What is the most effective anti-aircraft weapon?

[Denzark]

I am interested in a mathshammer expert telling me what the most effective AA weapon in the game is, against what I think is the worst air threat - the Thunderhawk.

The T-hawk has flyer status, so need a 6 to hit, 4++ save, s-points, hit a main weapon for another 4++.

So everyone's favourite hydra on S7 might not be as much cop. Particulalrly when you ffactor in any air commander worth his salt is going to target your AA!

other thoughts are Hyperion defences, Sabre Lascannon platforms, Lightning aircraft firing all air-to-air missiles into rear arc (I forget is it 12-12-10 or 12 all around?) Also contemptor with some AA capacity.

What are the thoughts everyone, could vindicare do it?

Cheers,

Denzark

[thecactusman17]

If the vindi hits it, he will definitely do damage. Another amazing option could be the gk psyrifle dread with its 4 twin linked s8 shots. Even at 6s to hit you should manage one or two and the s8 is going to help a lot. If you play Eldar at all, don't forget swooping hawks and their interceptor rule.

[Scion_of_Terra]

Swooping hawks w/ Interceptor is a good one, and is the primary reason for my ever fielding them.

Continuing the Eldar theme, Nightwings (Aerial Interceptor rule - all guns count as AA).

Looking ahead, assuming that 6th ed establishes all the new 'flying stand' skimmers as flyers, then perhaps also the DE Voidraven (dual BS4 S9 lances) or Razorwing, if they get rules similar to their craftworld cousins' flying machines.

Here's a thought: Apocalypse data sheets where flyers can take dedicated anti-air heat-seeking missiles. Unlikely, but it would be awesome.

[AbusePuppy]

I believe the Thunderhawk is 12/12/12, but I could be wrong on that.

Obviously any kind of AA platform will be your best bet- most of them are twin-linked for additional accuracy, and a few have special rules to ignore the 4+ cover that flyers normally (like the Hydra.) If you can mitigate those factors, especially the "6s to hit" part, flyers actually start looking rather fragile, since their AVs are typically quite low.

The Lightning and Nightwing are both very cost-effective AA platforms; it will be hard to do much better than them, although Hydras make a good run for it. Looking to other factions, Lootas are one of the best things Orks can use against them, as hitting on 5s vs hitting on 6s isn't really that much of a disadvantage. Tau can easily mitigate the cover and have some okay fliers, but virtually no good ground-based AA platforms; Tyranids, Daemons, and others are even worse off in that respect.

Remember that blast and template weapons can never hit flyer models; a Vindicator won't cut it.

[DarkLink]

Vindicare, not vindicator. Though the fact that the vindicare doesn't have any anti-aircraft rules so he hits on 6's with a single shot means he's not exactly good at touching flyers either. Not that I've ever seen a vindicare get more than one shot before being killed even in regular games anyways.

[DrLove42]

The bad news is you're all wrong

The 3 best AA weapons in the game are the Hydra, the FW Manticore and the Necron Pylon.

The Hydra is the only AA weapon that ignores the cover save all fliers get, already making it 50% more effective than anything else. Yes it only glances on a 5, but its a superheavy flier. You do a structure point on a roll of a 5, but chain reaction on a 4 or a 6. So you get a 50% of taking off a point, a 33% chance of chain reactioning

The FW manticore (found in IA1, on FW's site as a pdf here (http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/News/Downloads.html) is 145 points and gets 4 AA mounted S9 AP2 Ordnance shots (which arne't blasts so hit normally).

And of course the Necron pylon - the only AA mounted strength D weapon in the game. 3 shots, hit on 3's, ignore the cover save, auto penetrate and thanks to +1 for strength D will take off a structure point 66% of the time, and chain reaction for 50%

Edit- Also Necron Tesla weapons. Get one thats twinlinked to get the best chance of hitting. Get one hit, and you get 2 free!

[Strangleweb]

Swooping hawks cannot attack a flyer unless it is hovering.

Necron Pylon is already mentioned.

However - DrLove missed two obvious candidates for me...
Eldar Nightwings and Dark Eldar Ravens. They both have AA lances (Bright/Dark respectively)- excellent against thunderhawks even at range.

