Vanilla Preds, are they worth it?

[Infinite Freedom]

As the the thread title states, I am curious if the Predators in the standard Space Marine Codex worth it or should I look at something else for that empty HS slot?

[SotonShades]

Personnally I like them. Never rated them without sponsons, but might just be my play style. I've also never made them work multi-role, so either TL lascannon and heavy Bolters or Autocannon and lascannons.

So I guess I am recommending either Autocannon/HB as an infantry hunter, or triple lascannon tank hunter (my personnal favourite) dedicated tank. They can both excel at their roles, but they will be a fire magnet if you don't have another unit capable of filling out that role as well.

A lot of people prefer Devastator Squads, partly because you get up to 4 weapons rather than 3 (with maybe a one shot missile) and they are much less likely to be killed by a single shot. I also love taking vindicators (partly because my marines are siege specialists, same as the Imperial Fists) for the shear threat value despite it being somewhat mitigated by the rise of melta.

To sum up; worth taking? Yes, but make sure you have another option that can peform the same role so they don't become a fire magnet. How to take them? Dedicated to one role so you aren't wasting fire. Better than other HS options? Depends entirely what else you have in the list and your style of play.

[Infinite Freedom]

I play a defensive strategy with a couple squads acting offensively. The other HS slots are currently taken up by a Las/Missile Dev Squad and an HB/Plas Dev squad. The empty slot would be taken up by a Crusader, but it's DT for my THSS Terminators.

[thecactusman17]

Hmm. Your forces seem rather well balanced for dealing with heavily mechanized units at range, a fine representation of a siege style army. I would suggest taking the Autocannon / Heavy Bolter setup to deal with entrenched infantry, and if you have points left over I might suggest taking Sgt. Chronus as an entertaining and thematically appropriate upgrade. That's a lot of shooting to hit on 2s with.

[Infinite Freedom]

If I drop the melta bike squad I should have the points. Them or the Dred in the Drop Pod.

[Defenestratus]

Standard SM Codex predators are a bit limited by the still retarded vehicle movement/shooting rules. The blood angels variant is well worth it however with its ability to move 6" and still shoot everything.

I feel that you're probably better served by a devastator squad IMO if you're using the vanilla codex.

[Infinite Freedom]

Got two already

[thecactusman17]

I think that Blood Angels are a little limited by everything, in the sense that you have to focus on a theme (all tanks, all dreads, or all jump) and you can't really deviate from it and come out with a winning list. They do a get a benefit for their preds, but at the cost of less cost effective Dev squads and other heavy weapon units.

For the point cost, the base autocannon pred with HB sponsons is a great buy with decent anti-tank vs. light armor and the ability to put out a huge number of wounds on anything it points at, including lone models.

[Root]

I never play Vanilla Marines without a Dakka predator. Its cheap and tough and works wonderfully as long as you have other stuff to draw fire away from it. I run one alongside a Vindicator and a few Rhinos and its usually the last one to be targeted, leaving it happy to sit in cover and shoot 10 shots a turn out to 24"...

[RocketRollRebel]

You cant really go wrong with Either the cheap anti infantry of the Auto Cannon/Heavy Bolter/(storm bolter for an even 100pts?) build or cheap med/light AT busting of the Auto Cannon/Las Cannon set up.

[Infinite Freedom]

Lately I've been seeing TL Lascannons and Heavy Bolter Sponsons at the club? Thoughts.

[Wolfshade]

When I field them I am usually facing nids so tool them up with autocannon and heavy bolters. With good placement I usually manage at least one turn of firing everything. Though I think I am correct in saying that the TL lascannons is more efficient at taking out big bugs, the higher fire rate of the autocannon are better for the slightly smaller bugs, and usally there are more little bugs than big bugs.

[blackarmchair]

Lately I've been seeing TL Lascannons and Heavy Bolter Sponsons at the club? Thoughts.

I've seen this done by Black Templar players; but that's a bit different than in other codexes since I see them almost always with PotMS. It's actually a nifty little configuration, 2x heavy bolters firing on infantry and a TwL lascannon splitting fire at a tank is enough to do damage but not enough to raise the threat level too high, so they're pretty consistent performers IMO.

