is pretty hard to work with (pun intended). 3d printing can be used to make virtually anything, no matter how complex, out of hard metals in a matter of one or two days. It is more useful for harder metals than pewter, though.

The process is actually pretty ingenious, and doesn't compromise the strength of the metal. They get a big box of metal powder and use a very weak adhesive spray to print out the 3d model, which forms a very fragile, loose lattice of metal powders in the final shape. Then they melt more of the metal and basically let it soak into the pores, which fills up the rest of the lattice. Then they throw the whole thing into a big furnace that fuses it all together. I'm pretty sure the weak adhesive gets displaced in the process, turning it into pure metal of the appropriate shape. Whole process takes maybe two days.

You might not want to use it for things that require extreme precision, like engine parts, but for anything else it's pretty impressive. It also might be slightly weaker than normal, but for most applications it will still be perfectly strong, and for all I know it could be just as strong. It also might not be appropriate for gaming models, but there are plenty of other uses.



3D printers may possibly be a threat for Model companies, but the molded versions of models will always be higher quality due to the way its manufactured.

They also used to say that plastics would never rival metal model quality. And you can make stuff with 3d printers you'd never be able to make with a mold. No, the issue is one of cost. Molds are cheaper to mass produce a particular model.

[Wildeybeast]

again, these are words people eat when it comes to technological advancement. Think of everything you use that's plastic. or could be made from high quality plastic. Now imagine all of that was half cost or less.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZ0ONAZrg6M

That, that is what we can do now with the high quality printers, technology gets smaller and better. in 20 years at most, we will see printers of this quality or better in homes. Remember what laptops were like in the early 90's? people said the same thing about them that your saying about 3D printers.

They were wrong then, as the people who said we'd never fly were wrong before them. as you are wrong now.

Your reasoning is somewhat flawed. Yes technology may progress and reduce the cost, but they won't be commonplace because most people don't want one. Who actually wants or needs one? The only uses I've seen given for them so far are making car parts and producing GW knock offs. Kids are not going to be nagging parents for the latest 3d printer for Xmas and tech savy 20-somethings are not going to be eagerly awaiting the latest model, because they don't have anything to do with them. The market for them will be very niche and that will keep costs high and also limit technological development. These are not going to be the new Ipod.
Most of the things I own that are plastic have other non-plastic bits to them, things that need assembly. The only thing you can really 'print' is things made entirely made out of plastic. The only things I own that meet that criteria are toys, namely models.
Oh, and your analogy about flying is flawed. People have always wanted to fly which led to a series of inventors throughout history attempting to develop the technology. Humanity has never had a deep-seated desire to print out plastic models in their own home.


The process is actually pretty ingenious, and doesn't compromise the strength of the metal. They get a big box of metal powder and use a very weak adhesive spray to print out the 3d model, which forms a very fragile, loose lattice of metal powders in the final shape. Then they melt more of the metal and basically let it soak into the pores, which fills up the rest of the lattice. Then they throw the whole thing into a big furnace that fuses it all together. I'm pretty sure the weak adhesive gets displaced in the process, turning it into pure metal of the appropriate shape. Whole process takes maybe two days.

You might not want to use it for things that require extreme precision, like engine parts, but for anything else it's pretty impressive. It also might be slightly weaker than normal, but for most applications it will still be perfectly strong, and for all I know it could be just as strong. It also might not be appropriate for gaming models, but there are plenty of other uses.

So, we all need big furnaces in our homes to use it for metal? ;)

I am interested to know what else you can use it for, the only things I've seen mentioned so far are engine parts and gaming models.

[Deadlift]

Future 3D Printing Applications

Whether or not they arrive en-mass in the home, 3D printers have many promising areas of potential future application. They may, for example, be used to output spare parts for all manner of products, and which could not possibly be stocked as part of the inventory of even the best physical store. Hence, rather than throwing away a broken item (something unlikely to be justified a decade or two hence due to resource depletion and enforced recycling), faulty goods will be able to be taken to a local facility that will call up the appropriate spare parts online and simply print them out. NASA has already tested a 3D printer on the International Space Station, and recently announced its requirement for a high resolution 3D printer to produce spacecraft parts during deep space missions. The US Army has also experimented with a truck-mounted 3D printer capable of outputting spare tank and other vehicle components in the battlefield.

3D printers may also be used to make future buildings. To this end, a team at Loughborough University is working on a 3D concrete printing project that could allow large building components to be 3D printed on-site to any design, and with improved thermal properties.

