inquisitor Karamazov

[Prison Love]

I have two questions about inquisitor Karamazov

First question: If inquisitor Karamazov is in a squad and they have to take a leadership test do too losing 25% can he use his Dread Reputation to auto fail or pass or is it something he can only use when he is alone?

Second question: He also has Orbital strike Relay. Can he use this even if he moves? In the discription of Orbital Strike Relay it says if the model has not moved but he also has Relentless.

thnx in advance

[celestialatc]

1: I would say that his unit can use this. It's like combat tactics from Codex: Space Marines and And they shall know no fear rolled into one. Even though it does not say the unit he is in, I would say it extends to the unit since it does not say otherwise.

At the very least you can reroll your failed morale tests if your opponent does not accept that Dread Rep extends to the unit.

2. He can not use it if he moves. Relentless lets you fire heavy weapons like assault weapons. OS,R on top of being a heavy/ordnance weapon, puts on a second restriction that you can't move to use it. Relentless does not stop that rule.

[Tynskel]

(I am going from memory here, so I am 50% correct, probably...)

Ordnance and the ability to fire while moving is fine. The rules state you do not have to be stationary to fire an ordnance weapon.

Movement restrictions for Heavy are overridden by Relentless.

The only thing I am missing here is indirect fire and ordnance. That may be where this becomes hairy...

[SeattleDV8]

The Orbital Strike Relay has it's own rules.
GK Codex, pg.58

...is treated as a ranged weapon that can be used provided that the bearer did not move in the preceding Movement phase (though he can later assault if the controlling player wishes)
Being allowed to assault shows that.
It doesn't seem that Relentless would help here, besides the fact it only works with Heavy or Rapid fire weapons.

[hisdudeness]

Here is the correct answer for the OSR and Relentless USR with support.

Relentless changes the rules for rapid fire and heavy weapons only (BRB 76). The GK OSR has 3 types. One of which is a Heavy 1 (Lance Strike, C:GK p 58). Thus, Lance Strike is the only one affected by Relentless; you are out of luck for the Barrage Bomb and Psyk-out Bomb. Although I believe SeattleDV8 could make a case with his point of OSR having separate rules.

For the Dread Rep issue: I say yes he can and here is why. The BRB addresses ICs as leaders (BRB p47) and states that a units Leadership tests are made with the highest in the unit, including ICs. So we would use Karmazov’s Ld for any tests. And since the 25% test is a morale check Karmazov can use his Dread Rep special rule.

[gendoikari87]

I have two questions about inquisitor Karamazov

First question: If inquisitor Karamazov is in a squad and they have to take a leadership test do too losing 25% can he use his Dread Reputation to auto fail or pass or is it something he can only use when he is alone?

Second question: He also has Orbital strike Relay. Can he use this even if he moves? In the discription of Orbital Strike Relay it says if the model has not moved but he also has Relentless.

thnx in advance

Relentless only changes rapid fire and heavy USR's the can't fire while moving is a special rule of the OSR so, no. He cannot fire it on the move.

[hisdudeness]

There is no 'heavy' or 'rapid fire' USR. Those are weapon types.

Both types define how a weapon of that type functions. The part we are interested in is how the types are affected by movement. Relentless modifies those rules on how the weapon types interact with movement. There is nothing in either rules that says OSR is not affected by any USRs.

You will have to find something that shows me why Relentless does not modify the rules for the Lance Strike.

[Tynskel]

ah. This forum has been dead for a while. Finally an interesting question. I will have to look this up when I get back home. I got caught in that snowstorm in colorado.

[SeattleDV8]

Here is the correct answer for the OSR and Relentless USR with support.

Relentless changes the rules for rapid fire and heavy weapons only (BRB 76).
Agreed

The GK OSR has 3 types. One of which is a Heavy 1 (Lance Strike, C:GK p 58). Thus, Lance Strike is the only one affected by Relentless; you are out of luck for the Barrage Bomb and Psyk-out Bomb. Although I believe SeattleDV8 could make a case with his point of OSR having separate rules.
Well, if the Lance was a true 'heavy' weapon then you also could not assault after firing it.
There is enough there to make the OSR treated as it's own rules and as such may not move and shoot.


For the Dread Rep issue: I say yes he can and here is why. The BRB addresses ICs as leaders (BRB p47) and states that a units Leadership tests are made with the highest in the unit, including ICs. So we would use Karmazov’s Ld for any tests. And since the 25% test is a morale check Karmazov can use his Dread Rep special rule.As to that, I think I would give it too the unit also.
It's a grey area I see arguements both ways.

[hisdudeness]

Being a "true" heavy weapon has no bearing as the rules for relentless do not state it modifies only "true" heavy weapons. The model is allowed to assault beacause the rules for OSR already modify the rules for heavy weapons type and also has no bearing on if relentless can modify an OSR.

Here is how I see it SeattleDV8:

GK OSR has the following rules:
1) It is a ranged weapon
2) Bearer cannot move preceding Movement phase to use
3) can assault after using
4) Choose type [a. Barrage (ordnance), b. Lance (heavy), c. Psyk-out (ordnance)]
5) scatters full 2d6

Relentless modifies the following rules:
1) heavy weapons maybe fired even if unit moved
2) rapid fire weapons maybe fired at max range even if unit moved
3) both are allowed to assault after firing

Thus the OSR fired by a model with relentless has the following modified rules:
1) It is a ranged weapon
2) Model may move and still fire, but only for Lance Strike. Other 2 may not be fired if the model moved the preceding Movement phase.
3) can assault after using
4) Choose type [a. Barrage (ordnance), b. Lance (heavy), c. Psyk-out (ordnance)]
5) scatters full 2d6

[SeattleDV8]

Well i agree with 12 out of 13.
That damned red one though....heh

[gendoikari87]

Relentless modifies the following rules:
1) heavy weapons maybe fired even if unit moved
2) rapid fire weapons maybe fired at max range even if unit movedcorrect but it does not state that it overrides anything else and that includes the OSR's own special rule that says you can't move and fire it. that supercededs type so even if the OSR was had an assault type, it would be unable to move and fire.

