Making Deathmarks work

[Maelstorm]

I accidentally placed this over on the general 40k topics forum - I've copied it here in the correct location!

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Basic Deathmark units need to be taken in sets of 2 to be effective. Mark 2 targets and both units will wound on a 2+ vs. each other's targets. Great for board control.

To make Deathmarks useful at long range add a Cryptek - Harbinger of Transmogrification with a Harp of Dissonance (infinite range). Remove the armour from a Grey Knight Baby carrier anywhere on the table. Fixes the 24" range issue! Park them in-cover on your side of the board and plink away at uber-units across the board. With 2 Deathmark units and 2 Harps you can cover most of the board and abuse each others "Marked for Death" targets.

For Deathmark Deep Strike abuse - a Harbinger of Despair (finally - a use for the oddball staff!). Strength 8, AP1 Template - but with the "Marked for Death" rule they wound on a 2+ instead of the goofy leadership roll (usually a 3+ or 4+). Deep strike in and wipe-out almost any unit in the game in one shot. Ignores FNP and 2+ saves. Not bad for a 125 point squad (including Cryptek).

[Maelstorm]

I've found the deep-strike suggestion popping up on multiple sites today. Looks like it's making the rounds quickly...

[Sonikgav]

Does the Marked for Death rule ("Hunters from Hyperspace") apply to attatched Charachters though or just the Deathmarks?

It does say 'when unit of Deathmarks....' not a unit containing Deathmarks.

[Maelstorm]

From the Royal Court entry:
Before the battle, each member of the Royal Court has the option of being split off from his unit and assigned to lead a different unit from the following list: Necron Warriors, Necron Immortals, Lychguard or Deathmarks."

Once assigned, they permanently become part of the unit (unlike a basic or Character HQ that can detach from a unit) - Go forth and drop the Shroud of Despair on Terminators, Longfangs, Paladin squads....

[Necron2.0]

From the Royal Court entry:
Before the battle, each member of the Royal Court has the option of being split off from his unit and assigned to lead a different unit from the following list: Necron Warriors, Necron Immortals, Lychguard or Deathmarks."

Once assigned, they permanently become part of the unit (unlike a basic or Character HQ that can detach from a unit) - Go forth and drop the Shroud of Despair on Terminators, Longfangs, Paladin squads....

Boy, I hope this gets errata, because what you've mentioned doesn't really clear up the issue at all. It would be just as correct to say the unit with the Cryptek loses "Hunters from Hyperspace" because it no longer is a "unit of Deathmarks." It's now a unit with Deathmarks.

[Ketharim]

Nothing to discuss here from my point of view. Rule says all Deathmarks wound on 2+. A Cryptek even so he joined the unit permanently, will never become a Deathmark.

[Maelstorm]

The Deathmark rule says "unit", the Cryptek is permanently part of the unit.

In the recent brb FAQ it gives an example of a model joining a unit with Stealth, the new model is given Stealth even if it did not have it before joining.

[Sonikgav]

Theres a difference though between special rules that effect the unit, and special rules that effect models in the unit.

If you want to argue that then why dont all IC's that join a unit with Furious Charge or Counter Charge get the same benefit etc?

[Brymm]

Crypteks joining a unit are not IC's. They never have been. They never will be. They are NOT independent characters. They can't leave the unit. They do not have the independent character rule.
The rule of "independent character" is not in the cryptek entry.
Crypteks are just like Wolf Guard. Read the FAQ's on them. That should clear this mess up.
Again, before you type any reply, CRYPTEKS ARE NOT INDEPENDENT CHARACTERS. So take anything you would type about Crypteks doing this and that because they are independent characters, remember that they are not and revise what you are about to type.
To quote the FAQ on the Space Wolves, since there is no Necron FAQ yet:...

"Q. Can a Wolf Scout Pack with a Wolf Guard Pack Leader
assigned to it deploy as Infiltrators, make a move before
the game begins because of its Scouts special rule,
choose to outflank or use Behind Enemy Lines? (p86)
A. Yes, to all of the above, because the Wolf Guard Pack
Leader is not an Independent Character and therefore the
fact he does not have the Infiltrate or Scouts special rule
does not preclude the squad he has joined from using
those abilities."

[Sonikgav]

Ignore my use of IC. I meant Charachter in general. Its a force of habit that most Charachters were IC's. No need for a whole chapter nitpicking my use of terms.