Another possible future application is in the use of 3D printers to create replacement organs for the human body. This is known as bioprinting, and is an area of rapid development. You can learn more on the bioprinting page, or see more in my bioprinting video or the Future Visions gallery.

Another potential arena of 3D printing application is in the culture industries. Sculptor Bathsheba Grossman already uses 3D printers to create her works. In the future, museums could also print out exhibits as required from their own digital collection, or indeed from a global archive of artworks scanned from long-lost or too-delicate-to-display originals. You can find out more about 3D artworks, including a great video, on the Singularity Hub.

Taken from this article

http://www.explainingthefuture.com/3dprinting.html

obviously just because its a written article does not make it so, but its an interesting read.

[gcsmith]

I think 3D printers have amazing capabilities, but I do not agree they will rival the prices or make modelling dirt cheap. Hell GW would just sell u something that lets u prints 10 marines, they will never let u print unlimited amounts, Heck there goes any sense of hobby.

I currently enjoy getting new kits because it happens rarely, whats the point when u can have a whole apocalypse army in minutes.

And 3d printing machines won't be dirt cheap. Heck There is no reason for it to get cheap. Most of the uses are industrial so they will only be cheap for industry not personal use.

Secondly It wouldnt impact GW anyway, at least not on a scale to bankrupt them.

Also consider there will be various brands of printers and qualities ( if they get cheap) On that basis it would be easier just to get it from GW.

[Wildeybeast]

Thanks for that. They sound like interesting applications for this technology and it could have great potential if they ever get off the ground, but even if all those things do come to pass (and I remain highly sceptical about some of them), I still don't see 3d printers being affordable for the average consumer and thus I can't see them having any serious impact on GW's business.

[Deadlift]

Thanks for that. They sound like interesting applications for this technology and it could have great potential if they ever get off the ground, but even if all those things do come to pass (and I remain highly sceptical about some of them), I still don't see 3d printers being affordable for the average consumer and thus I can't see them having any serious impact on GW's business.

If they can get them to make shoes and handbags expect to see them in every home :)
Joking aside I think I am with you there, I am sceptical about seeing these machines as an everyday household in the near future object but who knows.

[gendoikari87]

um...... I just found this. Expect to start seeing entire GW printed out armies in 7th edition, or 6th edition..Maybe not commonplace but daaaaang

http://www.ted.com/talks/klaus_stadlmann_the_world_s_smallest_3d_printer.ht ml I think the retail on this would be in the $4000 (cost to build was 1000 pounds). And that's nano scale level detail.

From the horses mouth:


Some objects that the team of mechanical engineers and chemical researchers suggest include construction parts for hearing aids, rare spare parts that are impossible to track down or self-designed jewellery. Whatever the case, Hatzenbichler and Stadlmann hope their device leads to 3D printers becoming a household object for everyone to enjoy.


so does anyone want to join up and go in on one of these with me?

[gcsmith]

TBH I don't want 3d printers to be common place. Imagine all the jobs that would get cut

[wittdooley]

um...... I just found this. Expect to start seeing entire GW printed out armies in 7th edition, or 6th edition..Maybe not commonplace but daaaaang

http://www.ted.com/talks/klaus_stadlmann_the_world_s_smallest_3d_printer.ht ml I think the retail on this would be in the $4000 (cost to build was 1000 pounds). And that's nano scale level detail.

From the horses mouth:




so does anyone want to join up and go in on one of these with me?

Well ****. Only $4K? These things are going to be bigger than the iPod.

And then you have to either A: leard to design your own 3D plans, or B: find a place to get those plans from.

Your plan is foolproof Gen. Hahhahhaha.

[gendoikari87]

Well ****. Only $4K? These things are going to be bigger than the iPod.

And then you have to either A: leard to design your own 3D plans, or B: find a place to get those plans from.

Your plan is foolproof Gen. Hahhahhaha.

They're called 3D scanners, and Pirate bay.

[gendoikari87]

TBH I don't want 3d printers to be common place. Imagine all the jobs that would get cut

Imagine all the people we would free up to be scientists to create more great stuff like these printers. Now lets get cracking on that education.

Also 4000 is just a guess based on the original cost of roughly 2000 USD

[gcsmith]

Imagine all the people we would free up to be scientists to create more great stuff like these printers. Now lets get cracking on that education.