Also - Tau can fire seeker missiles at it if they get some Markerlight hits. Broadsides stand a good chance too, 3 broadsides with twin linked railguns get two hits on a flyer on average, and range is not normally an issue.

I'll do some mathhammer on it now...

[DrLove42]

Swooping hawks cannot attack a flyer unless it is hovering.



Theres a data sheet of Hawks and Bahroth that lets them assault fliers with their haywire grenades. You just have to pass a test or they get run over.

As for Nightwings/Ravens.

Against light fliers (AV 10-11) they're fine.

Against AV12, they suffer as all Lances do against AV 12. 2 shots, hitting on 3's, damaging on 4's, then a 4+ save gives only a 33% chance of doing any damage. Not impossible, but wouldn't bet on it. And the Cannons on the Nightwing can only glance on 6's, so have the same 33% of getting 1 hit. And the poison cannons on the DE can't do anything

Nightwings are best as light ATA, or ATG roles.

As a side note...i'm of the opinion no flier should be AV12 except for Superheavies. Making Valks and Ravens fliers for no extra cost is insanely good. Are you seriously suggesting the side armour of a Valkyrie is the same strength as the side armour of a Thunderhawk?

[Strangleweb]

Right - done a quick bit of mathhammer for you and here's the results for some popular AA units. Note this just gives you the mean number of glancing and penetrating hits and does not account for cover saves, AP1 or D weapons getting +1 etc etc...

It shows that Dr Love is right about the lances against AV12, but it also flags up some interesting options - Contemptor Mortis anyone?

+++ EDIT - Note this is against AV12 +++

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/7961670/aa.png

Also - careful with the Hydra - AFAIK it only ignores the cover save of skimmers and bikes, not flyers. I know flyers get the cover save in the same way as skimmers, but almost every ruling i've seen says that they move as skimmers, but still aren't skimmers, so the Hydra does not negate the save.

[Wolfshade]

And thus a new term was coined (or at least reminted)

Don't bring a Scatter Laser to a Pylon fight

[Root]

I've used a pair of Thunderbolts to first suppress and eventually cripple a Thunderhawk. I managed enough gun shaken and weapon destroyed results to prevent his D weapon from hurting me and eventually he chose to land to deploy the squads inside. My team quickly immobilized it and took off every gun except a heavy Bolter. We could have easily killed it but we purposely left it alive because it was acting as a massive roadblock for about 6000 points of approaching enemy reinforcements.

If I had to do it again, I'd shoot everything I had til I popped the D weapon and then ignore it. The effort to kill it isn't worth the damage it'll do in return IMO.

[Tynskel]

Thunderbolts are awesome.

Same with Land Speeder Tempests.

Another good choice is the Skyray.

[fuzzbuket]

i know this may be a terrible idea but i like to think out the box

how about a few (say 6+) eldar war walkers with twin scatterrlasers? beacuse most of these AA units are very pricey, a bunch of WW's could shoot enoght to get a few lucky shots and once they are done shoot at the infantry?

or if all else fails use a orbital strike on top of the flier or artillery? (hey it sorta makes sence and works well in supreme commander :P)



-fuzz

(edited due to my messed up keyboard)

[Denzark]

Fuzzy don't think you can target flyer with blast marker when flying. And it would be a different height to a ground target - can't hope for a lucky scatter.

@ Strangleweb thanks for the awesome work - your mathsbrain much superior to mine.

One thing - please confirm - are you talking Thunderbolt Heavy fighter - didn't think it had AA. Also Lightning interceptor with at least 4 pylons of heatseekers (which would be TL and normal BS) must feature quite highly.

The only reason I dropped in Vindicare is because, if BS 8 misses can't he get another roll to try and turn it into a hit - haven't got access to rule book so not sure if it applies.

Cheers all.

[DrLove42]

Thunderbolts have AA mounts on their autocannons I think

As for blasts against fliers, can only hit if they are AA mounted. And then you don't roll scatter, you just roll to hit. And still need 6's.

Blasts are no good against aircraft - which is wierd considering thats what Flak Cannons basically are...

[Nosmo75]

As a side note...i'm of the opinion no flier should be AV12 except for Superheavies. Making Valks and Ravens fliers for no extra cost is insanely good. Are you seriously suggesting the side armour of a Valkyrie is the same strength as the side armour of a Thunderhawk?

