GW and Dark Angels

[Dalleron]

I know that we will never GW's thoughts on the DA, but what are you opions as to what GW has done to the First Legion. GW seems to have taken away everything that DA do and given it to all the new kids. Termie troops used to be a DA only thing, as best I can tell. Now the GK, SW and if rumours become true, so too the BT. Ditto the all biker army. Except for White Scars, DA had that in the bag too. And if BT get some "inner circle", what will that leave us with. A Necron level ret-con?

There is ALMOST no reason to play a DA army with all our toys handed out. And the SM codex is better for everything we can do. I'd rather not hop codex's until the new DA book comes out, but what choice do we have?

I guess this turned more into a rant/vent

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

I'm not a space marine/DA player. But from a Game designer point of view, here are my personal opinions and thoughts on them :

I would say They need a new direction - because their current niches have been stolen by other marine armies, which means they need a massive overhaul. What they already have is their visual style tied down. So theres no worry about that. The veteran kit and ravenwing stuff gave them a overal style they need.

What they need now are a slew of unique units to justify them again, and this will probably need subtle retcons to make work. Theres a few directions they can go with this - one being relics, like the jetbike guy, another being the watchers in the dark. They could give them Imperial Jetbikes and other pre-heresy type stuff - they could also even invent some new weirder stuff for them - it's quite easy to justify since the Dark Angels are so secretive that they just hide this stuff away from other imperial factions.

The Watchers in the dark could be elaborated on. They are cool but other than holding a few guy's helmets have no real use - yet they are a very unique and interesting aspect of the Dark Angels. They could give the Watchers the role of Snipers and Spies - this would fit the DA theme well.

They have units that should be returned to them as well - the Mortis dreadnought for example. They could also invent new units for both Deathwing and Ravenwing - these two aspects of DA while "done better by other marine armies" will likely still be important, so they need to be made different in order to have some appeal - they could give them pre-heresy style terminators for DeathWing and as I said before, Jetbikes for Ravenwing. You don't have to agree on the exact unit ideas, but I'm more providing a point of reference as to what would make DA unique again.

[CrimsonTurkey]

I'd like to see Deathwing Terminators remain as one squad. Rather than dividing into assault and tactical units they could add something in the fluff saying that each terminator picks his equipment depending on the mission ahead. If Deathwing still have cyclones on assault termis that will be noteworthy.

Perhaps do a minor ret-con and let Sammael take an honor guard on jetbikes.

Mortis dread could turn into an all ranged dread that has four shoulder mounted HK missiles or something. Alpha strike much?

[Lockark]

Right now thier is a huge problem with the all the SM armies just sort of "bleeding" together. They all basically play exactly the same way except for minor differences.

The variant space marines need more things that are unquie to them, and need less of the units and rules from the vinillia book.

(Example. Personally I'd give the other marines a re-roll moral rule or something, but keep "they shall know no fear" a codex marine rule to make it more unique.)

[Scrumblegort]

Unfortunately I feel this is one of those "You can't please everyone" situations. While I think DA are one of the coolest loyalist chapters, I'm kind of on the fence as to whether they (or any other individual chapter, other then Grey Knights who are too funky) deserve their own codex. But that is a different topic entirely...

If DA are going to continue having their own books, then they need more stuff to individualize them from the other chapters, and not just Special Rules slapped on to existing units. That I feel is the big problem with the Blood Angel codex, and to a lesser extant the Space Wolves one.

So if DA get another book, I feel like they are going to have to get plenty of stuff that other chapters can't just steal. I like the idea of Watcher units, maybe make them like fragile psykers that can be attached to certain squads. More jetbikes would be another great way to make them unique. They are supposed to have lots of Plasma weaponry, so maybe give them Plasma Cannon sponsons for some vehicles, and maybe like a marine-portable plasma based template weapon with each 1 rolled for to wound triggering a Gets Hot!

