Feedback for custom chapter

[Malanthar]

Hey guys and ladies, I've been working on a new chapter for the Space Marines and I was wondering if you could give me some feed back.

Cheers Malanthar.



Chapter Name: Knights of the Black Rose
Chapter Colours: Black and grey
Chapter Symbol: Black rose on iron grey background
Founding Chapter: Unknown
Founding: Unknown
Oldest Records of Chapter: 666M36 held by Grey Knights. Records state that a squad of sword wielding marines defeated three Bloodletters that were attempting to finish off a fallen Grey Knight.
Chapter Master: Kael son of Dorn
Chapter Homeworld: Raehael
Fortress Monastary: Daeonhyr
Specailty: Drop Pod assaults, Urban Warfare and Daemon Hunting
Battle Cry: By the Hammer stand or die.
Estimated Strength: 1500

The Knights of the Black Rose are led by two councils, the Rose Council made up of the best marines and the Thorn Council made up of the oldest and strongest Psykers. The Rose Council decides where the companies go while the Thorn Council decides where the Paladins (Librarians and Chaplains rolled into one) go and maintain the archives.

Veteran Compainy
Lady's Guard - 1st Company (Most experienced Marines in chapter, drawn from Specialist and Battle Companies)

Specialist Companies
Knight Paladins - 2nd Company (Similar to Grey Knights)
Knight Templars - 3rd Company (Teleporter Assault squads)

Battle Companies
Battle Brothers - 5th Company (Close combat)
Knights - 6th Company (Power Swords and Pistols)
Templars - 7th Company (Assault squads)

Reserve Companies
Battle Brothers - 8th Company (Light vehicles)
Tactical Marines- 9th Company (Codex standard Tactical Marines)
Devastator Marines - 10th Company (Joint) (Codex standard Devastator Marines)
Assault Marines - 10th Company (Joint) (Codex standard Assault Marines)
Squires - 11th Company (close combat scouts led by Knight)

Scout Companies
Initiates - 12th Company (Codex standard Initiates)
Umbra Bellum - 13th Company (exclusively uses Sniper Rifles)

[Charistoph]

It's a little large for a chapter. It's best not to include the numbers for things like that, after all the Inquisition gets nervous about large Space marine groups. Just hint that they seem able to quickly recover from losses and engage in more conflicts than a normal chapter handles.

Are they supposed to be a Grey Knights substitution? Just don't have them be a successor, it's up to your local group whether they will swallow that concept, but online, it's opening yourself up for abuse. Grey Knights are technically the only chapter that operates that way, so it can be a little shaky story wise.

[phoenix01]

Black Templar players may give you some grief regarding your choice of names for your units. For example, a scout is a neophyte, rather than an initiate (a full marine), and that your chapter master is the "son of Dorn". In fact, a lot of this seems to be very similar to the Black Templars, from the larger size of the chapter to the non-codex configuration to the whole "knight' thing. Are you using their codex?

Actually, saying your chapter is a spin-off of the Black Templars that developed psychic powers might be interesting, but keep in mind that after the disappointment from not having a new codex in the pipeline, they might go all crusade on you.:D

BTW what about your fourth company?

[Malanthar]

Charistoph
The large number of troops is because there is a huge number of scout type units and the two specialist companies.
I based the knights paladin company on the Grey Knights because the area where the chapter rules is cut off from the rest of the Imperium quite often with large numbers of daemon incursions and cults, the Inquisition has had multiple investigations into the chapter as welll.
And people can abuse me all they like but if a group of Grey Knights goes up against my Knights Paladin the Grey Knights will win easily.

phoenix01
I wanted to base my chapter on Europon Knightly orders and i'm not using the Black Templars codex, though that may work for a few of the companies.
I like the idea of Black Templars spin-off that have developed Psyker powers, though due to the strength of the hatred the Black Templars have may not allow that.
He is the son of Dorn, not Rogal Dorn just a guy named Dorn.
I'm not sure what happend to the fourth company, i figured that with all the missing records i could make it a mistery.

Thanks for you feed back guys keep it coming

[woodenronin]

I like the concept. Does the chapter have acess to a lot of land speeder storms? That is the best way for scouts to charge.

[Malanthar]

woodenronin
The Scout Companies will but the Squires won't because they are being led by a Knight in full power armour.

[Charistoph]

Charistoph
The large number of troops is because there is a huge number of scout type units and the two specialist companies.
I based the knights paladin company on the Grey Knights because the area where the chapter rules is cut off from the rest of the Imperium quite often with large numbers of daemon incursions and cults, the Inquisition has had multiple investigations into the chapter as welll.
And people can abuse me all they like but if a group of Grey Knights goes up against my Knights Paladin the Grey Knights will win easily.

Interestingly enough, the "1000 Space Marine" myth actually doesn't include the Scout Companies in their numbers, as they are not full Battle Brothers. So when you say 1500 Marines, we're usually talking about all the PA and TDA marines that are in the Chapter, and that's why it seems overly large. Unless your Chapter is so spread out that they never see each other as a complete chapter, it will get noticed and attract undesired (if possibly unnecessary) attention from the Inquisition.

Black Templar can get away with it because a) the chapter is never together in sufficient numbers, and b) they are a GW chapter and it's their Intellectual Property.

So, I'm just recommending that you list it as: "able to quickly recover from losses and engage in more conflicts than a normal chapter handles" so it just winks at the 1000 SM Myth as you go a little beyond it. The only reason to do otherwise is that you plan on building the entire 1500 Marines and Scouts in reality, but even then, you could still get away with it without actually specifying a number in written fluff.

[Kawauso]

Black Templar can get away with it because a) the chapter is never together in sufficient numbers, and b) they are a GW chapter and it's their Intellectual Property.