[thecactusman17]

Lots of folks are mentioning the special wording of the Orbital Strike, and they have a good point.

As for the Dread Reputation ability, I can't understand why this is an issue. It makes perfect sense that Karazmazov can use it for both himself and a joined unit. I can't think of a single unit that is not affected by it's own aura, at least without specifically mentioning the restriction. So if Karazmazov is joined to a unit, his unit must be able to use he highest leadership available (his @ ld 10) and thus able to use his pass or fail ability. this used to be explicitly worded into his rules back when he was an actual monstrous creature.

[hisdudeness]

gendoikari87, why does relentless not override the move and shoot rules for OSR? What else does Relentless need to say? The issue is can you move and shoot with OSR: LS, Relentless specifically says it modifies any heavy weapon to a “yes, you can now move and shoot”.

Relentless modifies any heavy or rapid fire weapon type. OSR:Lance Strike is a stat line of a heavy weapon. This is no different than any other multi stat line weapons. Some USRs and special rules will/ will not affect the weapon based on how the weapon is used.

I agree SeattleDV8 that you may have a case, but until someone shows me where and why Relentless excludes OSR:Lance Strike I don’t see it as an issue.

I'm am only guessing, but the reason for the non-movement part of the OSRs rule could be because the rules for ordinance only mentions vehicles and to stop any arguments on how the ordinance weapon type is affected by the user being an infantry model they added that line. If there was an “OSR can never move or shoot” part (as there are with other un-modifiable rules, such as the full scatter rule of ordinance) in the rules then I would agree.

[gendoikari87]

gendoikari87, why does relentless not override the move and shoot rules for OSR? What else does Relentless need to say? The issue is can you move and shoot with OSR: LS, Relentless specifically says it modifies any heavy weapon to a “yes, you can now move and shoot”

Because the OSR has a special rule for it and it alone, relentless only modifies weapon type. Therefore even if all three were assault type, you STILL could not move and fire the weapon. Relentless only affects the type, but the OSR's special rule is independent of the type.

[hisdudeness]

And where does it say that it cannot be modified? You are going to have to show me a page where this is stated.

That line in question is a clarification on how a rule that is for vehicle mounted ordinance changes when it is carried by a non-vehicle unit, it is not a special rule for OSRs. Otherwise I would be able to say that an infantry mounted ordinance weapon is move and shoot, because the rules only place limits on vehicles moving and shooting ordinance. But none of this matters because the OSR:LS is a heavy weapon which can be modified by Relentless. Until someone shows me a page number or FAQ, I'm staying with my answer.

Nor does Relentless state it does not have an effect on OSRs or multi-statline weapons.

[Tynskel]

I can't remember, however, this may be relevant... the Demo Charge in the Imp Guard 4th edition codex was ordnance. You can move n' fire with that... but I don't remember if Demo Charge in 5th Edition codex still has the ordnance sub-type.

[hisdudeness]

I can't remember, however, this may be relevant... the Demo Charge in the Imp Guard 4th edition codex was ordnance. You can move n' fire with that... but I don't remember if Demo Charge in 5th Edition codex still has the ordnance sub-type.

In 5th it is Assault 1. I've been looking in other codex and FAQ to find some more info, but no luck yet.

[gendoikari87]

And where does it say that it cannot be modified? You are going to have to show me a page where this is stated. It doesn't, it's relentless, it only states that it works for ordinance, and heavy. The OSR's special rule is a rule that supercedes it's type.

edit: and yes, it is a special rule for the OSR, it is not just a clarification.

[hisdudeness]

There is no mention or a FAQ entry that tells us that the OSRs move or shoot rule is an un-modifiable rule. When it is un-modifiable it is clearly stated or addressed in the FAQ. For example, the full scatter rules for ordnance have been FAQ’d to show it is un-modifiable. It is a clarification as to the function of OSRs because otherwise I could move and shoot the other 2 kinds of OSRs.

There no mention that Relentless does not work with weapons that have multiple stat lines. The precedence has been set that each stat line is treated as a separate weapon for rules purposes. Thus OSR:LS is a: 1) Heavy 1, 2) Blast, 3) Lance, 4) Move or shoot, 5) may assault after firing, 6) always has full scatter.

For Relentless to apply the weapon must be a heavy or rapid fire weapon type. That’s it. Relentless thus changes 4 (from above) to move and shoot.

Last time I checked specific>general. Relentless specifically modifies the general OSR rule of “move or shoot” to “move and shoot”.

[gendoikari87]

You are missing the point. Relentless only modifies weapon type, the OSR clearly states, that you cannot move and shoot with it. Nothing about being because of type. It does not state it is clarifying a rule, it is simply an extra rule on top of the other rules for the various profiles, much like the 2d6 scatter. So, no, you cannot move and fire with the OSR, period. You would have to have something that over rode the OSR itself, not just weapon type, which is what relentless does.

[hisdudeness]

Relentless does not modify weapon type. It modifies the rules for a weapon type. And OSR:LS is a Heavy weapon with all the good and bad that comes with it. Relentless negates some of those bads, period.

I will give that it is most likely the intent for OSR to always be move and shoot, but the rules don't support it.

[SeattleDV8]

You get odd interactions because the Ordnance weapons are generally vehicle mounted and as such the rules are worded for vehicles.
Even Walkers may not fire any other weapon if firing an ordnance weapon.
They are supposted to be difficult to use.
Being as we don't have rules for infantry to fire them we have to use the OSR's self contained rules.
If you wish to fire them you don't get to move.

