Help against BA hideousity!

[Bedroom General]

Oh no. A good mate, who is the best player of our group is re tweaking his 2000pt BAs. He's going to be running 3 Blood talon dreads, Mephiston, as many ten man assault jumpers as he can fit, rhino full of DC, Baal Pred. not much else, maybe a Landspeeder.

I'm not looking forward to the dreads, I've seen one eat an entire ten man Tac squad in 1 round, just kept rolling til he killed them all, never looked like getting a 1. Horrifying when it goes off. Three of those things, DOA in my face and Mephiston!

My friend runs Mephiston attached to an assault squad, they all walk if he doesn't get wings. Is this legal incidentally? I have wondered, and can't see anywhere in the BA codex where it says it aint possible. Did I miss something?

Any Ideas? I am Playing Necrons atm, but could go Tau. What am I saying!

Anyone got experience against the S10 mincing machine that is the Blood Talon Dread? Cos it freaked me out against troops. A bit of good luck on the dice, which unfortunately my mate has in abundance, and you're away!

[energongoodie]

Mephiston is not an Independent character. He can not attach to the assault squad. Call him in on it. If he says he didn't recognise his mistake he's lying.

With all the gauss you'll have with the Necrons, you stand a pretty good chance of immobilising his dreadnoughts, rendering the Blood Talons useless.

Other than that, fire for effect and have fun.

[thecactusman17]

Blood Talons are S6, S7 for the Death Company on the charge. If your opponent is saying they are S10, pick up his own codex and smack him with it. Only Blood Fists (DCCWs) allow his dreads to be S10 in assault.

Also, Mephiston can't attach to anything. He is not an independent character. He must deploy and operate alone. However, models with jump packs may always choose to walk instead of using their packs.

Imhotek is going to do wonders for your list, as the high strength and low AP of any lightning bolts negates his FNP. With so many jumpers, be sure to take a Worldscape C'Tan and put all your models into area terrain, or place them so that he is forced to drop into it. That's going to hurt him badly, or force him to give you some breathing room. Shove a Lord with a Warscythe and Res Orb into each unit, and also a Cryptek with a Tremorstave. That will really hurt his ability to kill you with the Dreadnoughts, and places them in mortal danger when assaulting you.

So what do we have? Let's try this:

HQs 865
Imhotek the Stormlord
Overlord w/ Warscythe, Mindshackle Scarabs, Catacomb Command Barge

Court 1
4 Harbingers of Transmogrification
1 Harp of Dissonance (w/ Imhotek)

Court 2
4 Lords w/ Warscythes, Res Orbs

Elite: 265
C'tan Shard w/ Writhing Worldscape, Transdimensional Thunderbolt

Troops 863
7 Warriors w/ Ghost Ark
8 Warriors w/ Ghost Ark
8 Warriors w/ Ghost Ark
8 Warriors w/ Ghost ark


Tactical advice:
How do you play this?

This army blocks up one corner of the board surrounded by as many pieces of area terrain as possible. The infantry pile up in the center while the Barge and Arks form a defensive ring around them, offering a cover save and a critical wall that dropping Blood Angels and Drop pods cannot cross. Your objective is to pile this wall high with the carcasses of every vehicle available, friend and foe, so that your friend is forced to constantly take dangerous terrain tests every time he wants to move or assault, 1/3 of which he will fail. The remainder will be easy pickings for your units. The C'tan and the Barge should be on anti-vehicle duty, and if the Barge is shot out from under him do your best to get your Overlord into combat with Mephiston ASAP so that you can kill that crazy SOB.

You are taking a Blood Angels strength (highly mobile infantry) and turning it into a liability. This tactic should work well for you, but don't be surprised by heavy losses all the same. Just keep pushing forward like the intimidating wall of robotic death that you are.

Every turn, do your best to kill or immobilize one dreadnought and one infantry unit. In the case of Dreadnoughts, do your level best to remove their weapons. The Gauss Flayers on your Barges are excellent for this task.

