Coming back to Fantasy

[Duke Vorian]

I have been really out of the loop with Warhammer Fantasy for the past almost two years (Yes, I was pretty much living under a rock for that time) and am considering getting back into it with the new year.

I am going to be starting fresh but I want current players personal opinion on Fantasy as it stands now. I hear mixed things; from my old gaming group saying no one in their area play it anymore because they don't like it to local players at one of the stores I go to absolutely loving it.

I appreciate any info/opinions on Warhammer Fantasy as it stands now and look forward to that info/opinions.

[Chronowraith]

Personally, I really like 8th Edition Fantasy. It plays much smoother and faster and the dynamic terrain adds a unique element. So I'll cover briefly the biggest changes and then go over some of the common complaints and how I personally look at them.

Changes

Charges
All units charge 2d6 + their movement characteristic. If they do not reach their charge target then they move the result of the highest die.

Premeasuring
No more guess range weapons and template weapons (blast or flame) are placed first and then resolved.

Winds of Magic
Roll 2d6 every magic phase. The player whose turn it is gets that many power dice to cast and his opponent gets the highest die result in dispel dice.

Casting
Casters roll power dice as usual but add their casting level to the dice. So a Grey Seer rolling three power dice would have a final casting attempt of 3d6+4. Miscasts are generated on double 6's the same as irresistible force.

Close Combat
This changed dramatically in 8th edition. In previous editions you fought only with the front rank and whoever charged struck first in the first round of combat. Now, you always fight with at least two ranks of models and combat is always resolved in initiative order. Models in the 2nd rank only receive a single attack usually. In addition, casualties are taken front the back of the unit instead of the front ensuring that large unit will usually get their full attacks.

Horde Formations
Units now get bonuses when fighting in ranks at least 10 wide. Primarily they fight with an additional rank.

Steadfast
If a unit that loses combat still possess more ranks than the opposing unit they are counted as "Steadfast". This means the unit is effectively Stubborn and tests on their base leadership (or that of the general if in range of his inspiring presence).

Terrain
Most terrain has an affect on units nearby or passing through. Almost all of these are known when placing the terrain piece with the primary exception of Mysterious Woods which are rolled for the first time they are entered.

Unit Types
All units are classified as Infantry, Cavalry, Monstrous Infantry, Monstrous Cavalry, Monsters, War machines, or Characters (and I think warbeasts) now and each have a specified base size and other rules associated with them.

Monstrous Infantry
Units like trolls and ogres received a sizable bonus. They too fight in two ranks but the second rank can fight with up to 3 attacks. Also, due to their large size they receive a special stomp attack that occurs after both sides have fought (but still contributes to combat resolution.

Otherwise there are a number of other changes to war machines, skirmishers, and cavalry as well as new things like parry saves, channeling, etc.

So now the common complaints;

"8th Edition is too random"
It's not anymore random than any other tabletop wargame. At the end of the day, it's a game that relies on dice. What GW did was remove the senseless guesswork.

"I fail my charges all the time"
Charges used to simply be double your base movement. Without premeasuring you had to rely on your eye. Now you can crunch the numbers. With my skaven, I rarely charge unless I am within 12" (base move of 5 means I need around a 7 to charge on average). Result? I get the majority of my charges off. Probably far more than I ever did in 7th and previous editions.

"Magic is too overpowered"
Magic isn't any more overpowered now than it was in 7th edition and earlier. If anything the randomness of the Winds of Magic help negate that and makes relying on magic to win your games a little of a gamble. Also, with each of the old books that GW rewrites, the game becomes more balanced as uber-spells are removed, rewritten, or recosted.

"I don't like how GW is removing many of my favorite magic items from the army books"
To some extent I agree with this one. It's a shame to see many characterful items removed from the books. That being said, most of the items removed were filler that were rarely, if ever, taken. the expansion of the basic magic items in the main rulebook also made many of those items superfluous.

Have anymore questions? Just ask. I've played Fantasy since 2nd edition and 8th edition is definitely one of my favorite editions so far.

[Duke Vorian]

Thanks a lot for the detailed overview, I really appreciate it.

You really countered all the negative comments that I have heard and I like what you had to say.

It doesn't seem like a lot of armies have been re-done since the release of 8th Edition, what armies benefited from the changes made in 8th Edition and/or are at an advantage in Fantasy now?

[Chronowraith]

Thanks a lot for the detailed overview, I really appreciate it.

You really countered all the negative comments that I have heard and I like what you had to say.

It doesn't seem like a lot of armies have been re-done since the release of 8th Edition, what armies benefited from the changes made in 8th Edition and/or are at an advantage in Fantasy now?

