Who Shoots 1st

[dannyat2460]

Well here we go again with the poxy necrons,

Using eather the deathmarks or nemosor andrex (dont have codex on me to spell correctly so the toilet roll name will do for now) to deep strike in, in your oponents movement phase, the problem comes in that turns (player turn) shooting phase as the rules for deep strike (pg 95 of BRB) state that units that deep strike that turn may shoot as normal allowing your units to fire in the oponents turn.

we decided to dice off and then take it in turns at shooting units but does anyone else have an idea how to sort this paradox

[gwensdad]

Han shoot first.

oops. no ignore that.
If the BRB says they shoot AND the codex doesn't say they don't-I'd say they get a shot off. Deciding before game on the 3 options I can see for "when to shoot" is probably best (i.e. Necrons first OR alternate OR Necrons fire last)

Hopefully, they'll be a quick FAQ for this, but maybe this is a sign of something from 6th?

[dannyat2460]

yes thats the conclusion we came to but at the moment were still in 5th so its causing many headaches

[Drew da Destroya]

as the rules for deep strike (pg 95 of BRB) state that units that deep strike that turn may shoot as normal

I think the part that stands out to me is what I've quoted above. You can not normally shoot during your opponents turn, so shooting "as normal" means you don't do anything.

It's a weird rule that I expect will be clarified mostly by 6th edition, but maybe an FAQ would address it.


Also, duh, it's Han.

[SeattleDV8]

Phased Reinforcements gives you permission to Deep Strike
It does not give you permission to shoot or run in your opponets turn.

[dannyat2460]

Phased Reinforcements gives you permission to Deep Strike
It does not give you permission to shoot or run in your opponets turn.

That is true phased reinforcements dont the deepstrike rules do

[DarkLink]

Edit: Funny, the deepstrike rules do specifically state "in that turn's shooting phase the unit may shoot/run as normal".

I have to agree with Drew, that in this context "as normal" prevents this from working. Being able to "shoot as normal" in the phase after deepstriking doesn't help you since you can't normally shoot in your opponent's shooting phase.

[dannyat2460]

it says you may shoot as normal.

that to me means that you may shoot as normal, as in shoot as you normaly can no - to BS or range or anything

[Rapture]

Is there ever a modifier to BS or range? If not, then normally has to mean something so it might mean what the other are saying.

[Uncle Nutsy]

this came up a few days ago in the household.

best we can figure is they do deepstrike during the opponents turn and sit where they land until it's your turn.

[addamsfamily36]

it says you may shoot as normal.

that to me means that you may shoot as normal, as in shoot as you normaly can no - to BS or range or anything


But you cannot "normally" shoot in your opponents turn. Its the first paragraph of the shooting section of the rulebook. Shooting is done by each player in their own turn. In all game mechanics, you cannot shoot your weapon in your opponents turn.

The deepstrike rules say you can shoot as normal to clarify that you are able to shoot after deepstriking as if you had moved. Specifically noting that you count as moving (so no heavy weapons unless you have relentless) but for all other purposes you may shoot as normal. This does not change the fact you cannot shoot in your opponents turn. Yes the deepstriking deathmarks are in effect ready and "able to shoot" normally, they are not pinned, they haven't run etc etc, but you still can't shoot in your opponents turn. the rule for that simply doesn't exist.

[dannyat2460]

This does not change the fact you cannot shoot in your opponents turn..

can you please quote the rule for this

[dannyat2460]

Is there ever a modifier to BS or range? If not, then normally has to mean something so it might mean what the other are saying.

There are many wargear and special rules that lower BS and range

[DarkLink]

can you please quote the rule for this

The rule that say "you may shoot in your shooting phase".


You're only allowed to do what the rules tell you to do, not the other way around. If, and only if, the rules say that you can shoot in your opponent's turn, then you can do so. But just because there is not a rule that prevents it does not make it legal.


The interaction of the rules is unclear and leaves room for the possibility of this happening, but if you want to convince anyone you're going to need a stronger argument that "nuh-uh, the rules don't say you can't".

[addamsfamily36]

can you please quote the rule for this

Darklink has already sort of beaten me to it.

The rules state that each player shoots in his or her own shooting phase. There is no rule specifically saying you cannot shoot in your opponents turn, but there is no rule saying you can. the only rule is that each player shoots in their own turn. So any other shooting outside of that gaming parameter and phase can only be seen as "illegal" unless a piece of war gear, or special rule specifically states you may shoot in your opponents turn.