And yes i agree, the addition of a charachter like a Wolf Guard doesnt stop the unit using the ability because he is a permanent part of the unit he gets taken along. Likewise a cryptek being added to the unit doesnt stop the Deathmarks using the rule, but he doesnt have it himself.

Kind of a poor example though with the scouts as its a rule to allow deployment and as such a special case to allow a charachter to deploy with his unit in the same way that the Cryptek would be allowed to use the Deathmarks deepstrike rule. Once theyre on the field though, a better example would be if a WolfGuard joining a unit of Bloodclaws gain the Bezerk Charge rule etc?

I beleive in that example it even goes so far as to say it doesnt apply, proving that not all special rules transfer to the entire unit (as i mentioned earlier, Furious charge/Counter Charge) etc

How about the Traveller in the necron army. He may give a unit of Immortals the two rules above. Would this also be passed onto the Crypteks since they arent actually Immortals? It specifically says the Immortals are upgraded but doesnt mention attatched charachters?

[Brymm]

The Cryptek gets to use the Deathmarks rules because he is part of the unit. The Necron codex refers to the "Deathmark unit," NOT "Deathmarks." The Cryptek is part of the Deathmark unit just like a Wolfguard is part of the Scout unit. Just like a Sargent is part of a Spacemarine unit. Just like a Nob is part of a unit of Boyz. You can't pull those units out. You can't allocate attacks to that character. That guy is part of the unit.

Because a rule such as And They Shall Know No Fear doesn't specifically state Sargents in the list doesn't mean he doesn't benefit from the rule because he isn't a Space Marine like his men. Or it doesn't mean that a Plague Champion doesn't get Feel No Pain because he isn't a Plague Marine.

The Cryptek or Lord from the Royal Court becomes part of the unit, just like a Sargent or Aspiring Champion or Nob or whatever name you want to have for a Character upgrade for a unit. He is part of the unit, can't be singled out, can't be split off and benefits from whatever rules the unit as a whole benefits from.

Whatever affects the "Deathmark unit" affects the Cryptek because he is part of the Deathmark unit. End of story.

Now as far as INDEPENDENT characters go, you are right. You drop Immotek into a unit of Deathmarks, he is NOT part of the Deathmark unit and doesn't share abilities because he is an INDEPENDENT CHARACTER.

[Sonikgav]

Again, im not reffering to IC's in any way.

And no, attatched Charachters do not equal Squad upgrades, many of these squads already have squad Sergeants of their own, an attatched charachter is an attatched charachter with his own set of rules and even a different statline from time to time. They are completely different otherwise what stops you applying their benefits to the rest of the squad if theyre classed as the same unit?

Does this mean the Crypteks dont get to use Ever Living, the rest of the unit doesnt have it? Do you want to get into the argument as to wether or not a Cryptek counts as a model of that unit for Reanimation Protocols cos i know that ones still raging?

To me, yes, its part of the unit, but it doesnt magically become a copy of the models in that unit. A WolfGuard doesnt become a Bloodclaw, a Cryptek doesnt become a Deathmark.

[thecactusman17]

Sonikgav, I'm looking at the rule here and they are right. There is nothing to suggest that the models don't get the awesome deathmark effects, because the UNIT is getting affected, not the individual models. This may change, but it may not. The Harbinger of Despair, for example, can still roll a 2+ vs. leadership (though it will not typically cause instant death, as it is still vs. Leadership and not toughness).

BTW, the Abyssal staff gets its full S8 AP1 against vehicles. Darn impressive that.

We can now abuse the living crap out of about 6 units in this codex. At least for the duration of 5th edition, Necrons are by far the most broken codex in the game, as far as blatant and subtle rule abuses are concerned. And given it's from Matt "Ultramarine" Ward, that' just darn funny.

[Maelstorm]

From the the BRB:
"Some Codex books allow you to field characters together with a special unit that they cannot leave during the game (which is usually a 'retinue', 'bodyguard' or similar). Where this is the case, the character counts as an upgrade character until all of the other memebers of this unit are killed, at which point it starts counting as an independant character and it will do so for the rest of the game"

The Cryptek cannot leave the Deathmark unit during the game. It is an upgrade to the Deathmark unit.

"Marked for Death" applies to the "Deathmark unit" - of which the Cryptek is now a member.

Until the FAQ possibly nerfs it, it works. Enjoy!

[thecactusman17]

Even more importantly, Maelstrom, when the Deathmarks die, the Cryptek technically remains a Deathmark for purposes of their rules, because for the whole game he is a part of the deathmarks unit.