[celestialatc]

I wish to point out that the only units that can take OSR have relentless. If it was designed to be over ridden by Relentless more HQ would have the ability to use it. Instead, why would you put that rule there if the only HQs that can take it already have relentless? (and yes this could be like the Brotherhood Champion and Digital Weapons be a glaring type but I just don't buy that OSR can move and shoot).

[hisdudeness]

I wish to point out that the only units that can take OSR have relentless. If it was designed to be over ridden by Relentless more HQ would have the ability to use it. Instead, why would you put that rule there if the only HQs that can take it already have relentless? (and yes this could be like the Brotherhood Champion and Digital Weapons be a glaring type but I just don't buy that OSR can move and shoot).

That thinking doesn't work very well. GK Grand Master can purchase an OSR, he doesn't have relentless.
Same with a Brother-captain and techmarine. In fact, Karamazov is the only one in the entire codex...

Edit: forgot GM and Brother-Captions are in terinator armor, But Techmarine is not.

[gendoikari87]

I wish to point out that the only units that can take OSR have relentless. .

that's probably why it has that line in the first place to stop those sorts of shenanigans.

[gcsmith]

I dont know about the move and shoot one, but for his leadership thing. If its pass or fail, while it seems useless outside a unit, the rules in the rule book state that an indy char's rules like that are not transfered.
Hence why chaplains etc the chaplain and any unit they are with.

[SeattleDV8]

The Chaplins are a bad example.
Chaplins have the USR 'Fearless'
IC's with Fearless lose the USR when joined to a unit without Fearless.
That's why all Chaplins grant the unit they join Fearless as it is the only way it can give the unit the USR.
Inquisitor Karamazov has a Special Rule, not a USR.
Now whether or not it works with a Unit.......damned if I know.

[celestialatc]

Edit: forgot GM and Brother-Captions are in terinator armor, But Techmarine is not.

Good point, I forgot about the techmarine!

I was really hoping the Space Marine FAQ might have an answer since they have orbital bombardment...but no such luck. Might be time to flood GW with questions about this and hope they answer it!

[DarkLink]

I think the fact that the OSR very specifically states that you cannot move and shoot it, and that specific rules trump general ones, it's pretty obvious what the correct conclusion is. Not only is the OSR a heavy weapon (which relentless ignores), but it has another rule completely separate from the heavy weapon rule that prevents it from moving and firing. Relentless does not stop that other rule.


Also keep in mind that the OSR "always scatters 2d6" ", which means it always scatters 2d6" even if it's in range of a servo skull which would otherwise reduce its scatter. Amazing how sometimes the rules mean exactly what it sounds like they mean.

[hisdudeness]

You hit my point on the head Darklink, but there is no “always” with the move or shoot rule. Thus there is nothing saying it cannot be modified.

All I’m getting is general “I don’t believe this is the way it is” with little to no rules/precedence support for the view against move and shoot.

[gendoikari87]

You hit my point on the head Darklink, but there is no “always” with the move or shoot rule. Thus there is nothing saying it cannot be modified.

All I’m getting is general “I don’t believe this is the way it is” with little to no rules/precedence support for the view against move and shoot.

No you just don't want to see it. Relentless doesn't alter special rules other than heavy/rapid fire. So it does not override the OSR's special rule, we've been over this a thousand times. if another rule existed that allowed you to move and fire ALL weapons then yes it might could work, but relentless isn't it.

[hisdudeness]

Show me some support for your argument, gendoikari87. What am I not seeing? People posting that they don’t agree with my assertion and not backing it up with support? I will give you that. This is a rules discussion that requires support for your view. Without support you are just giving an opinion and that is what the GW phone line gives.

The move or shoot is not a ‘special rule’; it is a description on how a vehicle rule functions on a non-vehicle unit for the wargear in question. ‘Special rules’ is a specific term used under a unit heading, wargear does not have ‘special rules’ they have specific rules as to how they function within the game.

Relentless: “…Relentless models can shoot with rapid fire and heavy weapons counting as stationary, even if they moved in the previous Movement phase, …” (BRB p76)

I ask you this:
Is OSR:LS a heavy weapon? YES.
Does relentless allow me to count a model as stationary when firing heavy weapons? YES.
Since a) OSR:LS is a heavy weapon and b) a Relentless model counts as stationary for all heavy weapons the model can then count as stationary and move and shoot the OSR:LS.

Even if you go for your premise; a relentless model counts as stationary for all heavy and rapid fire weapons, thus when the OSR:LS looks to see if the model has moved it will be a negative. The missing part to your argument is that the ‘move or shoot’ part of OSR does not contain “always” as the full scatter rule does.

I MOUNT MY PLAYTPUS!

[keithsilva]

This can go either way, I can see both points or the argument, u are not allowed to move to fire ordance even with a vehicle or walker I believe ( I dont have me rulebook in front of me at this time), meaning infranty could not, but i dont know. It can go either way.

I play it the way its worded can not move even with relentless, makes since fluff wise, would be nice to see which way its goes, because if the favor he can move and shot because of relentless mean Calgar equip with terminator armor can move a shot his ordnance bombardment since terminator armor gives u relentless :D

[Tynskel]

This can go either way, I can see both points or the argument, u are not allowed to move to fire ordance even with a vehicle or walker I believe ( I dont have me rulebook in front of me at this time), meaning infranty could not, but i dont know. It can go either way.

I play it the way its worded can not move even with relentless, makes since fluff wise, would be nice to see which way its goes, because if the favor he can move and shot because of relentless mean Calgar equip with terminator armor can move a shot his ordnance bombardment since terminator armor gives u relentless :D

ordnance may move and fire.

