Mechanized IG now viable AND NOW CHEESE?!

[George Labour]

WARNING: LONG

Okay a bit of backstory. Many years ago I was only a casual 40k player with the starter set of marines and orks as I far preferred Fantasy or that era's version of Epic 40k. But eventually GW came out with Codex Armageddon, and I was hooked. THe Steel legion with their mechanized blitzkrieg style of fighting, awesome models, and acess to lots of treads finally drew me in and I began slowly building up a mechanized IG list over the next four years. AS time went on I drifted in and out of 40k, always adding bits and pieces to my IG as funds (and other army splurges) permitted eventually giving me 15 leman russ tanks, 10 chimera, 2 basilisks, and about 14 sentinels. I also got my hands on over 200 vostroyan and nearly as many Steel legion, many of which were purchased when GW wasn't offereing them anymore.

Now I learned in 4th edition my mechanized force just didn't work. THe Tau, CSM and Eldart just obliterated my expensive chimeras and I didn't have the men to hold objectives. This forced me to finally go tothe old wall of guns style army, and made my comical loss record slow down a tad.

Fast forward to the new codex. I threw together a mechanized list for an escalation league due to the fact I couldn't use russes in it yet, and also knew I'd have to take objectives to do more than draw in 1/3 of my games. To my surprise I began obliterating the Tau opponents. Even the best player in our store gave up after one turn of shooting when my vendettas and massed ML fire butchered his crisis teams. Ater another eight games with only one loss to a big hitter Chaos list I've found that the style of IG I finally got into the game for, can take names in a big way. But there lies the problem.

Now I see tourney level uber lists emphasizing things like elite guards and chimeras, and some of my fellow players have expressed dismay at facing down my chimera/hydra/vendetta combos even though I only have been using standard infantry platoons.

So, I'm both overjoyed, annoyed, and a bit uncertain. I like that I can finally do a steel legion list right, but I'm a bit conscerned I'll get a rep as a power gamer now that it seems to be the "hammer of the month' build. Which is where the annoyed part comes in, I've waited nearly a decade to do guard this way and have it be effective, and now it seems to be to good for friendly games.

So my choices are to dumb it down by taking some off the wall choices like Rough Riders (Good excuse to make a savlar platoon), or doing some less effective lists like the static Carapace veteran gunline. Or, just say meh and enjoy having an excuse to throw my legionaries out the backs of chimeras once more.

Anyone else ever had this problem with their armies or playstyle? Or, any advice here?

[Exitus Acta Probat]

This actually jumped up and bit me with almost ALL my imperial armies since 5e.

I stuck with tanks, Land raiders/Rhinos/Chimeras etc...(even have a FW Valk and Vulture). I also always liked melta, excepting in my CSM armies (I remember the old 2e dexes, where CSM's had nastier..but more dangerous...plasma..just felt right).
Lately, I've been accused of 'net'listing or spamming...turns out I'm just using what I've loved for quite a long time, and was getting my arse handed to me for continuing to use in 4e.

In an escalation league, yeah...take the hit and tone it down. There are a few 'buds' that don't talk to me as much now, because of the last league...but most of them were just busting my chops...when I added to my airforce and converted early banewolves/manticores/hydra/devil dogs.
Meh, I moved...doesn't matter anymore! ;)

In tourney, take advantage of your long term investment and availability though. Eat the 'net'list comments, know you've been doing it longer than some of them had hair on their...well...and shove their '9 oblit' or 'fatecrusher' lists up their niggly little bums! :D

[Dazz]

Honestly, ignore them.

I have been playing with my Imperial Guard for almost 10 years and have had a very high win ratio in each edition since 3rd thanks to using the same core and adding what I needed to pull a win. Overtime people came to know me as the IG freak. In my local club of about 100 people there was me, and 2 others who had IG. One was only a tournament player and had a Krieg army for the looks. The other was a Space Marine player who started guard but switched. Then the new codex came along. Both those people started using their armies with all the new toys and about 10 more players started IG armies. Lately some members(mostly new)have been thinking I should not play the flavour of the month army and get a true army. They find it hard to fathom that people like you and I have stuck with our armies for years and years and hell even played them too, just they never noticed because they weren't spammed on the interwebs.

Thankfully for my local club the new SW codex has about 15 people interested(8 of which just started IG)so I think soon people will be off our backs and onto the next. The band wagon effect exists. And while it breathes life into our armies and gives us a few new dedicated members it in reality only annoys us for 3-6 months. I feel sorry for the Wolf lovers of old who will soon be getting this treatment. The truth however is it always happens and will continue to.