In my opinion, that shows that Thunderhawk armour is too low, not that Valkyrie armour is too high. Also, I had always assumed that the side armour on a Thunderhawk was higher than 12. =S

[Nosmo75]

Sorry, I double-posted for a second, there. But, I've edited this one into an apology. =)

[victoryd5]

Here is a great article on anti air: http://v5studio.blogspot.com/2013/03/the-best-anti-air-for-40ki.html

[Caitsidhe]

The best AA weapon, in my opinion, is the Imperial Guard (Forge World) Sabre Gun Platform. It has Skyfire and Interceptor. It is Artillery and thus has multiple wounds and a Toughness-7. You can have up to two crewman manning it. They are 40K ok and I can assure you that they DO the job.

[rtmaitreya]

Right - done a quick bit of mathhammer for you and here's the results for some popular AA units. Note this just gives you the mean number of glancing and penetrating hits and does not account for cover saves, AP1 or D weapons getting +1 etc etc...


Aaaand you win the internet today. Nice job.

[Denzark]

Good threadcromancy here. Bear in mind I asked this 5th ed, so the balance of power has massively changed. The question now is a bit wrong - most effective? Actually I think the best AA in the game is other air - based on its survivability. Can't be arsed to extrapolate what at the mo.

[Tynskel]

I disagree. The ground weapons turrets can fire when you enter the board. The surface anti-air turrets are a high priority target if you have a flyer in your army.

[Caitsidhe]

Good threadcromancy here. Bear in mind I asked this 5th ed, so the balance of power has massively changed. The question now is a bit wrong - most effective? Actually I think the best AA in the game is other air - based on its survivability. Can't be arsed to extrapolate what at the mo.

Depends on the best buy for your buck. The Sabre starts on the board and is great at shooting at other things too. :) I run a minimum of five of them as part of an allied IG detachment and they pay dividends. For about 600pts I get my Aegis w/Quad Gun, a Lord Kommisar to man it and bolster the single platoon behind it and bolster the 5-6 Twin-Linked Lascannon I field up there. Until the flyers arrive, I am plinking away with great effect on anything and everything on the board. I place them distinct of one another so that each of the guns must be a separate target and silenced in turn. They get the benefit of the Aegis themselves too.

If you are going to have effective AA you might as well have it able to kill other things. More to the point they all come with a free Spotlight which is invaluable in these days of regular night fighting.

[Maelstorm]

In it's debut in an Apocalypse game, a single shot from a Necron Gauss Pylon completely destroyed a Thunderhawk (Chain reaction) along with it's entire Terminator contents. Epic.

Follow-up in the next Apoc game, the Gauss Pylon shot down 5 Vendetta's in just 2 turns (3 D-Cannon shots per turn).

Frighteningly effective against aircraft. Also effective at keeping Titans at bay.

The whole reason I now put 3 Gauss Pylons on the table for Apoc.

[Denzark]

The sabres do sound good admittedly. But would be priority targets for turn 1 - if you had air wiaitng to come on. I like the survivability of air. Although I've not mathhammered the efficacy in the same way the nice man did with his table earlier.

[Caitsidhe]

The sabres do sound good admittedly. But would be priority targets for turn 1 - if you had air wiaitng to come on. I like the survivability of air. Although I've not mathhammered the efficacy in the same way the nice man did with his table earlier.

Well they aren't the priority target in my list. :) My tactical ideology is based on multiple high threat targets. In other words, I want to make every unit a pain and one that can't be ignored. Most of the firepower goes at my Daemon Prince to be honest. I take the Nurgle kind with the Black Mace and maximum psychic abilities. It has wings of course.

Even when they do try to kill my Sabres it takes MASSIVE firepower. I've yet to lose more than two a turn from shooting. Remember that they have a 3+ save for their Armor. A 4+ save from the Aegis if armor does't apply. They are Toughness-7 and have two wounds themselves. You can stick one of the crew forward of them as an ablative third wound. Just be sure you place then in a way that you get to use the Lord Kommissar's Leadership. Since I place each gun as its own unit, it means my opponent has to try and remove 5-6 of them with all the advantages going to me. For the most part, silencing ALL of my Sabres requires you get to them in melee. This rarely happens.