Heavy Weapon teams =-1 Attack

[heretic marine]

i play IG and field heavy weapon teams. now a 10 squad without a heavy weapon team that assaults gets 21 attacks in cc the extra 1 comes from the Sargent, but if you have a Heavy weapon team you only get 20 attacks is this right or did i miss something, i mean there still is 10 guys but you lose an attack for having a heavy weapon team. now i know they have the heavy weapon, but they would just drop it and attack right.

[lobster-overlord]

The HWT counts as only one model for any modifier purposes. 2 wounds, 2 attacks base. Previously, a loader was a separate guy from the gunner and a separate casualty, and even had a lasrifle still in one army list, but now, you lose the extra shot, as well as the extra cc attack. Now, you count them as one for allocation of hits as well.

[heretic marine]

yes i know that. it just doesn't make sense there is still 2 guys. i just hope they change that in 6ED

[faolan]

It makes perfect sense, but since you're the guy who was asking if moving artillery UP a building wall was possible or would slow it down, I can see why you can't quite grasp the fine points of this.

[thecactusman17]

One guy is carrying the Lascannon or whatever. There is no difficulty in comprehending that one member of the squad is still manning the heavy gun.

[Wolfshade]

You have the same issue with space marine attack bikes historically, the biker and gunner were two different models and so when they assaulted they had bonuses applied to them as being individuals rather than one unit. But then again historically a heavy weapon would give you a -1 to your assault score. I hope we do not go back there...

[heretic marine]

It makes perfect sense, but since you're the guy who was asking if moving artillery UP a building wall was possible or would slow it down, I can see why you can't quite grasp the fine points of this.

not a wall, stairs or a sloped building or like when your guys are inside a building you roll you move through cover test and if you get a high enough roll you can move up a level in the building, but a wall heck no.
and as for the guys still manning the gun, you would drop the gun to assault not just sit there going hey whats up.

[dannyat2460]

not a wall, stairs or a sloped building or like when your guys are inside a building you roll you move through cover test and if you get a high enough roll you can move up a level in the building, but a wall heck no.
and as for the guys still manning the gun, you would drop the gun to assault not just sit there going hey whats up.

thats why the heavy weapon team gets A2 as it is representing 2 normal guardsmen who are responsible for manning a heavy weapon. so your 20 single man unit with sgt gets 21 total (22 with CC weapons on sgt) and if you upgrade the 2 normal guardsmen to a heavy weapon team you still have 21 total (22 with CC weapons on sgt) just now you have a 2 wound model in there with a heavy weapon

[heretic marine]

thats why the heavy weapon team gets A2 as it is representing 2 normal guardsmen who are responsible for manning a heavy weapon. so your 20 single man unit with sgt gets 21 total (22 with CC weapons on sgt) and if you upgrade the 2 normal guardsmen to a heavy weapon team you still have 21 total (22 with CC weapons on sgt) just now you have a 2 wound model in there with a heavy weapon

with a 10 man squad with out the heavy weapon team and a sarg with a pistol + CC wep you get 23 attacks. the heavy weapon team is a single model and if you assault each model gets +1 A. so you lose an attack. oh, and guys please don't get angry this is just a discussion.

[DWest]

I think a better question is "why are you assaulting if you have an HWT?" A squad in a Chimera isn't going to get to fire their heavy often, and since you can't Rapid Fire and Assault, if it's a squad on foot with an enemy unit nearby you're better off just popping "First Rank Fire, Second Rank Fire" and mowing down the enemies that way.

[heretic marine]

I think a better question is "why are you assaulting if you have an HWT?" A squad in a Chimera isn't going to get to fire their heavy often, and since you can't Rapid Fire and Assault, if it's a squad on foot with an enemy unit nearby you're better off just popping "First Rank Fire, Second Rank Fire" and mowing down the enemies that way.

i play a DKOK army list, and i almost always assault with my engineering squads the turn they come in. i give them the mole mortar because: 1 i love it and 2 it has been really affective in the past.
here is what i do i get the breaching drill in on the 2ed turn use it to destroy a heavy unit. on turn 3 the engineers come in and destroy the heavy units support units by shooting shotguns and using the gas grenades when i assault. then on turn 4 i use the mole mortars to get the other player to move his guys out of cover i still shoot with my shotguns, now it is turn 5 they are out of cover to kill my drill and engineers, but my 2 squads of storm troopers are here to save the day and kill the guys that are out of cover. this has worked for me 3 out of 4 times. i can post my army list if you want me to.

