Personal Editorial: Inconsitencies in the Grey Knight codex

[Wildcard]

Hello fellow Imperials and Xenos alike!
Today i would like to talk about codex you all must be bored to death already: The Grey Knights.
However, this time the topic is a bit different than usual (or so i hope atleast).

Before i begin, let it be known that for me, there is not that much difference between the fluff and the TT-game (save for few artistic interpretations).

So, this will not be 'build your own super WAAC-list article, nor it is purely to criticize the fluff and stories found in the book.
This time i plan to go through the unit entries, how their loadouts and 'statlines' match the fluff, and how their overall performance goes with their primary purpose (demon slaying/banishing) and some inconsistency i feel can be found amongst the pages.

Lets begin then with the prowess based on their illustrated heroism (and statlines)..

First and foremost, the path for one to become a Grey Knight is taken to extreme to weed out the weak.
Success rate being rougly one to thousand when compared to other space marine chapters, with the exclusion of the wargear grey knights possess their prowess. When taken into account grey knights training, foes they have to face, and the nature of the conflicts in where these warriors fight it seems a bit absurd that their skills with blades are just so equal as any other space marine chapters rank and file soldier.

Secondly, a thing that deeply bewilders me is the reliance of ranged weaponry for grey knights.
Practically in every scenario they are outnumbered atleast one to hundred, if not one to thousand.
Even with each belt pouch and backpack and so on means to carry ammunition full, they are doomed to run out of ammunition long before their enemies are vanquished, even with 'one shot - one kill' type of mentality. And when the ammo is spent, they have to rely to their martial prowess.
And with the facts laid out before, this has to happen in practically every fight. That said, its a wonder there even are any grey knights left at all.

Then to the wargears..

Taken the secret pacts with mechanicum and "some xenos races" into account, the wargear grey knighs carry should be best the imperium has to offer. Yet it is unclear to me whether by some logistic mishap or some similar unfortunate event they were
only issued with one stormshield (and that they lost in the warp).

We know that the grey knights swap codex astartes standard issue special weapons (namely plasma and melta weaponry) to their own formidable versions, well suited for the purpose grey knights were crafted for.
While every weapon has its own purpose which they perform to a devastating effect, i find it odd, that one of the most revered artifact and relic of war; the dreadnought, is practically a standard pattern / loadout, to the point of a melta weapon mounted on it.
So, undoubtedly by far the most common loadout for this revered relic is the psychic enhanced pair of dual autocannons. While certainly usefull, and devastating beyond measure, it still suffers from the same problem that grey knights in general: Reliance of ammunition. And while for a moment this revered battle brother can give his fellow warriors a moment of respite when firing for effect, its overall effect is a mere drop (of high calibre shells) in the ocean (of never ending tide of horrors).

And last (for now), the very feat that makes grey knights unique, the enhancing of their weaponry with their minds, a skill surely known by the most notable
of the grey knights heroes, and yet, utterly unavailable to them (the psybolts)..

So, how do you feel? Are these inconsistencies true? And have they led the codex to a wrong track, or am i completely wrong? If you think this is true, then how would you think that the change should be applied, and to what extend? And would it have made the codex more fun, more diverse, less spammy etc in your opinion?

Thats all for now!
Wildcard

[DarkLink]

On the first point, I do agree that I miss army-wide WS 5, and two attacks base on GKSS would be pretty nice. You would have to pay more points for that, though, and GKs are already pushing the expensive side as it is. From an armylist design perspective, it was a good move I think.

They should have kept Fearless, though. Forget ATSKNF, I shouldn't have to roll for leadership with Grey Knights, except for psychic tests.




For the second point, I will point out that when you are vastly outnumbered you don't leave behind the guns. That's just stupid. Being able to kill the first thousand Daemons before they can reach you is a pretty big deal. And bolters have magical ammo anyway, Space Marines must be issued Bags of Holding or something, so that's not a big deal.


I love the codex. With the sole exception of the lack of Fearless and the fact that basic GKSS are a bit whimpy for a Grey Knight, they hit the elite of the elite feel perfectly.

The only real problem with the army is a handful of balance issues. A few things, like the Grenades and Psyrifle Dreads, are overpowered, while a few options are sub-par to useless (Brotherhood Champion, most Dreadknight options, and most of the Inquisitorial stuff with a few exceptions such as Death Cult Assassins).

