The "Law" of 9's.

[Skari]

Does your best army list fit in?

I am curious to see how different peoples armies fit into this army list building development system that my Dad created. He used to spend more time making lists than actually playing... literally, it would take 3 days for him to make a 1500pt list. Anyway; how does this work?

Divide total point value of army by 9. So for example in an 1850pt list you have nine 205 pt "sections" and a 5pt floater.

First Place 4 "sections" (820pts) into troops.

Then 1 "section" (205pts) in each of your Heavy, Fast, Elites and HQ sections.

This leaves 1 "section" that you may do what ever you want with. For example an Imperial Guard army might put it into Heavy Support.

IMPORTANT: This is a general guideline, not a strict rubric. It is aimed at balancing the list to deal with as much as possible while keeping it effective and spam-free.

Now, I had no idea what this was until finally my dad explained the system. Then I went and counted out my competitive DE army into it and found that I was almost spot on! I was very successful with the list that fit in to the "law" and have had trouble moving away from it ever since. I find it is a nice tool to keep things interesting while keeping focused on what matters, good number of troops, some fast units, firesupport and elite units. Of course keeping the HQ cheap so as to not sink too many pts into it.

Anyway. I challenge all of you to try it out! And let me know what you think.

Cheers!

[thecactusman17]

This sounds about right. At 1850, 205 is about the amount you pay for 10 models, appropriate anti tank upgrades and squad leader powers, and a transport. Been within about 10-15 points of that for every army I've played.

[Xas]

sounds like a nice, easy way to remember how to balance an army list if you arent that good with maths.

however it falls short the moment you get too low. by then I would suggest that you may move any 1/9 that isnt a troop one around if you cant buy a propper unit with it.


I think it would be a good guidance for anyone up to expert level to follow, as propper list building outside that template is very hit and miss (and the reason I think most net-lists are awfull).

[AbusePuppy]

That will work reasonably well for some armies, like IG and BA, but very poorly for others, especially ones that depend heavily on specific slots to do a job (like DE and Nids.)

Having only three allocations to troops and two free spots would work better, I think. But even then, it's only a very, very vague system for determining what you're getting- some armies can get a lot of troops for a small number of points, others have to invest heavily.

[CrimsonTurkey]

My Nid list is made of the following

HQ - 235
Hive Tyrant - 235
2x Scything Talons, Wings, Hive Commander

Elites - 437
10 Ymgarls - 230
9 Ymgarls - 207

Troops - 325
5 Warriors - 175
Scything Talons, Deathspitters
25 Hormagaunts - 150

Doesn't fit the rule of 9 very well. The HQ is 2.11 units, Elites are 3.93, and troops are only 2.92. This list tends to do pretty damn well though. I usually reserve everything and outflank the gaunts. The warriors walk on later and provide supporting fire and claim a backfield objective. Hive tyrant is mostly just there for hive commander and bashing the occasional hard target. I do pretty damn well with this one.

[blackarmchair]

Yeah, it's a good rule but only really works with newer codecies that have worthwhile troops and worthwhile units in (almost) every slot. The examples you gave of DE and IG are great. Try doing this with an older codex and you'll be hard pressed to spend that much on troops (820pts of fire warriors = fail) or finding useful stuff in every slot.

Still an overall good idea, just needs some tweaking for certain books. You should call it the "Principle of 9's" (I know, I know less catchy).

[DarkLink]

Doesn't work at all for Grey Knights. Most lists will spend 300+ points in HQ, ~400pts in Heavy and almost everything else in Troops. I don't see that many people taking Interceptors (even though they're awesome) or storm ravens, and the best elite units can be taken as troops with the right HQ.

[Skari]

Yes, some armies dont fit in "exactly" but is seems to be a good guideline for varied lists.

If your army does not regularly fit in, what would you do to make it fit? I challenge you to come up with a list that does fir the law.
I will try to post a few lists from different armes using the law to spice it up and serve as food for thought.
:D

[Rapture]

I I took half of my Tau army as troops my best bet for victory would be that my opponent was laughing so hard that he wasn't able to play...

