Mindshackle Single Models?

[FTE-Charge!!!]

When faced with a single model, what affect do Mindshackle Scarabs have?

Does the model attack itself, or just simply miss its chance to attack if it fails the leadership test?

So far I have been allowing the model to not attack.

[thecactusman17]

The affected model attacks their own unit. Their unit is one model, themselves. It's very cut and dried.

Having said that, other similar abilities sometimes prevent the afflicted from offing themselves. So perhaps it will be FAQ'd. But read as worded, yes a model can and will attack itself.

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

Yep, they'll attack themselves. Seems kinda silly that a Lone Wolf can make a Storm Shield save against his own Thunder Hammer :P But them's tha rules (Perhaps he, attempting to fight off such an inglorious death wills his shield up against the possessed hammer-arm).

[s_harrington]

Yep, they'll attack themselves. Seems kinda silly that a Lone Wolf can make a Storm Shield save against his own Thunder Hammer :P But them's tha rules (Perhaps he, attempting to fight off such an inglorious death wills his shield up against the possessed hammer-arm).

Thank you.
Bringing an image to mind of Ash and his hand in Evil Dead was good for a chuckle.
Well written sir!

[The Twilight Fade]

A screamer killer carnifex attacking itself presents a funny image in my minds eye.

Other than that there is no restriction on it attacking itself as it is its own unit but we will see what happens when the FAQ comes out. It is overdue now, I wanna know if writhing worldscape combines with Orikan so badly!!

[MaltonNecromancer]

A screamer killer carnifex attacking itself presents a funny image in my minds eye.

Not to me. Reminds me of the "bibbing" scene in season 7 of "Supernatural", where the Big Bad forces a minion who has failed to eat itself. That was quite funny, but also quite nasty.

I must confess, I would love to see a game where someone succeeds with mindshackles on someone like Calgar. That would be satisfying.

[Caldera02]

No it doesn't work that way. Look at psychtroke grenades for a perfect example. If the model is by himself you re roll. Why? Cause there is no unit to attack! You can't attack yourself unless some special rule specifically says so. And this is not one of those.

[The Twilight Fade]

As mentioned elsewhere previously though, the psychotroke grenades specifically disallow it from working on single models where the mindshackle scarabs have no such restriction.

Just as FAQ's for different races are inconsistant this should be treated completely seperatly until an FAQ says otherwise

[Archon Charybdis]

The Twilight Fade is correct, psychotroke grenades are specifically restricted from affecting single model units. In the absence of such a restriction (or FAQ), we simply need to refer to the book definition of "unit" which applies regardless of whether the unit is a single model or thirty models.

[Slug]

Caldera, you really are arguing from a, I don't think it's right point of view therefore it's not. The rules say a single model is a unit, mindshackle scarabs cause a model to attack it's unit, not other models in it's unit, but the unit in general, hence there is no point where a distinction between one model and ten being in the unit is made. Your example of the grenades only reinforces the point that you can have a model attack itself, otherwise why would they have put a specific exclusion in GK but not crons. There is no rule saying a single model can't attack its'self, quote it and I take that back ( not having a rule book for the next few weeks I can't confirm this, but I have no memory at all of any such rule.)

Both in this thread and the other http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?t=18650&page=3 you have said a rule must be required to allow a model to attack itself, this has been provided via the fact a unit can consist of a single model and the attacks are against the unit. Another example was given where the model can hit itself when there are two or three models in the unit. You insist that a rule must be used to allow a model to hit itself which would imply that there is a rule stating that a model can't hit itself, yet you won't quote said rule and until you can it is not a valid point, so even needing to prove a way for the model to hit itself via it being part of the unit is moot anyway.

You just said "there is no unit to attack" which is wrong, and has been proven beyond a doubt.

Another point, you said that it is like you controlling that model, there is no rule supporting this at all, that is a fabricated interpretation with nothing substantial to back it up. The model is not in assault with its own unit, this is not an assault and you do not control the enemy model. It only attacks D3 times against its own unit, whether that be 20, 10, 3, 2, or 1 model(s).

Your only arguments so far have either been It doesn't make sense, which is not a rules argument, this is people trying to rule lawyer wargear into soemthing it's not, even though every argument presented for this has been based on solid readingsnot interpretations of rules, or the GK grenades which specifically say they don't allow a model to attack itself, which would strongly indicate that the GK example is an exemption to normal rules not the norm otherwise the point would have been an FAQ not a rule.

