The Falkland Islands: A crash course on what isn't colonialism.

[eldargal]

I'm not usually one to start threads on political issues, and I normally ignore whatever idiocy spews forth from the mouth of some vapid Hollywood personality, but this I find particularly annoying (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/southamerica/falklandislands/9080473/Sean-Penn-accuses-Britain-of-colonialism-over-Falklands.html):


The world today is not going to tolerate any ludicrous and archaic commitment to colonialist ideology...And I hope that diplomats can establish true dialogue in order to solve the conflict as the world today cannot tolerate ridiculous demonstrations of colonialism

A few facts for Mr Penn:

70% of the Fakland Islands population (around 3000) are of British descent.
Over 90% of the populace want to remain part of Britain
The Falklands have been British territory since 1832, longer than Texas has been part of the USA.
86% of the Argentine population is of European descent, generally when Britain beats up a European country it isn't considered colonialism*.

So when you say the world won't tolerate archaic commitments to colonialist ideology, what you are in fact saying is that Britain should allow a foreign power to annex a part of its territory against the wishes of the inhabitants of said territory. Because forcibly annexing countries is totally democratic and not at all imperialist. Until the Falklanders wish to leave Britain, there is no need for dialogue on the sovereignty of the islands.

In other words, before spouting off on another countries foreign policy you may want to actually know what you are talking about.:rolleyes:


*It is considered the natural order of things, haw haw haw**.

**This is a Joke***.

***Not really.

[Psychosplodge]

Sean who?



Argentina: We want to talk about the Malvinas.

UK: They're called the Falklands. And No, not while the people want to be British.

[eldargal]

Quite, I'd heard the name before but for some reason I pictured Simon Pegg.:rolleyes: Any excuse for a rant though. Not to mention the views he expresses seem to be common amongst Foreigners and the less intelligent members of the British Left.

I think Mr Penn should do something useful and more fitting to his position, like funding a chain of South American themed Japanese restaurants.

[Psychosplodge]

Maybe he could look at the US occupation of Alaska (clearly a part of Canada),
the sovereignty of the pacific Sandwich Islands, or Puerto Rico?
Maybe the native Argentinians might like a say too?

Or maybe he enjoyed a free holiday for a bit of "acting"(here read this) while he he was there....

[DrLove42]

If you go to Sean Penns (btw I though he was dead.....) facebook page and Twitter account its just wall to wall abuse.

I have a friend whos partners is in the Navy. He said a few years ago, the British were actually digging trenches on the beachs of the Falklands, it got that close again

A war in the Falklands will be, from my point of view....hysterical. Shove that in the face of the government that just scrapped the Navy and the Air Force :P

[Aldramelech]

It would be quite amusing to watch the Argentines take on a Squadron of Typhoons with they're 1970s Air Force whilst they're Navy cowers in port again, afraid of HMS Torbay.

How stupid are these people?

[Necron2.0]

Not to mention the British claim to the island dates to 1764, whereas the supposed Argentine claim dates only to 1820, and is the result of nothing more than the mad ramblings of a washed up pirate that just happened to stumble onto the island.


Maybe he could look at the US occupation of Alaska (clearly a part of Canada)

As someone who was born and raised in Alaska, all I can say is ... we wish! (Actually, we want to secede from both the US and Canada, and take the Yukon Territory and British Columbia with us).

[Denzark]

Not to mention, look at the date we took the islands - 1832. When was Argentina pooed out of Satan's arse? Later than this. Laying claims on something that may have been a colony of a colony is a bit trite.

[Lord Azaghul]

As always, Mr Penn has reinforced my belief that entertainers should stay out of political issues.
With the exception of Bono - who is awesome. :D

[wittdooley]

Sean Penn and Tim Robbins are both fools that talk far too much. If I'm not mistaken, Penn is one of the celebs abusively lampooned in Team America: World Police.

Truth be told, if those "archaic" ideologies of imperialism still existed, we'd probably be better off.

And don't be too hard on Argentina. They are a fine exporter of beautiful women. Always remember the important things.

[eldargal]

I rather like Argentina, it is just the guvmint I have issues with. Yep Penn was lampooned in Team America and spectacularly failed to handle it, unlike some of the other actors who laughed it off. Bizarrely and perhaps uniquely the Daily Mail actually had a rather good article on him and his championing of dictators and less-than-nice government.

[Drunkencorgimaster]

If either Sean Penn or Tim Robbins said the sky was blue I wouldn't believe it.