Indirect fire ordnance, however, cannot fire at combat speed. However, fast vehicles count as stationary at combat speed, and may therefore fire indirect fire. This is why Whirlwinds in the BA army rock– you can move 6" fire indirect, move 12" fire direct. This also means you can Tank Shock 12" and then fire across the board in direct fire. The only sad thing, though, is that there are many many other tanks that kick butt in the BA army.

[hisdudeness]

To edit what Tynskel said. There are 2 modes of 'ordnance' weapons, ordnance and ordnance barrage.

Ordnance has the only added limitation of being the only thing that can be fired from the vehicle. It cannot fire indirect.

Ordnance Barrage has the added limitations to the a normal ordnance mode of being 'move or shoot' and able to be fired indrect.


To get back on subject: I am still not seeing any support for the opposing view.

[gendoikari87]

The move or shoot is not a ‘special rule’; it is a description on how a vehicle rule functions on a non-vehicle unit for the wargear in questionNo, if that's what it was it would state that, as it has a heavy profile, it would specifically state Blah blah blah, for ordinance weapons on infantry models, blah blah blah. the full 2d6 is not a clarification, in the same paragraph it is a rule of how you use the weapon


Show me some support for your argument, gendoikari87. What am I not seeing?

Here, Page 58 second paragraph describing the rules for the OSR:


The orbital strike relay is treated as a ranged weapon that can be used provided that the bearer did not move in the preceding movement phase (though he can later assault if the controlling player wishes)(Can you assault after firing a heavy weapon? NO, it's not clairifying the rules)Each time the orbital strike relay is used, you must choose which kind of strike you wish to call down. Not that the orbital strikes always scatter the full 2d6" in the direction shwon (if a hit is rolled, they scatter in the direction of the small arrow on the 'hit' symbol

These are not explainations, they are rules. Extra rules on top of what the profile says. they say no where that they are modifiable, they do not state they are clarifications, therefore we must take them as rules.

[hisdudeness]

Yet again gendoikari87, you fail to present anything to back up your view. Pulling out the rule in question and saying it is as plain as day that my view is correct will not get you far.

If it was plain as day there would be no question as to how it is played and we would not be here. The short of it is that I do not like that OSR:LS can benefit from Relentless. The last thing I want is an OSR wielding Terminator running around the board, but the rules (in my view) support it happening. I would hope at some point this is addressed in a FAQ and it is not allowed.

Here (as clearly as I can put it) is why I believe OSR:LS benefits from Relentless.

1) Precedent: Rules that are not modifiable are clearly worded so and have been FAQ’d for clarity. Example: Full scatter for ordnance weapons. Rules states ‘always’ and BRB FAQ has clarified.
2) OSR:LS is a: Heavy 1, Blast, Lance, Move or shoot, may assault after firing, and always has full scatter.
3) Relentless allows heavy weapons to be modified to “move and shoot”.
4) USR rules are more specific than Wargear rules, thus Relentless > OSR.

The fact that the “move or shoot” rule is listed in the general rules for all 3 types of OSR does not make it un-modifiable. As soon as you declare you are firing the Lance Strike type of OSR the general rules for the OSR can be modified.

In effect you have two conflicting rules happening at the same time: OSR rules stating “move or shoot” and Relentless stating “move and shoot”.

So I ask: Which one is more specific?

[gendoikari87]

You cannot assault after firing a heavy weapon, that it states that means it is part of the OSR's rules, this was also seen with the ruling on the OSR and SS.

Furthermore you go by what the rules (in this case the OSR specifically states you cannot move after firing. Period, and nothing is overriding this as it is separate from the Heavy rule or ordinance rule) are until it's faqed or rather erratad as saying otherwise, in the book it clearly states, "cannot move and shoot", not part of the ordinance rules, but the bit about the WHOLE OSR. Relentless does not override this.


What it comes down to is, you have to point out where it says it's just restating a rule because if it is, it got it wrong.

[hisdudeness]

But you can assault after shooting Ordinance weapons...

[thecactusman17]

Absolutely you can assault after firing ordinance weapons, provided they are not Heavy Weapons.

Here are the rules depicted in the orbital Strike profiles:

Heavy, Ordinance, Barrage, Lance, Psy-shock

Relentless applies to Heavy.

Here are the rules for FIRING THE WEAPON:

The Oribital Strike Relay is treated as a ranged weapon that can be used provided that the bearer did not move in the preceding Movement phase (though he can later assault if the controlling player wishes)

The weapon can only be used if the model has not moved in the movement phase of that turn. Very explicit. Relentless does not change this in any way. Relentless is a rule that states, unequivically:

Relentless models can fire with Heavy and Rapid Fire weapons counting as stationary, even if they moved in the previous movement phase.

Note that you don't choose whichever type of attack you make until AFTER you activate the weapon. Want a heavy blast? Great! DON'T MOVE, activate the OSR, and THEN choose the Lance! This is explicitly written into the rules for the weapon.

Sorry Dudeness, but you've got it wrong.

[hisdudeness]

Where do you get this "you don't choose whichever type of attack until after you activate the weapon" stuff? You will have to show me that in the rules.

So thecatctusman, we have a Wargear with conflicting rules applied to it, how do we solve the issue?

Here is my point:

OSR says "move or shoot".

When you shoot OSR:Lance Strike (a heavy weapon) and have Relentless you get "move and shoot".

Thus you have to conflicting rules, "move OR shoot" and "move AND shoot".

When rule conflicts happen you go with the more specific. OSR's "move or shoot" is a general rule for all Grey Knight OSR wargear. Relentless is a specific rule for heavy weapons.

Specfic Relentless > General OSR


As far as your quoting the OSR rules...Take a look at this.

Here are the rules for RUNNING:

Units that run in the Shooting phase cannot assault in the following Assault phase.