Also 4000 is just a guess based on the original cost of roughly 2000 USD

I have no problem with new technology, but I think the amount of people who would lose jobs would be excessive.

Also I think its hyped, you wont be able to print out a burger, or a nike trainers. Heck Nike trainers are made of non powdered materials

[gendoikari87]

I have no problem with new technology, but I think the amount of people who would lose jobs would be excessive.

Also I think its hyped, you wont be able to print out a burger, or a nike trainers. Heck Nike trainers are made of non powdered materials

No, but it will be the age of crocs.... Oh god, what have we done! In all seriousness though you could print out fork, knives, Combs, Gadgets. Hell picture frames, buckets, cups, small little toys. The sky is endless.

also, we can't let loss of jobs due to technology be a concern, merely an impedus to improve education to get more people to do mental labor jobs, because physical labor will eventually (read 1000 years from now) become obsolete if we don't block this kind of technology.

[wittdooley]

No, but it will be the age of crocs.... Oh god, what have we done! In all seriousness though you could print out fork, knives, Combs, Gadgets. Hell picture frames, buckets, cups, small little toys. The sky is endless.

also, we can't let loss of jobs due to technology be a concern, merely an impedus to improve education to get more people to do mental labor jobs, because physical labor will eventually (read 1000 years from now) become obsolete if we don't block this kind of technology.

So your solution is "3D scanners and Pirate Bay". Face palm.

"We can't let the loss of jobs due to technology be a concern......". Wow.maybe you don't understand how the economy works, but we need to create MORE jobs, not eliminate them. I think that perhaps you don't work, or are too young to work, with a statement like that.

Also. Touché on the impetus to educate.

[gendoikari87]

So your solution is "3D scanners and Pirate Bay". Face palm.

"We can't let the loss of jobs due to technology be a concern......". Wow.maybe you don't understand how the economy works, but we need to create MORE jobs, not eliminate them. I think that perhaps you don't work, or are too young to work, with a statement like that.

Also. Touché on the impetus to educate.
Yes we need to create more jobs, those need not be slave level factory workers, they can in fact be scientists. Furthermore, your not going to get the manufacturing jobs back from china where they have actual slave level jobs. Just not going to happen. So it makes no difference. That is unless we eliminate the minimum wage.


I'm done talking to fools now.


Also. Touché on the impetus to educate
damn autocorrect.

[Kawauso]

I fear we're starting to meander off-topic, however...

So people who were working, say, factory jobs, are going to become scientists?
How are they going to afford their education? How are they going to afford the time it takes to get a new education? How many of them will actually be -able- to complete such an education?

Also, what would the job prospects be for science majors, for example, if there were suddenly so many new scientists?

Menial jobs are kind of important in that aspect. I mean, look at how hard it is to get a job right now in some places regardless of your education level. Heck, sometimes being well-educated is an impediment with regards to getting a job.

I'm not saying that the advent of something like 3D printers is bad necessarily...just that your arguments are, in my opinion, kind of flimsy.

[wittdooley]

damn autocorrect.

Ahhh. So you've misspelled impetus incorrectly so often that your auto correct now incorrectly fixes it? Amazing. You should call one of the new scientists the removal of all those jobs created to fix it for you. Maybe one of those ex-Hasbro or Mattel employees since you're 3D printers are going to put everyone out of business.

You should really warn Wizards of the Coast too. I hear there are these things called "inkjet and laser printers" that may be moving in on their ability to sell Magic cards. You could potentially save their business, you tech savvy Nostadamus you.

[doom-kitten]

Just because I realized no one else mentioned it, you do realize a printer creates a roughly equal copy right right? Which means any copied model would have the exact same pose as the next marine you copy and the marine you copied before that? Sure they could create these CD's to vary in poses, say three or four standing at ready, one kneeling, a couple walking/running but every marine army would be based off of these poses, and not only that but you'd need a seperate CD to create melta marines and missile laucher armed marines and any other variances in wargear.

Coversion would take a nose dive because the bits would be literally attached to the model and you'd have to hack it off to even swap it out with something, but wait they could make CD's that download a sprue instead so you buy a CD print a sprue and then clip, assemble and paint. Hum don't we already do that? And everyone loves spending 4000 dollars to buy a machine just to do it with a printable sprue, wow printable. And you assume the CD will be cheaper than just buying a tactical squad in a box, of course it's gonna be a one use only CD, GW is far from stupid, they'd just charge us more for the luxury of making their products from home.