Armies redone since 8th edition has dropped are limited to Orcs and Goblins, Tomb Kings, and Ogres unless I'm forgetting something.

Right now the best performing books are probably Vampire Counts, Warriors of Chaos, Skaven, and High Elves. Bretonnians, Wood Elves, and Beastmen take up the bottom slots.

Vampire Counts - Cheap spells with casting costs that consider the old method of casting spells means that they need minimal casters on the board to rule the roost. Add in a grave guard deathstar and the book is pretty mean. This is most likely why this army is being rewritten and rumored to be next on the release schedule.

Warriors of Chaos - With the best statline in the game for basic troops Warriors of Chaos have high weapon skill, high strength, great armor, and best of all - high initiative. This means they will strike first *most* of the time. Tzeentch tends to rule the roost these days since mark of Tzeentch on Warriors gives a 5+ parry save (ward save but with a few limitations). Also Warriors due well because in addition to fantastic warriors they also have cheap marauders available so they have the best of both worlds with nice elite infantry and cheap hordable infantry.

Skaven - Cheap infantry means skaven can horde clanrat units for an extra punch or keep deep ranks on slaves to quagmire enemy units and expose vulnerable flanks. Rat Ogres are dirt cheap monstrous infantry that pack a mean punch. Crazy magic and war machines also help, but 8th edition didn't do anything special for those really.

High Elves - Army wide Always Strikes First means high elves will... always strike first (surprising I know). Combine that with strong magic, spearmen that fight in even an extra rank as opposed to usual and all around decent units and you have a nice solid book.

I should point out that Dark Elves also perform very well but that's largely due to the highly undercosted Hydra.

[cerebros]

I should point out that Dark Elves also perform very well but that's largely due to Okkam's Mindrazor

fixed that for you.

Hydra's can be dealt with. Take 1 horde of Corsairs with Frenzy Banner or Witch Elves, add +1 Attack from the Cauldron and then mix in Mindrazor for S8 attacks for a world of pain

[Chronowraith]

It's a death star unit. Most books have at least one. Truthfully, that one is far less frightening then most I've seen.

one overly expensive unit + supporting unit + magic = deathstar It really doesn't matter what book you take either (short of wood elves).

Okkam's Mindrazor is available throughout many armies and, since it's base casting cost is 18+, can be a bit unreliable. Also, since most people still take a dispel scroll or other magic defenses, you have to deal with that as well. No one in their right mind will let you get this spell off when you most need it so it's just down to luck of the dice... which isn't a sound strategy.

[cerebros]

Overly expensive? It only takes a shade over 300 points to make either horde of Witch Elves or Corsairs.

Dark Elves do not have any restriction on the number of casting dice they can use plus they can use the Sacrificial Dagger to add a power die to the cast if they don't meet the casting value.

The majority of armies only have access to 1 dispel scroll type item which is typically burnt up before combat is joined in all the games I've seen.

[eldargal]

I have a lot of success with Dark Elves without hydras or okkams mindrazor, it is a good book,

[Lord Azaghul]

Thanks a lot for the detailed overview, I really appreciate it.

You really countered all the negative comments that I have heard and I like what you had to say.

It doesn't seem like a lot of armies have been re-done since the release of 8th Edition, what armies benefited from the changes made in 8th Edition and/or are at an advantage in Fantasy now?

Magic is king in 8th ed.

BS shooting has taken quite a hit - WM shooting has gotten a bit better.
CC is now about lots of dice.

Also, its not really the tactical game it was mid 7th ed.
Its much more of a beer and pretzels game atm - its all fun and entertaining - just don't except a solid tactical competition.

If you have the right mind set going into it - the game is still fun, but in no way balanced.

[eldargal]

It is still a tactical game, it just requires different tactics. It may be easier to play than 7th, but that is because 7th was an utter abomination which was more about shuffling units an 8th of an inch ot set off the perfect charge through the enemy army than it was abotu fighting actual battles. It is also far mroe balanced than 7th, where Dark Elves, Vampire Counts or WoC were basically auto-win against everyone else.

[Chronowraith]

Overly expensive? It only takes a shade over 300 points to make either horde of Witch Elves or Corsairs.

Dark Elves do not have any restriction on the number of casting dice they can use plus they can use the Sacrificial Dagger to add a power die to the cast if they don't meet the casting value.

The majority of armies only have access to 1 dispel scroll type item which is typically burnt up before combat is joined in all the games I've seen.

You are forgetting the support units that make the unit into the powerhosue you claim it is. In other words the cauldron and the sorceress.

Restriction on casting dice wasn't my point with the 18+ casting cost. My point was that at 18+ you will see the spell cast rarely because it will take 3-4 dice to have a reliable chance to cast the spell... and that's with a level 3 or 4 caster (which adds points).

