BoK "2012" listing

[DrLove42]

Can someone who can get onto their website link to whats been said? Their website crashes my computer

Based on the comments on the BoLs front page, i get the feeling it trashes everything that was already established and means there is nothing that isn't power armour this year?

No Tau or Templars, despite massive evidence and rumours of them is, instead DA (based entirely on the fact theres a shoulder pad ont he spine of WD)

[energongoodie]

Here you go.

"The release schedule for 40k 2012 is…
April-May: Dark Angels/Fallen
June-Aug: 6th Ed/Box Set DA vs. CSM
Oct-Nov: Chaos Space Marines/Fallen
There is no Tau, no Black Templars, no Eldar. I want this on the record so strike me down if I am wrong! I am only re-reporting this schedule because I think people have been lead astray by all the false talk of other codices.
I also want to go on the record saying that the Chaos Space Marine codex will not be two books. That was an old rumor from about 5 years ago that got resurrected last year for some infernal reason.
As well another reminder that 6th ed leak pdf is a not the real deal!"

[Gotthammer]

The picture in question is this (so far):

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-NW6vFaVj4Vs/TyVcrTeOC_I/AAAAAAAAD78/CSaeWJwj7fk/s1600/cypher.bmp

[eldargal]

I didn't think anyone was suggesting there would be two CSM codices? I remember CSM being in a Legions book and then rumours of a WD list for cultists, renegades and perhaps non-alinged CSM. I don't think any of that conflicts with what BoK says.

[DrLove42]

*Sigh*. Well if this turns out to be true, looks like my Tau get to spend another year in storage.

But i'm not sure I believe it. All the rumours thus far have been Tau, Templars and Chaos. They didn't get FAQ's in the last round whereas everyone else did. They are the oldest books out of the lot.

Also is everyone basing DA this and DA that just on the spine of WD? They've had no rumours, and suddenly they're getting their codex next AND are the choice for the next starter box? I didn't think GW would drop their starter box for Eldar or Sisters or Chaos as all the rumours had been, but I doubt they'll have closetted, potential chaos homosexuals as the box choice

The box needs to be 2 very different armies. One small,one horde to give people the best options when starting. Not 2 identical power armoured forces with the only distinction being "in the fluff these ones are bad, and these ones are potentially bad"

[eldargal]

I have to admit I'm sceptical about the DA vs CSM thing too, that just seems ludicrous. Marines vs other Marines? GW have never done that in a starter set. DA vs Cultists with a few CSM perhaps at a stretch, but not 'DA vs CSM'.

[Deadlift]

I have to admit I'm sceptical about the DA vs CSM thing too, that just seems ludicrous. Marines vs other Marines? GW have never done that in a starter set. DA vs Cultists with a few CSM perhaps at a stretch, but not 'DA vs CSM'.

Never say never as far as GW are concerned. Thinking about it myself I can see it happening. We all know power armour sells and if the starter box set allows you to either build 2 army's or possible combine the 2 to make 1 power armoured army GW could be onto a winner. I do find it all a bit flip flop for some of these rumour mongers. DA weren't really mentioned at all until this WD spine business came about. Maybe just maybe it's just a nice piece of artwork and has nothing to do with future releases at all. Somebody in GW is having a laugh at all this.

[eldargal]

That is certainly true, but I would expect to see non-Marines in a starter set before we see Marines vs Marines. It just makes no sense from a starter set perspective, you want to give new players the broadest possible exposure to how the game works. Giving them two virtually identical armies is antithetical to that.

[HsojVvad]

I have to admit I'm sceptical about the DA vs CSM thing too, that just seems ludicrous. Marines vs other Marines? GW have never done that in a starter set. DA vs Cultists with a few CSM perhaps at a stretch, but not 'DA vs CSM'.

GW never did or SM vs Necrons or SM vs Tau, or SM vs Eldar, so does this mean that it will never happen? Just because it never happend doesn't mean it will not happen. Remember it's only what their 6th box set so there is lots of possibilites to happpen.

Also to the perosn who is shelving their Tau. Why? Do you really need to win with plastic toy soldiers to have fun? I find it funny how alot of people say they do awsome with Tau. Not trying to flame so sorry if I did that, just wanted to understand why shelving an army that you seem to love and be pationate about.