Also I think their Librarians should have less straight up mind bullet type powers, and should have more utilitarian powers. Like for one power, they scan the minds of the enemies looking for the Fallen, as a result they also learn the enemies positions, which ingame could cause some kind of reserves shenanigans. Or the Librarian thinks that an enemy unit (or maybe IC only) knows something, so the Libby and his unit get Preferred Enemy, and if the enemy loses combat than they have to take their sweeping advances test at -D3 to represent the Dark Angels wrestling them into submission so they can interrogate them later.

[Charistoph]

I don't know, rerolling morals definitely sounds Dark Angel, what with protecting the Imperium one minute and wiping out a Black Templar crusade the next and all...

OH, you mean MORALE! Let's leave that trick for Chaos, the Loyalists already can recover a panic run for free.

[Nightwolf]

This is a problem, overall, of each Chapter getting its own full codex. There is obviously a lot of bleed through as an army that used to span a single book is now spanning five (not counting Grey Knights). It has reached the point where Games Workshop is on slippery ground and the marines are beginning, in these attempts at uniqueness, to press into realms that up until this point belonged almost exclusively to the xenos.

With that in mind I agree that the watchers in the dark would provide a cool addition to the army as scouts or snipers. I'm not too keen on the idea of making jetbikes common for Dark Angels however, as then they would quite firmly trample over the traditional fighting styles of the Eldar (who are notably supposed to be a small elite force), only the marines would do it better.

[CrimsonTurkey]

I'm not too keen on the idea of making jetbikes common for Dark Angels however, as then they would quite firmly trample over the traditional fighting styles of the Eldar (who are notably supposed to be a small elite force), only the marines would do it better.

That's why I was thinking it could be cool if this was a retinue option for Sammel only. It would give DA a unique unit while still retaining the "imperial jetbikes are extremely rare" bit of fluff. I think being able to field one squad of jetbikes wouldn't step on too many eldar toes.

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

Indeed, space marine sub-armies are difficult - it's too easy for them to step on the toes of other armies, even there own. Thinking of new unit's can be difficult - as one can easily think of something that ends up being too over the top or silly as well : like would you be happy with Dark Angels getting giant monastaries on tank-tracks? or a church with a big gun on top of it? I didn't think so.

Some may remember that the Dark Angels in the past used to have some native-american indian influences in them. That's mostly gone now - bar a few feathers! but I would say this could provide an interesting area to explore and create some new units from.

I'm well aware many DA fans may tell me that they might not want that because it steps on the robed gothic monk visual - but I'd argue that every army has multiple visual themes these days. Usually 2-4 - for example Dark Eldar have Hellion/Beastmasters, Wytch Cults, Haemonculi and Kabal themes.

Dark Angels have only two themes : Deathwing and Ravenwing, note : I do not count "general" as a theme. Both need some new units to make them worth it again. I would say adding a few new themes would also help differentiate them - and a native-american tribe theme could certainly help this. I don't think theres enough for the watchers in the dark to be a theme in themselves (allthough as I mentioned before, they could have snipers, spies - perhaps attached to scouts and HQ's?) for a little extra spice to the army.

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

The Dark Angels could be expanded to a degree that necessitates their own codex, but I'd question if that divergence is necessary. Part of their 'secretive' charm is somewhat rooted in their outward similarity to codex marines. Plus, uniqueness from 'having more Terminators and bikers' always felt kind of cheap, since all-bike and all-termie forces for regular chapters are both easy to justify and pretty fun! Instead, I feel like the Deathwing and Ravenwing should offer their own, unique advantages; their bike/termie forces are very experienced/skilled. The Dark Angels' unique excellence is derived from their skill, not their equipment.

They could be done well with special characters and Chapter Tactics; they would have more've a 'bigger picture' focus, affecting victory conditions. The Dark Angels are less concerned with individual battles and campaigns than other Space Marines, with their overarching quest to hunt the Fallen taking primacy. The Chapter Tactics I outline attempts to represent this by benefiting the Dark Angels if they destroy (fluffwise, capture) a certain unit. Presumably this unit might, in some, roundabout way, lead them to one of the Fallen.