Sorry for repeating a few points here and there, but hopefully that and hte other thread clear up why you can have a model attack itself based on actual rules and zero interpretation. I'm not saying you can't play that way if you want Caldera, but it would be a house FAQ not the actual rule.

[Caldera02]

So with this rules interpretation, lets say I have a Ravager surrounded by a mob of orks. Now I have three shots to shoot at them so can kill max of three, but oh wait I can shoot my own ravager with said ravager and blow myself up causing more damage? Is that truely the logic we are going on here or am I missing something? That is essentially the line of reasoning I am getting from the argument.

[Slug]

That honestly made as much sense, and had as much relevance as me saying, there is a model for titans therefore I can use them in any games I want.

Please explain how what you just said has nay baring on the rule we are arguing, I asked you to quote a specific rule that is oh so fundamental to your argument which you at no point have quoted, not to come up with random posts. This smacks of desperation, you really don't want to lose this argument, but with no rules to back up your point you turn to trying to throw in random ideas in the off chance someone might get so confused as to give up.

There is no interpretation here, we are going purely by the rules. you however are not using rules, just vague ideas about what you think is right. Even after 3 reading of your post I con only get a slight idea of what you are trying to say (that you can attack yourself) which is moot anyway as the two situations are totally different. Quote where it says a model can under no circumstance attack itself and I will change my mind on the issue, until then you have no argument.

[Caldera02]

I don't have my rulebook with me either so no qouting as you have said. The example I gave is pretty clear if you just read it. By your logic, I can attack myself with my own model and get the result I want. So where does it say I can't do that?

[MaltonNecromancer]

As mentioned elsewhere previously though, the psychotroke grenades specifically disallow it from working on single models where the mindshackle scarabs have no such restriction.

Just as FAQ's for different races are inconsistant this should be treated completely seperatly until an FAQ says otherwise

This.

Frankly, I see no problem with Mindshackle Scarabs causing someone to kill themselves:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mt0pNGSTPV4&feature=related

[Nachodragon]

Caldera02, for shooting, the BRB states:
"Check line of sight and pick a target. Pick one of your units, check its line of sight and choose a target for it. All models in the unit that can see at least one enemy model in the target unit may open fire."
No, you cannot shoot a Ravager with itself, or any unit cannot shoot itself with their own guns. This is a normal rule.

Mindshackle is a separate entity that has its own rule and quite clearly states what it does. This is outside of any other rule that you can think of and nothing else has any baring on it. If you are not imaginative enough to think of how a model could injure itself with its own weapons, that is your own problem.

[Caldera02]

Oh sure I can imagine just fine. Abbadon does it but he has his own rule that states what happens. Kharn also has a similar rule where he can hurt his own unit, but he doesn't hurt himself. Your right about the shooting restriction, I didn't have the rulebook in front of me for that.

This is another case of the book doesn't say you can or can't do this. Unless someone can show me where it says you can attack yourself. Of course an FAQ will show what their intent is, which I believe I am correct on. We will see though.

[Caldera02]

So looking through the rulebook now, I can't find any reference to being able to hit yourself. It's all enemy based. So the question is, when mind shackle goes off, does your own unit now become the enemy? Cause now your comparing your WS vs theirs and rolling to hit and wound vs them right? That would mean he is not part of the unit.

[Angelofblades]

So looking through the rulebook now, I can't find any reference to being able to hit yourself. It's all enemy based. So the question is, when mind shackle goes off, does your own unit now become the enemy? Cause now your comparing your WS vs theirs and rolling to hit and wound vs them right? That would mean he is not part of the unit.

No, I think you need to read the MS rule caldera02...

There is no WS comparison, it's simply the unit suffers D3 attacks and can use properties of the weapon.

The real question is whether it can be used to activate force weapons.

My personal opinion on this is a solid "No."

Since you can't force the model to perform a psychic test, only to allow it's unit to suffer D3 hits.

[Caldera02]

Is it D3 hits or attacks....significant because one implies attacking the other just means it goes off.

I also agree on the force weapon activation.