The model cannot assault in the following Assault phase if is has Run in Shooting phase of that turn. Very explicit. Fleet does not change this in any way. Fleet is a rule the states, unequivically:

A unit with this rule may assault the same turn in which it has run.


See how your line of thinking fails....

[gendoikari87]

Come on dudeness, admit you are wrong or just trolling...

[hisdudeness]

I'm not wrong, I have fully supported my view. All I get in return is "it's so obvious, it's right there in the rule" Frankly, I don't troll.

I have yet to get an answer to my key point: OSR rules say "move or shoot" and Relentless gives OSR:LS "move and shoot". Which rule wins and why? That is all I am asking.

[gendoikari87]

I'm not wrong, I have fully supported my view. All I get in return is "it's so obvious, it's right there in the rule" Frankly, I don't troll.

I have yet to get an answer to my key point: OSR rules say "move or shoot" and Relentless gives OSR:LS "move and shoot". Which rule wins and why? That is all I am asking.

No, you've gotten the answer supported several times and refuse to accept it.

[thecactusman17]

There is no "thinking" in my post. The rules quoted are verbatim from their respective rulesets. The OSR says under its own rules that you fire the weapon and then select the profile. Please read your rulebook, and codex, completely. This rules question has been answered in its entirety.

[hisdudeness]

Here are the answers I have received:


Relentless only changes rapid fire and heavy USR's the can't fire while moving is a special rule of the OSR so, no. He cannot fire it on the move.

Flat out incorrect. Relentless does nothing described here. No support as to why Relentless does not affect OSR.



Agreed

Well, if the Lance was a true 'heavy' weapon then you also could not assault after firing it.
There is enough there to make the OSR treated as it's own rules and as such may not move and shoot.

As to that, I think I would give it too the unit also.
It's a grey area I see arguements both ways.

OSR is the combination of 2 weapon types, ordinance and heavy. GW saw fit to explain how this combination work with the rules stated under the OSR wargear entry. This in no way means that is cannot be modified or affected but other rules.



correct but it does not state that it overrides anything else and that includes the OSR's own special rule that says you can't move and fire it. that supercededs type so even if the OSR was had an assault type, it would be unable to move and fire.

When firing OSR:LS and the model has Relentless it now has “move or shoot” from the wargear rules and “move and fire” from relentless. Which wins?



Because the OSR has a special rule for it and it alone, relentless only modifies weapon type. Therefore even if all three were assault type, you STILL could not move and fire the weapon. Relentless only affects the type, but the OSR's special rule is independent of the type.
First, not a special rule…it is the rules for this specific wargear. Relentless does not modify weapon type, it changes heavy “move or shoot” to “move and shoot” and allows assaults after firing. It does not matter if the rule is independent, it can still be affected by other rules. It has not been shown that it can’t. This is the “it’s so obvious” defense being used.



It doesn't, it's relentless, it only states that it works for ordinance, and heavy. The OSR's special rule is a rule that supercedes it's type.

edit: and yes, it is a special rule for the OSR, it is not just a clarification.

OSR: Lance Strike is a heavy weapon. Why does Relentless not affect it? Again, not a special rule, which really doesn’t matter even if it was.



You are missing the point. Relentless only modifies weapon type, the OSR clearly states, that you cannot move and shoot with it. Nothing about being because of type. It does not state it is clarifying a rule, it is simply an extra rule on top of the other rules for the various profiles, much like the 2d6 scatter. So, no, you cannot move and fire with the OSR, period. You would have to have something that over rode the OSR itself, not just weapon type, which is what relentless does.
Again incorrect, Relentless changes the rules for heavy and rapid fire…it does not “modify weapon type”. Again, the wargear has both “move and shoot’ and “move or shoot” which wins? Again, another instance of “it’s so obvious”. Show me where the rules for OSR cannot be modified.



You get odd interactions because the Ordnance weapons are generally vehicle mounted and as such the rules are worded for vehicles.
Even Walkers may not fire any other weapon if firing an ordnance weapon.
They are supposted to be difficult to use.
Being as we don't have rules for infantry to fire them we have to use the OSR's self contained rules.
If you wish to fire them you don't get to move.

Fluff and more “it’s so obvious”. No support for the view stated.



I think the fact that the OSR very specifically states that you cannot move and shoot it, and that specific rules trump general ones, it's pretty obvious what the correct conclusion is. Not only is the OSR a heavy weapon (which relentless ignores), but it has another rule completely separate from the heavy weapon rule that prevents it from moving and firing. Relentless does not stop that other rule.


Also keep in mind that the OSR "always scatters 2d6" ", which means it always scatters 2d6" even if it's in range of a servo skull which would otherwise reduce its scatter. Amazing how sometimes the rules mean exactly what it sounds like they mean.

Doesn’t matter if it specifically stated…there has been nothing shown that it cannot be modified or that it take precedence over the Relentless “move and shoot” or that Relentless does not affect OSR:LS. More “it’s so obvious”. The state of specific>general is correct, but USR is more specific then Wargear rules.



No you just don't want to see it. Relentless doesn't alter special rules other than heavy/rapid fire. So it does not override the OSR's special rule, we've been over this a thousand times. if another rule existed that allowed you to move and fire ALL weapons then yes it might could work, but relentless isn't it.

Again, not a special rule. It is the stated rules for this wargear. Again, were does it say we can’t change it? There needs to be some explanation as to why…you know support.



No, if that's what it was it would state that, as it has a heavy profile, it would specifically state Blah blah blah, for ordinance weapons on infantry models, blah blah blah. the full 2d6 is not a clarification, in the same paragraph it is a rule of how you use the weapon

Here, Page 58 second paragraph describing the rules for the OSR:

These are not explainations, they are rules. Extra rules on top of what the profile says. they say no where that they are modifiable, they do not state they are clarifications, therefore we must take them as rules.