If I were given control of the design, these are the revisions I'd make to the vanilla Space Marines 'dex for a fun Dark Angels army:

Vanilla Codex:
-Add Terminator Command Squad
-Maybe condense Assault Termies and regulars into a single Mix&Match unit
-Add the remaining unused Mortis options (Dual Missile Launchers, Dual H-bolters)
-A Captain/Chapter Master in Terminator Armour makes Terminators Troops
-Add a series of Dark Angels Special Characters

Dark Angels Special Characters:
-Azrael: Makes Sternguard scoring. Exchanges the army's Combat Tactics for the Dark Angels' Chapter Tactics, Hunt the Fallen: "Randomly select one enemy unit before deployment. In a mission using Kill Points this unit is worth 1+d3 Kill Points when destroyed, rather than 1. In a mission using Objectives, when the last model of this unit is destroyed, replace it with an additional Objective marker."
-Belial: Hunt The Fallen. Makes Terminators Troops. Any model in Terminator Armour arriving from Reserves may re-roll its Reserves roll and only scatters d6".
-Sammael: Hunt The Fallen. Makes Bikes Troops. All Bikes gain Scout.
-Interrogator-Chaplain Asmodai: Hunt The Fallen. He and the unit he's attached to may re-roll To-wound rolls against units targeted by Hunt The Fallen.

[CrimsonTurkey]

Given the Lion's famed tactical and strategic ability I think DA should have more options for things like outflanking, reserve manipulation (own and enemy), and redeployment after both players have placed their minis. I think a ravenwing unit or two entering from the enemy board edge wouldn't be out of line.

[Charistoph]

Hmm, like say giving Rhinos, Razorbacks, and Land Raiders Outflank? It does have possibilities... After all, if Blood Angels can drop Land Raiders from the sky and turn boxes into Grease Lightning, why not have the Unforgiven sneaking them up the side?

[CrimsonTurkey]

Yeah, perhaps the commanders could even have a Grand Strategy like rule. D3 units can outflank, count as scoring, or redeploy after deployment is finished.

Azreal could give one unit hidden deployment like Ymgarls have, perhaps without being able to assault (my nids can't lost the advantage of their one top tier unit). That seems like it would add some strategic flavor and some sneakiness. GW should contract freelancers from BOLS. We could knock this thing out in a month. ;):cool:

[Ruleslawyer]

Stergard Veterans as troops
Redeploy Terminator squads via Deep Strike (re Sky Leap)
Ravenwing Outflanking first turn.
Declare one opposition unit fallen thus attacks against that unit are preferred enemy.(Fluff wise they don't have to be chaos but may have information or a captured relic)

[Dalleron]

I can't see Watchers in the Dark becoming something similiar to Servo skulls in the GK codex, as I don't see their purpose being offensive at all.

I don't see the DA having Sternguard at all. Maybe 1 & 2 would be vets, to represent their skill/experience to be inducted into the "inner circle" thing.

Speaking of which, could you improve the DualWing mechanic so it functions as it should? Maybe assault after Deepstrike your nonscattering termies into play. Possibly OTP though.

More special characters are a given. Probaby adding in Asmodai, and the other named Chaplain and Sct Srg Naman. Having two levels of chaplains still makes sense for the DA.

[Lockark]

I don't know, rerolling morals definitely sounds Dark Angel, what with protecting the Imperium one minute and wiping out a Black Templar crusade the next and all...

OH, you mean MORALE! Let's leave that trick for Chaos, the Loyalists already can recover a panic run for free.

If you would stop being a smart *** for two seconds making fun of my typo, you would of got the point of my post.



(Example. Personally I'd give the other marines a re-roll moral rule or something, but keep "they shall know no fear" a codex marine rule to make it more unique.)


If you read my post, I just said Blood Angles, Dark Angles, Space Wolves, and Black Templar should not[b] have "They shall know no fear"...... As in [b]they shouldn't be able to re-group for free.

Only Codex Marines should be able to re-group for free.

It's already bad enought that all the mariens share the same stats, Wargear, and vheclies. But the fact they share the same special rules just make it feel like I'm playing ageist different shades of grey all the time.

It's the reason why "count-as" armies is such a problem. Their is hardly any differences between all the different MEQ's at this point. Soon they might as well just compile all the MEQ into one book, if they share just going to share EVERYTHING.
=/

(I don't mind their being more then one marine codex. But if your going to do it the rules should be different enough to justify it.)