[Necron_Lord]

It's D3 hits. It also states that the affected model strikes out at his allies. That is what makes me think that it cannot be used on single model units or it affects them by making them not able to attack that round unless there is another unit of his army (model affected by mindshackle scarabs) in that CC. RAW I see where people are saying that if Mephiston is affected he attacks himself.

However, the Power from Pain rule in the DE Codex allows units to receive Pain Tokens even if they don't have that rule RAW. The FAQ later states that the unit has to have that rule to benefit from Pain Tokens and only those models with that rule receive the benefits. I am of the opinion that something similar will happen to Mindshackle Scarabs. However, I do hope that they can work on models like Mephiston in that he has to pass a Ld test to attack, but the attacking himself business I think will disappear.

[Nachodragon]

I think the biggest issue when looking at rules is determining where the fluff/flavor text ends and the rule begins.
Stating that a someone strikes out against their allies, deals with a huge percentage of the battles with this particular rule and lends to better visuals about what happens. But, the rule is explicit about how it works, regardless of what the fluff/flavor text actually is.

Also, I thought I read something in fluff of one of the characters and mindshackle scarabs came into play. Possibly Trazyn? Will need to look for that but I thought they struck out at whatever, basically going crazy, and crazy people can definitely hurt themselves.

[Necron_Lord]

RAW I am cool with having single model units attacking themselves, but I am just saying that I would not be surprised that this will change when the FAQ comes out. As a matter of fact, I would be surprised if it wasn't changed. I think we're in the period when Dark Eldar players had pain tokens giving beasts FNP, etc. except for the Necrons now. We shall see ...

[Slug]

I wouldn't be surprised if it did get FAQ'd, but until then, the rule says you can, so we will see what happens.

[Caldera02]

So the FAQ is out now. I will be inserting foot in mouth now.


Another example of how Gdub rules one way on a rule and turns around and rules another for a different codex. Cest la vie.

Neil, you can still suck it! :P

[Slug]

Ah, there was always an argument both ways, the main thing is that in this case the fluff makes more sense for the model to be able to then for GK grenades for example, as the affected person has given up control, the Necrons aren't going to be fussed over getting him hurt.

Though, it is a shame they didn't clarify whether you can use force weapons.

[Angelofblades]

Stricktly speaking, from a RAW point of view, it made sense. The wording of MS specifically stated Unit. Personally, I had no issue with single model units attacking themselve.

The real issue imho, was whether MS could force a model to activate it's Force Weapon, if applicable. Something the FAQ definately didn't mention

[Caldera02]

Well just saying that because it says attacks its own unit still doesn't mean himself. I still say the book doesn't cover that kind of thing RAW but the FAQ makes it a moot point.

Anyways, I believe the other part of the wording for MS is inflicts D3 attacks on the unit right? Does it say, using all the properties of the wielder? kind of like how the sweep attacks are worded?

[Angelofblades]

Well just saying that because it says attacks its own unit still doesn't mean himself. I still say the book doesn't cover that kind of thing RAW but the FAQ makes it a moot point.

Anyways, I believe the other part of the wording for MS is inflicts D3 attacks on the unit right? Does it say, using all the properties of the wielder? kind of like how the sweep attacks are worded?

iirc, it says properties of the weapon, IE Power weapon, Power fist, Thunder Hammer ,etc.

So when it comes to Force Weapon, you obviously get the PW part of the Force Weapon, or the Nemesis part of a Nemesis force weapon (wounded daemons or psykers take a LD test or die), but can you activate a Force Weapon to cause Instant Death with MS?

[FlangeNabber]

iirc, it says properties of the weapon, IE Power weapon, Power fist, Thunder Hammer ,etc.

So when it comes to Force Weapon, you obviously get the PW part of the Force Weapon, or the Nemesis part of a Nemesis force weapon (wounded daemons or psykers take a LD test or die), but can you activate a Force Weapon to cause Instant Death with MS?

I would say this is pretty clear, you get D3 attacks with the weapons abilities and effects so if your a psyker you better make that leadership test. Activating a force weapon however is a seperate action to attacking with it so IMHO I'd definitely so no.

But then, what if the owning player choose to activate the force weapon themself? This could be useful for leaving the Crons in the open for the following shooting phase. Can anyone see a rule preventing that? Lol