Most players will hold their scroll dependent on the army they play against. I only burn my scrolls before close combat if I'm facing a ranged army or certain army builds that rely on Lore of Life or Death.

In general, the unit is still a death star. It's a single unit that you are using to try and break your opponent and it suffers from all of the same flaws as every other death star excepting of course that Witch Elves are far squishier to shooting attacks than most other death stars I've seen. It might be cheaper but that's because it is far less versatile than others and relies on more support units that could be dealt with individually.



I have a lot of success with Dark Elves without hydras or okkams mindrazor, it is a good book,

Never said it wasn't a good book. It does fine although it's starting to show it's age a little. Most competitive armies I see at tournaments rely on the same bag of tricks. Hell, I'd probably play Dark Elves myself if I didn't hate the DE Warrior sprue.




BS shooting has taken quite a hit - WM shooting has gotten a bit better.
CC is now about lots of dice.

Also, its not really the tactical game it was mid 7th ed.
Its much more of a beer and pretzels game atm - its all fun and entertaining - just don't except a solid tactical competition.

If you have the right mind set going into it - the game is still fun, but in no way balanced.

See, everyone complains that 8th edition is too magic heavy. In some ways I agree but people obviously have fleeting memories because magic in 7th edition was way more overpowered than it currently is in 8th edition. This is especially the case since they fixed poer stones.

As eldargal has pointed out, the game is still tactical, just in a different way. 8th edition emphasizes combat far more than previous editions and backs off of movement to some degree. Movement is still important though (far more important than say it's sister game of 40k).

GW just made a conscious decision that combat should be decided by combat and not entirely by movement. That's why the static bonuses remained the same from 7th to 8th and more peole can fight, meaning that the actual combat has more influence ont he outcome than the manuevering.

That being said, movement still carries a lot of weight. Flank charges while not the combat-enders they used to be, still highly favor the charger due to simple numbers. The attackers will have two ranks attacking and the defenders will only have a single rank attacking.

I like most of the changes overall. It's my opinion but I like that movement is still important and that combat is largely decided by actual fighting and not static combat resolution (and I even play an old school static combat res army). It's much more fun, fluid, and interesting than the 7th edition system.

As for competitive nature - GW has stated repeatedly that their games are not really intended for competition. That being said, 8th edition goes a long way to making Fantasy more competition friendly. It standardized unit types and the rules for each unit type (including base size), it closed a great number of loopholes, it made it so no matter if yuor amry is magic heavy, shooting heavy, melee heavy, or balanced that you will still be able to play a full game as long as you know your army, the rules, and have a basic understanding of the army you are facing.

[Lord Azaghul]

Restriction on casting dice wasn't my point with the 18+ casting cost. My point was that at 18+ you will see the spell cast rarely because it will take 3-4 dice to have a reliable chance to cast the spell... and that's with a level 3 or 4 caster (which adds points).


See, everyone complains that 8th edition is too magic heavy. In some ways I agree but people obviously have fleeting memories because magic in 7th edition was way more overpowered than it currently is in 8th edition. This is especially the case since they fixed poer stones.

As eldargal has pointed out, the game is still tactical, just in a different way. 8th edition emphasizes combat far more than previous editions and backs off of movement to some degree. Movement is still important though (far more important than say it's sister game of 40k).

GW just made a conscious decision that combat should be decided by combat and not entirely by movement. That's why the static bonuses remained the same from 7th to 8th and more peole can fight, meaning that the actual combat has more influence ont he outcome than the manuevering.

That being said, movement still carries a lot of weight.

I like most of the changes overall. It's my opinion but I like that movement is still important and that combat is largely decided by actual fighting and not static combat resolution (and I even play an old school static combat res army). It's much more fun, fluid, and interesting than the 7th edition system.
.

I will disagree on your statement about casting. 15+ spells are casted rather easily with less then average rolls from a lvl 3 or 4. Especially with DE - who don't have the dice limit (even w/o 6 dice is plenty imo).
4 Dice with a lvl 1, means a 15+ is going off. Common strategy is to burn through scrolls asap, next turn throw all you're dice at the unit killer spells. Miscast are easily mitigated, and most of the consequences aren't that bad, or even much of a draw back.

8th ed is more magic heavy because the spells are much more powerful and devastating - its no long a d6/2d6 S4 Magic Missle - spells are now unit destroyers. And are just fair to potent (IMO)

Movement really isn't too important in this ed (I'm comparing 7th ed). If you remember how to deploy from 7th, you're set for movement in 8th. The largest thing is MOST terrain no longer restricts movement. Initial set up is far more important then actual movement.

combat:- the magic phase has a stronger influence on deciding combat then the actually combat phase. Negative d6 toughness? Mind Razor? All of these things change you need to wound roll to a 2+.

