C'Tan Shard Necrodermis

[Lord Anubis]

Simple question-- do C'Tan Shards have a regular armor save? Put another way, are they 4+(4+) ?

Necrodermis is listed as a piece of wargear, and invulnerable wargear saves aren't listen in anyone else's stat line (Imotekh and Orikan, for example). There have been models in the past that get rules with phrasing such as "their 4+ save is invulnerable," but that's not what it says here. It would seem that if the Shard had no armor save, the stat line would say "---" for armor and then give the rules for Necrodermis

I suppose the same holds true for the Canoptek Wraith. Regular save and invulnerable save, or just invulnerable save?

[thecactusman17]

Simple question-- do C'Tan Shards have a regular armor save? Put another way, are they 4+(4+) ?

Necrodermis is listed as a piece of wargear, and invulnerable wargear saves aren't listen in anyone else's stat line (Imotekh and Orikan, for example). There have been models in the past that get rules with phrasing such as "their 4+ save is invulnerable," but that's not what it says here. It would seem that if the Shard had no armor save, the stat line would say "---" for armor and then give the rules for Necrodermis

I suppose the same holds true for the Canoptek Wraith. Regular save and invulnerable save, or just invulnerable save?

The Shard has a 4+/4++ save. Sv. always refers to an armor save unless the rules state otherwise. Because invulnerable-ignoring weapons no longer exist (though there are weapons that allow no saves at all) the model should essentially just be considered to have a 4+ save at all times.

The model's high toughness is its primary means of defense, the 4++ invul is only there to protect from force weapons and anti-tank weapons.

[plawolf]

I think the issue that is really behind this question is what happens if a shard gets shield-breaker shot by a vindicare? If the shard has a 4+/4++, it will still have an armour save. Overwise it gets no saves after the vindi shoots off his Inv save.

[thecactusman17]

I think the issue that is really behind this question is what happens if a shard gets shield-breaker shot by a vindicare? If the shard has a 4+/4++, it will still have an armour save. Overwise it gets no saves after the vindi shoots off his Inv save.

Nope. Shieldbreaker only takes away saves given by wargear. This one is inherent to the model. It can't be removed.

[Lord Anubis]

Actually, no. The Ctan's invulnerable save comes from its necrodermis, which is wargear. The Vindicaire could shoot it off.

Plawolf, the Vindicaire was the loose inspiration for the question. I'd been wondering about the stat line anyway and then someone else on another thread had mentioned taking C'tan out with a Vindicaire.

[thecactusman17]

Actually, no. The Ctan's invulnerable save comes from its necrodermis, which is wargear. The Vindicaire could shoot it off.

Plawolf, the Vindicaire was the loose inspiration for the question. I'd been wondering about the stat line anyway and then someone else on another thread had mentioned taking C'tan out with a Vindicaire.

You know what, I reread that part and you're right. The Necrodermis IS Wargear. Which is a stupid idea, they are literally made of the stuff.

[plawolf]

You know what, I reread that part and you're right. The Necrodermis IS Wargear. Which is a stupid idea, they are literally made of the stuff.

Indeed. What's even more amusing is that if a shard gets shieldbreaker shot, it doesn't blow up either after it dies. :rolleyes:

Moral of the story, if you are a necron player running shards and the enemy has a vindicare on the board, then he is a top top priority target.

However, after review, I believe the shard does have a 4+ armor save. The first example where I can think of where a model only has an inv save is the Daemonhost in the GK codex, and the statline for the Daemonhost has a '-' for armor save.

So based on that, I am inclined to argue that the save expressed in the statline is the default armor save. If the model has an additional inv save, that is explained in writing in the unit's rules.

But the Vindicare would still be a top priority as a 4+ armor save is very easily ignored, especially by the kind of high strength weapons one would normally use against such a high toughness target.

[DarkLink]

You're all surprised that a Vindicare can shoot someone's skin off? It makes perfect sense to me:rolleyes:.

[thecactusman17]

Vindicaires: possibly the first target of your Scarab conga line.

[DarkLink]

Scarab conga lines are a possible first target for my Paladins:).

[thecactusman17]

Your paladins are going to focus on scarab conga lines?

Wow, that really is a broken combo, you need a force that costs about 40 times as much to deal with it!

[DarkLink]

*facepalm*

No. I typically take a unit of 10 Terminators or Paladins, because they're awesome and always perform. If I also happened to take a Vindicare, then I would laugh if my opponent tried to conga his way to the Vindicare. It would give my Terminator/Paladins a first turn charge, and since I always take Rad/Psykotroke grenades they would kill the Scarabs on the charge. Then the Paladins can go on to do their thing for the rest of the game, having already killed an enemy unit and denied my opponent some of the utility of his Tomb Spiders.

[talos]

Vindicare's shieldbreaker does not remove the wargear. Just the invu. So after C'tan dies, he will explode as normal.