[Shotgun Justice]

I enjoy using autocannon w. lascannon sponsons preds, especially in an av13 list, using preds, vindi's & ironclads to carefully screen side armour.
I've even found use for turret only preds in this list so that movement is not a hindrance as the dreds & vindis want to get close; autocannon, storm bolter & hkm,.

As others have mentioned a single pred is a dead pred, there needs to be other units of equal threat in which case the pred can often be left alone for much of the game

[Infinite Freedom]

I enjoy using autocannon w. lascannon sponsons preds, especially in an av13 list, using preds, vindi's & ironclads to carefully screen side armour.
I've even found use for turret only preds in this list so that movement is not a hindrance as the dreds & vindis want to get close; autocannon, storm bolter & hkm,.

As others have mentioned a single pred is a dead pred, there needs to be other units of equal threat in which case the pred can often be left alone for much of the game

Might as well mention that I have a Vindie and a Redeemer loaded up with Dorn and a Termie squad out there to take their eyes off the Monster Slayer Pred. MS config is a TL Las and Heavy Bolters with Cronus.

[hippsman]

I used to use them regularly last edition of the codex when lascannons were cheaper options, but since the price hike, I like to use a basic land speeder with multimelta. I usually don't use a lot of FA options so I take 3 squads of 1. They are pesky can move quickly and are actually pretty survivable if you can move them well.

[Tynskel]

I think that Blood Angels are a little limited by everything, in the sense that you have to focus on a theme (all tanks, all dreads, or all jump) and you can't really deviate from it and come out with a winning list. They do a get a benefit for their preds, but at the cost of less cost effective Dev squads and other heavy weapon units.

For the point cost, the base autocannon pred with HB sponsons is a great buy with decent anti-tank vs. light armor and the ability to put out a huge number of wounds on anything it points at, including lone models.

I am not sure where you come up with this. If you build a vanilla list with BA, you will have ~one less squad, but all of you transports/tanks are now fast. Sounds good to me.

It is only when you are purchasing ALL of the goodies of the BA when you start feeling the need to specialize. But, if you stick to the Codex, you'll have a strong army.

[Sure]

A great choice in the current play environment is the aforementioned Predator with Lascannon Sponsons and the Autocannon. It does decently well against transports of all kinds and is really cheap. Put it in a rhino-heavy list...that way the opponent has to stop and say, "Do I target the rhinos and stop the troops from getting into position or do I forget them and go after the Predators?"
If there aren't many vehicles in the list they won't last long. They'll become priority targets for the opponent's anti-armor forces. The front armor definitely helps, though. Opponents wil often go after the rhinos to stop the troops, but the tactical squads just keep advancing to their objective, even if a little slower than before. Meanwhile you've got another turn to saturate a target in firepower.

[FortheEmperor!]

Hmm. Your forces seem rather well balanced for dealing with heavily mechanized units at range, a fine representation of a siege style army. I would suggest taking the Autocannon / Heavy Bolter setup to deal with entrenched infantry, and if you have points left over I might suggest taking Sgt. Chronus as an entertaining and thematically appropriate upgrade. That's a lot of shooting to hit on 2s with.

I have run Chronus in a "dakka pred" quite a bit. That heavy volume of fire really benefits well from his BS5 and ignoring shaken and stunned really helps too!

[Vashtek]

As the the thread title states, I am curious if the Predators in the standard Space Marine Codex worth it or should I look at something else for that empty HS slot?

This is the wrong question. Your question should be : This is my list (listing x y z) and I am thinking of substituting dakka preds for (y). Do you think this is a good idea, or would q be a better choice?

You should also state the purpose of the list as picking a list for all comers is significantly different to say picking a list for your local metagame which has, say, 3 tyranid swarm players and 2 orks.

Then we can help you. Simply asking ' is x any good' doesn't work as most units (except maybe praetorians) can be good if the list is built around them or the list lacks a certain niche which you need to fill. Don't pick things because other people say they are good or because you see other people using them. Think about what you are trying to achieve with your list and pick your units accordingly. This is a common mistake.

I will try to demonstrate this below.