Not that I don't realize and agree that such is an utterly stupid idea, but it's true from a strict RAW basis.

[Sonikgav]

Even more importantly, Maelstrom, when the Deathmarks die, the Cryptek technically remains a Deathmark for purposes of their rules, because for the whole game he is a part of the deathmarks unit.

Not that I don't realize and agree that such is an utterly stupid idea, but it's true from a strict RAW basis.

It does at least say that if his unit dies he reverts to being an IC. Id be surprised if you could still argue he is a Deathmark at that point.

Ok, ill conceed that RAW that may be it, however ill be waiting for that FAQ to come out to put it straight and i doubt ill play against anyone trying to abuse this 'trick', Same as those that tryied to abuse the Psyker Battle Squad/Culexus Assassin crossover till they killed it.

[Brymm]

I don't know if they'll nerf it. I feel there's stuff out there that can be just as brutal for a similar amount of points. If you care to try the Deepstrike/template/2+wounds thing with that unit, then I feel you should be able to try. The Daemons Codex can use Flamers of Tzeentch (like 6 of them!) in such a fashion, by why throw away a unit like that? That's 155 points to attempt their trick and will most likely be killed shortly after. It's extra bad because the template weapon doesn't affect vehicles.
So, I don't know, is it worth it to risky deep strike to take out an infantry unit (assuming one that is out of it's box) then be mulched up because you are in the heart of the enemy?
Armies like Chaos Marines can attempt stuff like this a little cheaper and better IMO, where you can deep strike 3 combimelta or combiflamer termies for 105.
Or Guard can do Marbo for 65! SIXTY FIVE! Without a scatter roll! AND he gets a Str 8 Ap2 Large Blast. It's nuts.
So is the Cryptek being in the deathmark unit overpowered? No way.

[Sonikgav]

I don't know if they'll nerf it. I feel there's stuff out there that can be just as brutal for a similar amount of points. If you care to try the Deepstrike/template/2+wounds thing with that unit, then I feel you should be able to try. The Daemons Codex can use Flamers of Tzeentch (like 6 of them!) in such a fashion, by why throw away a unit like that? That's 155 points to attempt their trick and will most likely be killed shortly after. It's extra bad because the template weapon doesn't affect vehicles.
So, I don't know, is it worth it to risky deep strike to take out an infantry unit (assuming one that is out of it's box) then be mulched up because you are in the heart of the enemy?
Armies like Chaos Marines can attempt stuff like this a little cheaper and better IMO, where you can deep strike 3 combimelta or combiflamer termies for 105.
Or Guard can do Marbo for 65! SIXTY FIVE! Without a scatter roll! AND he gets a Str 8 Ap2 Large Blast. It's nuts.
So is the Cryptek being in the deathmark unit overpowered? No way.

I like how you leave out that all these options can only infiltrate/deepstrike once or that their weapons are one off 'blow your load' options, or at least need to roll to hit.

These guys can show up, roll a handfull of 2's then disappear to the other side of the board and do it again all for less than 150 points.

[thecactusman17]

It does at least say that if his unit dies he reverts to being an IC. Id be surprised if you could still argue he is a Deathmark at that point.

Ok, ill conceed that RAW that may be it, however ill be waiting for that FAQ to come out to put it straight and i doubt ill play against anyone trying to abuse this 'trick', Same as those that tryied to abuse the Psyker Battle Squad/Culexus Assassin crossover till they killed it.

Nope. Court models aren't ICs, and nothing in their rules states otherwise. It's a poorly written rule. You are thinking about the Retinue/Bodyguard rule, which is codex specific and isn't in any of the remaining codexes except Tau and maybe Black Templars. In this case, the Court model will never gain the benefits of Independant Character, nor will it gain the penalties. And because it is part of a Deathmark unit until the unit is completely destroyed, it is quite possible that it could still possess some of the Deathmark unit-wide rules when they all die and he survives. Though that is unlikely at best...

[Sonikgav]

Nope. Court models aren't ICs, and nothing in their rules states otherwise. It's a poorly written rule. You are thinking about the Retinue/Bodyguard rule, which is codex specific and isn't in any of the remaining codexes except Tau and maybe Black Templars. In this case, the Court model will never gain the benefits of Independant Character, nor will it gain the penalties. And because it is part of a Deathmark unit until the unit is completely destroyed, it is quite possible that it could still possess some of the Deathmark unit-wide rules when they all die and he survives. Though that is unlikely at best...

Except for the quote that the OP has been throwing around.

