Chapter Champion

[VulkansApprentice]

Ok, I'm going crazy here. I've been going back and forth over the options for Honor Guard, and I just can't shake what the option for a Chapter Champion to replace his bolter with a combat blade is for. I know that Calgar has double fists and a power sword, and he can choose to forgo the fists for attacks at initiative with the sword. But reading through the options for the champion I'm coming up with the following;

-He is already armed with a power weapon, pistol, and bolter, base.

-ANY MODEL has the option to TAKE a relic blade, not REPLACE something with a relic blade, so taking the upgrade would give him a relic blade, bolter, pistol, and power weapon.

-Now I can understand that if he had to REPLACE his power sword with the relic blade that he would be down to a bolter, relic blade, and pistol. Now he would only have his base attacks with the relic. However, if he replaced the bolter with the blade he could have 3 attacks at S6 with the relic, or 4 attacks (non-S6 non-PW)) with the pistol and combat blade. (I guess useful for an extra attack against horde? Though I'd rather have the sure kills from the relic)

-But seeing as how he already has the relic blade and bolter and pistol and PW, why need the blade? Is it only if he REPLACES his PW with a TH, then he would need the blade to double with pistol, so he could then attack at initiative?

Is there any other reason for the combat blade, or am I just driving myself crazy over nothing?

Also, what sense does it make that a company champion gets a combat shield, when the chapter champion can't?

[Gotthammer]

Looks cool ;)

Mostly to match up with the models I'd imagine. The comp champion gets one in the box, so he still needs the option (like assault sgts). I'm not familiar with the Chapter Champion model but I imagine he has a sword and knife (or axe and knife).

[EmperorEternalXIX]

The combat blade plus his pistol would give him an extra attack, just like it does for a scout.

This is my theory: You take the relic blade, the combat blade, etc. It gives him +1 attack. But the rules state you only use one of your special CC weapons and that all of your attacks gain the benefits of it.

So he basically can get +1 attack and that extra attack is usable to add another swing to the Relic Blade.

This is of course retarded beyond comparison, because he is now offensively ten times better than a Chapter Master. But...technically, as far as I can tell, this is legally how it happens.

[Nabterayl]

The combat blade plus his pistol would give him an extra attack, just like it does for a scout.

This is my theory: You take the relic blade, the combat blade, etc. It gives him +1 attack. But the rules state you only use one of your special CC weapons and that all of your attacks gain the benefits of it.
All the benefits and all the penalties, don't forget - see page 1 of the rulebook errata (http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2030054_40k_Rulebook_March_2009.pdf). So if you're equipped with a relic blade, a pistol, and a combat blade, and you're using the relic blade's advantages, you're also subject to its restrictions - namely, that it's a two-handed weapon, and thus cannot claim the +1A bonus for using two one-handed weapons. On the other hand, you could arguably not use the relic blade and get the extra attack.*

VulkansApprentice has it right, though, I think - the only time you'd ever want to have the combat blade is if you had replaced the power sword with a thunder hammer, in which case you might choose to have an extra attack and strike at Initiative.

* There is, of course, a debate as to whether you can choose not to use a special weapon if you have a special weapon and two non-special weapons. If you and your group swing a certain way, then there is never a point to replacing the champion's bolter with a combat blade, because he can never choose to use it. Which is among the reasons I don't interpret page 35 that way, but that is a different thread (http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?t=1107) - possibly two (http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?t=1170).

[DarkLink]

You definitely cannont get +1A with the Relic Blade. Additionally, I believe the way the special weapon rules are worded require you to use whatever special weapons you have (so a Sargent with a powerfist must use the powerfist), though I'd check the rules before you took my word for that.

I see no flaw in the logic you give in the OP, and since you can pick which special weapons you use, it is entirely possible for you to take a Relic blade, but choose to use the Power weapon insetead, as you get +1A with it.

The combat blade is pretty much useless, though.

[EmperorEternalXIX]

What about something like a Thunder Hammer? You can give him a Thunder Hammer; that wouldn't get the +1 A either, right?

