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Lanparth
09-12-2009, 01:19 PM
To celebrate Gav's latest entry on his blog regarding this, I'd like to just ask people simply what was the impact of Gav Thrope's Chaos Codex in your region, or with the players?

I'm a former Chaos player, I still have my army but over the last 18 months I just couldn't continue to stomach Gav's book. I won almost every game, its not a matter of power, its a matter of *boredom*. It was a boring book and ect ect. I don't need to whine over it.

However, what I did notice is no one, and I literally mean no one out of the regions I play in, continue to serve the dark god's actively with Chaos Space Marines. I see a few Daemons every now and then, but Marines? They are an endangered species.

So, what did you guys notice? Are there less Chaos players than before where you live? Did they quit? Did they change hobbies? Did more people pick up the codex and run with it? I'm just curious if everyone else is like where I play, or if its different.

Garou24
09-12-2009, 01:32 PM
I picked up the Chaos Codex a little over a year ago and I love it. Yes it has some weak points, but it does what I need it to do. Allow me to create a custom and creative Chaos army. The Cult troops and different icons of Chaos allow for greater flexablity in my different army lists. I also really enjoy the modeling opportunities that the chaos codex offers. Since picking it up I have collected over 14,000 points worth of Chaos and see no end in sight.

Schnitzel
09-12-2009, 01:54 PM
I picked up the Chaos Codex a little over a year ago and I love it. Yes it has some weak points, but it does what I need it to do. Allow me to create a custom and creative Chaos army. The Cult troops and different icons of Chaos allow for greater flexablity in my different army lists. I also really enjoy the modeling opportunities that the chaos codex offers. Since picking it up I have collected over 14,000 points worth of Chaos and see no end in sight.

I'm in the same boat as you. This codex drove me to create my own renegade warband which I find much more amusing than any of the legions. My primary gripe is recently converted renegades being stuck with ancient heresy era gear.
I'll admit the codex does have its weak points, but thats primarily if you're a competitive player. I have enough competitive things in my life to deal with, WH40K for me is a story driven hobby. It sucks to loose to power-gamer lists, but you gotta take it in stride. I play with lists that are fun to me and avoid the power gamers out there.

Lord Anubis
09-12-2009, 03:42 PM
Hmmmm.

I would say that Mr. Thorpe has very well-spoken, solid reasons for what he did with Codex:CSM. I even agree with a lot of his reasons. The previous Codex was very rules-heavy, and very daunting to even experienced players. Heck, I've been a Chaos player since I started in the game ten years ago and it took months to master that book.

However, that being said, while I agree something needed to be done, I don't think it was done that well. Rather poorly, in fact.

Codex:CSM became the first victim of the "simplify things" edict, and as such it was made an example of. Ironically, Chaos went from being one of the most flexible, mutable army lists to the most rigid one. To add insult to injury, every Codex since has offered special characters that let you restructure your army or play with different rules than another lit drawn from the same Codex. Orks. Marines. Guard. Every one gives you more options than Codex:CSM.

One of the first responders on Mr. Thorpe's blog nailed it when he pointed out there's something very wrong when an Imperial Guard Commander (heck, a platoon commander) has more options than a Demon Prince sworn to a major Chaos power.

I'd also disagree with his rationale on demons for two reasons. One is that it doesn't hold. People can take assassins, Sisters of Battle, and even (Inquisitorial) storm troopers with their Space Marine armies. So saying "this is why we took demons out" is a bit like saying we broke your knees because it's not fair you can walk when nobody else can. It would be a semi-acceptable rationale if the Demons codex had allowed for allied rules, but honestly I feel that book makes a bigger muddle of Chaos than this one did.

Secondly is that they didn't take demons out of Codex:CSM. They created this vague "lesser demon" which forces people to use proxies or use constant "counts as" models. "Yes they look like fierce bloodletters of Khorne, but they're actually just... well, muppets, pretty much." It's annoying to see a company that insists on only using proper models for proper units, while their developers create troop and HQ units which are just giant holes in that mindset.

And that's my thoughts on the matter.

...man that felt good to get that off my chest. I've been biting my tongue for two years now... ;)

Chumbalaya
09-12-2009, 04:01 PM
People still play Chaos locally, but it's always the same soulless powerbuild that's the only thing Chaos has going for it.

Terrible Codex, it's a real shame what he did to Chaos.

mountaincycle661
09-12-2009, 04:54 PM
Im not so sure i see what all the fuss is about. Everyone's *****ing and crying out for Gav's head on a plate. Why? The chaos marines codex is still fun to play, in my opinion.

Ok, its true: the most recent C:CSM has been really "dumbed down". Alot of the weird off-the-wall and over the top options have gone the way of the dodo. But really, even as an experienced Chaos player, that codex was freakin ridiculous to wrap your head around. If you take this guy, then that happens, with this wargear, against those units, cant take this if youve got those...blah blah BLAH.