[eldargal]

Just because something hasn't happened won't mean it will, either. You can only look at what they have done and accross both games systems, 40k and WFB, they always offer two armies with contrasting playstyles, elite vs hordes. Marines vs Spiky Marines is inconsistent with that and completely counter to GWs established pattern. This doesn't mean it won't happen but I would be very, very surprised.

Also I don't trust starter set rumours this far out. We had reliable rumours stating that Skaven Vs High Elves was definitely not happening for the 8th ed starter right up to the time pictures were leaked a few days before GW announced it.

[isotope99]

Doesn't makes sense to me to have DA in the starter set.

At the moment you can represent your choice of chapter using the black reach box (even chaos if you make them renegade) . If you make them all Dark angels themed, you eliminate that and saddle people with models for a fringe codex instead. Either that or expect to see a lot of robed ultramarines, salamanders etc. in the future :(.

More likely they keep them as generic marines in the box but paint them as dark angels instead of smurfs for a change.

I'll agree with eldargal making marines versus marines is just weird, it doesn't showcase the variety of rules at all. You might as well go the whole hog and make the box all marines and have ultramarines versus some more ultramarines. At least that way it would be balanced ;).

[MarneusCalgar]

As I always say with these... always take this with huge amounts of salt...

[eldargal]

I assume 'Dark Angel' is meant in the same way AoBR had 'Ultramarines', they were painted that way but had no sculpted detail forcing people to play them as Ultramarines, I don't think BoK means to say they otherwise. Though this would be stupid too as you lose one of the defining DA characteristics, namely the robes. You would limit people to playing them as DA or BT if you include them, but including them would allow for them beautiful sculpts.

[Lexington]

75hastings69 over at Warseer has confirmed (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?331538-Rumors-from-BoK-Release-schedule&p=6060235&viewfull=1#post6060235) that "most of the stuff posted" by TastyTaste is correct, specifically mentioning the DA vs. Chaos, though he puts it as a nebulous "forces of Chaos," so do keep that in mind. However, 75hastings is close to Harry in terms of reliability, so this looks close to a lock!

Also from 75hastings: Plastic Chaos Dreadnought in the starter box. Oh yez. :D

UPDATE: Actually, in a different thread (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?331535-White-Dwarf-mystery-image-on-spine&p=6059629&viewfull=1#post6059629), 75hastings said the boxed set is "not 'just' CSM," so that's all kinds of interesting right there. I remember there being rumors about plastic Plague Bearers being in the starter at some point...

[DrLove42]

Without trying to sound too dramatic i'll be quite pissed off if this stuff turns out to be true.

A starter box of power armour (with questionable ethics) vs power armour (undoubtable bad ethics) with minions isn't very interesting. Although I can see this horrible idea of the plastic Chaos dred only being available in the boxed set, not on its own....

"Forces of chaos" means mixed i'm assuming. At the least it'll be CSM, the dread being in there confirms that. What could they have that goes with it? Deamons? Cultists? Traitor Guard? Unless the codexes change that when they get redone that makes an awful starter kit. Instead of having a solid starting building block for an army i have one/two units for 3 different armies.

Take Black Reach for example. If you choose Marines, you get a captain, a tactical squad, some terminators and a dread.If you choose Orks you get a warboss, a large group of boyz, some nobz and the deffkoptas.

Either one of these choices, you have a good foundation for building any army from. If it is Marines vs Chaos it'll be one of a few things

a) Power armour vs power armour. Boring
b) power armour vs demons. Deamons being one of the hardest armies to use and master. Not great for a beginners box
c) power armour vs assorted chaos. So you'll get 1 or 2 units from deamons, 1 or 2 from CSM etc. Not good for a starting point of view

By all means have Chaos in the starter box set. I have no problem with that. GW moving away from the poster boys for 30 seconds (even if it is just a sideways step from blue power armour to spiky power armour) is a good thing. Have chaos vs orks. Vs Nids. Hell even against Tau or Eldar. Just make it against a different army that doesn't play exactly the same

And thats just me *****ing about the starter box...don't get me started on a year with zero xenos support. Thats just pissing me off as well.

Apparantly i'm in an angry mood today....