Dakka preds are good in a meched up shootie list. One way of playing this type of list is below

Librarian nullzone, gate 100

ELITE
Dreadnought:2x twin autocannon
Dreadnought: 2x twin autocannon

TROOPS
Marine Squad I: 5x extra marines missile launcher melta gun combi melta
Razorback - twin plas/lascannon

Marine Squad II : 5x extra marines missile launcher melta gun combi melta 185
Razorback - twin plas/lascannon

Marine Squad III : 5x extra marines missile launcher plasma gun combi plasma
Razorback - twin plas/lascannon

Fast atttack
Typhoon

HEAVY SUPPORT
Predator - heavy bolter sponsons
Predator - heavy bolter sponsons
Predator - heavy bolter sponsons

This list has 20 points left over for a 1500 list. The dakka preds are helped in this list by the presence of dreadnoughts and razorbacks, meaning that your opponents needs a a lot of str 7 and above firepower as anything less will likely go to waste. You could swap out the razorbacks for rhinos and leave your opponent nothing apart from vehicles to shoot at. In this scenario, the predators are likely to be ignored as your opponent will probably (rightly) determine that the razorbacks and dreads are higher priorities for him.
Here your rough plan is that the razorbaks/ dreads open up your opponents transports and your predators dakka the things inside. A plan.

A bad list for a predator would be something like

Pedro Cantor

TROOPS
Marine Squad II : 5x extra marines missile launcher melta gun powerfist combi melta
Rhino

Marine Squad II : 5x extra marines missile launcher melta gun powerfist combi melta
Rhino

ELITE
Sternguard Squad 5x extra sternguard, 10x combi weapons
Terminator squad: 2x cyclone missile launcher

HEAVY SUPPORT
Predator - heavy bolter sponsons

This is a much more assault orientated list, with Pedro giving everyone within 12" +1A which is nice for the terminators and the guys with powerfists, but can still pack a punch at range. Here the dakka pred is not a good choice as it is likely to be left at base without any support, it can't use Pedro's buff, there aren't many vehicles about to 'hide' it, and it's not really doing anything that the rest of list can't do already.

A better option (for this list) might be to give the sternguard a rhino so that they can join in the fun, and maybe give the sergeant a powerfist. Alternatively a scout squad which can potentially benefit from Pedro's bonus, be a little better at resisting assault and can sit on an objective, allowing the rest of the list to move forwards.

TLDR: Select a list, not individual components. Most choices in a codex can be bad or good selections, depending what else is in the list.

[ElDuchen]

I have a dakka pred and a autocannon/lascannon pred in my 1500 list. I haven't had a lot of games with them, but I find that they are quite useful, especially if facing a mech list. Both preds can go for light armor quite easily, but the dakka pred is great for softening up infantry before they get at my tac squads. I have a DT LR Crusader in the list as well with 5 terminators, which draws a lot of the early fire, leaving the preds to set up for downrange shots.

[Infinite Freedom]

This is the wrong question. Your question should be : This is my list (listing x y z) and I am thinking of substituting dakka preds for (y). Do you think this is a good idea, or would q be a better choice?

You should also state the purpose of the list as picking a list for all comers is significantly different to say picking a list for your local metagame which has, say, 3 tyranid swarm players and 2 orks.

Then we can help you. Simply asking ' is x any good' doesn't work as most units (except maybe praetorians) can be good if the list is built around them or the list lacks a certain niche which you need to fill. Don't pick things because other people say they are good or because you see other people using them. Think about what you are trying to achieve with your list and pick your units accordingly. This is a common mistake.

I will try to demonstrate this below.

Dakka preds are good in a meched up shootie list. One way of playing this type of list is below

Librarian nullzone, gate 100

ELITE
Dreadnought:2x twin autocannon
Dreadnought: 2x twin autocannon

TROOPS
Marine Squad I: 5x extra marines missile launcher melta gun combi melta
Razorback - twin plas/lascannon

Marine Squad II : 5x extra marines missile launcher melta gun combi melta 185
Razorback - twin plas/lascannon

Marine Squad III : 5x extra marines missile launcher plasma gun combi plasma
Razorback - twin plas/lascannon

Fast atttack
Typhoon

HEAVY SUPPORT
Predator - heavy bolter sponsons
Predator - heavy bolter sponsons
Predator - heavy bolter sponsons

This list has 20 points left over for a 1500 list. The dakka preds are helped in this list by the presence of dreadnoughts and razorbacks, meaning that your opponents needs a a lot of str 7 and above firepower as anything less will likely go to waste. You could swap out the razorbacks for rhinos and leave your opponent nothing apart from vehicles to shoot at. In this scenario, the predators are likely to be ignored as your opponent will probably (rightly) determine that the razorbacks and dreads are higher priorities for him.
Here your rough plan is that the razorbaks/ dreads open up your opponents transports and your predators dakka the things inside. A plan.