These things are meant to create copies of parts to repair broken objects such as chair legs or a cracked television remote, theres absolutely no conversion invovled in a chair leg, no assembly, no need for bit swapping or changing of heads to create diversity among your chair legs. I can see these machines use in creating spare parts for modeling but not a whole model unless your copying one you've already built which would be illegal. You seem to be forgeting GW already likely uses this technology to create their template models and likely already know how and when it will affect their productivity and you also assume it's easier because no one has to sit around designing the model right. Well facepalm yourself, theres still a dude sitting a chair being paid to create computer models and copy them to CD, and those production lines to create models are now producing and packaging GW CDs.

So no productivity and jobs will not be saved, and no scientist will be freed up to do anything more exciting then creating the next Skin care product or conducting experiments on Pigeon crap, not only that but I'm fairly certain the CD while be outdated by the time this becomes commonplace.

[doom-kitten]

Imagine all the people we would free up to be scientists to create more great stuff like these printers. Now lets get cracking on that education.

Also 4000 is just a guess based on the original cost of roughly 2000 USD

What? Free up the scientists? Free them from what? Chaos? The need to create pointless science like fake boobies? Free them from ongoing medical sciences? How many scientists are working on these printers, i'm thinking their likely the work of mechanical engineers and such guys not scientists per say, and why would printers jump start education, computers didn't, IPods didn't, convential paper printers didn't and I'm pretty sure schools haven't either.

[DarkLink]

Or you could just print out dudes with no weapons, print the weapons separately, and stick the appropriate weapon in the Marine's hands. It would make it a whole lot easier to get all the right weapons in your squad without having a sprue of leftover junk.

[DarkLink]

Ahhh. So you've misspelled impetus incorrectly so often that your auto correct now incorrectly fixes it? Amazing. You should call one of the new scientists the removal of all those jobs created to fix it for you. Maybe one of those ex-Hasbro or Mattel employees since you're 3D printers are going to put everyone out of business. .


What? Free up the scientists? Free them from what? Chaos? The need to create pointless science like fake boobies? Free them from ongoing medical sciences?

There's disagreeing with someone, and then there's being a dick. We're all friends here.





Incidentally, I believe what he's trying to say is that if you don't employ a bunch of people with menial labor because it's all been automated, hopefully the reduced demand for low wage jobs will promote higher level employment and education. I'm not sure that's such a simple and realistic economic solution, but as technology supplements labor it is an issue we will probably start to run into.

[wittdooley]

There's disagreeing with someone, and then there's being a dick. We're all friends here.



Yes, you're correct. But how long do we have to point out how asinine and foolish an argument is before we can start doing that :D





Incidentally, I believe what he's trying to say is that if you don't employ a bunch of people with menial labor because it's all been automated, hopefully the reduced demand for low wage jobs will promote higher level employment and education. I'm not sure that's such a simple and realistic economic solution, but as technology supplements labor it is an issue we will probably start to run into.

In the US, we already have far too many people that shouldn't be in college, in college. Why? Because we don't have nearly the trade system many of the European, predominately homogeneous countries do. Nor are we going to. We don't need to get involved with how effed up the US education system is, but to even PRESENT the argument that people working factory jobs, or construction jobs, or most other labor intensive jobs would be our future scientists is ludicrous.

Again, refer to my M:tG jab. Wizards seems to sell plenty of cards and those are FAR easier to pirate than anything requiring a frakking 3D printer would ever be.

[doom-kitten]

Or you could just print out dudes with no weapons, print the weapons separately, and stick the appropriate weapon in the Marine's hands. It would make it a whole lot easier to get all the right weapons in your squad without having a sprue of leftover junk.

Irregardless, doesn't change much, you still have limited poses and need two printings just to make one marine, and doesn't change the difficulties to conversion either and I think I mentioned a seperate printing for special weapons.

Also as to the friends part, I'm sorry it's very difficult to show sarcasm on the internets with out excessive use of emoticons and I often forget that fact, plus I was unaware we were friends (sarcasm).

In a side note if this technology becomes an extreme reality, jobs will be created not lost, in technological countries there are more people servicing technology then there is technology stealing peoples jobs. The machine that makes oys requires a human to fix it, not only that but someone has to build and create these computer templates nessacary to use the Printer in the first place and it's very likely they will make jobs involving repairs faster, while I don't see a printed object replacing a true blue piece of say a car, I do think a quick print piece can do the job until a better replacement can be aquired. A friend of mine has a 3D printer, it's low quality and he used it for plastic plague bearers but trashed them when he learned the resin reacted terribly with GW paints.