[lattd]

Having been to Argentina i can say its a rather nice place as long as you don't mention that your English, i do like the fact the UN sort of pushed this out of discussion as quickly as possible.

[Denzark]

Having been to the Falkland Islands I can say it is a nice place where they simply want to be British, not belong to some tinpot second world dictatorship.

[eldargal]

So the Falkland Islands just had a referendum to see what percentage of the population wanted to remain British. The result 99.8% of voters want to remain British (http://uk.news.yahoo.com/falkland-islanders-vote-remain-british-014726845.html) with 92% turnout.

[Psychosplodge]

So the Falkland Islands just had a referendum to see what percentage of the population wanted to remain British. The result 99.8% of voters want to remain British (http://uk.news.yahoo.com/falkland-islanders-vote-remain-british-014726845.html) with 92% turnout.

That's unprecedented in modern turn outs in an actual democracy isn't it?

[Wolfshade]

You don't see that much of a one sided vote outside of zimbabwe.

But seriously it does emphasis that the Islanders have determined that they want to be British. End of.

[DrLove42]

The Argentines will argue they're not the native population and their opinions don't count.

Whch coming from a foreign colony on a continent full of Spaniards and Portugese is a bit rich.

But 90% turn out is a staggering attendance rate. I doubt the Scottish Referendum will be so well attended

[Wolfshade]

Well I think the SR will be better attended than the Commissioner Gorden elections.

Also what is wrong with this picture?

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/About/General/2010/2/24/1267044549463/A-man-burns-a-British-fla-001.jpg
A man burns a British flag in Buenos Aires as Latin American and Caribbean nations backed Argentina's claim of sovereignty to the Falkland Islands. Photograph: Natacha Pisarenko/Associated Press.

The flag is the wrong way round!

Maybe if they learnt some history they would realise their error of their way, after all contiued habbitation of a previously uninhabited land is apparently not fine, but displacing and killing thousands (millions?) of indeginious is...
I support the Mayan claim to south americas...

[Psychosplodge]

Well there is a difference....the Falklands never had a native population to "displace".

Are there any Mayans left following the south american program of ethnic cleansing?

[Wolfshade]

Are there any Mayans left following the south american program of ethnic cleansing?

I'm not sure if they any did survive the genocide...

[Psychosplodge]

I'm not sure if they any did survive the genocide...

Funny how that's overlooked...

[Wolfshade]

3 people voted No, more people abstained...

On a similiar note:

In Gibraltar 1967, 44 people wanted to be spanish, in 2002, 186 did.

[Psychosplodge]

I suspect they're the argentinian spouses of residents of the island?

Re: Gibraltar, is that an increase or decrease of the overall population as a % wanting to be spanish?

[Wolfshade]

Probably, the spoiled were those married to the argentine spouses ;)

Increase of 1% from 0.3 to 1.3.

[Psychosplodge]

I'm surprised I assumed the population would have grown quicker than that.

[Wolfshade]

The population (or voters) increased 48% between the two votes.

[eldargal]

Well there is a difference....the Falklands never had a native population to "displace".

Are there any Mayans left following the south american program of ethnic cleansing?
Yup, the Maya have a population in the low millions today.

It is interesting isn't it, the only people the British displaced were Spanish/European settlers yet we are accused of colonialism in supporting the democratic wishes of the Falkland Islands. Argentina displaces millions of natives and ethnically cleansed them right into the 20th century. Today only a tiny amount remain and they suffer considerably from discrimination.

[Psychosplodge]

Go do Docs listing by lowest rated on the bbc/news website...

[Wolfshade]

It is interesting isn't it, the only people the British displaced were Spanish/European settlers yet we are accused of colonialism in supporting the democratic wishes of the Falkland Islands. Argentina displaces millions of natives and ethnically cleansed them right into the 20th century. Today only a tiny amount remain and they suffer considerably from discrimination.

I thought that it was abandoned when it was inhabitet by British?

[Wolfshade]

My favourite comment was relating the Argentine President to Hitler for their expansion for more living room and resources...

[DrLove42]

Go do Docs listing by lowest rated on the bbc/news website...

Yep the anger and vitriol in the lowest ratings on the BBC article would make you think they'd voted to legalise murdering babies or declare all of Foreign Country suddenly British

[Psychosplodge]

What makes me sad is the muppets who agree with the argies. The laughable France/Spain treaty argument they use gives them as much right to the Falklands as it does to Cuba...