[Skari]

Ok, so. As I said I would here is the first one that I have made, and yes , it is with Tau 1850pts:

HQ-
Shas'el(Missilepod, Plasma, Targeting Array, HW Miltitracker) - 97pts

Shas'el(Missilepod, Plasma, Targeting Array, HW Miltitracker) - 97pts

Elites/
3 Crisis Suits(3xmissilepod, 3xplasma,3xmulti-tracker) - 186pts

Troops/
11 FW/s with Shasui - 120pts
Devilfish(Disrupt Pod, Multitracker)- 95pts

11 FW/s with Shasui - 120pts
Devilfish(Disrupt Pod, Multitracker)- 95pts

10 FW/s - 100pts
Devilfish(Disrupt Pod, Multitracker)- 95pts

16 Kroot, one upgraded to a shaper - 133pts

Fast Attack:
8 Pathfinders w/Shas'ui - 106pts
Devilfish as above - 95pts

Heavy Support:
2 Broadsides w/ advanced stabilization systems(team leader with blacksun filter&targetlock) - 173pts
2 Broadsides w/ advances stabilization systems (team leader with blacksun filter and target lock)- 173pts
Hammerhead(Railgun, Disruptpods,BurstCannon,Multitracker)-165pts

So:
HQ - 194/205
Elites - 186/205
Troops - 758/820
Fast- 201/205
Heavy- 511/410 (all floaters here)

So, here is the first example. It is not exactly within the parameters, hence why this is just a guideline but it does have a good feel to it. With some more playtesting the tweaking of the gear and points would be adjusted. (it would be easy to drop a devilfish from a FW squad so that they could use the pathfinder devilfish, then those points could go into more elite crisis suits) also the weapon systems are variable, I used the most expensive lay out, but a TL missle pod system on the suits would allow for more points to be spent in other places, like more suits. But the groundwork is there. As for the firewarriors and kroot, they are not the "best" units, but with a bit of tweaking you could easily have 2 units of 10 kroot and smaller firewarrior squads, or have them with the carbines so that they can remain mobile and at 18" away from the enemy.

Just thoughts.

Cheers!

[MMEagle]

I don't realy like this method. I would say though about 4/9 of an army (juster under half round about) to a 1/2 should be Troops. A small section (of up to 175 pts in usual lists) should be HQ (thats 1/10 of a 1750 list). Depending on the route/theme i am taking on my army HS, Elites, and FA would have different amounts of room.

[DarkLink]

If your army does not regularly fit in, what would you do to make it fit? I challenge you to come up with a list that does fir the law.

Why? I take the units I want to take, not what units meet some arbitrary quota.


Now, MSU purifier spam actually happens to fit the law kinda well. A 5-6 Purifier unit with a razorback is about 200pts, or the 1/9 you're talking about. A venerable psyrifle dread is also pretty close, but most people just take heavy dreads.

But aside from that, you pretty much have to intentionally take crappy units to make it work. Fully upgraded GK units are way too expensive to fit, and since GK armies are short on units typically that means taking lots of troops. Which means taking lots of HQs to unlock some of those awesome elite units as troops so you get the best of both worlds. And since the FA slot only has Interceptors (which are amazing but you rarely see them) and Storm Ravens (which aren't all that great, and you only see them in lists built around them), you're ignoring those parts. And since you get psyrifle dreads in the heavy section, that's 400pts in basically every GK list ever written.

[Skari]

Nice to hear that purifier spam fits in. Any takers on a list?
Being able to take a crappy unit and make it work is the signature of a good general

[blackarmchair]

I don't think anyone would argue that making a crappy unit work takes strong generalship. I also don't think anyone is arguing that your principle is a bad one (and if anyone is I certainly am not).

What I am trying to say is that this idea is FAR from being a "law". I can't imagine taking 205pts of Fast Attack with a Chaos Space Marine army (over-costed jump marines/bikes, lol spawn?), many other books have 0-1 viable choices in various slots (tau, CSM, eldar fast attack all spring to mind) and if those limited choices don't work well with the rest of the army then those 200+ points are a waste. Again, it would be a showing of great generalship to make a "red herring" unit work with an otherwise coherent army; but if we agree (as you stated) that the goal of this system is to make "successful" and "focused" lists then clearly incorporating "red herring" units in this way is counter-productive.

Also, as previously stated, not all books have troops worth investing points into. I know Tau was raised and - no offense - that list you built was pretty bad for the very reason we all said it would be: too many Fire Warriors and Kroot. You would have been better served with more suits and pathfinders.

I think your rubric works really well for 5th edition books because they have a) generally good troops and b) a tendency for multiple good choices in every slot.

It's a nice idea though.

[DarkLink]

Right, I'm just saying that Grey Knights operate differently enough from, well, pretty much any other army in the game that the normal rules you might apply to other armies. It's more than that the points just don't add up well, but that the way in which the codex and its units are structured and how they support each other doesnt really mesh.

About the closest you could probably get is something like this:
Crowe (150)
Inquisitor w/ grenades (~90)

10 Deathcult Assassins (150)

4x 6 Purifiers in Razorbacks (900)

Storm Raven (205)

3x Psyrifle Dreads (405)

Total: ~1900

I just threw that together so I'm not sure the exact point totals are.