With a streamlined 8th ed fantasy, allot of the player base in my area including my self have switched to fantasy at this point. At least in that game we aren't playing ageist the same army over and over, the only difference being painting green, black, red or riding giant wolves.


At this point Dark angles could just be a SC in the standard codex.

[Vaktathi]

I know that we will never GW's thoughts on the DA, but what are you opions as to what GW has done to the First Legion. GW seems to have taken away everything that DA do and given it to all the new kids. Termie troops used to be a DA only thing, as best I can tell. Now the GK, SW and if rumours become true, so too the BT. Ditto the all biker army. Except for White Scars, DA had that in the bag too. And if BT get some "inner circle", what will that leave us with. A Necron level ret-con?

There is ALMOST no reason to play a DA army with all our toys handed out. And the SM codex is better for everything we can do. I'd rather not hop codex's until the new DA book comes out, but what choice do we have?

I guess this turned more into a rant/vent

The only reasons to play DA in the first place, as a separate book at least, were FoC changes, and lets be honest, that alone does not make an army. They really never should have been their own book. Organizationally they are much closer to codex than many of the chapters in C:SM, and it's not like they have *more* bikes or Terminators than other chapters, they just field them en-masse instead of in support of larger formations as a matter of routine as opposed to an exception as other chapters do. That shouldn't make a Codex. Much the same could be (and is) said of other loyalist marine books (BA's likewise especially never really needed their own book until they went off last year and made up a whole bunch of new stuff out of nowhere, but even then is about 80/85% identical or slight variations on stuff out of C:SM), but with the Dark Angels it is most apparent. The sad fact is that no, there isn't a reason to run DA simply for their rules, and they really never needed their own book in the first place when primarily it simply amounted to a few characters and a couple of FoC swaps.

[Lockark]

The only reasons to play DA in the first place, as a separate book at least, were FoC changes, and lets be honest, that alone does not make an army. They really never should have been their own book. Organizationally they are much closer to codex than many of the chapters in C:SM, and it's not like they have *more* bikes or Terminators than other chapters, they just field them en-masse instead of in support of larger formations as a matter of routine as opposed to an exception as other chapters do. That shouldn't make a Codex. Much the same could be (and is) said of other loyalist marine books (BA's likewise especially never really needed their own book until they went off last year and made up a whole bunch of new stuff out of nowhere, but even then is about 80/85% identical or slight variations on stuff out of C:SM), but with the Dark Angels it is most apparent. The sad fact is that no, there isn't a reason to run DA simply for their rules, and they really never needed their own book in the first place when primarily it simply amounted to a few characters and a couple of FoC swaps.

A Dark angle character in C:SM that let Sargents buy relic blades, and make all plasma weapons master crafted.

Done'.

[SotonShades]

If I remember correctly from back when I started playing (a good few years before the current DA codex), DA had a uniquely high amount of access to plasma weaponry amongst the Imperial forces. I believe the current amount of plasma availible is pretty much the same as the normal C:SM, so give them that option back. There is something about plasma armed Terminators that really appeals to me for some reason :P

I'd also like to see the three wings of the DA re-enphasised. Have a benefit for taking an all Deathwing or Ravenwing army, and bring back the Ironwing. Of course the benefits shouldn't be so great as to perclude the use of a balanced force, taking from all the aspects of the DA. Having an emphasis on the different circles of the DA fluff would also be nice. From what I understand, rank does not necessarilly equal which circle a Dark Angel may be in, so why not do something akin to (not just a copy paste of) the SW sagas, but rather than just the leaders, allow individual marines to some limited extent to be improved? Having a squad with the equivalent of 2 sergeant's in it or a particularly veteran weapons specialist or the like would be an interesting dynamic. As we've seen in the past, forcing specific placement of units, or models within units, to enable special rules (such as the close order drill regimental doctrine in the old guard codex) is folly; so no units deployd in circles, which is a shame lol. Except possibly allowing squads to fall back into a tight circle (similar to deep strike deployment formation) if they are going to be assaulted, rather than moving in as normal would be interesting. If nothing else, it would usually reduce the number of assaulting models attacking; sounds like a solid defencive tactic to me. On the other hand you would be horribly clustered for any template based assault abilities.