Clearly never experienced our apologist education system and how actual democracy works


964.
Rosa de Malvinas
4 Hours ago

Malvinas islands belonged to Argentina until 1833 when UK invaded them and killed the native population. At the same time UK was being expelled from Paraná river in the Battle of Vuelta de Obligado. British people have been brainwashed by a colonialist education. Now British occupants living in Malvinas have been forced to vote they want to be British. How sad...

[Wildeybeast]

I suspect they're the argentinian spouses of residents of the island?

Re: Gibraltar, is that an increase or decrease of the overall population as a % wanting to be spanish?

Could be they wanted independence rather than Argentinian rule, the question did not give that option. Besides, the argies want to deport everyone there so voting for them would be pointless.

[Psychosplodge]

They're already autonomous in everything except defence and foreign policy.

[Chronowraith]

I'm not usually one to start threads on political issues, and I normally ignore whatever idiocy spews forth from the mouth of some vapid Hollywood personality, but this I find particularly annoying (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/southamerica/falklandislands/9080473/Sean-Penn-accuses-Britain-of-colonialism-over-Falklands.html):



A few facts for Mr Penn:


I wouldn't take anything Sean Penn says seriously. He has a pretty screwed up idea of right/wrong. I mean we are talking about a guy who counted Hugo Chavez as a great friend while at the same time blasted other "colonial powers" for backing coups in Central and South America.

[DrLove42]

Oh god the new Pope is Argentinian.

Now the entire Catholic world is against the Falklands

[Wolfshade]

Oh god the new Pope is Argentinian.

Now the entire Catholic world is against the Falklands

Wouldn't be the first time that has happened, it didn't work out too well for them last time...

[Brakkart]

Actually the new Pope is no friend to the Argentine government and has been a fairly vocal critic of their failings, though mostly to do with social issues like poverty and the provision of healthcare.

[Wolfshade]

Well yeah, international posturing is often a good way to deflect attention from home affairs.

[eldargal]

Oh god the new Pope is Argentinian.

Now the entire Catholic world is against the Falklands

Just like the 16th through 18th centuries. Spoiler: we won.:p

I doubt this will make much difference, as Brakkart notes His Popeliness Francis I has been quite critical of the Argentine guvmint in the past, I don't see why he would fall for the nationalist nonsense that fuels the Falklands issue there.

[Wolfshade]

Although I do think the Holy Roman Empire has just a strong a claim on the Falklands as Argentina does.... :rolleyes:

[Wildeybeast]

Just like the 16th through 18th centuries. Spoiler: we won.:p

I doubt this will make much difference, as Brakkart notes His Popeliness Francis I has been quite critical of the Argentine guvmint in the past, I don't see why he would fall for the nationalist nonsense that fuels the Falklands issue there.

He's actually been pretty adamant that we nicked their islands (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/mar/14/pope-francis-argentina-falklands-dispute), but given the British government stopped giving a toss what the Pope said in the 1530's, I see no reason to be unduly worried by his election.

[Shotgun Justice]

I find the arguments about the Falklands curious, in that many people are unable to distinguish territorial claims from indigenous rights and the legalities surrounding implanted populations. I do not mean to imply some of these "many people" are on these boards, but since I do not speak or read Spanish I refer to those who comment / write about the issue in English language publications.

Essentially the permanent population of the islands are protected by their rights to their homes, livelihoods etc and to a degree by the rights of self-determination. However as no indigenous population existed (btw - is there a time-frame by which indigenous population is established i.e the point at which an implanted or immigrant group attain indigenous status?) neither GB nor Argentina has a claim on that basis, continuous occupation and administration will hold sway in a legal dispute. Argentine claims are severely weakened by the fractious nature of their emergent state in the early 19th century and the notions of nationality and territory that arise from such birth pangs. I suppose that this is why Argentina has rejected offers to take the dispute to the ICJ.

There is some legal validity to the Argentine claim, however, it would need to invoke both international law and precedents that are very much out of step with modern attitudes to territorial disputes. It would all hinge on whether the United Provinces of the Río de la Plata territorial claims could be extended in 1820 to the Falklands when Louis Vernet claimed the islands in their name. As there were 2 rival claims on the islands at this time from Great Britain and Spain the Río de la Plata claim is dubious at best, especially since the islands lie well out of the established international concept of territorial waters of the time. I do not believe that the islands were claimed in any legal declaration / establishment of Argentine territory.