I will concede the point that it is not a clarification. It is the stated rules of the wargear. They are not “extra’ rules. They don’t have to state they can modified, the rules that modify other rules explain that they can modify other rules. Just like Relentless does.



You cannot assault after firing a heavy weapon, that it states that means it is part of the OSR's rules, this was also seen with the ruling on the OSR and SS.

Furthermore you go by what the rules (in this case the OSR specifically states you cannot move after firing. Period, and nothing is overriding this as it is separate from the Heavy rule or ordinance rule) are until it's faqed or rather erratad as saying otherwise, in the book it clearly states, "cannot move and shoot", not part of the ordinance rules, but the bit about the WHOLE OSR. Relentless does not override this.


What it comes down to is, you have to point out where it says it's just restating a rule because if it is, it got it wrong.


You are correct, you cannot assault after firing a heavy weapon. But wargear rules trump general weapon type rules. And Relentless adds the “move and fire” to the list of rules governing OSR:LS, so it now has both…which wins? There is no “always” that is included in the full scatter rules. There has been a precedence set that that is what is required to make a rule unchangeable. It is not present in the “move or shoot” rules of OSR, thus it can be changed.



No, you've gotten the answer supported several times and refuse to accept it.
As shown above, no I have not.



There is no "thinking" in my post. The rules quoted are verbatim from their respective rulesets. The OSR says under its own rules that you fire the weapon and then select the profile. Please read your rulebook, and codex, completely. This rules question has been answered in its entirety.

And I quoted the rules verbatim for running and fleet, and applying your view of the rules fleet cannot change the rules for running. But we know that is not correct. I agree, the “move or shoot” rules are part of the rules for OSR, but why does Relentless not affect OSR:LS? No, again I get another “it’s so obvious” answer with no support. I have read the rules book and have supported my veiw with rules from it or rules from a FAQ. What have you done?

1) Why does Relentless not affect OSR?
2) A model with Relentless firing OSR:LS has both “move or shot” and “move and shoot”. So I ask again, which wins?

[thecactusman17]

Relentless does not affect the osr because using the osr does not count as firing a heavy weapon. Until the blast is placed, the weapon has no profile at all. Thus it cannot be affected by the relentless special rule. Thank you.

[hisdudeness]

Telentless does nit affect the osr because using the osr does not count as firing a heavy weapon. Until the blast is placed, the weapon has no profile at all. Thus it cannot be affected by the relentless special rule. Thank you.

Got a precedent or a rule to back that up? Or is this another "it's so obvious" defense?

And yet again you have not answered my questions.

You are both missing the point. You have to give us something that can be used if this comes up in a game. Pointing to the rules book and saying look it so obvious that you can do that will not cut it.

[thecactusman17]

This is explicit in the rules. Pull out a pen and write down the steps for firing the osr, in the order described in the codex. You will see that my previous post, spelling errors aside, is correct. Thank you fir your time.

[hisdudeness]

Will do:
1) Check line of sight and pick target: We can assume Karamazov has LOS and a valid target. We choose what models are shooting. This where you declare what is firing. Ie, Karamazov is targeting X unit with OSR:LS.
2) Check Range: Determine which models have range and can shoot. Range is Unlimited so not an issue.
3) Roll to hit: roll a D6 for each shot.
4) Roll to wound: opposed roll vs. target Toughness.
5) Take saving throws: Roll saves.
6) Remove casualties: Wd goes to 0 remove model.
Straight from p 15 of the BRB. The codex does not define how a weapon is shot, the BRB does. There is nothing there that supports your ‘timing’ of how you shoot. There is no such thing in 40k.

I will humor you and show you where your thinking fails again. It says choose when you use. I check LOS and declare what models are shooting with what weapons. As soon as I say I’m using OSR, I am using it. Thus I declare which type and determine is if I can shoot it. We do not declare I am shooting my OSR and then decide later which type I am using after I roll to hit or check range.

AGAIN, no answer to my questions. More “it’s so obvious” if you read the rules…

[gendoikari87]

1) Why does Relentless not affect OSR? Because it only affects heavy and rapid fire, osr has it's own set of rules.

[thecactusman17]

Will do:
1) Check line of sight and pick target: We can assume Karamazov has LOS and a valid target. We choose what models are shooting. This where you declare what is firing. Ie, Karamazov is targeting X unit with OSR:LS.
2) Check Range: Determine which models have range and can shoot. Range is Unlimited so not an issue.
3) Roll to hit: roll a D6 for each shot.
4) Roll to wound: opposed roll vs. target Toughness.
5) Take saving throws: Roll saves.
6) Remove casualties: Wd goes to 0 remove model.
Straight from p 15 of the BRB. The codex does not define how a weapon is shot, the BRB does. There is nothing there that supports your ‘timing’ of how you shoot. There is no such thing in 40k.

I will humor you and show you where your thinking fails again. It says choose when you use. I check LOS and declare what models are shooting with what weapons. As soon as I say I’m using OSR, I am using it. Thus I declare which type and determine is if I can shoot it. We do not declare I am shooting my OSR and then decide later which type I am using after I roll to hit or check range.

AGAIN, no answer to my questions. More “it’s so obvious” if you read the rules…

Really? Because the OSR has very specific rules:

The orbital strike relay is treated as a ranged weapon that can BE USED provided that the bearer did not move in the preceding movement phase... Each time the Orbital Strike Relay IS USED you must choose which kind of strike you wish to call down.

Verbatim from the codex.

Do you want to use the Orbital Strike Relay (Y/N)
(If Yes) Did your model move previously (Y/N)
(If Yes) The OSR cannot be used.
(If No) You may use the Orbital Strike Relay, which strike is used?