Ive been playing thousand sons ever since the last codex. Now, this is a bit of a weird exception to the rule because thousand sons have ALWAYS SUCKED. But in the last codex, i couldnt take dedicated assault troops like raptors. I couldnt take anti-tank monsters like obliterators. I couldnt really make a well-oiled killing machine army list. With the new codex, I can take all those units and more to supplement my core units of thousand sons. This blows the doors wide open for modelling and conversion possibilites. And before you go and cry "OH GAAHD, IT DOESNT FOLLOW THE FLUFF! WHAT ARE YOU DOING?!!", shut your trap and think. The 40K universe has an explaination for just about everything. Thousand sons hired mercenaries, Alpha legion brokered a deal/alliance with berserkers, etc.

Its true that i lament the loss of my 2-wound thousand sons. Honestly, if theres anyone out there who feels gyped and pissed off about getting $hitty cult troops, its me. Thousand sons are TERRIBLE for their points costs. But i still love 'em because they're just so god damn cool looking and the story is great.

But, i might be getting a tad bit off topic here. Around my area, after everyone stopped *****ing about the "dumbed down" codex, and people picked up thier modeling knives and army builders, Chaos Marines really exploded in popularity. I enjoy the new codex because it allows me to take what i want, how i want and get on with the game. I would like to see some more complexity brought back into the codex, sure. But im not going to stop playing Chaos because I cant customize every little god damn option.

C'mon, the codex isnt really THAT bad. ;)

Drunkencorgimaster
09-12-2009, 10:11 PM
I am definately missing something too. I do not see the Codex as all that bad, but I also did not see it as all that necessary. It seems to me like it was cranked out quickly as a cheap way than to generate some much needed revenue while GW stock was in toilet.

I have to suspect that all the complaining is unfortunately feeding directly into Nottingham's plans to quickly run-off yet another semi-repetitive Codex. I predict some stupid $35 "Chaos Legions" book which will add little more than fluff-nods to the larger legions to satisfy all the people who think the current Codex bows too far towards renegade chapters. This Legions Codex will of course allow some tiny advantages to certain Legions if they give up particular options. Having recently built a sweet Night Lords Vindicator, I have little doubt that the sons of Kurze will be banned from using it in favor of getting to deploy one more squad of those sucky, top-heavy, tip-over-and-chip raptors. Gee, I can't wait.

silashand
09-12-2009, 10:45 PM
To celebrate Gav's latest entry on his blog regarding this, I'd like to just ask people simply what was the impact of Gav Thrope's Chaos Codex in your region, or with the players?

There are few chaos players left here. Where we used to have as many as there were Marine players, now there is only one individual who actively continues to play chaos marines. I know I stopped both my CSM armies (TS and AL). I did so because I don't believe in "counts as" at all. My cultist models are cultists. They are not daemons, they don't look like daemons, they have never been daemons. Same with marks vs icons. Sorry, a plague terminator is not the same as one that sorta smells bad and carries a dirty pair of underpants on a stick. JMO though...

Majorcrash
09-12-2009, 10:57 PM
Amazing to me is since I started playing back in the RT days (yes I'm that old) Chaos players have b*itched that there army isnt powerful enough. The last codex was stupidly over the top. All thats happened is the CSM have been brought into line with SM. Who by the way are supposed to be the same. Yes there thousands of years old and corrupted. And You still get daemons. Just not the uber powerful ones. :(. CSM codex has a huge amount of options and since GW has gone the special character way now, after decades of "with opponents permission only" CSM codex boasts some of the most powerful in the game. Chaos is stilled played as frequently as SM in my area. and is one of the harder amries to fight since they do have some many choices. But if you have to play an army with individuals who can fight entire companys alone, never fear Spacewolves are here. Which by the way remind me alot of 2nd ed CSM.:D Hey at least you CSM player arnt playing necrons. An army that hasnt been updated since 3rd ed :mad:

warpcrafter
09-12-2009, 11:15 PM
In 4th edition, I got in the habit of using a mixture of Chaos Space Marines, the appropriate Daemons and Mutants from the Eye of Terror book. All this variety didn't help my chances of winning battles, and yes I agree that all the options did make it somewhat difficult to orchestrate the army efficiently. However, I felt that I was using a proper chaos army, and my enthusiasm for the game was at an all-time high. Then they put out the Gawdawful crap that is fifth edition rules and their retarded trainwreck of a Chaos Space Marines codex and now I play Orks.