They also should have had some way to make Interceptors Troops. As it stands, it's very difficult to fit them into the list when compared to Paladins and Purifiers.

[Mr.Pickelz]

I'm thinking along the same lines as Darklink, The book is a welcome upgrade from 3rd ed. While i wish they would have kept more of the Anti-Chaos stuff, like Unguents of Warding, and the Sacred Incense and fearless would be nice(Paladins I'm looking at you!). The current book has got the Elite of the elite goin for it. If you think UltraMarines are elite, then check these guys out!:D

The issue with GK's using SS is the balance aspect, if you give a any Grey Knight a sword and shield combo... That's a 3+ invul against shooting and a 2+ in CC. Add that onto units like Purifiers and Paladins, and you got yourself a whole big unit(s) of Over-powered goodness.

[Amaunator]

Purifiers are the true grey knights, those strike squads are just wannabes. 2 attacks, and a psychic power to make up for the lack of ammunition.

If you read the fluff of paladins, each one should be able to single handedly beat greater daemons (they can with their nemesis swords yes, but how likely is it? Maybe if they wore dreadknight suits...)

The same stats vs fluff-problem is evident in other codices too. If you read the fluff of the ultramarines codex, you would find out that the rookies are scouts, then devastators and assault marines, after gaining enough experience one would become a tactical marine and then maybe promoted to veteran and so on. Finally just before character status, there's honour guard, who by their fluff each have killed whole regiments of enemies. Every space marine between scouts and characters has ws4 bs4...

Likewise, the dreadnought issue: grey knights very rarely do sieges or other kinds of long range firefights. They either take or make an assault against huge swarms of daemons or a few greater daemons. Now how useful in a swirling melee after a few moments of shooting (=you don't need that much ammo btw) is a dreadnought with just long range cannons? Not very, but we can blame the current meta and the fact GK play against non-daemons as well for that. If it were for the fluff only, GK dreadnoughts could only take psycannons and incinerators, and the mainstay from a combat standpoint would be a dreadknight.

[DarkLink]

A gun strapped to your wrist is a pretty effective melee weapon if you ask me, if not quite so much as a ten foot long psychically charged sword. Considering the sheer utility of being able to hurt something from more than an arms length, I'd sure want to bring a storm bolter along.

And the fluff was never that GKs only fought Daemons. Grey Knights were created to fight Chaos, which is very different from just Daemons. Traitor Guard and Chaos Marines are unquestionably within the GK's realm of expertise, something often overlooked, and even more often overlooked is all the fluff about why Grey Knights would fight other armies as well. Saying that GKs only fight Daemons is like saying that the real life USMC only protects naval vessels and conducts amphibious assaults. They may be the go-to choice in those cases and the leading experts in those areas,


Again, guns are useful. Really, really useful. As far as melee combat is concerned, 'long range' is anything beyond arms length. It would be idiotic not to bring a gun of some sort when facing hordes of just about anything, Daemons in particular. With guns, you just point and pull the trigger and stuff (hopefully) dies. There's no reason to forego ranged combat just because someone doesn't think that it's in their job description.

[Wildcard]

I know why the codex GK plays like it does: There was a need to do something differently to the Codex SM and the 24" heavy shooting bubble power armor army was what was not present.

Anyway..

@Darklink: I never said that one should give up their guns. Its more like, why rely more on their guns than their martial prowess, since there is no way you can carry enough ammunition to bring the horde-type enemy to the knees.. (yet i aggree with you that i would like to kill thousands of enemy troops before i had to go into melee with them, or seriously hurt a foe much faster, tougher and stronger than me for that matter)

Then "Fluff Dreadnought vs fluff dreadknight": While i understand the gameplay wise role of dreadnought with twin autocannons, if i am not mistaken, its the only unit in gk army that has regular space marine weaponry (save for the tanks). Now, GK got 3 "new" special weapons and their heavy counterparts. I will not go now into the argument wether or not the heavy psycannon is actually better than normal, or should it have had more fire-mode options, but GK Dread could have been made rather usefull / or atleast unique by giving it 3 twinlinked versions of the GK specific special weapons, and 3 variants of the heavy versions of those.