[Psychosplodge]

Considering Argentina effectively gave up their claim in 1850...

*Breaking News*
Argentina lays claim to the Vatican City on the grounds "there is a temporary Argentine population".

[DrLove42]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-21835363

That didn't take long. The Prime Minister of argentina has been to the Vatican and asked the pope to intervene

So aksed him to start a dialogue. How about we ask the people what they want? Oh wait....

[Psychosplodge]

Well clearly him being an impartial individual with no previous opinion on the matter will help with that...

[Wildeybeast]

Damn, you just me beat to it. She does know that we care what the Pope says about as much as we care what she says right? And what exactly does she think this 'dialogue' will consist of when we refuse to discuss issues of sovereignty and they refuse to acknowledge the rights of the islanders? That's going to be a pretty short 'dialogue'. As for complaining about our militarization of the South Atlantic, there's a bloody good reason for that!

[Mr Mystery]

And nobody in Britain cared. Population wants to be British, and so they are.

[Wildeybeast]

And nobody in Britain cared. Population wants to be British, and so they are.

I think the Argentinians are still getting used to this democracy lark.

[Mr Mystery]

Well, lets help on this very thread!

Hands up who thinks Argentina are just being arseheads in this whole affair?

*hand is up*

[Psychosplodge]

*raises hand*

[Deadlift]

I think at some point the whole world is going to get fecked off with hearing them dribbling on about what is a redundant issue now.
* hand is raised *

[Brakkart]

*Raises my hand*

The thing that really gets me about this whole issue is Argentina's blatant hypocrisy. They accuse Britain of occupying the Falklands in order to have access to Oil/Gas reserves that are/might present in the Atlantic waters around the islands. Yet Argentina care nothing at all for the actual population of the islands (many of whose families have been living there since before Argentina as a nation actually existed!) and we are supposed to believe that they merely want the islands because of a very tenuous claim to them having been part of the original Spanish colony that became Argentina?

Yeah right, pull the other one. They want the oil and the money that comes with it (especially as their economy is up the creek). It is very interesting that the United States (supposed champion of democracy and freedom and such, with a voracious appetite for oil) has not come out in support of the rights of the Falkland Islands population after their resounding referendum result. At least on our watch the actual islanders will get a good chunk of the money from any oil found in their waters, with us taking a cut that covers the cost of the defence budget we spend on their behalf.

I have to agree with Wildey, it is a bit rich for Argentina to complain about us militarizing the islands. The only reason they have the garrison, air base and defences they have now is because Argentina bloody invaded them. Before that they had a 40 man unit there and a single patrol ship.

[Wolfshade]

Of course if they had oil reserves we could bomb them back to the middle ages as after all they must be hiding weapons of mass destruction.

[Fizzybubela]

*raises hand*

[Psychosplodge]

Of course if they had oil reserves we could bomb them back to the middle ages as after all they must be hiding weapons of mass destruction.

Well it's easier to do that in some places considering they're basicly still there...

[Wolfshade]

The Pope? How many divisions does he have?

I do find it interesting in the coverage that the Argie PM is quoted about what she says, but what his popiness says is not...

[Psychosplodge]

I wonder why?

[Wolfshade]

Maybe because POPE SAY NO?!

Or a better response would be "My kingdom is not of this earth"

[Psychosplodge]

Maybe because POPE SAY NO?!

Based on his previous Rhetoric, I can't believe that.

[eldargal]

Well we don't actually know for sure what his comments were, all I've been seeing have been 'he was reported as saying...' which is media talk for 'someone told us that sh** but there is no actual evidence'.

But really, he is pope now, he doesn't need to pander to petty nationalist issues to seem relevant to his flock. Not to mention he apparently doesn't like Kirchner much (or her policies at least) so probably won't be too inclined to appear to be being used by her for political gain.

[Wolfshade]

Well we don't actually know for sure what his comments were, all I've been seeing have been 'he was reported as saying...' which is media talk for 'someone told us that sh** but there is no actual evidence'.

But really, he is pope now, he doesn't need to pander to petty nationalist issues to seem relevant to his flock. Not to mention he apparently doesn't like Kirchner much (or her policies at least) so probably won't be too inclined to appear to be being used by her for political gain.

Exactly, my whole point was that while the Argie PMs views and what she said has been bantered all over the place what the Popiness said has not. Certainly his views from years ago have been highlighted, but I think it is quite a cheap move to try and hi-jack this PopeCon 2013 to push her own agenda.