From the the BRB:
"Some Codex books allow you to field characters together with a special unit that they cannot leave during the game (which is usually a 'retinue', 'bodyguard' or similar). Where this is the case, the character counts as an upgrade character until all of the other memebers of this unit are killed, at which point it starts counting as an independant character and it will do so for the rest of the game"

[Tynskel]

:)

[Brymm]

I like how you leave out that all these options can only infiltrate/deepstrike once or that their weapons are one off 'blow your load' options, or at least need to roll to hit.

These guys can show up, roll a handfull of 2's then disappear to the other side of the board and do it again all for less than 150 points.

What I am getting at is that if you do manage to land the deepstrike where you can hit every guy in the unit with your template and rifles and manage to wipe the unit you're shooting at (which you should), you're still stuck on an island for the opponents entire turn. At this point, the unit is a suicide unit. It is a suicide unit because it is a unit that has nothing going for it in terms of defense. It can't stand up in assualt. It doesn't have some zany save. At this point, it should be dead on your opponents turn. Am I wrong in thinking this way?

So in this case, your unit is a 150 point throw away. Is that bad? Not if you wax a 200 pt Terminator squad. Or a scoring unit off of an objective. I just don't ever see you getting more than one shot with the template weapon.

Or used to shoot stuff with rifles from cover, then deep striking late in the game to contest an objective or wipe a squad off of an objective. I might have been premature in saying it's overpriced, but I stand by that there are much better options out there in other codexes... but I guess that's moot because we're not playing with other codexes now, are we?

[The Dave]

Maybe I'm just reading the first one wrong but I don't see how the harp suddenly makes Deathmarks "great at long range" or how that "fixes the 24" issue", like, at all.

As for the second comment, I'm in the camp that knows that RAW states the Cryptek will become a Deathmark for all intents and purposes. HOWEVER, you are either forgetting or misreading this whole thing:

Template wounds vs. Leadership
Deathmarks wound on 2+

So, since the rules contradict each other (you DO wound on 2+, you DON'T wound on 2+), the core rulebook FAQ states that you must roll off at the beginning of the game (or the first time this becomes an issue during the game) to see which rule works.

You CANNOT just ignore the fact that the weapon still says to wound vs Leadership. It would be a roll-off, which does suck.

[thecactusman17]

Nothing says you can't wound on a 2+ with a leadership based weapon. S10 vs. Ld 8 (like Vect's blast weapon) do it easily. The weapon just wounds on a 2+ against that lone unit, and the comparative strength vs. toughness (or in this case, leadership) means that in most cases you won't cause instant death.

Again, the staff still wounds on a 2+, just like the Deathmarks sniper weapons wound on a 2+ instead of their normal 4+.

[Maelstorm]

Maybe I'm just reading the first one wrong but I don't see how the harp suddenly makes Deathmarks "great at long range" or how that "fixes the 24" issue", like, at all.

The Harp of Dissonance has "infinite" range, so basically anything within LOS on the table. Two Deathmark units with an embedded Cryptek in each with an infinite ranged weapon that wounds on a 2+ against 2 Marked for Death units. Excellent for pulling the armour off a Monstrous Creature. With a 2+ save, twice each turn your opponent has a 1 in 6 chance of losing the armor from an uber unit. Once stripped, move on to the other "Marked for Death" unit and repeat.

Even without Scarabs on the table or "Marked for Death", a Harp of Dissonance has a 50% chance of taking 1 (or 2 with a 2nd unit) from the armor of a Land Raider, Vendetta, Storm Raven, Chimera, etc. After the 2nd shot of turn 2 a Deathstar Land Raider can have AV10, a Storm Raven AV8 - much easier for the rest of your army to deal with. Pen a Storm Raven with any Str4 weapon on the table on a 5 or 6 = fun. A scary Dreadnought falls into your back lines? Reduce FA to AV10 or AV11 with just 2 shots in 1 turn. The same Harp hits at Str6 will pen that AV10 on a 5-6.

The Harp is perfect for setting up an "Explodes" result on a min/max unit toy box parked on an objective.

Necrons are not going to be a "point and click" easy-button army. If you are a weak player who wants to feel "competetive" stop reading this and get the latest Net-list GK, IG or SW and play wallet hammer.

[Skari]

I can see death marks used as a way to deal with mephy, and other MC's. Remember the rending!

[Jwolf]

@ Sonikgrav - Crypteks are not bought with a special unit (like a bodyguard), so the rule you are quoting is unrelated to them.