Edit: added points.

[Skari]

I like the crowe list. Cool.

As for the point totals, you dont HAVE to use all 205pts... if you use 255 in one place use 155 in another. For example with CSM that unit of raptors or bikes, the whole point would be to take something fast.

[thecactusman17]

I like the crowe list. Cool.

As for the point totals, you dont HAVE to use all 205pts... if you use 255 in one place use 155 in another. For example with CSM that unit of raptors or bikes, the whole point would be to take something fast.

This is one of the strengths of the Dark Eldar codex. A lot of its troop and elite units are optimized to be about 15-25 points below the nearest benchmark (MSU Warriors in a Venom with upgrades is 125-135, 10 in a raider is 175-185). So even with lots of unit upgrades, you still come in with more than enough optimized units to be a serious presence on the board while still adding in some big nasties from your HQ, Fast attack, and Heavy Support sections, or swap in some specialized extra-costly units to perform specific tasks (like Haywire wyches).

At 2000, with just the standard troop units and a few staples, we get something like:

HQ
Duke Sliscus

Elites (390)
5 Trueborn in a venom with blasters and splinter cannon, Dual cannons
5 Trueborn in a venom with blasters and splinter cannon, Dual cannons


Troops (1081)
9 warriors with a blaster in a raider w/ nightshields, flickerfield

5 warriors in a venom with blaster and dual cannons and nightshields
5 warriors in a venom with blaster and dual cannons and nightshields
5 warriors in a venom with blaster and dual cannons and nightshields

Wyches w/ Haywire, Agonizer, Shardnets x2 in raider w/ nightshields
Wyches w/ Haywire, Agonizer, Shardnets x2 in raider w/ nightshields

Heavy (375)
Ravager w/ Flickerfield, Nightshields
Ravager w/ Flickerfield, Nightshields
Ravager w/ Flickerfield, Nightshields

Total: 1996 points

That's about 25 darklight weapons, a terrifying number of poisoned shots, and two melee squads which will lock things down and slowly whittle away at big nasties like Grey Knight dreads, thunderwolves, and paladins while the rest of the army scours the board clean. Note that the troop units and ravagers have about 150 points of various upgrades decked onto them, enough to buy another unit or two if you wanted to strip them down.

[DarkLink]

Just for reference, here's a list I took to a local tournament, Contest of Champions, at 2500pts:

Driago (275)
Xenos Inquisitor, Power Armor, Rad/Psykotroke Grenades, 3 Skulls, Hammerhand and Force Weapon (~105)

Venerable Psyrifle Dreadnought (195, only venerable due to stupid comp system)
6 Purifiers, 2 Psycannons, 3 Halberds, Daemonhammer, Razorback (225)
5 Acolytes, 3 Meltaguns, Razorback (100)

10 Paladins, 4 Psycannons, Banner, Stave, 5 Master Crafted weapons (700)
10 GKSS, 2 Psycannons, MC Hammer, Psybolts Razorback (305)

10 Interceptors, 2 Psycannons, MC Hammer, Psybolts (315)

2 Psyrifle Dreads (270)


1/9th is 277 points. I have 380 in HQ, 520 in Elites, 1005 in Troops, 315 in FA and 270 in HS.

That works out to 1.5 in HQ, 2 in Elites, 3 in Troops, 1 in FA and 1 in HS, roughly.


The list has much less emphasis on troops for two reasons. 1) Paladins with Driago and an Inquisitor are a nightmare to kill. In my first game it took my entire opponent's army to kill them, and they were basically my only casualties as he couldn't hurt anything else. 2) The Grand Strategy lets other stuff score.

As a result, I don't have to invest in much more than the minimum in Troops, and it works out fine. And thanks to the wide variety of competitive units in the GK codex, there's no problem taking lots of different types of units regardless of how your points are distributed.




I'll also add that the crowe list I posted isn't actually that great a list, it's just a list I made to try and meet the standards set. It would be a stronger list if you were to deviate from the standards a fair bit. At the least, you'd want more Purifiers than that list has, since a mere 4x6 scoring Marines probably won't cut it.

[Bean]

Does your best army list fit in?

I am curious to see how different peoples armies fit into this army list building development system that my Dad created. He used to spend more time making lists than actually playing... literally, it would take 3 days for him to make a 1500pt list. Anyway; how does this work?

Divide total point value of army by 9. So for example in an 1850pt list you have nine 205 pt "sections" and a 5pt floater.

First Place 4 "sections" (820pts) into troops.

Then 1 "section" (205pts) in each of your Heavy, Fast, Elites and HQ sections.