Also, i would have liked to see a dread suited for close combat, preferably against hordes, either a blood-talon type solution, or fitting for grey knight, extra attacks based on a psykic test? Since DreadKnight is solely (melee wise) geared to rip out single tough oppoenents, be that a tank, greater daemon or equivalent, with funnily ranged weapon options geared fully toward horde-control..

That said.. I agree that ws5,2 base attacks, fearless would come in mind with the descriptions (when compared their martial prowess to regular marines)
Also, the nemesis sword was pretty much given the special rule to grant termies better than 5++ save, yet, with stormshields, this rule could have been left out (and to give other HQs that 3++ save they get with sword/iron halo combo, GK could have gotten their own version of "holy/sacred iron halo" that would have given flat 3++ save..
However, i didn't bring the SS up because it would be nice to have those, but because in the fluff, only 1 member of the order has one :)

And yeah, ws5,2(or even 3) attacks base for purifiers and paladins, I6 forceweapons with armorsaves plus 3++ save would be kinda... ...heroic..? :D

[Souba]

the thing about ammunitiion isnt that relevant for GK strategics. as they mostly deepstrike right into the heart of the enemys to wipe out the host of the daemonic taint and as such the whole infestation they dont have to use tons of ammunition.

[Denzark]

Firstly, I agree to some extent. But, you are missing glaring inconsistencies, and highlighting some not so. GK would only ever deploy against the threat of Daemon and then only as an absolute last resort. If a guard division could stop a THREAT, or vanilla SM who would be mindwiped, they would always be used first - its only where the warp has invaded realspace in a major incursion would they be used. And probably only where the planet was too valuable for exterminatus. The enemy might be another race or even an imperial army - but only where daemonic presence was 100% confirmed and a majorbreach of reality at that.

Second, the fluff usually has them teleporting direct to the point of the problem. The sorceror, the possessed child, whatever. This means they don't need heavy weapons or loads of ammo to wade through hordes, they are already at ground zero.

Secondly, as they are only deploying against daemons, they don't encounter regular hordes of orks etc - or probably their common opponents on the table top - Dark Eldar, Necrons, Space Blood Knights and other armies of the month. The weapon of choice against the daemon is the nemesis weapons and the mind bullets. Again, regular ammo even psybolt, is not what mainly banishes them.

Lastly, the scale of the foe is understated too. At Armageddon the fluff says 100 went up against Angron as a Daemon prince and only some 10-12 prevailed (iirc). On the tabletop Angron is only 500pts (the only primarch represented by an official data sheet from GW) and I would be suprised if 20 or even 15 couldn't take him alone.

[DarkLink]

Yeah, I'm just saying that because of the way the game plays out, the fact that all GKs have Storm Bolters plays a pretty important roll, regardless of whether it may or may not do so in the fluff. Which it does, because even in tight quarters a gun is still useful, but it's just the way the game works out.

I too find it odd that Blood Angels have a Librarian Dreadnought, but not Grey Knights... I would think that GKs would only have Librarian Dreadnoughts. Certainly would have been a different codex.


But, you are missing glaring inconsistencies, and highlighting some not so. GK would only ever deploy against the threat of Daemon and then only as an absolute last resort.

That's pretty explicitly not true. If there is a Daemonic incursion, then the GKs will be called, but it's not like they just sit around and whittle their thumbs waiting for conformation that those traitor guard completed the summoning ceremony so the Daemons actually show up. GKs spend their time fighting chaos, which means that when they're not stopping incursions they're hunting down cultist and chaos Marines and chaotic artifacts, all while killing any enemies that get in their way.

Not only does that thoroughly undermine the idea that GKs only fight Daemons, but it provides very easy justification for why GKs would fight pretty much any army in the game. As I've mentioned before, the third ed Daemonhunters codex even had a section explicitly listing scenarios to justify why GKs might be fighting any particular army.

In fact, here are some specific examples from the 5th ed codex:
During and after the Battle for Armageddon, GKs hunted down and exterminated dozens of Imperial Guard units that had been exposed to chaos. GK vs. IG

Mordrak was dispatched to investigate a planet suspected of being linked to the warp. Turns out it was actually a necron tombworld. GKs vs Necrons.