It seems fairly obvious that the rules applied to Wolfguard joined to units are the closest (and probably the same), so a Cryptek joined to a Deathmark unit is a member of that unit (which is how all the rules regarding the unit are activated) for all purposes, even when there are no other members of the unit left. So the template will wound on a 2+ against a marked unit, which is pretty awesome, and that will be the case even if all the Deathmarks in the Deathmark unit are dead - the Cryptek is the last robot in the unit.

[Brymm]

I think that even the Tremor Stave will be pretty sweet with these guys. I think having the blast template that wounds on a 2+ ain't so bad.
Also, don't buy 3 boxes of Immortals to make these guys. Get one box of Warriors and one box of Immortals. Build 5 Immortals with Blasters, 5 Warriors with Tesla (and plasticard should pads), and 5 Warriors with Deathmark heads and guns (and plasticcard shoulderpads). This saves you around $30 retail and requires little conversion. I initially thought that I wouldn't be using Deathmarks until the next edition, but I might have to give them a try!

[Sonikgav]

@ Sonikgrav - Crypteks are not bought with a special unit (like a bodyguard), so the rule you are quoting is unrelated to them.

Except they are, its called a Royal Court.

Just because theyre bought differently to what people think are upgrade charachters doesnt make them any different. Wolfguard and Crypteks work the same as things like Snikrot or other upgrade Chars. Generally those charachters already share the rules of a unit they join to avoid these arguments but as soon as the unit is dead those Charachters (including the Cryptek) revert to being treated like an IC, its there in plain text in the BGB.

Dont throw RAW in my face to get the benefit of the template then ignore it when you want to claim a different benefit.

[Tynskel]

I think that even the Tremor Stave will be pretty sweet with these guys. I think having the blast template that wounds on a 2+ ain't so bad.
Also, don't buy 3 boxes of Immortals to make these guys. Get one box of Warriors and one box of Immortals. Build 5 Immortals with Blasters, 5 Warriors with Tesla (and plasticard should pads), and 5 Warriors with Deathmark heads and guns (and plasticcard shoulderpads). This saves you around $30 retail and requires little conversion. I initially thought that I wouldn't be using Deathmarks until the next edition, but I might have to give them a try!

Yes, I use Cryptek with Tremor Staff and Seismic Stone.
One of the best ways to use them:

1) Your target unit comes in-- deep strike the Deathmarks ~18" away, hopefully in some sort of LoS blocker/terrain.

2) move to 12" rapid fire (possibly pinning the unit)
3) tremor staff 'hits' and makes the unit in difficult terrain (backup plan to pinning)
4) seismic stone subtracts the charge distance.

Essentially, with the combined effect of pinning, difficult terrain, and loss of assault range, you have a very good chance of getting 2 rounds of fire on your intended target. That's pretty good, and very effective when you combine the rending and 2+ to wound.

[thecactusman17]

Except they are, its called a Royal Court.

Just because theyre bought differently to what people think are upgrade charachters doesnt make them any different. Wolfguard and Crypteks work the same as things like Snikrot or other upgrade Chars. Generally those charachters already share the rules of a unit they join to avoid these arguments but as soon as the unit is dead those Charachters (including the Cryptek) revert to being treated like an IC, its there in plain text in the BGB.

I'm thinking we are talking about two different hings, or I'm failing to communicate with you how this works.

Bodyguards and retinues act differently than this in a critical way: the model everyone is joined to really is an Independent Character who gets the IC benefits if he doesn't have a bodyguard, whether that's by killing off the attached squad or not buying it at all. The difference is that the character is forced to join the squad if they are purchased, and may not voluntarily leave.

This doesn't affect Crypteks, and just to offer a bit of supporting evidence, here's an example from the Space Wolves FAQ which clearly demonstrates that your interpretation is incorrect:



Q. Can a Wolf Scout Pack with a Wolf Guard Pack Leader
assigned to it deploy as Infiltrators, make a move before
the game begins because of its Scouts special rule,
choose to outflank or use Behind Enemy Lines? (p86)
A. Yes, to all of the above, because the Wolf Guard Pack
Leader is not an Independent Character and therefore the
fact he does not have the Infiltrate or Scouts special rule
does not preclude the squad he has joined from using
those abilities.



Note the important part of this rule as it relates to our Necron question: the model is not part of the original unit, but benefits from their special rules because he is still part of the unit, and the unit, not the individual models, gains the listed effects.

[Maelstorm]

+1 Excellent note.