[Nabterayl]

What about something like a Thunder Hammer? You can give him a Thunder Hammer; that wouldn't get the +1 A either, right?

Thunder Hammer + CCW does not get an extra attack, no. As for whether you can use pistol and CCW when you are equipped with a thunder hammer, pistol, and CCW, personally I think that's up for debate, though I believe the consensus view is that you can't.

[Rapture]

Thunder Hammer + CCW does not get an extra attack, no. As for whether you can use pistol and CCW when you are equipped with a thunder hammer, pistol, and CCW, personally I think that's up for debate, though I believe the consensus view is that you can't.

If you have multiple weapons that conflict you get to choose which ones to use.

Ex. Either the thunder hammer for 3 attacks or the sword and pistol for 4 attacks.

At least I think that is what the rule book says...

[Fowlplaychiken]

You definitely cannont get +1A with the Relic Blade. Additionally, I believe the way the special weapon rules are worded require you to use whatever special weapons you have (so a Sargent with a powerfist must use the powerfist), though I'd check the rules before you took my word for that.

I see no flaw in the logic you give in the OP, and since you can pick which special weapons you use, it is entirely possible for you to take a Relic blade, but choose to use the Power weapon insetead, as you get +1A with it.

The combat blade is pretty much useless, though.


Actually this came up at the local GW store lately and the ruling from all 3 employees (manager included) was that you can, indeed, opt to not use a piece of wargear like a power fist, in essence turning it off so that you can strike at initiative. Not often someone would choose to do this however

[Nabterayl]

If you have multiple weapons that conflict you get to choose which ones to use.

Ex. Either the thunder hammer for 3 attacks or the sword and pistol for 4 attacks.

At least I think that is what the rule book says...

The rulebook is ambiguous; it only ever explicitly contemplates two [one-handed] weapons. I think the consensus is that if you have three special weapons, you get to choose which two you use (see this thread (http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?t=1107)). The wording of page 35, however, leaves it ambiguous as to whether your choice is constrained if you have one special and two non-special weapons (see this thread (http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?t=1170)).


Actually this came up at the local GW store lately and the ruling from all 3 employees (manager included) was that you can, indeed, opt to not use a piece of wargear like a power fist, in essence turning it off so that you can strike at initiative. Not often someone would choose to do this however

If that's what they thought, they need to go back and re-read page 35, I suspect. This is one of those changes from 4th edition to 5th. In 4th edition you could explicitly "turn off" special weapons. In 5th edition you can't - if you have a power fist and a bolt pistol, for instance, you must use the power fist. If you have a power fist, a bolt pistol, and a chainsword, there's some ambiguity - and if you have a power fist, a power sword, and a poisoned weapon, more ambiguity still.

[EmperorEternalXIX]

I don't know.

If I am incorrect in my assumptions then this weapon has literally pretty much no benefit. If it is there for the sake of the power weapon then it's pointless because the power weapon and the pistol will give it +1A anyway.

So as far as I can tell I have to be at least on the right line of thinking on this. Otherwise it is literally meaningless.

[Nabterayl]

I don't know.

If I am incorrect in my assumptions then this weapon has literally pretty much no benefit. If it is there for the sake of the power weapon then it's pointless because the power weapon and the pistol will give it +1A anyway.

So as far as I can tell I have to be at least on the right line of thinking on this. Otherwise it is literally meaningless.

You have correctly divined the two options. As page 35 says, "All engaged models will fight in this turn's Assault phase with their full number of Attacks and use any special close combat attack they have." That makes it clear that if your only options are "use a power fist or use a regular CCW" you must use the power fist (or the power sword, or poisoned weapon, or witchblade, or whatever).

Page 42 gives the rules for using two single-handed close combat weapons, but it doesn't make clear what you do when you have three single-handed close combat weapons to pick from. Most people seem to agree that as long as all possible options include a special weapon (e.g., you have a power fist, a power sword, and a bolt pistol) you get to pick which two you're using and go from there - this way, you are still using a special close combat attack, as page 35 requires.