So as I said ignore it and move on. In a month you will be forgotten and the Space Wolves will be the new "cheese" and the rumours of the next army will be even further cheese. Just look at Orks, finally they can play in peace for the most part now.

[SandWyrm]

Anyone else ever had this problem with their armies or playstyle? Or, any advice here?

It's only a problem if you're the sole player in your area running mech. In my region, all the best players are going mech too, so I only occasionally get flak from "creative" gun-liners that claim I got my list(s) from the internet (I didn't). Funnily enough, since I run a pure 2nd-Ed Tallarn force, all the tanks fit my fluff better than my old infantry gunline did. :)

If I'm facing a newbie or someone who's freaked about my force I'll go "easy" on them by not using reserves, and by walking my troops in behind their Chimeras. If you're also nice enough to give target priority advice or help with deployment, it goes a long way towards making their loss more of a fun lesson and less of a soul-crushing pwning. You could also bring along some foot troops to swap out for your Hydras or a couple of Chimeltas, so that your force seems more reasonable to a soft-core player if you end up playing one.

[Chumbalaya]

They were so happy to stomp all over you before, but when the tables are turned they take their ball and go home.

No class, play what you like and hope they man up.

[George Labour]

OH no it wasn't that they roflstomped me with the most powerful list they could get. It was a combination of luck, my desire to play fluffy over stabby, and some little tiny chessex dice that had a 15 out of 20 ratio of rolling 3 or less. My tactics and ideas were sound, especially in the last few months leading to the new codex, but I either made some dumb doctrine choices, or my dice rolls absolutely were not there. The closest I got to a power gamer was our sole DE player, and that wasn't entirely his fault.

I have lost games, but when I've gone with mech IG with the 5th edition missions I seem to steamroller Tau (I did an annihilation game that ended something like 6 to 2 ), and orks. Only force making me work for it right now is Chaos marines with a all fearless list. And I did most of it without reading up on army lists others do. That may change when broadsides show up this week though. :p

Anyways, I was just wondering if these guilty feelings were something others have had to deal with when their style of play turns from "kew but inefficient" to "OMG that rocks"

Oh, and I did come up with one solution to help out. I've begun setting up the field in a way to minimize some of my army's advantages. Mostly this means some handy ruins and walls to cut down on fire lanes though a abundance of cover saves is handy when the plasma cannon sentinels(another unit I wanted for years. XD) roll out.

[Chumbalaya]

If anything, you should keep on trucking to help your friends figure out what is lacking in their armies or their play and how they can improve it. Mech IG are tough, but a well run Tau list can cause them all sorts of pain. Don't gimp yourself either, nobody learns that way.

[RocketRollRebel]

If anything, you should keep on trucking to help your friends figure out what is lacking in their armies or their play and how they can improve it. Mech IG are tough, but a well run Tau list can cause them all sorts of pain. Don't gimp yourself either, nobody learns that way.

I hear you. I rarely play vs tau but rail guns can really get irritating...

Anyway I say do worry about it. It fits the fluff of your army very well anyway. I however, have shamelessly changed the composition of my IG army over the past 4 years. It started out as a plasma spam gunline with basilisks, to a inf/mech mix in 5th, to a pure mech/vet killing machine with the advent of the new codex.

May the Emperor guide your flashlights into the eyes of the heretics brother!

[brother drakist]

Keep on playing with what you like. If people have issues with it tell them it's your army, you spent your $$ building it but if they have an issue with it they are welcome to buy you some new units. In addition to all this you are playing Steel Legion the way they were meant to be played. Who can fault you for that.

[Lord Azaghul]

I can see why people think its cheese, but its not that hard to deal with. PLatoon spam guard can kill mech!
Me personally. I love the platoon system and I love my hw teams - mortars are a blast (bad pun), and the orders are quite useful!

I like the mixed forces, coupla vets, couple a chimera - always take a penal legion or two.
I love my ratlings - cheap and very effective.
I only take 4 vehicles in my heavy, battle cannon, demolisher and squadron 2 basilisks - at pretty much any point level

[George Labour]

Actually I fought one of the other IG players last week with his all infantry force. Let's just say it was bloody for him, and we both learned of the power of hull mounted heavy flamers on chimera.

Though I do remember the first time I played him and his three hellhounds and stormtrooper spam wiped my vostroyans out in two turns. So, karma I guess.

Might be a good idea to show you guys what I'm currently fielding at this stage. Don't have my books with me so excuse any small errors. Also realize I'm only allowed one HQ OR a Armor 14 vehicle at this point.