And...... done. Any other questions?

[gendoikari87]

Hisdudeness will undoubtedly find some problem with that, I think he's arguing for the sake of arguing.

[hisdudeness]

Wow, do you two even play the game? So OSR:LS is not a heavy weapon? Where do you get that that OSR changes the steps for the Shooting phase? We USE OSR when I declare that models are firing and with what in step 1. ANd when we use OSR you declare which profile you will be using. There is no 'delay' in theprocess, as you claim. It’s right there in the rules! OSR:LS benefits from Relentless. Why? Read the rules better it states it in black and white. There is no 'timing' as you describe it. Why? Read the rules better and write them down as you do.

I’m arguing because you both seem to not understand how a rules forum works. Both sides present a view and back it up with rules/precedents that others can use when this comes up during a game. You two have given us nothing but, “It is so obvious is right there in the rules” and then making up rule does not fly.

What am I supposed to tell my opponent when he tries to use this against me? “Read the rules better because you are wrong.”? I see that just resulting in a roll off.

Yes, I have a question cactus. Where is this ‘timing’ rule located in the rules? Can I have a page number?

I believe we have hit that point where both sides just restate the same stuff ad nauseam.

[gendoikari87]

Wow, do you two even play the game? So OSR:LS is not a heavy weapon?

it is but the OSR has an additional rule on top of that.

[gendoikari87]

Yes, I have a question cactus. Where is this ‘timing’ rule located in the rules? Can I have a page number?


timing is irrelevant, the OSR states you cannot move and fire it. Sure lance strike is heavy and relentless basically makes that assault but the weapon itself says you can't move and fire, so it's irrelevant.

[hisdudeness]

Addso it has "move or shot" from the OSR and" Move and shot" from Relentless. Which one wins and why?


You say it is a heavy weapon but does not benefit from Relentless, why?

[gendoikari87]

Addso it has "move or shot" from the OSR and" Move and shot" from Relentless. Which one wins and why?


You say it is a heavy weapon but does not benefit from Relentless, why?

Think of it this way. You have two lines of code.

Line 1: Heavy- You cannot move and shoot with this class unless you are relentless
Line 2: OSR - You cannot move and shoot with this weapon.

Relentless removes line one, but line 2 remains, relentless does nothing to line 2 at all, Specific>general. The OSR's rules are more specific than a USR. Therefore you cannot move and shoot with it.

[thecactusman17]

Lance Strike, according to the Orbital Strike Relay entry, isn't selected until the weapon is used. The weapon entry explicitly states that the weapon may not be used for any reason if the model has moved. This is an explicit statement. There is no room for argument here. This is directly taken from the Orbital Strike Relay entry. The weapon has its own rules for firing, listed in the weapon entry within the codex.

This thread is now over. No further discussion is occurring. Instead we have a single user willfully ignoring the ONLY rule entry that matters, the Orbital Strike Relay, which gives unique and explicit rules for using the Orbital Strike Relay and only the Orbital Strike Relay.

Requesting thread lock. This does not need to be another 20-page argument.

[gendoikari87]

Lance Strike, according to the Orbital Strike Relay entry, isn't selected until the weapon is used. The weapon entry explicitly states that the weapon may not be used for any reason if the model has moved. This is an explicit statement. There is no room for argument here. This is directly taken from the Orbital Strike Relay entry. The weapon has its own rules for firing, listed in the weapon entry within the codex.

This thread is now over. No further discussion is occurring. Instead we have a single user willfully ignoring the ONLY rule entry that matters, the Orbital Strike Relay, which gives unique and explicit rules for using the Orbital Strike Relay and only the Orbital Strike Relay.

Requesting thread lock. This does not need to be another 20-page argument.

Agreed, I've said it before I think hisdudeness is simply trolling. Bye bye troll.

[hisdudeness]

Wohoo!! Gendoikari gets it!!! You have to correct premise, but incorrect application. The “move or shoot” rules are the general rule for all the OSR wargear. Relentless is a specific rule for heavy weapons, thus Relentless trumps general wargear rules. Relentless doesn’t remove lines, it adds “move and shoot” to a weapon. This will be in conflict with the “move or shoot” of all heavy weapons and OSR wargear rules but is trumped by the more specific Relentless rule.


Lance Strike, according to the Orbital Strike Relay entry, isn't selected until the weapon is used.
Where do you come up with this cactus? You check LOS and then declare which models are firing with what weapon. That is how the game is played. That is in black and white.


The weapon entry explicitly states that the weapon may not be used for any reason if the model has moved. This is an explicit statement.
Again, where do you get this? As soon as the line “OSR is treated as a ranged weapon” is used we go to the shooting phase rules to determine how we use the wargear. Period. You will have to start using rules to change this fact.


There is no room for argument here. This is directly taken from the Orbital Strike Relay entry. The weapon has its own rules for firing, listed in the weapon entry within the codex.
The wargear does not change the rules for shooting. That is a very far fetched claim. All that line says is that in general OSR is "move or shoot" and in no way states that this cannot be changed. It further states that when you shoot the OSR you must choose one of the profiles listed.


This thread is now over. No further discussion is occurring. Instead we have a single user willfully ignoring the ONLY rule entry that matters, the Orbital Strike Relay, which gives unique and explicit rules for using the Orbital Strike Relay and only the Orbital Strike Relay.
No, we have a single user asking for support for an opposing view beyond the rule in question. How about this: OSR:LS can ”move and shoot” because Relentless says a heavy weapon can and OSR:LS is a heavy weapon. There I have stated my view the same way you are stating yours.


Requesting thread lock. This does not need to be another 20-page argument.
You can walk away at any point.

[thecactusman17]

I. Get. It. From. The. Orbital Strike Relay. WARGEAR ENTRY.

In the Codex.