This leaves 1 "section" that you may do what ever you want with. For example an Imperial Guard army might put it into Heavy Support.

IMPORTANT: This is a general guideline, not a strict rubric. It is aimed at balancing the list to deal with as much as possible while keeping it effective and spam-free.

Now, I had no idea what this was until finally my dad explained the system. Then I went and counted out my competitive DE army into it and found that I was almost spot on! I was very successful with the list that fit in to the "law" and have had trouble moving away from it ever since. I find it is a nice tool to keep things interesting while keeping focused on what matters, good number of troops, some fast units, firesupport and elite units. Of course keeping the HQ cheap so as to not sink too many pts into it.

Anyway. I challenge all of you to try it out! And let me know what you think.

Cheers!


Nope. I don't play elites or fast attack in most of my armies.

This works fine for some armies, quite poorly for others. It really depends on the internal balance of the army in question. Plus, of course, you don't always get choices that fit neatly into 205 points (or, since I usually play at 1500, 165 points), so even with armies for which it is close, some fudging will routinely be required.

[Maelstorm]

- Deleted by the poster...

[thecactusman17]

Bean, it's worth noting that Comp systems sometimes compel players to take FA and Elite slots in armies that they might not otherwise take. Darkwynn's tournament scene up in Sacramento, for example, has some of the most ridiculous comp rules I've ever heard.

[Skari]

Right. So as promised here is a CSM list:
HQ/
Deamon Prince, Wings, Slaanesh, Doombolt - 145pts
Elites/
Termicide Squad- 3 with combi weapons (take your pick), 1 powerfist - 115

Termicide Squad- 3 with combi weapons (take your pick), 1 powerfist - 115
Troops/
10 Plague Marines with 2 MG, PF, in rhino - 325
10 CSM, 2 PG IoCG, Rhino - 225
10 CSM, 2 MG IoCG, Rhino - 215
10 Lesser Deamons
Fast Attack/
3 Bikes 2 MG - 119pts
Heavy/
3 x 2Oblits - 450pts

There is tonnes of room to optimize the list. And it still has some of the "competitive" choices that CSM love, plague marines, oblits, termicides.
On another note, the mind can be as restricting as any arbitrary template.

[AsgeirArnald]

Okay here's my current tournament list for CSM.

HQ
Terminator Lord- Mark of Khorne, Daemon Weapon, Combi Melta: 160
Daemon Prince- Wings, Warptime: 155
Summoned Greater Daemon- 100

TROOPS
10 Khorne Berzerkers- Skull Champ w/ Powerfist & Meltabombs, Rhino w/ Extra Armor: 305
10 Khorne Berzerkers- Skull Champ w/ Powerfist & Meltabombs, Rhino w/ Extra Armor: 305
10 Chaos Space Marines- Aspiring Champ w/ Meltabombs, Flamer, Missile Launcher, Icon of Chaos Glory: 195

ELITES
4 Terminators- Icon of Khorne, 4x Champion, 4x Lightning Claw Pairs: 230
Dreadnought- Additional DCCW, Extra Armor: 115
Dreadnought- TL Autocannon, Extra Armor: 125

HEAVY SUPPORT
Land Raider- Extra Armor: 235
3 Obliterators- 225

TOTAL POINTS- 2150

1/9 being 238.8 points, lets call it 239. Also there is 11 units in this list so it already doesn't fit. Ill break it down anyways.

HQ- 415/239
TROOP- 805/956
ELITES- 470/478
HEAVY SUPPORT- 460/239
FAST ATTACK- 0/239
This is putting the slot for whatever into Elites. Once again, no point in taking any of the fast attack choices for CSM so lets pretend fast attack doesnt exist. So to sort of make this work at 9 units, drop summoned greater daemon and the daemon prince, and drop the land raider, none of which I would ever actually do other than dropping the summoned daemon. Add 10 CSMs for 150 then it breaks down like this.

HQ- 160/239
TROOP-955/956
ELITES- 470/478
HEAVY SUPPORT-225/239

So making my list work with the models I have, and playing things that I actually want to play, plus ignoring fast attack completely drops my point total down to 1800. Tourneys at my store are ususally 2000 or 2150, so it doesn't work for me. I have other stuff I COULD use and totally make it work, but I don"t want to seeing as how I love my list and I do very well with it for the most part. I like the idea of the 1/9, but like others have said, it works better for 5th ed armies with good choices in each slot. Just play what you like.

[Skari]

Cool thanks all for your comments. I talk about it in more detail on my blog. You can copy paste the link in my sig.

As for that, interesting that in 6th edition percentages might be back?