[Galadren]

Starter box has always been Codex Space Marines. I would bet a Baneblade box that its going to be Codex Space Marines again, too. That said, I really think these release rumors are wrong. As has been stated previously the rumors for months and months have been BT and Tau. DA weren't even on the radar. Also, it makes more sense from abdesign standpoint to bring older codices in line. Things like adjusting point costs for BT to bring them over to standard marine costs and similiar updates for Tau. I just don't see the sense in these rumors at all.

[DarkLink]

...though he puts it as a nebulous "forces of Chaos," so do keep that in mind.

That will make a lot of people very happy.

[Lexington]

Dang it, I post one thing, then it gets contradicted. New from Yonder Hastingsbot (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?331538-Rumors-from-BoK-Release-schedule&p=6061636&viewfull=1#post6061636):

"Having re-read this thread I want to point out that I am only confirming the starter as DA vs chaos NOT the DA & CSM codex release dates. The next 40k releases are :- 'nids, SW, necrons (all models only no codex)"

So, DA and a mix of Chaos sounds like the contents of the boxed set, but no confirmations/denials on the Codex order.


Although I can see this horrible idea of the plastic Chaos dred only being available in the boxed set, not on its own....
Doubtful. I believe reliable rumor-humans have said that there's a full plastic Chaos Dreadnought coming in the full Chaos release, so I bet the boxed set one will be an AoBR-ish version. Nice preview, if you ask me. :)


"Forces of chaos" means mixed i'm assuming. At the least it'll be CSM, the dread being in there confirms that. What could they have that goes with it? Deamons? Cultists? Traitor Guard? Unless the codexes change that when they get redone that makes an awful starter kit.
I'm getting the feeling that we'll see some kind of non-Marine support added in the upcoming Chaos book. Just what it'll be, I don't know, but I can't see GW putting out a boxed set with a split-Codex force inside of it.


That will make a lot of people very happy.
Fo' sure. I've wanted to run non-Marine components in my Word Bearers army for ages now, but haven't been able to do it well. The thought of Codex support for something like that makes me giddy. :D

[DrLove42]

"Having re-read this thread I want to point out that I am only confirming the starter as DA vs chaos NOT the DA & CSM codex release dates. The next 40k releases are :- 'nids, SW, necrons (all models only no codex)"


Wolves? Where did that come from? GW finally releasing Thunderwolves?

[Demonus]

Or at least a Lord on a T Wolf kit. Im perfectly happy with the scratch TWolves I own, but they are all basic marines with bolter and blade. No storm shields!

[Lexington]

Wolves? Where did that come from? GW finally releasing Thunderwolves?
Imagine so. *shudder*

Is there anything else in the range that's missing a model?

[miteyheroes]

Starter box has always been Codex Space Marines. I would bet a Baneblade box that its going to be Codex Space Marines again, too. That said, I really think these release rumors are wrong. As has been stated previously the rumors for months and months have been BT and Tau. DA weren't even on the radar. Also, it makes more sense from abdesign standpoint to bring older codices in line. Things like adjusting point costs for BT to bring them over to standard marine costs and similiar updates for Tau. I just don't see the sense in these rumors at all.

The starters have been Blood Angels vs Orks, Black Templars vs DE, Ultramarines vs Nids, Ultramarines vs Orks? Two out of four have been codex space marines, but half does not equal 'aways'.

But yes, the models have all been fairly plain so they could be any SM chapter. So I can believe that this edition will be Dark Angels, but Dark Angels with fairly plain sculpts that could easily be painted differently.

[DadExtraordinaire]

I didn't think anyone was suggesting there would be two CSM codices? I remember CSM being in a Legions book and then rumours of a WD list for cultists, renegades and perhaps non-alinged CSM. I don't think any of that conflicts with what BoK says.

JJ was quoted at a games day some moons back stating the two CSM books. I believe that was a truthful remark blown out of all proportion from those who are not in the know.........

[Galadren]

The starters have been Blood Angels vs Orks, Black Templars vs DE, Ultramarines vs Nids, Ultramarines vs Orks? Two out of four have been codex space marines, but half does not equal 'aways'.

But yes, the models have all been fairly plain so they could be any SM chapter. So I can believe that this edition will be Dark Angels, but Dark Angels with fairly plain sculpts that could easily be painted differently.

At the time of those releases Blood Angels and Black Templars were Codex chapters.