PS. We already have more scientists then we know what to do with, we actually need more labour professionals, the scientists may make the discoveries but someone has to build it, test it, then sell it. Not to mention that if the 3D printer reaches potential, like say building houses someone still has to go in and put in the wiring, the ventalation, doors, windows and all the little things that a 3D printer cannot do, it can copy a car part but it can't put it on the car or inspect the peice to ensure it's safe nor can it test it.

[gendoikari87]

In the US, we already have far too many people that shouldn't be in college, in college.

You can't have too many educated people.


but to even PRESENT the argument that people working factory jobs, or construction jobs, or most other labor intensive jobs would be our future scientists is ludicrous.

So what do you propose we do as their jobs are moved to china or eliminated via technology? You're starting to sound like one of these people who stand boldly against the march of technology, and hurt everyone else in the process because you fear that which you don't understand.

[Deadlift]

Guys, I think maybe were going around in circles now trying to debate the unprovable (atm). Back on topic and my last post for this wildly divergent thread........you can never have enough power armoured codices (is this the actual plural for codex ?) :confused:

[Charistoph]

You can't have too many educated people.

Too true. Unfortunately, this would only be a point if the majority in college were actually seeking an education there in something worthwhile and practical. How many Liberal Arts and Underwater Basket Weaving Majors are there? How many are actually doing far too much practical studying in personal inebriation, intoxication, impregnation, and infection?


Guys, I think maybe were going around in circles now trying to debate the unprovable (atm). Back on topic and my last post for this wildly divergent thread........you can never have enough power armoured codices (is this the actual plural for codex ?) :confused:

I do believe you can when the rest of the series suffers. How much chocolate is too much? When you suffer severe issues of malnutrition. How many PA codecies are too much? When you're releasing a new edition, and you still have a majority of your non-PA codecies undone, outdated, or left on the magazine floor.

[Levitas]

"Coming soon! Codex Dark Angels!..."

I mean, how excited can you get about that unless your a DA player.

"Coming soon! New 40k race!"

More excited? Personal preference of course. But GW doing new things always gets me in the mood to buy models. The constant marine re-hash machine could run out of significant ideas at some point too. For a race that is pretty much the same, how many times can they make it the 'same but different'?

At the moment its just variations of a core. The addition of the storm raven was good, it was shiny and actually different. Having a DA pred with a plasma cannon option is not doing it for me.

[gendoikari87]

Guys, I think maybe were going around in circles now trying to debate the unprovable (atm). Back on topic and my last post for this wildly divergent thread........you can never have enough power armoured codices (is this the actual plural for codex ?) :confused:

Both are acceptable from what I've seen. as for power armor? doesn't too many kind of dilute the significance of the 3+ save. Speaking of which, the only real 4+ save codexes are in need of updating and one of those is mostly used as a jetbike army.

[DarkLink]

Codices is the technically correct version. Do a google search on plural for codex, and you'll get a bunch of dictionary websites to confirm this. Codex is a latin word, it doesn't follow the normal rules in english for plurals.

Codexes is kinda like irregardless. They're not actually words (and if irregardless was actually a word it means the exact opposite of what people use it for), but so many people use it that anyone will understand you. You'll just give english majors a headache.

[doom-kitten]

No there is not too much 3+, not when one considers the ridiculous amount of shots/CC attacks many armies can toss out, when your throwing 120 shots at someone their 3+ save on a 10 man unit, that unit is taking some booboos unless the dice gods really like you. Not only that but the number of AP3-2 and power weapons that are available throughout the game makes it pretty easy to prepare for a 3+ save opponent, I'm more annoyed but how increasingly fast games can be played. Last night I saw one guy play and win three games in under 4 hours because his opponents where done by turn three.

[gendoikari87]

yeah about that increased access to AP 3 and better.....

[DarkLink]

Yeah, why don't my Grey Knights have any high AP guns!?

[gendoikari87]

Yeah, why don't my Grey Knights have any high AP guns!?

might have something to do with universal access to power weapons.

[doom-kitten]

yeah about that increased access to AP 3 and better.....