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

:/ If the writers created a rule that drastically changed the fundamental flow of the game, they would have actually pointed that out when they wrote the rule, not left it in there as a loophole. That's a pretty clear indication that the "you may shoot in your shooting phase" crowd is correct.

[Gir]

The rule that say "you may shoot in your shooting phase".


It's the exception that proves the rule. Deathmarks can't shoot in the enemies shooting phase.

[Phearon]

I see the debate, In page 95 at the 6th paragraph of the rule book states "In that TURN"S shooting phase these units can fire (or run)"
I believe they meant this when it was your turn. not the enemies. Something so important like this would have not been left out to guess who shoots first. That's my 2 cents.

'

[SotonShades]

For now I think that the Deathmarks are deepstriking and posing a potential threat that has to be dealt with that wasn't there at the start of the turn, forcing your opponant to adapt their plan for the turn rather than having a direct effect and shooting. Maybe this will change in 6th Ed, but as it doesn't specifically say in the Necron Codex that the Deathmarks are allowed to shoot in the opponants turn, only arrive via deep strike, then they won't be abllowed to shoot until the necron players turn.

[dannyat2460]

I bow to the concensus of the group

i do still argue as it is in player turn they can shoot as normal also there are plenty of other instances that allow out of phase actions to take place even in your oponents phase

but will impliment the house rule that they cant

thanks for all your imput

[MaxKool]

Not that I'm saying deathmarks can shoot when not NORMALY to.. BUT


Stormravens can fire one weapon with potms even when they go flat out.

The wording for potms is "shoot one more weapon than NORMALY allowed"
The lame thing is the faqd this to work, but when moving flat out u can NORMALY fire no weapons.
I thought it was complete cheese when I first faced it.... Tall about letting marines as usuall break rules....

I wouldn't be surprised if in 6th the dmarks will be able to shoot when they DS.
As it is right now it is very dependent on what army u face weather it will just get them vaporized....

The only combo I've tried and had it work sofar is using the namesor to deep strike some monolith's in when I don't get 1st turn and then having squads spew out of the portal. Tho I hate that I can't assault even if the monolith dosnt move... Stupid rule IMO

[Tynskel]

Power of the machine spirit is entirely consistent. Look at the examples in the book!

You can use it at cruising speed!
Normally you cannot fire any guns on a land raider at cruising speed, but the example says you can.

You should read the space marine book again- you might mix some rules up and misinterpret them...

[MaxKool]

What I ment was there are alot of things u can do while still cruising... Disembark from opentopped ect..

Flat out always ment u can't do anything and it had a bonus to make up for it(cover saves)

I to this day think moving flat out and getting to shoot is bull.
My example is that marines are exempt from so much it's realy maddening..
And I play 2 imperial armies and 2 xenos... So I'm pretty clear on how they work was just commenting hat when ever its a marine they seem to be able to get around most of the games negatives with a FAQ or rule.

There is no readin comprehension problem here man. I don't know why u always think that...
What I said still stands, based on the brb u can NORMALY take no actions when movin flat out... Yet marines can...

Yah de and eldar the supposed fastest races can't do much at flat out and have gk striking at the godlike i6...
Naw the game isn't made for 13 yr olds and their marines.... :s

Like I said tho, I think this rule will become more usefull in 6th. I just can't see spending 19pts a model on what is basically a suicide unit....

[Tynskel]

That's great your maddened by this. It should make you want to kill space marines more.

However, your logic is utteerly flawed- Power of the Machine Spirit is about shooting, not about disembarking. And besides, you CAN disembark from Stormravens moving Flat Out!

You need to read the rules for Space Marines, you are getting you head meats in a tuff!

[dannyat2460]

That's great your maddened by this. It should make you want to kill space marines more.

However, your logic is utteerly flawed- Power of the Machine Spirit is about shooting, not about disembarking. And besides, you CAN disembark from Stormravens moving Flat Out!

You need to read the rules for Space Marines, you are getting you head meats in a tuff!

Tynskel as usual your getting side tracked by little details rather than looking at the larger picture like this has nothing to do with marines!!!

[Tynskel]

Tynskel as usual your getting side tracked by little details rather than looking at the larger picture like this has nothing to do with marines!!!

Can't blame one without blaming the other. Don't single me out when I am not the only one that's causing shennanigans.