Just sayin'.

[miteyheroes]

At the time of those releases Blood Angels and Black Templars were Codex chapters.

Just sayin'.

True, fair point. I remember lots of people who'd collected Black Templars as Codex-Marines-In-Cool-Colours getting very confused when Neophytes and stuff were added!

Although there were no codices when the Blood Angels vs Orks box was released...

[wittdooley]

Imagine so. *shudder*

Is there anything else in the range that's missing a model?

Yeah..Wolves WTF? Only things I can think of that are missing from the current line are "official" Fenrisian Wolves (though we all know everyone is simply using the O&G wolves), the cyberwolves (could feasibly be a blister...) and Thunderwolves.

Now, if they did a much needed resculpt of their most Iconic wolf, Ragnar Blackmane, I'll gobble that up in a heartbeat. But any additional T-Wolves will really have to blow me away, as I'm quite happy with my present ones.

[Xenith]

How about:

Dark Angels - Tac squad, ?bikes ?termies

Versus

Chaos - One guy in power armour with robes +/- dual pistols, leading a force of summoned Daemons +/-cultists/fallen guardsmen

There's the story for a mini campaign right from the box.

Space marine players buy the box for cheap space marine whatevers.

Chaos Marines players buy the box for cheap summoned daemons/cultists

Guard players buy the box for cheap guardsmen

Daemon players buy the box for cheap plaguebearers

Everyone buys the box for Cypher.

[Deadlift]

Deathwing Terminators in robes please, I would happily rebuild my Deathwing if that kit was released.

[GrenAcid]

I can belive in starter set with DA vs CSM, and this still can be elite army(DA-termies,bikes) vs horde...you all forgoten about old LaD, and If new chaos will have mutants/traitors and all that awesome stuff back Im going to sell my soul for it.
Starter set like that could work....

[CrimsonTurkey]

I can belive in starter set with DA vs CSM, and this still can be elite army(DA-termies,bikes) vs horde...you all forgoten about old LaD, and If new chaos will have mutants/traitors and all that awesome stuff back Im going to sell my soul for it.
Starter set like that could work....

Selling your soul might be a bit much. The set will be $100 or $120 and a mere kidney would pay for tons of those.

[GrenAcid]

Selling your soul might be a bit much. The set will be $100 or $120 and a mere kidney would pay for tons of those.

After so many drinking nights my is worthless.....but there is kindergarden near my place;)

[Zithaska]

Chaos - One guy in power armour with robes +/- dual pistols, leading a force of summoned Daemons +/-cultists/fallen guardsmen... Everyone buys the box for Cypher.

Isn't Cypher still an Elite choice for Imperial Guard? :eek:

Who's ready to resurrect the old "greatcoat" Guard rumor, finally making their debut as Lost and the Damned? :D

[Lockark]

Can someone who can get onto their website link to whats been said? Their website crashes my computer

Based on the comments on the BoLs front page, i get the feeling it trashes everything that was already established and means there is nothing that isn't power armour this year?

No Tau or Templars, despite massive evidence and rumours of them is, instead DA (based entirely on the fact theres a shoulder pad ont he spine of WD)

If by "massive evidence" you mean someone who admitted to making it all up.

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?331638-The-credibility-of-the-current-wave-of-rumours&p=6062466&viewfull=1#post6062466

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/426967.page

(I know this is more recent news. But after ADB called him out, most people were weary of him. "Codex:Hurd should of sent up red flags anyway.... That and the fact that even his own rumors contradicted each other....)

[GrenAcid]

care little explanation for someone who dosnt follow warseer? that thing about ADB.

[[email protected]]

so are the Tau still getting their update in the first quarter of the year or not? I am either going to play the Tau if they get updated soon or I'm going to give up and play Grey Knights:mad:

[Lockark]

care little explanation for someone who dosnt follow warseer? that thing about ADB.

Was more of a wired cross forum argument, then anything that happened specificity on Warseer. I never found out about it untill recently myself.

http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=102366

Their is some internet drama for you to enjoy.


so are the Tau still getting their update in the first quarter of the year or not? I am either going to play the Tau if they get updated soon or I'm going to give up and play Grey Knights:mad:

Ghost admitted he was lieing this whole time, and none of the more trusted rumour mongers are willing to pin down any Tau releases.