IG Escalation Mech list: 1750 points

HQ:

1 company command squad with 1 regimental advisor (Ordnance if orks or player who never uses reserves, Fleet if I face Tau and marines), 4 sniper rifles.

TROOPS:

1st Infantry platoon with

1 PCS w/4 meltaguns and officer with no upgrades

1 Infantry squad with plasma gun in a chimera

1 Infantr squad with plasma gun in a chimera

1 infantry squad with Grenade launcher in a chimera

2nd infantry platoon

1 PCS w/4 meltaguns and officer with powerfist (The model has one so I take it) in a chimera

1 Infantry Squad with plasma gun in chimera

1 infantry squad with grenade launcher in chimera

1 Veteran squad with three plasma guns, and demolitionists upgrade (These are my SL models so I use the plasma as I haven't converted any with melta or flamers)

1 Vendetta or Valkyrie (Magnetized the weapons so I can switch depending on what I play though I usually stick with the las cannons)

1 Vendetta or Valkriye (One PCS and the veterans ride in the two valks)

3 armored sentinels with autocannons (some of my oldest IG models as the backwards legs on two of them will attest ^^)

1 Hydra (THe fluff says mechanized formations often have AA, and in apoc one of our Tau players has a sizeable air force)

1 Hydra

1 Basilisk


I think that's my list. I've got a reason for everything to be there, and all the models are WYSIWYG for the most part. It's also all painted to tournament standards, not anything uber awesome but I do get oos and ahs from it.

So, to power gamery you think or am I hitting a good combo of fluff to killey?

[Lord Azaghul]

at 1750 is a lot of fire power, and a lot of 12 armour, but you've got 2 platoons, no russes, and no hw teams. Your also not terribly high on large blast (probably on a valk though) as least with high S. As with all guard you just have alot on the table - and it looks very intimidating - especially since you can take loads of casualties and keep on coming!

[Chumbalaya]

Eh, it's got plenty of armor, but nothing really OTT. Lots of BS3 plasma guns and 1 POS ordnance weapon shouldn't have people worried.

[EmperorEternalXIX]

I don't really have that much of a problem with it, I just dislike the power level discrepancy. I feel like the Guard codex definitely "feels" right now (though all the guys griping about the old one always seemed like BS'ers to me, that codex was still pretty useful even after 5th came). I just don't like how many of the other codex releases feel wrong (like Chaos or the SM dex). They are still usable and competitive to a degree, but when I use my Space Marine army, I don't feel very much like a Space Marine army. I have to hide a lot, and my most often-contemplated decisions are retreat and collateral damage. I often don't use my full capacity in any way because so many of the units have non-complimentary options. An "all-comers" list that needs no modification is a pipe dream in that book, too.

The only thing in the SM dex that feels like it's fluff describes, are those awesome THSS terminators that absorb all of those bullets. That is the only time I feel like a Space Marine army, so to speak.

So really my point is, I think most of the problem with the guard codex isn't the guard codex itself -- it is the other, less "accurate" codex releases.

With the advent of the Wolves, however, it looks like GW is catching on to the game.

[Xas]

wow, jsut wow.

people are complaining about THAT list? seriously?

thats nothing compared to what IG CAN do if you want to really pwn someone.


carrying that much costy plasamguns and meltas on bs3 modells is a nice way to "waste" points. and the heavies could be something mroe killy as well. the only thing qulifying for the <powerfull> tag is the twin-detta but thats only a marginal part of the list.


so let them cry on and tell them to get some weapons with strenght higher than 6. trying to otushoot guard with MEQ isnt a good idea either. sorry mate but you have picked yourself a big load of incompetents for game-partners if they whine about half a dozen chimearas.

[George Labour]

wow, jsut wow.

people are complaining about THAT list? seriously?

thats nothing compared to what IG CAN do if you want to really pwn someone.


carrying that much costy plasamguns and meltas on bs3 modells is a nice way to "waste" points. and the heavies could be something mroe killy as well. the only thing qulifying for the <powerfull> tag is the twin-detta but thats only a marginal part of the list.


so let them cry on and tell them to get some weapons with strenght higher than 6. trying to otushoot guard with MEQ isnt a good idea either. sorry mate but you have picked yourself a big load of incompetents for game-partners if they whine about half a dozen chimearas.

You got me all wrong man my friends aren't the one complaining. I'm The one fretting over it all. Having been the whipping boy of the store I'd come to almost enjoy my status as that guy who loses a lot, but is fun to play with. Now it seems as if I'm come 180 around and have only lost one game in the last eleven.

