Weapons Rules

[Lucidum]

Hey all, long time no post. So I was playing a few games recently, and I realized that, as far as weapons in 40K go, I'd like to see more variability between them and see more "fluffy" weapons. What I mean by this is two things- 1) weapons should act in-game the way they act in the real world and/or the 40K background. And 2) I'd like to see more weapons with fluff-like special rules, like how a plasma gun 'gets hot'.

Bolters, in my opinion, deserve the biggest change (as does the ENTIRE space marine army/codex/model selection. Bolters fire what basically amounts to a miniature missile/rocket, and much of the fluff is gloriously descriptive of what kind of damage those do. But in-game, for balancing issues or whatever BS GW can come up with, Space Marines are stuck firing a pitiful S4 AP5 Rapid Fire weapon (I mean....Marines are REALLY strong, I'm pretty sure they could fire their bolters while running headlong into close combat, and S4 AP5 can only pierce the scantest amount of armor)

Shotguns are my other big complaint. A shotgun in real life is VERY effective only in close range. While a 12" range for Shotguns in game is perfectly acceptable, a mere S4 AP-- is somewhat pointless, even with Assault 2. I personally think that Shotguns should count as rending or some equivalent at closer range (6" or so perhaps).

Anyway, just speculating.

[Luke Licens]

Please see White Dwarf 300 article: Movie Marines. It should address all of your complaints regarding the disparity between the Marine fluff and the Marine rules. :cool:

[thecactusman17]

Hey all, long time no post. So I was playing a few games recently, and I realized that, as far as weapons in 40K go, I'd like to see more variability between them and see more "fluffy" weapons. What I mean by this is two things- 1) weapons should act in-game the way they act in the real world and/or the 40K background. And 2) I'd like to see more weapons with fluff-like special rules, like how a plasma gun 'gets hot'.

Bolters, in my opinion, deserve the biggest change (as does the ENTIRE space marine army/codex/model selection. Bolters fire what basically amounts to a miniature missile/rocket, and much of the fluff is gloriously descriptive of what kind of damage those do. But in-game, for balancing issues or whatever BS GW can come up with, Space Marines are stuck firing a pitiful S4 AP5 Rapid Fire weapon (I mean....Marines are REALLY strong, I'm pretty sure they could fire their bolters while running headlong into close combat, and S4 AP5 can only pierce the scantest amount of armor)

Shotguns are my other big complaint. A shotgun in real life is VERY effective only in close range. While a 12" range for Shotguns in game is perfectly acceptable, a mere S4 AP-- is somewhat pointless, even with Assault 2. I personally think that Shotguns should count as rending or some equivalent at closer range (6" or so perhaps).

Anyway, just speculating.

Which codex has S4 shotguns? They would be a whole lot better at that strength.

While shotguns in real life certainly do have a lot of power, that power is often dispersed across several small shot pellets, typically the more pellets the lower the individual stopping power of each. More importantly, the individual shot has a lot of force, but not much penetrating power. The enormous physical damage caused by a shotgun is typically caused by placing most or all of the shots into a small area, which applies tremendous force across the smaller region and the leading pellets cause enough structural damage for the remaining shot to penetrate further into the target. However, at any range short of "barrel touching the target" shotgun pellets typically don't have the penetrating power of a single anti-armor round, which is what Bolters, assault cannons, shuriken weapons, shootas, and numerous other weapons represent. Many others represent sentient ammo (such as numerous weapons from the Tyranid codex) or focused energy weapons capable of melting the armor or carapace of their targets.

[Lord Anubis]

Which codex has S4 shotguns? They would be a whole lot better at that strength.

Space Marines Codex. Scouts get S4 shotguns, while Guard are stuck with S3 ones.

Unless your gaming group decides "it's about time" and declares all shotguns S4... :)

[MaxKool]

What about giving shotguns 2 fireing profiles? Alot of guns have this now....

Somthing like

12" S4 ap- assault 2 to represent the buckshot
and
6" s6 ap4 assault 1 to represent a solid slug....

[DarkLink]

Since when does buckshot have a longer range than a slug? And for that matter shotguns have a very slow rate of fire compared to automatic firearms, so why would a shotgun be assault 2? And since bolter rounds are explicitly stated to be similar in caliber to a 12 gauge shotgun shell, why would 40k shotguns be significantly more powerful?