It sounds like we're looking at mostly 2nd waves, Dark Angles, and 6th in summe, with CSM in fall.

The bulk of Tau and Black Templar rumours came from ghost, and anything eals didn't really come from any sort of trusted source as far as I'm aware.

As a friend of mine recently said "So what we can say for sure is 6th ed this summer, and it's going to be filled with rules...."

[DarkLink]

I don't know the whole story since I haven't followed rumors much since I got my new GK codex, but from the links it sounds like ghost21 (who has posted stuff before) got called out by some of the other rumor guys and admitted to making stuff up. Basically:


(Un)fortunately the chances Ghosts21 having had any rumor sources in the first place is rather slim now, after 1. he addmited to have made things up, 2. falsely claimed to be working at GW HQ and 3. being debuked by a very reliable rumor provider. But hope dies last, it seems.


That pretty much throws out the Tau and BT rumors, it seems.



Incidentally, Harry, Hastings, Stickmonkey and TastyTaste are all reliable sources for rumors, particularly Harry and Hastings. There are a few other posters out there, but off the top of my head they're ones who have proven to be very accurate in the past. I think Stickmonkey and TastyTaste are lower on the food chain so their stuff has a few more errors in them, but they're still pretty accurate overall.

[[email protected]]

So then I give up on Tau lol uts not very fun getting rushed the whole game. In my play group there are Space wolves, Chaos Space Marines, Nids, Imperial Guard, and Blood Angels.. So other than those armies and Tau, who should I play as, I'm pretty open to any army.

[HsojVvad]

How about:

Dark Angels - Tac squad, ?bikes ?termies

Versus

Chaos - One guy in power armour with robes +/- dual pistols, leading a force of summoned Daemons +/-cultists/fallen guardsmen

There's the story for a mini campaign right from the box.

Space marine players buy the box for cheap space marine whatevers.

Chaos Marines players buy the box for cheap summoned daemons/cultists

Guard players buy the box for cheap guardsmen

Daemon players buy the box for cheap plaguebearers

Everyone buys the box for Cypher.

To my knowladge a Power Armoured guy in Robes dual wielding pistols never lead a force of summoned Daemons.

[DrLove42]

To my knowladge a Power Armoured guy in Robes dual wielding pistols never lead a force of summoned Daemons.

Not to mention we "know" theres a plastic dread in the box.


If by "massive evidence" you mean someone who admitted to making it all up.


I dont frequent any other forums so thanks for bringing this up.

As Darklink says above, hope dies last. Theres stil "evidence" in the form of the fact neither BT or Tau recieved an FAQ in the last round whereas everyone else did

Maybe I am just clutching at hopeful straws. I don't want my Tau spending a 2nd year in a row in storage

[eldargal]

Ghost21 wasn't the only one talking about BT and Tau, though. Havin said that Harry said Tau weren't as close as people thought, I don't recall him saying anything about BT.

Also re: ghost21:

So what are we to make of Ghost21's "confession" that he's been making up rumors?

It doesn't sounds like a confession, but more as "I'm tired of being picked on, I'm leaving!"

n thats exactly how i meant it,

[Deadlift]

Well whatever happens release wise this year its obviously going to be awesome, I doubt we will see much really in March though, isn't that supposed to be when we hear whats happening to the paint range ?.

[DrLove42]

I'm sure they can do paint and models in the same month

And as to "this year is going to be awesome" If these rumours come true i'm going to have to disagree.

A year of power armour? A power armour vs power armour box set? No models at all so far for any of my armies? A 6th ed rule book which won't be as good as the "leaked" rules were?

2012 is going to suck for me if these rumours pan out

[Deadlift]

I'm sure they can do paint and models in the same month

And as to "this year is going to be awesome" If these rumours come true i'm going to have to disagree.

A year of power armour? A power armour vs power armour box set? No models at all so far for any of my armies? A 6th ed rule book which won't be as good as the "leaked" rules were?

2012 is going to suck for me if these rumours pan out

With the release of 6th and all things related, there must be something this year you might like :) Im am sure there is going to be at least one non power armoured release.

[eldargal]

These rumours are actually the same as the 2007 release schedule but with 6th edition thrown in instead of Apocalypse. Not saying this means it won't happen or anything, but armies aren't usually redone in order like that. Bit of a coincidence.