A bad list for a predator would be something like

Pedro Cantor

TROOPS
Marine Squad II : 5x extra marines missile launcher melta gun powerfist combi melta
Rhino

Marine Squad II : 5x extra marines missile launcher melta gun powerfist combi melta
Rhino

ELITE
Sternguard Squad 5x extra sternguard, 10x combi weapons
Terminator squad: 2x cyclone missile launcher

HEAVY SUPPORT
Predator - heavy bolter sponsons

This is a much more assault orientated list, with Pedro giving everyone within 12" +1A which is nice for the terminators and the guys with powerfists, but can still pack a punch at range. Here the dakka pred is not a good choice as it is likely to be left at base without any support, it can't use Pedro's buff, there aren't many vehicles about to 'hide' it, and it's not really doing anything that the rest of list can't do already.

A better option (for this list) might be to give the sternguard a rhino so that they can join in the fun, and maybe give the sergeant a powerfist. Alternatively a scout squad which can potentially benefit from Pedro's bonus, be a little better at resisting assault and can sit on an objective, allowing the rest of the list to move forwards.

TLDR: Select a list, not individual components. Most choices in a codex can be bad or good selections, depending what else is in the list.

Okay, here is my current list.

HQ
Lysander

Troops
10 man Tactical
Missile and Flamer
Razorback with HK

10 man Tactical
Missile and Flamer
Razorback with TL Lascannon

Elites
Terminator
Assault Cannon
Single Chainfist

Terminator Squad
Single Chainfist

Dreadnaught
Assualt Cannon
Heavy Flamer
Drop Pod with Locator Beacon

Heavy Supprt

Predator
TL Lascannon
HB sponsons
Chronus

Vindicator
Siege Shield

Land Raider Crusader
Multi-melta

That is my 1850.

Yes, I decided to field the Predator.

[Vashtek]

Okay, here is my current list.

HQ
Lysander

Troops
10 man Tactical
Missile and Flamer
Razorback with HK

10 man Tactical
Missile and Flamer
Razorback with TL Lascannon

Elites
Terminator
Assault Cannon
Single Chainfist

Terminator Squad
Single Chainfist

Dreadnaught
Assualt Cannon
Heavy Flamer
Drop Pod with Locator Beacon

Heavy Supprt

Predator
TL Lascannon
HB sponsons
Chronus

Vindicator
Siege Shield

Land Raider Crusader
Multi-melta

That is my 1850.

Yes, I decided to field the Predator.

Ok. How do you find this list is working out for you? What do your recent experiences tell you?

One thing that immediately shouts out to me is your lack of troops. Unless your group does things differently, 2/3 of scenarios are based around capturing objectives. Your troops aren't really built for taking objectives (razorbacks not rhinos, no real assault capability), and they are only ok at defending.
I try to take a minimum of 3 'proper' troop choices even at 1500 points. I appreciate you can combat squad but you need 10 men to achieve anything.

The other thing that I'm unsure about the list is the dreadnought in the drop pod. Now I can see how dreadnoughts in drop pods work, especially with other units in pods or if you have fast moving assault units to support them, but your current set up doesn't really have either. It seems to me that you will drop the dreadnought, hope it blows something up (unlikely) and then hope the rest of the opponent's army doesn't kill it (unlikely). Either that or you drop him back close to your lines and you have wasted the drop pod. I see that you have given the pod a locater beacon for your terminators but I really wouldn't reserve shooting terminators. They have guns and you should use them. Reserves are unreliable (often not arriving until turn 3/4) and your list needs all its guns on the board.

So I would make a choice. Do I want to make a shooting army (with lysander terminators as a counter charge unit) or do I want to make an assault based army (with drop pod dreadnoughts and assault troops in pods or deep striking). At the moment your army is caught between those two options and is doing nothing very effectively. I expect that your army often gets separated into three parts : the sit at home squad, the dreadnought arriving on turn one and the terminators arriving later, either by deep strike or land raider. The opponent(if he is any good) can bring his entire force to bear on your individual aspects to defeat you.