8th ed: Its not about tactics, its about casting the most damaging/buffing spell you can. And hoping you opponents DD fail them. Magic strongly favors the caster, not the dispeller.

[Chronowraith]

I will disagree on your statement about casting. 15+ spells are casted rather easily with less then average rolls from a lvl 3 or 4. Especially with DE - who don't have the dice limit (even w/o 6 dice is plenty imo).
4 Dice with a lvl 1, means a 15+ is going off. Common strategy is to burn through scrolls asap, next turn throw all you're dice at the unit killer spells. Miscast are easily mitigated, and most of the consequences aren't that bad, or even much of a draw back.

8th ed is more magic heavy because the spells are much more powerful and devastating - its no long a d6/2d6 S4 Magic Missle - spells are now unit destroyers. And are just fair to potent (IMO)

Movement really isn't too important in this ed (I'm comparing 7th ed). If you remember how to deploy from 7th, you're set for movement in 8th. The largest thing is MOST terrain no longer restricts movement. Initial set up is far more important then actual movement.

combat:- the magic phase has a stronger influence on deciding combat then the actually combat phase. Negative d6 toughness? Mind Razor? All of these things change you need to wound roll to a 2+.

8th ed: Its not about tactics, its about casting the most damaging/buffing spell you can. And hoping you opponents DD fail them. Magic strongly favors the caster, not the dispeller.


I'm going to disagree with the last comment completely. I play Skaven and almost exclusively take ruin spells. I have one buff spell (Death Frenzy) and I manage to make it through the game without overpowering magic (and I usually don't take a grey seer). Magic certainly affects the game but many of the mind-blowing unit destroying spells were there in 7th edition as well (Infernal Gateway?).

Movement may not be as important as 7th, but it is still very important. Flank and rear charges can still be very devastating due to the imbalances they create in who can fight and who can't fight.

Terrain has a great impact on the game. Sure, not always from the movement perspective but having blotches of swamps that can cause casualties on your units (with no armor save) and forests & rivers that cause dangerous terrain checks is HUGE. Ever had to roll for a unit of 50 slaves trying to cross a river that always counts as dangerous terrain? It isn't fun, nor is it pretty.

4 dice on a level 1 does NOT mean a 15+ is going off. A Level 1 has roughly a 56% chance of getting off a spell requiring a 15 with 4 dice (and keep in mind the original discussion was for a spell requiring an 18+). That is far from guaranteed and still uses up an inordinate number of dice given that, on average, the caster will only have 7 or 8 dice.

The only time magic becomes imbalanced is when you are talking about level 4 casters casting older spells such as Infernal Gateway. So you have low casting cost combined with a huge bonus to cast. In my opinion this could be solved by a pretty easy fix. Level 1 and 2 casters only receive a +1 to cast/dispel and levels 3 and 4 receive a +2 (in addition to rewriting older books and/or FAQ'ing the spells).

[Lord Azaghul]

I'm going to disagree with the last comment completely. I play Skaven and almost exclusively take ruin spells. I have one buff spell (Death Frenzy) and I manage to make it through the game without overpowering magic (and I usually don't take a grey seer). Magic certainly affects the game but many of the mind-blowing unit destroying spells were there in 7th edition as well (Infernal Gateway?).


4 dice on a level 1 does NOT mean a 15+ is going off. A Level 1 has roughly a 56% chance of getting off a spell requiring a 15 with 4 dice (and keep in mind the original discussion was for a spell requiring an 18+). That is far from guaranteed and still uses up an inordinate number of dice given that, on average, the caster will only have 7 or 8 dice.

.

Um skaven are one of the reasons I don't play the game any more.
Perminately decreasing a foes toughness for an 8+ caster is just wrong.
You are correct, 4 dices does not guarantee a spell going off - however 56% odds on 4 dice is rather good. If we wanted to go for 18+ count - 5 Dice min. But probably 6. Add a +3 to that - and you only need to roll a 15...a 15 on 6 dice...wow. That means a roll consisting of 2's ,3's & 4's will easily meet or beat that number - and 5's or 6's you roll are just gravy.

Just look at how magic dice are generated - the higher the dice roll, the worse off the defender is, and the defender is the one who NEEDS hot dice to beat the caster!

7th vs 8th: If you have magic you can do the OPness, of super nasty magic! Even in 7th Infernal Gate Way required a very good roll (2 in fact) - and yes it IS over the top as a spell.
In 8th is almost easier to cast.

My main point is: if you have magic - great- if you don't or you have really expensive units - you're kinda screwed until you get a new book. 8th ed IS magic.