Incidentally, in real shotguns slugs and scattershot aren't actually always interchangeable. Most shotguns are smoothbore, as they fire buck/bird shot. While they can fire slugs, shotguns intended for slug use will have rifled barrels, preventing their use with scattershot since it ruins the rifling. Not that you can't shoot slugs out of a smoothbore shotgun, but they will be less accurate without rifling and since chokes tend to interfere with the slug. Though sabot rounds have helped alleviate that.

So my point is, trying to mimic real life with game rules is pointlessly complex. You're not really adding anything to the actual gameplay, and you're not really going to be able to do it well anyways. 40k isn't a role playing game.

[Tynskel]

I don't see a problem with the space marine weapons. They fit the descriptions quite well. Str 4 is really good. It wounds marines quite easily, which a bolster can do. The bolter ignores the armor of 90% of the units in the game!

[Lucidum]

I don't see a problem with the space marine weapons. They fit the descriptions quite well. Str 4 is really good. It wounds marines quite easily, which a bolster can do. The bolter ignores the armor of 90% of the units in the game!

Oh yes....90% of units in the game....which nobody uses....because 90% of the PLAYERS of the game use Space Marines of one caliber or another. -_-

[gendoikari87]

Bolters aren't that good. Even with an initial charge the gyrojet system has a lot of inherent problems. Maybe with the addition of an explosive they're alright but they won't have the penetrative capabilities of a solid shot rifle of the same caliber.

[Luke Licens]

Bolters aren't that good. Even with an initial charge the gyrojet system has a lot of inherent problems. Maybe with the addition of an explosive they're alright but they won't have the penetrative capabilities of a solid shot rifle of the same caliber.

I guess it's been a while since you read the fluff on bolters:



Standard Bolts comprise the following components: Outer casing, propellant base, main charge, mass reactive detonator cap, depleted deuterium core, diamantine tip.


Source, with sources:
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Boltgun

And as to why their bullets are full of Light Water, you'd have to ask the Tech Marines.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deuterium-depleted_water

[DarkLink]

No, using real-world physics a rifle will have more power than an equivalent gyrojet, partucularly at close range. It'll also have absurd recoil, however, since what pushed that big explosive round forward goes back into your shoulder as well. since the rifle wouldn't have to waste space on a mini-rocket engine, you could pack more explosives into the round so it would make a bigger bang.

A rifle-style bolter weapon would be roughly equivalent to a slug shotgun (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQYp9fOJ9VI) (real world example), and has a range of up to maybe 200-300 meters, though I'm not sure how accurate it would be at those ranges. I'm not sure how far 40k bolters are supposed to be accurate to, but if it gets much higher than that then the rifle-bolter would get increasingly heavier recoil.

[Wildcard]

As close as modern weaponry gets to bolters imo :) (4:19 -> if the quicklink doesnt work)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=p4ebtj1jR7c#t=259s

Taken that no bolter would be less effective, i think i would reconsider that str4 ap5 :)

But to the OP: What kind of special rules would you like to see to the weaponry, and how would you alter them to match fluff? I think that that kind of approach is cool, and would have a nice impact on the game..

[Tynskel]

Oh yes....90% of units in the game....which nobody uses....because 90% of the PLAYERS of the game use Space Marines of one caliber or another. -_-

Your comment in no way denies what I am says ng is true. When compared to all the races, the holy bolter is an instrument of destruction. Hellz, it beats up necrons!

[Slug]

Don't forget that armor in 38000 years has probably gotten far more effective, a 4+ is carapace armor, essentially sheets of armor designed to deflect or absorb rounds such as a bolter. When you think about the fluff and how amazing marine armor is, that carapace armor could nullify most modern rounds is fairly believable, hence applying real world logic you have to remember that the armor would be drastically more effective then what we have today, which might give a 6+ at best.

If you really wanted to make weapons more realistic then change the ranges drastically. the average person is say around 5'8 so 68 inches, do correct me if I'm wrong I don't use inches much/ever, a guardsman is about 1.25 inches. hence a scale of 54.4:1, a lasgun in real life would have an effective range of say 300 yards so 10800 inches. In game that should be about 200 inches, now obviously that would not work with the current rules, so you would have to make the tables about 27 yards square, and that would only just fit a tank in properly considering an Abrams can have an effective range of over a mile. Also you would have to play allot more turns and deapstriking would scatter far more.

