c'tan and wraiths combination

[Phearon]

If I understand (maybe I dont) a wraith with whip coils is in base contact with an enemy that is also in base contact with a C'tan that has times arrow. The enemy takes the initiative test on the modified initiative. Am I right or wrong?

[The Twilight Fade]

I'm probably not much help without a rulebook to quote from but I believe that characteristic tests are made on unmodified values, I may be wrong as I don't think this has ever come up in any of my games before

[Denied]

In this type situation the test is made on the unmodified initiative value. It's the same as the GK Halberds. The halberds give you +2 initiative, but this doesn't count when you make initiative tests against something like JotWL, instead you test at initiative 4.

[Phearon]

i guess that may be the case but reading into the fluff of the whip coils makes me think that its not a weapon that someone is wielding but the wraith that are holding the enemy down .

[Tynskel]

hmmm. You may want to double check this. The whip coil might not be 'changing' the characteristic, ie not modifying. Instead it is replacing your characteristic with Initiative 1.

For example, this is a similar argument with the Stubborn and the Psychic Choir attack in the psyker battle squad in IG. They change the Ld Characteristic to a new value, and that new value is not subject of Stubborn.

[Xenith]

Doesnt the whip coul have the caveat that says something like "counts as I 1 for all purposes"?

I thought about this combo a while ago and seemed to think it would work.

[thecactusman17]

Whip coils cause any enemies nearby to "count their initiative as 1, regardless of their actual initiative value."

This could be a nasty assassination move against a number of high powered characters and models. Hit a Wraithlord or an MC, or hit Draigo or any number of special characters, and watch them disappear from the board before either side gets to swing.

[talos]

Yep, it's initiative 1 for all purposes. Coils and Time Arrow are a nasty combo.

[Rapture]

Agreed. Beyond nasty. An 83% chance to remove any model without any form of defense just because you charged with two units? Beyond beyond nasty. Know what else is beyond beyond nasty? Dreadknights shunting as their scout move. Oh wait...

[talos]

I don't see any resemblance between the rules or the situation, except that you don't like both. Unless you work for the GW faq team, that combo will probably survive the faq...

[thecactusman17]

I don't see the relation between this and shunt. Shunt was simply changed to indicate that shunting cannot be used in the scout move, not that the model couldn't shunt or couldn't scout with the teleporter (which should STILL get a well-positioned model into a turn 1 assault).

Note that the Necron FAQ is going to need actual errata to at least one unit to prevent the Scarab Conga.

In the case of the Time's Arrow trick, I don't think we will see the same worry. This is a cool, if vicious, combo that takes careful positioning and timing to make happen mid-game. A player who can pull this off against the most powerful models in the opponent's army is either very lucky or their opponent is very foolish, and likely a mixture of both.

[Rapture]

Point is that things that would allow for severe advantages by bypassing rules or standards of play generally get FAQed out. Is it possible that this is an example of a legitimately intended rules unicorn? Maybe, but unlikely.

[Tynskel]

Modifying Initiative has been used by other codexes before. The current precedent is that rules that 'replace' your stat are used in initiative tests.

example:

Lash Whips + Acid Blood. The lash whip replaces your stat with I1. Acid Blood then forces you to test against I1.
Whereas the Halberd adds +2 to initiative, clearly modifying your characteristic. Fluff wise, which is how GW makes their rules, anyhow, this is consistent. Lash whips physically bind you, preventing you from moving. The halberd's range is what grants the initiative bonus, and in the case of acid blood doesn't allow you to dodge the spray.

Another example is the psychic choir attack that replaces Ld 2, and you are stubborn-- in this case, you are stubborn with Ld 2.

[MaxKool]

And Ill remind you TY, that other codex while gives us some guide to go on... Are not in any way consistant enuf to make an official ruling on.

Hell the old necron codex for example... Pariahs leadership bubble was faqd to NOT work on orks with the mob rule.

As ive told you before, Rulings with similar rules in other codexes have been handled erraticly by GW and unfortunatly can only be a guide.... for every example there is one ruled out in left feild...

I think they could faq it either way my self, Im not gonna try it on anyone till a FAQ comes out myself...

[thecactusman17]

And Ill remind you TY, that other codex while gives us some guide to go on... Are not in any way consistant enuf to make an official ruling on.

Dude, stop.

It IS worth noting that sometimes GW is all over the place at times when making these decisions. Space Wolf Thunder Cav, for example, have a replaced Toughness value instead of a modified one, while their Strength is only "modified" while using the exact same reasoning.

I'll simply offer the quoted rule again: "Count their initiative as one regardless of their actual initiative value." This could actually be translated a number of ways: either they have an "actual" initiative value to roll against, or any rolls for initiative are against I1 so long as the whips are in contact and the model "counts their initiative as one." I think that to best represent the actions described, it would make the most sense to suggest that the models are bound in place and unable to move, so rolling vs. I1 makes the most sense from a lore standpoint.

Again, this is a tactic that will rarely see light vs. the vast majority of competent players, but could still be a nasty trick vs. monstrous creatures and hidden powerfists, force weapons and agonizers.

[Tynskel]

By the way, who's TY?

And your example is entirely inconsistent. Mob rule is a special rule that specifically makes mobs fearless when large enough. Remember, the pariah rule essentially has no effect on units that are fearless.

[MaxKool]

And u keep quoting other books and I'll keep telling you not to.

Gw has stated themselves what is applicable to one codex and FAQ is not nessesarilly applicable to another.
It's only a guide.

Without a FAQ there is a rule that says I always take tests on unmodifed values. But the lash coils has conflicting wording. The correct action is to talk it out with your opponent and wait for a FAQ for the relevant army book. Not to base your idea of official from other army books.

I think it can go either way so realy, it's another wait for the FAQ rule eh....
Just like another one I can think of.

[Tynskel]

And u keep quoting other books and I'll keep telling you not to.

Gw has stated themselves what is applicable to one codex and FAQ is not nessesarilly applicable to another.
It's only a guide.

Without a FAQ there is a rule that says I always take tests on unmodifed values. But the lash coils has conflicting wording. The correct action is to talk it out with your opponent and wait for a FAQ for the relevant army book. Not to base your idea of official from other army books.

I think it can go either way so realy, it's another wait for the FAQ rule eh....
Just like another one I can think of.

I am telling you are miss reading that. You are not taking the test on a modified value. The whip coil replaces you I with a different value, just as lash whips, or the psyker death squad, or the thunder hammer of Thor in the space wolves. All of them replace your statline with a new value.

[MaxKool]

Actualy forget it, don't reply I dont want to get into this one with u... After poKing around online about this topic and similar ones it has been going on for a long time and I find no clear answer around. So I'll just say


Who knows lol......

[Tynskel]

No, the answers are quite clear on this one. Rules that replace stats are the new characteristic, rules that add/subtract stats are temporary situational bonuses.