WHICH OVERRIDES RULEBOOK.

[hisdudeness]

Codex does not override rulebook. Specific overrides general. While generally codex is more specific, it is not aways the case. Try doing a search of the rules forums and you will see this is the case.

[gendoikari87]

The “move or shoot” rules are the general rule for all the OSR wargear. Relentless is a specific rule for heavy weapons, thus Relentless trumps general wargear rules.
SRSLY? a rule made specifically for a SINGLE weapon is less specific than a blanket rule?

[Tynskel]

bwahah!

I cannot even follow both sides of the argument anymore.

I would suggest using the Terminator rules: advance stabilizations that hold sensors (hence weapons, or in this case, targeting information) steady for accurate firing-- hence 'Relentless'.

I don't see why this wouldn't apply to the Orbital Strike Relay.

[gendoikari87]

bwahah!

I cannot even follow both sides of the argument anymore.

I would suggest using the Terminator rules: advance stabilizations that hold sensors (hence weapons, or in this case, targeting information) steady for accurate firing-- hence 'Relentless'.

I don't see why this wouldn't apply to the Orbital Strike Relay.

Full=/=rules. besides something like an OSR is a bit more involved than your standard targeting device. It is after all calling down a strike from freaking outer space.

[hisdudeness]

SRSLY? a rule made specifically for a SINGLE weapon is less specific than a blanket rule?

Yes.



Full=/=rules. besides something like an OSR is a bit more involved than your standard targeting device. It is after all calling down a strike from freaking outer space.

Not really. All the device needs to send is the target location and speed. Or if it is a laser type targeting system, it sends nothing. The firering weapon system will just look for the reflected laser.

[gendoikari87]

Yes.

prove it.

[thecactusman17]

Codex does not override rulebook. Specific overrides general. While generally codex is more specific, it is not aways the case. Try doing a search of the rules forums and you will see this is the case.

Actually, codex DOES override rulebook and that is repeated in all FAQs (including for the rulebook) and the rulebook itself.

[Tynskel]

yeah, but you guys cannot even agree how to interpret these rules. You are all arguing in different ways.

This is gunna have to be a house rule.

I am going with the terminator armor's relentless helps to aim the Orbital Strike Relay.

[gendoikari87]

http://implied.facepalm.de/images/facepalm.jpg

[celestialatc]

Oh gendoikari87, thanks for a great laugh there. I don't think I will be pulling out OSR out anytime soon. I watched a Space Marine use Orbital Bombardment against me and the scatter is rough. Even if you could more I want something more dependable for my 50 points. (and I know this is about Karamazov but who has ever taken him more than once or twice?)

[gendoikari87]

when i get back to actually playing (I have no army right now) a Karmazov/coteaz build is what I'm going to use to make a cool admech army.

[Tynskel]

if your picture is for me, you should go and read the 8 page forum. You'll notice that the 3 of you cannot figure out what you are saying.

[gendoikari87]

if your picture is for me, you should go and read the 8 page forum. You'll notice that the 3 of you cannot figure out what you are saying.

90% his dudeness 10% you. Hisdudeness may not know what he's talking about but I certainly do.

[Tynskel]

90% his dudeness 10% you. Hisdudeness may not know what he's talking about but I certainly do.

Bwahah! You shouldn't be thinking 10% me, I have not been involved in this.

It was kary, cactus, and dudeman. All three of you have different arguments.

Sounds like house rule time.
I suggest using fluff when making house rules. The Terminator armor is designed to provide a stable platform for sensors, targeting arrays, and weapons systems. It makes logical extension that Relentless would help with targeting arrays, hence Orbital Strike Relays.

[gendoikari87]

Bwahah! You shouldn't be thinking 10% me, I have not been involved in this.

It was kary, cactus, and dudeman. All three of you have different arguments.

Sounds like house rule time.
I suggest using fluff when making house rules. The Terminator armor is designed to provide a stable platform for sensors, targeting arrays, and weapons systems. It makes logical extension that Relentless would help with targeting arrays, hence Orbital Strike Relays.

Not really, the OSR isn't an actively guided missile that can be guided onto target with a laser beam, it needs precise co-ordinates, and wind measurements.

[DarkLink]

Ever tried and read a GPS while running, even if it's on a mini-monitor strapped to your head? Not that 40k's movement rules make much sense in real life, or that real life logic has any bearing on the rules. And, of course, OSRs very well could be guided. We have guided artillery rounds nowadays, though I'm not sure if they've been widely adopted yet.

Frankly, I see it as being pretty simple. There are a number of things that can prevent you from moving and shooting. The weapon might have its own special rules (as is the case with the OSR), it might be a heavy weapon, etc. Relentless allows you to ignore some, but not all, movement restrictions. There are restrictions on the OSR that relentless does not ignore. Thus, you cannot move and shoot an OSR. Any other conclusion is really stretching it.

If the only restriction on OSRs moving and shooting was the fact that it's a heavy weapon, then fine. Problem is, it has another rule on top of being heavy that prevents you from moving and shooting it.



On a side note, I watched Battle: Los Angeles the other day, and it was pretty awesome (just ignore a few of the silly background stuff like why aliens are using our sewer system to drain water from the ocean, and that they somehow drain so water in less than a day that ocean levels measurably drop). Laser-guided missiles are an important plot point. Aside from a bit of the usual hollywood additions to most war movies, it's pretty awesome. Practically a recruitment film for the military and the Marines in particular.

[Meigeall]

In support of firing the Heavy profile after moving:

Quoted from the BRB, 76 - "Relentless models can shoot with rapid fire and heavy weapons counting as stationary, even if they moved in the previous Movement phase"

So, if you have relentless, you don't count as having moved so you can still fire the heavy profile.