The Purifiers were dispatched to a destroyed Eldar Craftworld. After killing the Daemons within, they waited around for the Eldar to show up so that the Eldar could collect lost spirit stones so that some Daemon would not grow more powerful by consuming them. GKs working with Eldar.

Mordrak is ambushed by the Red Corsairs. GK vs CSM.

Waaaagh! Snappaclaw invades Beroghast. Some nearby GKs are board, so they slaughter the orks and then laugh over drinks when some normal Space Marines arrive only to find the orks running away already. GKs vs Orks.

'nidz invade Sondheim V. Daemons get involved. GKs show up and kill stuff. GKs vs 'nidz vs Daemons.

[Denzark]

Yeah, I'm just saying that because of the way the game plays out, the fact that all GKs have Storm Bolters plays a pretty important roll, regardless of whether it may or may not do so in the fluff. Which it does, because even in tight quarters a gun is still useful, but it's just the way the game works out.

I too find it odd that Blood Angels have a Librarian Dreadnought, but not Grey Knights... I would think that GKs would only have Librarian Dreadnoughts. Certainly would have been a different codex.



That's pretty explicitly not true. If there is a Daemonic incursion, then the GKs will be called, but it's not like they just sit around and whittle their thumbs waiting for conformation that those traitor guard completed the summoning ceremony so the Daemons actually show up. Of course not but the decision to deploy them implies a serious demonic threat

GKs spend their time fighting chaos, which means that when they're not stopping incursions they're hunting down cultist and chaos Marines and chaotic artifacts, all while killing any enemies that get in their way. Not only does that thoroughly undermine the idea that GKs only fight Daemons, but it provides very easy justification for why GKs would fight pretty much any army in the game. As I've mentioned before, the third ed Daemonhunters codex even had a section explicitly listing scenarios to justify why GKs might be fighting any particular army. All of those hooks involved daemons - real or threatened.

In fact, here are some specific examples from the 5th ed codex:
During and after the Battle for Armageddon, GKs hunted down and exterminated dozens of Imperial Guard units that had been exposed to chaos. GK vs. IG

because of the threat posed by knowledge of a mass daemonic incursion led by a daemon prince

Mordrak was dispatched to investigate a planet suspected of being linked to the warp. Turns out it was actually a necron tombworld. GKs vs Necrons.

linked to a warp planet. Daemons live in the warp.

The Purifiers were dispatched to a destroyed Eldar Craftworld. After killing the Daemons within, they waited around for the Eldar to show up so that the Eldar could collect lost spirit stones so that some Daemon would not grow more powerful by consuming them. GKs working with Eldar.

Anti daemon work again then

Mordrak is ambushed by the Red Corsairs. GK vs CSM.

Not necessarily daemons but of course they're going to defend themselves when attacked.
Waaaagh! Snappaclaw invades Beroghast. Some nearby GKs are board, so they slaughter the orks and then laugh over drinks when some normal Space Marines arrive only to find the orks running away already. GKs vs Orks.

again a defence against direct attack, not an offensive deployment

'nidz invade Sondheim V. Daemons get involved. GKs show up and kill stuff. GKs vs 'nidz vs Daemons.

Daemons get involved.


The Fluff may have changed from explicit to implicit, but the Inq will only deploy GK as a last resort against Daemons, if they thought they could stop a summoning by using vanilla Space Marines and writing the enemy off as traitor guard, they would. Even a mass incursion like the Sabbat Worlds (GG) was left to IG to contain. There are too few of them to act as generic fire fighters of all the Imperium's woes and any recent GW fluff that may hint otherwise is trying to reconcile the fact they get everywhere, so little timmy can suspend his disbelief and not strain his ADHD brain working out why GK are combating something an IG or Sisters army would be more likely to fight.

[Wildcard]

I too find it odd that Blood Angels have a Librarian Dreadnought, but not Grey Knights... I would think that GKs would only have Librarian Dreadnoughts. Certainly would have been a different codex.

This is one of the things i wanted to bring out in the first place (but forgot for a reason or another)..

In an arny, where each and every member is psychicly active (some more than others apparently). Yet, this does in no way reflect to the dreadnoughts abilities (save for the fortitude, but that is general GK vechicle power, so its no excuse).