I think that's a bit of a cynical look at that aspect of the fluff.

The Imperium is full of hypocrisy and contradictions, and the Black Templars are not the only chapter that deviates from the number of 'allowed' Marines in a chapter.

There's one chapter in the vanilla codex (I forget which one - if I can recall it I'll say so) that I think is said to have twice as many scouts as most other chapters, because of the high rate of attrition on its marines.

The Space Wolves are another prime example of a chapter that disregards the dictates of the Codex Astartes, particularly with regard to number of active members. Each Great Company operates with as many marines as it needs, and a number of them consist of several hundred wolves. That, and they have 12 companies, not 10.

It's not that the Inquisition doesn't care when violations to law occur like this - it also has a lot to do with whether or not they are actually capable of acting on it. In the case of BT, the chapter never stays put and is never together in force, so persecuting them is difficult to begin with and even if accusations could be brought forward, the evidence as to their crimes would be circumstantial at best.

In the case of the SW (and the BT as well), the chapter has not only proven to be fiercely loyal in the face of accusations of heresy, but they are also much too strong for the Inquisition to really do all that much short of wage a full-on campaign against them - which isn't something the Inquisition really fancies doing if it can avoid it. In the case of both, the Inquisition is mostly content to just keep them at arm's length and watch them carefully, happy to be suspicious of them without the need to actually resort to fighting, which would be very costly for everyone involved and the Imperium at large.

All this to say there are a number of examples of chapters which violate various parts of Codex law, including the dictates as to the number of marines a chapter can have. Seems perfectly within the fluff to have this occur with a custom chapter, particularly when there are decent explanations involved. :)

[Malanthar]

Charistoph
In that case it probably is only 1200 Marines and a few hundred scouts.
While most of the chapter is stationed on the Homeworld there are a few out posts that are constantly manned as well.

Kawauso
Cheers mate.
The chapter, due to tradition and past disagreements, tries to avoid most other chapters and the Inquisition as much as it possibly can.

[Charistoph]

I'm basically presenting the reasonably recommended "rules" of DIY (http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?showtopic=132379) that B&C put up.

The Do's:

Rule Number One: Do be original as possible
Rule Number Two: Be prepared to accept criticism on your ideas, and to revise your IA accordingly.

Suggestions for creating a better Chapter

Do have a definite theme for your DIY chapter, and follow it through
Do read as much background material as you can
Do specific research for your chapter
Do have a rough idea of your chapter first
Do keep it simple
Do remember that ambiguity in the right place can be a good thing
Do make them heroic but still believable
Do use a GW chapter if you want


The Don'ts:

Don’t claim your chapter is founded using traitor gene-seed
Don’t use Space Wolf gene-seed for your chapter
Don’t tamper or mix gene-seeds
Don’t have your chapter cure the Curse of Sanguinius
Don’t claim your chapter is one of the missing legions
Don’t claim your chapter is from a traitor legion
Don’t claim your chapter is part of the second founding
Don’t have your chapter formed from a forgotten company
Don’t claim your chapter is created whole from another chapter
Don’t claim your chapter was created by a Primarch in secret
Don’t claim your chapter was created by an unknown twenty-first Primarch
Don’t have your chapter fulfil one of the roles of another Imperial organisation
Don’t have your chapter founded by anyone else bar the High Lords of Terra
Don’t claim your marines are female
Don’t claim your marines are nice


Clichés and Lazy Plot Devices

The Rogue Inquisitor Deus Ex Machina
Don’t get your chapter lost in the warp
Don’t claim your chapter was central to any of the major campaigns
Don’t mistake codex deviations and GW precedents for originality and character
The most important thing to remember is that in the end, it's just a game. They're your models, you paid for them, you can do what you like, just as long as you have fun!


While the number of Space Marines in the chapter isn't listed, it's just better to wave at it rather than bringing it to attention as a matter of good taste. The only time this is actually going to be of use is if you actually plan on modelling the entire chapter, at which point, it's Apocalypse, so who freakin' cares.

[woodenronin]

Why not a second founding chapter? And why not created from another chapter. 60% of the marine chapters are from the Ultramarine gene-seed.Also the second founding is when the legions were broken into chapters.

[Charistoph]

They answer it better in the link. Don'ts to DIY (http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?showtopic=132379&st=0&p=1521251&#entry1521251)




Why not a second founding chapter?
GW has the second founding locked, bar the missing seven Ultramarine successors which have never been named. Whilst it has been known for Black Library to crowbar a chapter into the second founding, it doesn’t mean it’s a good idea which should be repeated.




And why not created from another chapter.
This happened once, and that was the second founding when the legions were split. Having a chapter build up to a number of marines large enough to split into two chapters isn’t going to happen. Having a cadre of veterans train a new chapter is fine.

[Malanthar]

Charistoph
I shall definately keep your warnings in mind, thank you very much.
There is another thing that may also be important and that is WHERE the chapter is based.
The Knights of the Black Rose are based to the galactic North East, effectivly in that empty part of space northish of the Eastern sector of the galaxy.

[Drunkencorgimaster]

The most important thing to remember is that in the end, it's just a game. They're your models, you paid for them, you can do what you like, just as long as you have fun!
[/LIST]


I believe this contradicts most of your "guidelines."

[Charistoph]

I believe this contradicts most of your "guidelines."

To a point, but there is a question of style. If you're going to go through all the trouble of creating the myth behind the models, it's best to do it right. It has little to do with the building and painting of the models directly.

Besides, it will probably change with the next Space Marine codex or two anyway.

[tdogp]

I think it's ok. It's your stuff, so you can do with it as you please. If you wanted to make them a successor of the GK, there is some precedent for that with the Exorcists

[Malanthar]

@tdogp
thanks mate, not sure a GK successor would be a good idea though.