[Wildcard]

Don't forget that armor in 38000 years has probably gotten far more effective

On the other hand humanity has always had a feat (or trait :) ) to build destructive and protective means whose performance goes a long way hand in hand. (In such a way that destructive means have always been a bit ahead of the defencive ones - but that's just the way of the universe, destruction is so much more simpler than preserving)

Now, we are talking about human(itys) weaponry here.
-Our assault rifles tend to kill people (even with body armor)
-Our missile launchers do blow up tanks
-Our shotguns are general purpose weapons that have the potential to annihilate stuff -totally..

so, there are equivalents in the 40k
-Lasguns/Autoguns tend to kill people (occasionally)
-Missile launchers do blow up tanks (unless you got bs 3)
with their respectfull duties (where they do (or do not) excel) :)

The bolter on the other hand is a bit of a question mark here, as there hasn't been anything like such a weapon on earth -before now (if you look at the link i posted, that gun could basically be Bolter MK I alpha.

Its a current weapon, with the ability to pierce all current body armors (and explode after penetration), and it even has the potential to penetrate lightly armored vehicles.

This said, in my opinion, we can talk about the analogy with current era gear and those 38k years in the future :)


If you really wanted to make weapons more realistic then change the ranges drastically

I wouldn't change the ranges that drastically, but i agree on the point that increasing them perhaps 25%-33%, but possibly only when stationary... hundred years of training or not, i still bet no-one can hit a running target (jumping from cover to cover) while moving himself and shooting with one hand - Not even movie marines are that good :)

[gendoikari87]

actually the armor on the land raider is less protective than that on the M1 abrams, and that's in fluff. I doubt when they gave the armor equivalent they understood how weak that was in comparison to modern tanks but still...

[Slug]

actually the armor on the land raider is less protective than that on the M1 abrams, and that's in fluff. I doubt when they gave the armor equivalent they understood how weak that was in comparison to modern tanks but still...

Where? not saying you're wrong, I've just never seen that, considering av 14 can take multiple tank rounds it is better then an Abrams, a rail gun is only s10, in real life those would go straight through any tank.

Wildcard, true on both parts, a better way to do range would be to say that every 66 inches (100 true yards) over the first you decrease your ballistic skill by one as if fantasy. However, those are still effective if not accurate ranges, but the point was more that complaining about realism in the game is illogical as so may parts don't add up to real life.

[Lunar Camel]

What about giving shotguns 2 fireing profiles? Alot of guns have this now....

Somthing like

12" S4 ap- assault 2 to represent the buckshot
and
6" s6 ap4 assault 1 to represent a solid slug....

Actually, GW was going along those lines. If you look in the Appendix of the BRB under Space Marine's shotguns, it has Manstopper rounds and other types (I don't have the book in front of me). Each one had a different profile.

[Wildeybeast]

Actually, GW was going along those lines. If you look in the Appendix of the BRB under Space Marine's shotguns, it has Manstopper rounds and other types (I don't have the book in front of me). Each one had a different profile.

Those are left over from the Necromunda, when shotguns had different ammo types

[gendoikari87]

Where? not saying you're wrong, I've just never seen that, considering av 14 can take multiple tank rounds it is better then an Abrams, a rail gun is only s10, in real life those would go straight through any tank.

Wildcard, true on both parts, a better way to do range would be to say that every 66 inches (100 true yards) over the first you decrease your ballistic skill by one as if fantasy. However, those are still effective if not accurate ranges, but the point was more that complaining about realism in the game is illogical as so may parts don't add up to real life.

Imperial armor II forces of the space marines and I think Chapter Approved or one of the early early editions. But put it at something like 365 Equivalent of conventional steel. the original abrams had 350 V APFSDS and the M1A1 has 600 V APFSDS and both have 700 V. HEAT.

Now the thing is this. The Imperial missile launcher is described as a hollow charge warhead, which is a second generation, and the autocannon is basically said in most fluff to be an .... well autocannon 30-40mm, (which is actually described in some fluff as a 20th century tank gun, but that in itself is not inconsistent, as a good deal of WWII tanks had a 35-40mm Main gun).

so in all the fluff is highly consistent, even the Heavy stubber, save for it's abismal AP, it really should be ap 4. But while it's consistent the writers didn't really know how advanced the stuff we had for the day (80's) was so the most advanced technology of the 41st millennium turned out to be .... not so great. Except for lascannons, they're pretty good.

[Tynskel]

Those are left over from the Necromunda, when shotguns had different ammo types

Space marine shotguns are str 4 because of man stopper rounds- see codex dark angels.