[energongoodie]

Great advice thecactusman17 :) Makes me want to go have a game against a bunch of Blood Angels.

[Xenith]

I've seen one eat an entire ten man Tac squad in 1 round, just kept rolling til he killed them all, never looked like getting a 1. Horrifying when it goes off. Three of those things, DOA in my face and Mephiston!

Is he the best player in your group because you dont know the rules for BA, and neither does he?

The Bonus Blood Talon attacks are not automatic hits, so with WS5 vs MEQ, a one or two will be a miss, followed by a 2+ to wound T4, with reroll thanks to them being lightening claws.

Talons are S6.

Also, remember that Mephiston cannot DoA in as he does not have a jump pack. If he pulls this, call him on it. The Wings of Sanguinius rule counts as jump pack movement, but does not permit deepstrike. (Imagine Mephy jumping from a high altitude Thunderhawk, then having his wings nullified by a Farseer/hood...).

[AbusePuppy]

Talon Dreads aren't really any different from regular Dreads- they'll kill the squad a bit faster, but that's not always an advantage. As noted, they are only S6 (generally S7 on the charge thanks to Furious Charge) and thus do virtually nothing to vehicles. The Dreads should take several turns to arrive unless he uses Drop Pods to bring them in, so you'll have time before needing to deal with them; a mechanized list may be able to avoid them the whole game.

Mephiston is a monster in combat, but most big guns (Plasma, Melta, Lascannons, Lances, etc) can tear him down pretty quickly. He will often be left exposed after a charge, which is the best time to hit him. He is not an independent character and thus can always be targeted if you can see him, but due to his small size and infantry status he will usually have a cover save.

He is investing a huge number of points into the Death Co squad in a very vulnerable transport. Immobilize/wreck it and you've left a major part of his force stranded.

Tau should laugh his army right off the board- your Railguns can easily annihilate his Dreadnoughts and transports and Mephiston will die to Plasma Rifles. DoAing troops will cause some hazards, but counterfire from Plasma and Railguns should eliminate them quickly as well. Check any of the Tau tacticas/army lists/articles on 3++ for a general overview of the army.

Necrons will find Harbingers of Destruction invaluable against Mephy and his non-Dread vehicles; Furiosos, due to AV13, will probably need side/rear shots or Melta to bring down. Tesla Destructor shots on its AV12 flanks can cause some damage to the Dreads, so that may be a decent bet as well. Tomb Spyders will cause very bad times for non-Talon Dreads and Scarabs will potentially do a real number on either Mephy or Dreads (remember that Talons and Meph both autokill them due to T3) due to lowering their AV/taking away his armor save. DoAing Meltaguns will be one of your larger threats, but in most cases bringing them in close enough will effectively be suicide.

Basically, his army is very, very focused on getting into assault. Any kind of mechanized list will make things difficult for him and if you can simply apply good shooting, he will likely crumble before he can get any really critical assaults off.

[Bedroom General]

I really need to read that dex, I don't have it. He's a good player, I will iron out these wrinkles with him. He's just swapped from his Sisters in disgust, so he's still re doing the Blood Angels.

I read that bit that said two talons count as dccw or did I read talon instead of fist? That was during the game, cos I thought I'd heard somewhere that they were st 6. I couldn't find it.

Like I said, dont know the dex, and now I'm sure my mate has misinterpreted some stuff. Help me with references, page nos.
Specifically about where it says that Mephiston is not an IC and so can't join units.

[energongoodie]

It doesn't say he isn't an IC. The important point is it doesn't say he is.

pg 47 and 82, Mephiston, Lord of Death

Special Rules:
And they shall know no fear
Fleet
Psyker
Transfixing Gaze

[Thiazi]

Specifically about where it says that Mephiston is not an IC and so can't join units.

Only Independant characters can join units.

So the question you need to ask is where does it say Mephiston is an Independant character.

[woodenronin]

It says under Mephiston's special rules. It does not state that he is an independent character. Also on the GW faq.You use the base strength under the profile for blood talons. Also not an independent character Death Company Tycho. Which I do not understand.But who am I?