Depending on what other waves we get, DA and CSM for 2012 will be a pretty dissapointing lineup.

[Deadlift]

Horses for courses then, for me DA and CSM would be just fine, would be nice to see Tau sooner rather than later though.

[Zahariel]

Getting anything to replace the current blandness of my DA's would be very much appreciated, seeing as my other army is SoB! I'm not a fan of other flavours of marines, DA fluff is what drew me in way back in the 90's, and I never really liked Xenos enough to stay with em (tried Tau and Eldar) and the only "bad" army I ever wanted to do was Alpha Legion. Then they went and changed the codex and they became CSM painted a different colour!

So enough waffling, in short if this pans out then 2012 will be a good year for me, not my wallet!

[isotope99]

If my count is correct DA/BT before July would make the list of codices updated during 5Ed:

Imperial: 6.5 out of 8 (SOB only gets a half)
Chaos/Xenos: 3 out of 8

Food for the Imperial bias conspiracy theorists

[Forever_Bunny]

These rumors seem a little to weird for me. Even though Hasting said that the box set is going to be DA vs ?Chaos? (I am thinking Fallen here, but that's just me hoping again. :) ). But a whole year of power armor armies doesn't sound right... Oh well... what do I know GW does what GW does.

[DrLove42]

These rumors seem a little to weird for me. Even though Hasting said that the box set is going to be DA vs ?Chaos? (I am thinking Fallen here, but that's just me hoping again. :) ).

So wait a second...what you want from the starter box is Dark Angels vs Dark Angels?

Or to be more correct dubiously intentioned DA vs possibly wronged DA?

[Lockark]

Ghost21 wasn't the only one talking about BT and Tau, though. Havin said that Harry said Tau weren't as close as people thought, I don't recall him saying anything about BT.

Also re: ghost21:


That's the problem. Once you take out ghost's rumours %98 of the rumours for Tau and Black Templar are gone. A good chunk of what was left, came from alot of fresh faced rumor mongers who felt like they were latching onto ghost.

Also Ghost back tracking like that, makes him look worst now in all honesty. After the ADP incident this bassicly means ghost is really childish at best, or a lier at worst.

=U

If people questioning how accruet his and other's rumours are on the internet get's him upset, he really should stop rumor mongering anyway. Regardless of if his rumours were true or not. Anyone who reaches a certain level of internet noriritiy needs to have a pretty thick skin in general.
=/

[Forever_Bunny]

So wait a second...what you want from the starter box is Dark Angels vs Dark Angels?

Or to be more correct dubiously intentioned DA vs possibly wronged DA?

What I want form the box set is just one army vs one army NOT one army vs mix of other armies ( I guess I should of just said that.) That why I can use the whole box set ( if it's DA vs Fallen or DA vs CSM) or just half the box set (DA vs Eldar just for an example) I am not instead in the box set price if I just getting one or two thing form it that I might use or need.

I am sorry if that doesn't make senses I haven't gotten much sleep with the baby.

[Lockark]

What I want form the box set is just one army vs one army NOT one army vs mix of other armies ( I guess I should of just said that.) That why I can use the whole box set ( if it's DA vs Fallen or DA vs CSM) or just half the box set (DA vs Eldar just for an example) I am not instead in the box set price if I just getting one or two thing form it that I might use or need.

I am sorry if that doesn't make senses I haven't gotten much sleep with the baby.

I have not seen anything to suggest the starter set isn't going to be one army vs. one army.... Their has been suggestions of new units/options from a new chaos book, included in the starter set. (That's how I understood it anyway.)

[Forever_Bunny]

I have not seen anything to suggest the starter set isn't going to be one army vs. one army.... Their has been suggestions of new units/options from a new chaos book, included in the starter set. (That's how I understood it anyway.)

I know all the rumors say that it's going to be DA vs All of Chaos (CSM, Daemons, and maybe Legion of Damned)..But I can still hope...:D

[andrewm9]

If these new rumors are true, my GW budget just dropped quite a bit. I will be picking up 6th edition, but nothing else because I collect none of those armies and don't plan to. Hopefully a new edition will breathe some life into my Sisters army. I find the current list under 5th ed rules to be lifeless and lackluster.You can win with it but the army is not exciting to play at all.