Seriously? Your gonna pick on that now, really how many armies do not have troop available plama. melta, or unique weapons such as Starcannons. Not counting the nice flame weapons and bio blast templates, (Bane wolf, Redeemer), or even large blast templates, it's not that hard to give a pounding to marines or any other army featuring 3+ saves. Go ahead what army do you play gen? I can take a look at the codex and see just how many AP 3 or better weapons it can have and how widely dispersed they are among the list, maybe I'm wrong.

And really Dark? A whole army with force weapons, and I happen to know they can get low AP weapons unless my friend is somehow cheating, don't they have Redeemers and Raiders with lascannons, Stormravens with Plasma and Meltagun or that Dreadknight (not to sure about the dreadknight, have only seen it used once). I highly doubt GK have no AP3 or better weapons.

[wittdooley]

And really Dark? A whole army with force weapons, and I happen to know they can get low AP weapons unless my friend is somehow cheating, don't they have Redeemers and Raiders with lascannons, Stormravens with Plasma and Meltagun or that Dreadknight (not to sure about the dreadknight, have only seen it used once). I highly doubt GK have no AP3 or better weapons.

It's not that they dont have them....they don't have a lot of them, nor do their scoring squads have access to them. If you're playing a full GK army, and not an inquistorial army, you're looking at getting your AP3 or better weapons out of your vehicles, and that's it. Their heavy weapons squad cannot take Lascannons, Multi-Meltas, or Plasma Cannons. Best AP you're getting out of them is AP 4. I'd hardly call that an overabundance of "useful" anti MEQ AP weaponry.

Now, with an inquisitorial army you can absolutely spam the hell out of AP3 or better, but not full GK.

[gendoikari87]

Seriously? Your gonna pick on that now, really how many armies do not have troop available plama. melta, or unique weapons such as Starcannons. Not counting the nice flame weapons and bio blast templates, (Bane wolf, Redeemer), or even large blast templates, it's not that hard to give a pounding to marines or any other army featuring 3+ saves. Go ahead what army do you play gen? I can take a look at the codex and see just how many AP 3 or better weapons it can have and how widely dispersed they are among the list, maybe I'm wrong.
.

I was saying that the increased access ISN'T a good thing, not that we need more. and right now I have no army sold it off to pay rent. when i get a job though it'll either be Tau or Admech counts as with grey knights or a vulkan army (probably vulkan).

Power armor should be one of those things that means something. If everyone and their mother can kill 3+ enmass then you might as well be wearing jack and jump into cover. 3+ should really be some security, like it is (or was before GK) in CC.

[wittdooley]

You don't think there's any security in a 66% chance to make a save?

Plus, it makes sense that armies without an abundance of 3+ would have weapons to combat 3+. They have to build weapons to defeat that. And it's not like 3+ is in every army. You simply see more 3+ because more people play Marines than anything else.

Eldar, Tau, Dark Eldar, Nids, Necrons now... None of them have an overabundance of 3+.

[gendoikari87]

You don't think there's any security in a 66% chance to make a save?

Plus, it makes sense that armies without an abundance of 3+ would have weapons to combat 3+. They have to build weapons to defeat that. And it's not like 3+ is in every army. You simply see more 3+ because more people play Marines than anything else.

Eldar, Tau, Dark Eldar, Nids, Necrons now... None of them have an overabundance of 3+.

Sooon.... soooon.....

and there is security in a 3+ save, when you get to use it.

[DarkLink]

I was joking there. But, no, Grey Knights in general do not have very many competitive options with high AP ranged firepower, or at least not significant amounts of it.

I, however, am not the least bit intimidated by really any power armor armies. Grey Knights can out-shoot and out-fight most other Marine armies. The Grey Knights' weakness is not their offensive firepower, it's their ability to project force with a limited number of units. That's why noobs think Grey Knights are broken, yet Grey knights are no more represented in the top tier at tournaments than Space Wolves, Orks, or other top-tier armies. They're easy to play fairly well, but extremely difficult to play perfectly.

[vulkan_tu'shaun]

i play salamander marine and i can say this, i love the guys but they are far too easy to beat. if you are lacking in ranged weaponry to combat mine then you up the anti and stop me using the range. against marines i have no trouble winning because mine get hammered and i find the weakness and exploit it on the next marine player i face lol. ive had a tau army, 4+ save was ample when i could sit back with pulse rifles at 30in range and be happy even though they are not brilliant AP/S. its finding the right way to use troops and who to combat with certain troops