[bloodangel 83]

Hey guys and girls, in my BA army i use my auto cannon/ HB pred, TL Las/las sponsons pred, BAAL Pred assualt cannon/HB BAAL Pred HF/flamer sponsons with a vend w/ siege shield, mind you not all at once but it shows that preds are great for mulitiable roles. As far as list it depends on the way you play and if you want a shooty list go for it. BA83

[Infinite Freedom]

Ok. How do you find this list is working out for you? What do your recent experiences tell you?

One thing that immediately shouts out to me is your lack of troops. Unless your group does things differently, 2/3 of scenarios are based around capturing objectives. Your troops aren't really built for taking objectives (razorbacks not rhinos, no real assault capability), and they are only ok at defending.
I try to take a minimum of 3 'proper' troop choices even at 1500 points. I appreciate you can combat squad but you need 10 men to achieve anything.

The other thing that I'm unsure about the list is the dreadnought in the drop pod. Now I can see how dreadnoughts in drop pods work, especially with other units in pods or if you have fast moving assault units to support them, but your current set up doesn't really have either. It seems to me that you will drop the dreadnought, hope it blows something up (unlikely) and then hope the rest of the opponent's army doesn't kill it (unlikely). Either that or you drop him back close to your lines and you have wasted the drop pod. I see that you have given the pod a locater beacon for your terminators but I really wouldn't reserve shooting terminators. They have guns and you should use them. Reserves are unreliable (often not arriving until turn 3/4) and your list needs all its guns on the board.

So I would make a choice. Do I want to make a shooting army (with lysander terminators as a counter charge unit) or do I want to make an assault based army (with drop pod dreadnoughts and assault troops in pods or deep striking). At the moment your army is caught between those two options and is doing nothing very effectively. I expect that your army often gets separated into three parts : the sit at home squad, the dreadnought arriving on turn one and the terminators arriving later, either by deep strike or land raider. The opponent(if he is any good) can bring his entire force to bear on your individual aspects to defeat you.

The Assault Cannon squad deep strikes. The other Squad rides in the Raider with Lysander. I combat squad the Tacs and move them forward in the Razorbacks. Dread drops in close to a suitable target. Vindiee makes a beeline for the closest infantry blob or heavy armor. Pred and the Missiles sit back and shoot.

Works better in practice than it does on paper.

[Mr. Furious]

I only run my Predators with the Autocannon and HB Sponsons. Versatile firepower that's a pretty good value.

I prefer Lascannons on my Razorbacks and Landraiders.

[jifel]

Something I've been thinking about for small (1000 and below) games, how about 3 preds with zero upgrades? Thats an armour 13 wall with 3 autocannons, and dirt cheap. That could put some hurt on rhinos and chimeras and would make your opponent shoot them, but then theyd only be killing a small part of your army points wise.

[Tynskel]

yes, but for one less tank, you greatly increase the firepower.

[Greenskin]

Vashtek pretty much wins this discussion with the statement that a predator's weapon configuration is not as important a question as what roll the predator plays in the army and how it is supported in that roll by the rest fo your forces. That said, I would caution against taking a pred with some guns that are lascannons and some that arent. with either the AutoLas or the TL Las/HB sponsons, you are wasting some of the unit's firepower. I've seen a lot of people on here suggesting predators that have a mix of las and something else, but particularly with heavy bolter/las, you are going to end up either wasting HB shots at the heavy AV target that your Las turret is shooting, or pissing the lascannon away on infantry that the HBs are designed for. Auto/Las is more viable due to the Auto's ability to threaten armor at equal range to the lascannons, but it is still more of a light vehicle/heavy infantry killer than the tank-killing lascannon.
if you are going to take sponsons at all, I think it best to take HBs with the Autocannon or go for all las.

[canoebuilder001]

I am not a fan of the Pred in Vanilla Marines. It is too static. And in my play-group, static vehicles get crunched by powerklaws, monsterous creatures, and meltabombs. A devistator squad seems a better bet.

[Infinite Freedom]

I am not a fan of the Pred in Vanilla Marines. It is too static. And in my play-group, static vehicles get crunched by powerklaws, monsterous creatures, and meltabombs. A devistator squad seems a better bet.

Devs are too expensive. Even if you gave them all Missile Launchers or all Heavy Bolters your running 150 points, and that's just the base 5. I take tanks because they are cheaper. And they get targeted more often which takes fire off of other things like those all important Tactical Squads.