So I'm the one saying I may be to overpowered. Most of the rest are just having a good laugh at how ironic it is, but I'm worried it may give me a rep if I win to much now that my favored style is so viable, and I'm worried that if I keep with it I will be a power gamer. No one but my self is accusing me of anything. :)

I know it's a silly thing to some. But I'm an old role player too, which lends me a certain sense of fellowship over competitiveness and an eye to trieing not to power game at the expense of others.

[Nabterayl]

I don't really have that much of a problem with it, I just dislike the power level discrepancy. I feel like the Guard codex definitely "feels" right now (though all the guys griping about the old one always seemed like BS'ers to me, that codex was still pretty useful even after 5th came). I just don't like how many of the other codex releases feel wrong (like Chaos or the SM dex). They are still usable and competitive to a degree, but when I use my Space Marine army, I don't feel very much like a Space Marine army. I have to hide a lot, and my most often-contemplated decisions are retreat and collateral damage. I often don't use my full capacity in any way because so many of the units have non-complimentary options. An "all-comers" list that needs no modification is a pipe dream in that book, too.

The only thing in the SM dex that feels like it's fluff describes, are those awesome THSS terminators that absorb all of those bullets. That is the only time I feel like a Space Marine army, so to speak.

So really my point is, I think most of the problem with the guard codex isn't the guard codex itself -- it is the other, less "accurate" codex releases.

With the advent of the Wolves, however, it looks like GW is catching on to the game.

I actually like the SM dex (I feel like it treats space marines as special forces plus instead of implacable super-soldiers, and I think the former is ultimately more true to the fluff, at least for codex chapters), but otherwise I agree. The Guard codex feels like a Guard codex, and you should feel free to run your army accordingly. And if your opponents are all having a laugh about it, it sounds likely they can tell the difference between "I'm playing this Guard list because it feels like a Guard list and I like it" and "I'm playing this Guard list because I hate you all and I'm doing my best to ruin your day."

[SandWyrm]

Eh, it's got plenty of armor, but nothing really OTT. Lots of BS3 plasma guns and 1 POS ordnance weapon shouldn't have people worried.

Got to agree. A power-list this is not. It's simply taking advantage of your opponent's lag in beefing up their Anti-Tank.

3 Vet Meltas in a Chimera with a Hull Heavy Flamer is the power unit right now.

[SandWyrm]

I know it's a silly thing to some. But I'm an old role player too, which lends me a certain sense of fellowship over competitiveness and an eye to trieing not to power game at the expense of others.

Eh... Having played this army for over a decade and having been on the receiving end of the Ork and Marine codexes when they came out, I say... ABOUT TIME THE GUARD WERE COMPETITIVE!!!

I mean really, we went from an army that had to be played absolutely perfectly to win, to a force that can now tolerate a few mistakes along the way... just like every other 5th Ed codex. Guard is pretty fun now instead of being constantly frustrating.

I personally run a very tight, competitive list. And the good players in my area love it. They've gone from playing the same army all year to having to step up and improve their lists/tactics to counter me. And they're doing that. If the people you play with can't be bothered to compete, then I'd say find another store/group to play with. I'll step it down a notch or two if I'm training a newb. But I don't do this hobby to cater to newbs all the time. I expect to be challenged.

[hereticus]

No way any half competent Tau commander should be getting owned by that list. Any TAC list should contain a number of anti-AV12 options to deal with rhinos, chimeras and the like and the Tau do it better than most and with more mobility. They just need to adjust. I can understand if you catch out the first person you play in the league, but everyone that follows should have an idea of what they are up against and plan accordingly. If they don't thats thier problem, not yours.

Enjoy your victories now while you get them. At some point, someone in that group is actually going to get smart and adjust.

[George Labour]

Well we'll find out today or tomorrow. Now that the esclation rules allow brodsides and or hammerheads for the Tau I'll likely not do as well. Unless my vendettas manage to roast them turn 1 like they've been doing to crisis teams.

Anyways thanks folks I just wanted to check my own thoughts on this matter with a public forum to see if it's common to feel guilty over winning and if I mayhaps was slipping into cheddar land.

[Chumbalaya]

Don't worry about it, there's nothing wrong with winning. Hopefully it will galvanize your friends into playing smarter and building better armies, so you guys can really escalate into more competitive play. Being a part of the evolution of play is a lot of fun.

[Drunkencorgimaster]

Your experience is related to a broader phenomenum in life. Success engenders jealousy. Entire philosophical and political movements have been based upon that reality. See Anne Rand vs. Karl Marx.