I do not remember what abilities BA Libby dread gets (maybe those silly wings? :) ), but there would have been a great place to try out something different and new, both with reqular psychic dread and librarian dread aswell..

A great missed opportunity in my opinion..

[Lexington]

And the fluff was never that GKs only fought Daemons. Grey Knights were created to fight Chaos, which is very different from just Daemons.
Actually, they were initially said to have been very specifically created to combat daemons, rather than just a sort of nebulous "Chaos." The new Codex might well say different, but that's the nature of bumping them from a sort of Imperial add-on to full-fledged Codex status.

Really, though, if the long-standing "what in the dickens are the GK doing here?" problem was the worst problem with their Codex's background, we'd be in a much better world. :p

[Mr.Pickelz]

It was stated, in the 3rd ed. codex, that the Grey knights were created to fight chaos in all it's forms. This included: icons/possessed/Worshipers/etc... Grey knights were deployed when there was a "confirmed" chaos entity in the area, no matter the form. One section in the old book actually went through and described why Grey knights would be fighting IG,eldar,orks,SM,CSM,etc... Ward really should have just copy/pasted that into the new book.

There isn't much I can say that darklink hasn't already. GK's were made to fight chaos in ALL it's forms. End of story. And no, GK's are not the last resort for the inquisition, it's just, if the GK's are involved then the proverbial "**** has hit the fan" has or will come true.

[DarkLink]

Right, just because Navy DEVGRU is the one sent to take out Osama Bin Laden doesn't mean that they don't get called out for less important targets.


Daemons get involved.


Your point? They were actually fighting something other than Daemons. GKs will fight anyone and anything in the war on terr- er... war on chaos;). And actually, in the case of the ork invasion mentioned, chaos wasn't involved in any way whatsoever, there just happened to be some GKs in the right place at the right time.

[fuzzbuket]

you forgot that all 3 GK novels are now messed up due to termi's not bein g able to holocaust.

and i miss S6, now my GK will never be able to kill greater daemons.

[jeffersonian000]

I like a lot of the updates to the codex, but not so much the changes. WS5 should have staid, and NFS should have been +2 Str rather than +1 Invul save. GK should have retained Storm Shields as an option, although Fearless was flawed for small groups so I'm happy to see that go. Interceptors probably shouldn't be troops, but Dreadknights should be Fast Attack selections, not Heavy. As to Dreadnoughts, VenDreads should have been Librarians while RegDreads are actually fine as is. From a Real Life point of view, GK should be flinging "bolts" of psychic energy, not physical ammunition.

Yet ... all in all its a strong 'Dex that has good synergy for building multiple different lists. The fluff is just F'ing stupid (killing Battle Sisters, WTF?).

SJ

[DarkLink]

Actually, Fearless is really good for small units. If you have, say, five dudes, you don't care at all about No Retreat because in order to win combat, your opponent will kill you all anyways and probably win outright. And since you don't ever, ever, ever want your 400pt unit to run away or get pinned, ATSKNF sucks compared to Fearless for GKs. Fearless for Orks sucks, Fearless for GKs is awesome.

Nor should Interceptors be troops by default, but I think they were better candidates for FOC trickery than Purifiers. We'd avoid all the hoopla over Purifier spam, and people might actually take Interceptors. And people would still take Purifiers, because they're really good. Interceptors are tons of fun and very balanced, but since GK units are so expensive people usually spend points on other things and don't have anything left over for Interceptors. Paladins kinda needed Driago, since they're so expensive you need to design your list around them normally.

Dreadknights in general are pretty meh, and Psyrifle Dreads are so good that Dreadknights don't get taken often. The Dreadknight is a bit overpriced as is, since you either get a slow, easy to deal with unit that doesn't have any good guns and can't get into cc before being killed or you get a fast but extremely expensive unit. Dreadknight guns should have been better (the Incinerator is great, but the psycannon and psilencer are pretty meh), and the teleporter upgrade should have been cheaper.

And of course psybolt ammo should be more expensive on Dreadnoughts. Together, you might see more dreadknights and fewer psyrifle dreads. I even own a Dreadknight but don't plan on ever actually using it unless 6th ed changes things.