I may have gone a little off track here lol. Just spit-balling ideas really

[Charistoph]

If you would stop being a smart *** for two seconds making fun of my typo, you would of got the point of my post.

Right back at ya.



If you read my post, I just said Blood Angles, Dark Angles, Space Wolves, and Black Templar should not[b] have "They shall know no fear"...... As in [b]they shouldn't be able to re-group for free.

Only Codex Marines should be able to re-group for free.

It's already bad enought that all the mariens share the same stats, Wargear, and vheclies. But the fact they share the same special rules just make it feel like I'm playing ageist different shades of grey all the time.

It's the reason why "count-as" armies is such a problem. Their is hardly any differences between all the different MEQ's at this point. Soon they might as well just compile all the MEQ into one book, if they share just going to share EVERYTHING.
=/

(I don't mind their being more then one marine codex. But if your going to do it the rules should be different enough to justify it.)


With a streamlined 8th ed fantasy, allot of the player base in my area including my self have switched to fantasy at this point. At least in that game we aren't playing ageist the same army over and over, the only difference being painting green, black, red or riding giant wolves.


At this point Dark angles could just be a SC in the standard codex.

And I said, no, let's leave the Ld reroll to Chaos Marines, the Loyalists already regroup for free, and that's how they should be. Unless you're saying that the Unforgiven have even MORE reason to be Unforgiven than just half their Legion turning to Chaos...

[Lockark]

And I said, no, let's leave the Ld reroll to Chaos Marines, the Loyalists already regroup for free, and that's how they should be. Unless you're saying that the Unforgiven have even MORE reason to be Unforgiven than just half their Legion turning to Chaos...

I don't care if your a loyalist. Auto-regrouping should be something done only by thows who accept Guilliman as their spiritual liege, and fight by the tactics he wrote down in the codex.

If the other loyalists are so diffrent and refuse his teachings that it demands a stand alone book, then why are they using his special rules?


Dark Angles, Space Wolves, Blood Angles, and Black Templar should not be allowed to re-group for free. When they play thier special rules should be significantly different from C:SM. Other wise if their just going to give them all of C:SM stuff, they should just make them a special character in C:SM.

[Charistoph]

I don't care if your a loyalist. Auto-regrouping should be something done only by thows who accept Guilliman as their spiritual liege, and fight by the tactics he wrote down in the codex.

If the other loyalists are so diffrent and refuse his teachings that it demands a stand alone book, then why are they using his special rules?


Dark Angles, Space Wolves, Blood Angles, and Black Templar should not be allowed to re-group for free. When they play thier special rules should be significantly different from C:SM. Other wise if their just going to give them all of C:SM stuff, they should just make them a special character in C:SM.

Ultras get Combat Tactics, Blood Angels get the Rage, Wolves get Counter Attack, Chaos has Icons, and Black Templar get Fearless in Assault as well as that reactionary rule. Dark Angels need something themselves, true, other than being emo gets.

Did I miss something?

[Soups]

I don't care if your a loyalist. Auto-regrouping should be something done only by thows who accept Guilliman as their spiritual liege, and fight by the tactics he wrote down in the codex.


Other than the fact that the barn door is open, the horses are gone, I don't see how "And They Shall Know No Fear" has anything to do with Chapter Tactics.

Space Marines=Flexible Army
Blood Angels=Assaulty Army
Space Wolves=Shooty Army?(After reading the books, they are the wolfy army. Or Blood Angels 2.0 only the original developers know.)

What the other Codecies should be?

Dark Angels=wargear army. They should have some really cool stuff.
Black Templar=...Grey knights? Err...Combat army?

GW kind of screwed the pooch with splitting marines as much as they did. But, hopefully with people getting paid to think about this, and more than 5 minutes at a computer, I'm hopeful the nest 2 marine books will feel like more than the Black/Robe Marine Book.