[s_harrington]

I really like this rationale of thinking.
It goes even futher to making my stormravens and land raiders more powerful.

If the deathmarks can fire in the opponents turn then...

"A landraider can fire one more weapon then would normally be permitted."
Thus on my opponents turn, I am not normally permitted to fire a weapon... +1 weapon can fire.. I can now shoot on my opponents turn!

Thank you Necron players for wishing against the permissive ruleset and further empowering the Marine dex's!

[addamsfamily36]

I was going to post a few days ago with a big happy face :D because it had been one of the first times i have seen a rules "debate" concluded with a "ok i'll concede to the majority" and everyone was all happy and had come to an agreement. However since then, power of the machine spirit has been dragged into it and what was a concluded rules "debate" which was handled quite nicely by all involved (which is rare for the internet) has now spiraled into the usual bickering.

I knew it was too good to be true. Someone somewhere had to bring it back down to reality :(

[addamsfamily36]

And re - reading my last post it sounds like I'm being a dick now too!! SEE WHAT YOU DID!!

Iv'e been trying so hard to be a good boy.

[Tynskel]

And re - reading my last post it sounds like I'm being a dick now too!! SEE WHAT YOU DID!!

Iv'e been trying so hard to be a good boy.

you are such a Jyrkwad for devolving the conversation in to a Space Marines Codex argument on a Necron Codex question.

[thecactusman17]

Power of the Machine Spirit allow the model to fire -- in the proper shooting phase, mind you -- one more weapon than would normally be allowed, excepting for when you launch smoke launchers. It represents the onboard automated systems opening fire on a target.

I do note that in 6th edition, there have been rumors of the return of Overwatch. So it is possible that the "may shoot as normal" aspect is so that you can deep strike your Deathmarks and set them into Overwatch, thus enabling a few shots in your opponent's turn.

But in 5th edition, it is simply not possible to do this. Shooting with your models in the 5th edition rulebook is held to be done during your own shooting phase according to the shooting rules. Only codex rules can allow an alternative, and that rule ahs to be explicit.

[Tynskel]

yeah, the return of overwatch would be awesome. I doubt, however, that vehicles will be able to enter overwatch. I don't remember them doing that in 2nd Edition. I could be wrong, though.

[addamsfamily36]

you are such a Jyrkwad for devolving the conversation in to a Space Marines Codex argument on a Necron Codex question.

I didn't bring marines into this thread.

[SeattleDV8]

Squads , characters and vehicles could all go into Overwatch as per the 2nd Ed. rules.

[Tynskel]

I didn't bring marines into this thread.

hah! Now you are denying it! :)

[Tynskel]

Squads , characters and vehicles could all go into Overwatch as per the 2nd Ed. rules.

Oi!

I played bugs back then, so I don't remember too much about tanks except for the silly chart of 'to hit'.

[addamsfamily36]

hah! Now you are denying it!

Can't deny something i didn't do my friend :p

i do believe maxkool brought the marines into the fray. :)

[Tynskel]

Can't deny something i didn't do my friend :p

i do believe maxkool brought the marines into the fray. :)

(I know, just giving you a hard time)
you Lie!

[addamsfamily36]

(I know, just giving you a hard time)
you Lie!

(oh thats ok then, carry on:))

I never lie........

[OdinStormfist]

Overwatch in 2nd: The models in overwatch would fire in the opponent's movement phase. It would actually interrupt the other player's movement phase as units emerged into view. I believe that it was initially removed because it was one of many things that slowed down the game and would contribute to making a game 4+ hours.

Some other rules that disappeared to streamline the game:
Armor save modifiers: instead of either getting your armor save or not, it would modify your current save. Like a Powersword I believe had a -3 so a space marine would save on a 6+. etc...
Sustained Fire Dice: an assault cannon could have up to 9 shots or 3 jams and the weapon exploded
Jammed Weapons: Weapons would fire up to 3 shots per Sustained Fire Dice or have a jam and take an extra round to be cleared per jam. some weapons were quite dangerous to use. Plasma weapons did the same on thier jam the weapon got hot and itf it killed the guy carrying it, the weapon was destroyed. Heavy Bolters used to have 2 sustained fire dice!

As you can see these added precious character to the game but the cost was time.

[Tynskel]

If you like these rules, look up necromunda. Pretty much 2nd Edition. It is also has what all those war machine freaks like about the game. Yes, GW made crazy rules in the past. Necromunda works becaus, like war machine you only use ~10 models per side.