[Shotgun Justice]

I don't play Guard, but my favourite opponent does and I think the heavy weapon team rules are garbage.

I generally suggest that he simply upgrade one model to carry a HW, swapping his lasgun for it. I don't see why there should be a loss of an attack and why a single autocannon shot can somehow kill 2 guardsmen (even if the rules treat them as 1 model).
Are there rules in the codex on base size? I don't believe that any rules state you must swap 2 infantry bases for a single 60mm base, they have a negative impact on movement and placement and are a pain in the hole for deploying from a transport, deep striking, assault moves and template weapons.

Although we also house rule that an embarked unit can fire at a different target to its transport, making chimeras even more ridiculous than they already are, so where's the sense in any of it
rules error corrected below

[dannyat2460]

Although we also house rule that an embarked unit can fire at a different target to its transport, making chimeras even more ridiculous than they already are, so where's the sense in any of it


err this is an actual rule not a house rule,

and as for the 60mm bases been daft yes it does make it more difficult but been able to cause instant death on the model does make sence it represents the weapon been hit and destroyed and the ammo detonating and killing the crew,

[Shotgun Justice]

"Q: Must passengers fire at the same target that their
vehicle is firing at? (p66)
A: No, they are a separate unit (albeit they are
temporarily co-existing with the vehicle) and so can fire
at a different target."

Rulebook FAQ v1 05.01.12 p5.
Aha- I missed that FAQ and had been playing this way since 5th came out. No difference then. Was that a 4th ed rule hangover I'm still carrying?

I don't buy the dangerous heavy weapon argument though, it's not true for any other imperial troops: Servitors, SoB, Marines nor for heavy flamers in veteran & command squads.
It's also not true for splinter cannons, dark lances, guardian weapon platforms, 'eavy shootas, venom cannons nor any artillery. I reckon a heavy flamer fuel cannister is much more dangerous than a lascannon power pack.
It's just a daft re-write of the 2nd ed introduction of Guard weapons teams added to the latter codification of units and bases. It's a struggle to get a Mordian lascannon, for example, onto an infantry base with its firer, so just sling em on a bigger base.

[MaxKool]

Am I missing somthing here or is the OP actualy suggesting that loosing a single str3 crap attack for packing a heavy wep is more than a REEEEELY minor anoyance....?

...................


Realy?


Anyone ive mentioned this to has laughed heartily at it and said one doesnt matter....

There are TONNES of little things like this in the game, and while they are an anoyance they are a very minor one. I cant think of too manytimes where a single str3 attack would have won me the game...
and ive played de for 8 years... lots of str3...

Dont sweat it mate.... its a trade off in that in 1/3 of games u get to place a platoon down and I get a raider or venom of dudes.... Cant have it all.... ;)

an Auto cannon fires 2 rounds with one shot(how i dont know think of it as 2 fired in quick succession) , not both will hit in the exact same spot... its totaly concivable one shot can take out a gunner and loader... they are normaly right near eachother...

[heretic marine]

Am I missing somthing here or is the OP actualy suggesting that loosing a single str3 crap attack for packing a heavy wep is more than a REEEEELY minor anoyance....?

...................


Realy?


Anyone ive mentioned this to has laughed heartily at it and said one doesnt matter....

There are TONNES of little things like this in the game, and while they are an anoyance they are a very minor one. I cant think of too manytimes where a single str3 attack would have won me the game...
and ive played de for 8 years... lots of str3...

Dont sweat it mate.... its a trade off in that in 1/3 of games u get to place a platoon down and I get a raider or venom of dudes.... Cant have it all.... ;)

an Auto cannon fires 2 rounds with one shot(how i dont know think of it as 2 fired in quick succession) , not both will hit in the exact same spot... its totaly concivable one shot can take out a gunner and loader... they are normaly right near eachother...

yes i know it is not that great, but i have killed termies with a single S3 attack:eek:. I also like good discussions like we have going right now;).

[Anggul]

Why does this thread still exist? Kill it, please.

[Tynskel]

Why does this thread still exist? Kill it, please.

No!
I will champion this thread!

Moar attacks for the Heavy Weapon's teams!

[Wildeybeast]

Why does this thread still exist? Kill it, please.

Probably because people like you and Tynskel (and now me) keep making pointless posts on it and bringing it to the top of the forum list. :D

[thecactusman17]

I shall challenge Tynskel! More threads for the mods to go through!

No, really, this thread is done.

[Tynskel]

Hey, you are supposed to stay on topic.

Moar attacks for the Heavy Weapons Teams!