[Dalleron]

GW probably did shoot themselves in the foot when they gave the Angel Armies their own book, then books individually. But as anyone probably knows, that was done purely for money.

ATSKNF is purely a fluff rule. Otherwise, loyalist marines would actually lose like everyone else.

And as DA are "regular space marines", and follow the codex Astartes otherwise, I see no reason why they can't regroup for free.

[computertrucker]

Hey all I am new to the forums. Funny this is the first thread I came across.

I am just recently getting back into 40k. After being away for a decade. I hadnt played a game since 1999. However reading over some of the things said in the post fluff wise I would say alot of changes. Someone said earlier in the post that The Dark Angels didnt have more equipment its just the way they use it. Not sure how the fluff reads now about the chapter, however I still have the original White Dwarf from Rogue trader days that introduced the Deathwing ( I also have the old Deathwing Space Hulk set that talks about the native indian fluff) However it did actually say when The Deathwing were first introduced. That the Dark Angels First company was the legendary Deathwing which had 100 suits of Terminator Armour, which is more than any other Chapter of Marines has access to and enough to field the entire Company in Terminator Armour. No other chapter had this capability.

Coming back to the game. I thought long and hard about getting back into the Dark Angels. I no longer have my minitures though. Anyway I decided instead to go with the Ultramarines.

I will say I have to agree that The Dark Angels do need something to help to Define them differently. Now the Black Templar are fearless it seems. The Deathwing used to be immune to pscyhology I dont have the new (old Codex) but wouldnt that make them fearless by todays standard?

I will say that being able to equip the deathwing with mixed loadouts would be a great way to go. Also The Deathwing used to be able to upgrade their Squad Sgt. To a champion level. Used to be just be called a Veteran Sgt. But this could be changed to be more fluffy.

Anyway just thought I would pipe in on this conversation.

[bigyounk]

Here are my ideas to make the 1st Legion more like themselves:

1. They used to be Stubborn, so replace chapter tactics with that.

2. They use an inordinate amount of plasma weapons so let them upgrade tac squads with plasma guns and cannons for free.

3. Bring back Asmodi and SGT Namaan. Also put Cypher in either the new DA or C:SM book.

4. Bring back a "Hunt for the Fallen" rule in some shape.

5. They do not need most of the new units ie: Thunderfire Cannons, Sternguard, Vanguard or Ironclads. I would add the LS Storm.

6. Their fluff usually infers that the Deathwing are the best Terminators in the Imperium so I would change them to reflect this. Let them go up to 10 man squads, choice of weapons, and allow them to assault when Deep Striking in conjunction with the Ravenwing.

7. Keep their table wide Psychic hood and the two teirs of Chaplains.

8. Revamp Belail, Sammael, Ezekial and Azrael to bring them up to the current standards of SM heroes.

Just my 2 cents worth. I do play them and have about 90% of the 3rd Company plus some DW and RW to boot.

[rosco]

I do agree the current da book isn't all that great but we need to remember it was the first geared to 5th ed. We also need to remember the da's are one of a few marine books that allow a 5 man troop unit to have a special weapon unlike the ba and regular marine that bot require a full 10 man team for a flamer. Our bikes and termie squads are also fearless which brings it's own set of pros and cons. Don't forget our libraians may suck but they are I5, the same with the chaplins. The captains still have rites of battle to pass along that ld10 for those iffy ld checks

[computertrucker]

Actually vanilla marines can take one special weapon creation for each 5ththe member of the terminator squad. DA have the advantage of mixing special CC weapons into the squad with regular loadout. Giving them a more combined arms approach

[Wolfrahm]

Deathwing should be able to take 2 hvy weapons and maybe give them furious charge. Beliel needs str modifier for sword of silence.

Ravenwing needs skilled rider and some other special rules.

Da just need to be reworked.

[Dalleron]

I don't know of it would be an issue, but what direction do they take with Dark Angels. As they stand right now, they really don't have any connection with their primarch. Or do they just concentrate on the DA ceaseless hunt for the fallen, as it is mostly now. Would this make the new codex too broad and lose focus, leaving with a mess?