The rules question is what happens when you have three weapons and one option doesn't include a special weapon (e.g., power fist, bolt pistol, combat blade). Can you, without violating page 35's requirement to use "any special close combat attack [you] have," decide to use the pistol and blade? To put it another way, does the fact that those two weapons give you +1A qualify it as a "special close combat attack" for purposes of page 35?

From a linguistic standpoint it's easy to see the argument that it doesn't. Myself, I don't think reading the BRB in a way that makes post-BRB codices meaningless is what RAW really means. I'm fine with reading the BRB in a way that makes some options in pre-BRB codices useless. But I think it's silly to read the BRB in a way that makes post-BRB codex options meaningless, if there is another option, in the name of RAW.

EDIT: Another reason I swing for "two non-special one-handed CCWs count as a special close combat attack" is because if a model were armed with a power fist and a one-handed CCW whose rules explicitly granted +1A, I think it would be pretty clear that the +1A sword qualified as a "special close combat attack" for page 35 purposes. That being the case, it seems silly to me to say that two regular CCWs, which together have the exact same effect, don't qualify as a special close combat attack.

[DarkLink]

The BRB has a set of rules on what special close combat attacks are, and two standard close combat weapons are not. 'Cause, ya know, they're standard close combat weapons. Getting an extra attack is just getting an extra attack; that attack has no special properties that would make it a special weapon.

[Nabterayl]

The BRB has a set of rules on what special close combat attacks are, and two standard close combat weapons are not. 'Cause, ya know, they're standard close combat weapons. Getting an extra attack is just getting an extra attack; that attack has no special properties that would make it a special weapon.

No, the BRB has a set of rules on what special close combat weapons are. That same page has a section for what happens when you're fighting with two normal close combat weapons. Since that situation has special rules, it arguably qualifies as a special attack.

I understand how this seems lawyer-y, but in this case I prefer sounding like a lawyer to saying that a post-5th edition codex has an option that has no in-game effect.

[DarkLink]

Yeah, I misspoke (mistyped?) on the attacks vs weapons thing. I'm still not buying it. When I read the rule, it sounds to me as though one of the weapons selected must be a special weapon. Even if an extra normal weapon grants an extra "special" attack, it is still a normal weapon, and as such does not meet the qualifications. And I don't think that just because there is a single option in a single codex that is effectively useless with respect to the close combat weapon rules means that we need to rethink how the rules work. GW just made a funny mistake. It's not like it's never happened before. It doesn't change the rules, and I think you're grasping as straws in this case.

Of course, it doen't matter too much. It's pretty rare to not want to use your special weapons and have three different potentially viable combinations of weapons to pick from like this.

[Denzark]

On the faqs/errata on the gw website there is an errata: http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2030054_40k_Rulebook_March_2009.pdf

Which says all attacks use the special weapon penalties etc.

Does this help?

Don't now myself as I am half druink as I write this.

[Inquisitor Malaclypse]

i read that as saying that you can't opt to use a normal or special ccw: you must always use the power fist/sword, witchblade, etc.

in the grim darkness of the future are there no scabbards, sheaths, gun straps, holsters?:D

[EmperorEternalXIX]

Bottom line: There is a rule saying you use your "full attacks"... and there is a rule saying you have to use "special weapon" traits for all attacks. So that means that what I said originally is true...having +1A is a statline bonus, and what weapon traits you use when attacking is relative to what weapon you have.

It is relative to the wording of the rules for two ccws giving +1A. If it says "A model equipped with 2 close combat weapons..." or "A model carrying 2 close combat weapons..." vs. "A model using two close combat weapons in an assault...", then this will grant +1A for Champs with stuff like a Thunder Hammer.

The relic blade specifically says it may never gain the advantage but thunder hammers can (and do, if you equip two of them). The wording of these rules would also play into this, as well, however.

[Xas]

guys you are reading to much into it.

the combat knife is not needed for rules. just so he matches with one of the (old) models that comes with calgar.

its another reason why many people think smurfs are for noobs. the knife option is there so noone can say one of the modells in calgars box i illgal :)

everyone should know that you can modell anyone with an additional knife if you want but meh ...