[woodenronin]

BTW. The best way I have seen Mephiston killed is by the Grey Knight mindstrike missles. I am not saying this is true. Just what I saw.

[Drakkan Vael]

The best Mephiston kill I've seen so far is by beeing mindshackled and killing himself

You could think about adding Orikan to the writhing worldscape C'tan, the Harbingers of Transmogrification and Imhotek and hope he goes first.

[Dorsai]

Best Mephiston death I have seen is when I was using my friends model against the old Deceiver. Couldn't keep the C'tan in melee, so resorted to shooting at it with plasma pistol. C'tan and Meph both only have a one wound left. Whoever can wound will win. Damn plasma pistol gets hot and Mephiston failed his armor save. The is both the silliest and best death I have heard of for Mephiston.

[flekkzo]

Best Mephiston death I have seen is when I was using my friends model against the old Deceiver. Couldn't keep the C'tan in melee, so resorted to shooting at it with plasma pistol. C'tan and Meph both only have a one wound left. Whoever can wound will win. Damn plasma pistol gets hot and Mephiston failed his armor save. The is both the silliest and best death I have heard of for Mephiston.

My Lysander regularly takes wounds from vehicles exploding next to him. Just saying :)

[Sinistermind]

also my hive tyrant with 1 wounds perils trying to leech :/

[DarkLink]

It doesn't say he isn't an IC. The important point is it doesn't say he is.


Exactly.

Never, ever ask "where does it say I can't". That is the most misleading question you can ask about rules. If you hear your opponent saying it, ignore it, and if you catch yourself saying it smack yourself.

The only question you should ever ask is, "where does it say I can".

[Kawauso]

Best Mephiston death I have seen is when I was using my friends model against the old Deceiver. Couldn't keep the C'tan in melee, so resorted to shooting at it with plasma pistol. C'tan and Meph both only have a one wound left. Whoever can wound will win. Damn plasma pistol gets hot and Mephiston failed his armor save. The is both the silliest and best death I have heard of for Mephiston.

That's hilarious.

The old Deceiver was actually pretty fun to use, if crazy expensive in an overcosted army with Phase Out.

[Bedroom General]

Thanks a million for all the help.

Talked to my mate about it. He's on night shift atm so he hasn't been playing much. He'd heard/read up about the Blood talons' strength, so that was ok. The Mephiston thing took a bit of the wind out of his sails once he realised about the lack of Independant character status.

I know him well though, so once he uses Mephiston like a mini daemon prince he'll be happy with the result.
We both missed the importance of the independant character rule being missing.

Thanks again!

[pathwinder14]

If you get a weapon destroyed on a Dread, remove a blood talon. He no longer get's extra attacks for unsaved wounds if one of them is gone. It has to be wielding a pair of them.

Best MEp death...Dante, Sang Guard, and Sang Priest packing Infernus pistols. DOA, Precision DeepStrike, shoot Meph. Meph dies.

[Defenestratus]

One time in apocalypse I charged Meph into close combat with a greater brass scorpion expecting to do some damage to it. I rolled boxcars for sword of sang and thus couldn't do squat to it. My opponent, seizing on the opportunity, decided to do a stomp attack to try and str D him. To do so, he needed to roll a six on one dice, which he did, and Mephiston got squished.

[Vanchet]

Mindshackle Scarabs and Warsycthes-all there is to Mephiston-in terms of the Dreads, simple, Crypteks with Abbysal staffs, Triarch stalkers, simply your big S8 guns and if you take Nemesor (or the other guy can't recall) Any Furious charge they may get is gone, so lets see assault marines hit lychguard with no S5 attacks

Will give a high five is mephiston slaps himself with mindshackles then get hack to death by the lord

[LittleSilverGuys]

Question for you: How is he getting those Dreds into play? I play BA, and have used stormravens and droppods before, but they can not DOA. If they are droppodding, then you atr least have a turn to shoot them before they can assault, and if he is running three stormravens that is a lot of points. Just curious, because if they are walking on their own, they are fairly easy to avoid.