What I want is a massive tome called Codex: Chaos. Traitor Legions, POST-HERESY Renegades, Daemons of all types, (Everything from Codex Daemons, but with Daemon Princes as HQ) Traitor Guardsmen, Mutants, Plague Zombies and Dark Mechanicus. I don't care if it's so big that I have to bring along a plinth to set it on next to the gaming table. I liked all the ridiculous options and the specializations of the Legions.

Gav Thorpe, Alessio Cavatorre and all the rest of the GW rules-monkeys needs to have a stern talking-to, preferably with an Inquisitor and staff hovering nearby.:mad:

Lanparth
09-12-2009, 11:28 PM
There are some people who like the current book. This thread was not meant to discuss how good/**** the book is, even if my opinion strongly falls towards ****.

Its to discuss how its affected the game, and how it has affected the number of players who play the faction. Though you guys can go OT if you want, I dun mind. I always love hearing how trash the book is ;)

brother drakist
09-13-2009, 07:01 AM
A friend of mine who had a beautiful Khorne army pretty much stopped playing. I understand being unhappy with the changes but I think it was a bit dramatic as well. Personally I understand the point of players who ran the Daemonbomb or cultist heavy army. Those armies pretty much became obsolete which is tough to swallow given the time and $$ people put into the game.

Powerslave
09-13-2009, 08:23 AM
In my area, I saw a rise in numbers of Black Legion and Red Corsairs armies (which made me hate the Black Legion even more). I also saw a lot of "one-god dedicated" armies disappear from the scene (except for Death Guard which still is a strong choice and remains with quite a cult following). Unfortunately, almost everyone who used to play Alpha Legion or Iron Warriors vanished, or came back with Plague Marine - Lash Prince - Obliterator spam armies.

This codex did bring some new ways for interpretation, but at the same time it paved the road to absolute cheese lists which are so generic, universal and un-themed.

As an example, I am the only player who actually still plays Iron Warriors in my area (that means Vindicators, Obliterators, a Lord, one unidivided Prince, one Berzerkers squad, and regular Chaos Marines). Oh... and I keep my converted Chaos basilisk at home most of the time now-a-days.

I still try to crusade the whole "themed" argument, but so many players just want to go out there and play with power lists with complete disregard for fluff.

I think the old codex did impose restrictions - but a lot of those restrictions were good - they kept armies more unique and gave the feel that a Chaos army could actually be a sub-list of one of 9 Chaotic Legions. We have to keep in mind that sometimes restrictions are good and are needed, otherwise we would have utter Chaos, no pun intended.

mountaincycle661
09-13-2009, 04:18 PM
Ive been hearing a lot of grumbling from those who used to play Alpha Legion and Iron Warriors. I can totally understand the frustration of having to give up your cultists and basilisks. However, its really not the end of it all...as a matter of fact, its quite the opposite.

Iron warriors used to bring a lot of obliterators and heavies to the board. Well, now you still use all of your oblits in a single game, and if you get up to 3000pts (not hard with chaos) then you throw in your basi and call it an apocalypse game. Or, if your opponent is cool, he'll let you use it anyways. I would. Instead of having a lord with servo harness, he counts as having a powerfist (its the same thing anyways haha). You can legally take vindicators still, so no problem there. I dont really see too much of a dramatic change from the old to new codex, to be honest.

Alpha legion....Again, if your opponent is cool, he'll let you use cultists even if they arent legal anymore. Or, get up to 3000pts, call it apocalypse and use guard rules. I used to play lost and the damned, and i have 60 mutants. They sucked...really bad...but now with the new guard codex out, im using them as penal legion! Im using my "big mutants" as ogryn now. I dont have enough models to put together a legal IG list, but in a small apoc game, having some traitor scum around is great.

I play thousand sons. The thousand sons rules suck. so instead of using thousand sons rules, i converted my sons to carry meltas, flamers and plasmas and i call them marines with the icon of tzeentch! I also used thousand sons bits with khorne berserker legs and possessed wings to make raptors! My oblits are painted in thousand sons colors. I converted the new fantasy chaos warrior horsemen to be my bikes...

My point is, if you feel your units or army has been swept aside by the new 'dex, just get creative and figure out a way around it.

Sitnam
09-13-2009, 04:31 PM
Sorry, i deleted my post as it was going off topic

Grabnutz
09-14-2009, 03:09 AM
Guys, guys, guys.... we still have The Lost and the Damned and the Vraks books from Forgeworld, which allow us Chaos players to run a really interesting (thought probably not tournament competitive) range of armies. There is also the Witchhunter enemies list. In all of these our dear cultists can be deployed alongside our Legions of Despair, along with lovely psykers...

A house rule I have is to allow cultists as troop choices in most CSM armies, though there must be an equal number of CSM troop units taken.

boo_barr
09-15-2009, 01:50 AM
I've been playing CSM for a year; they were my first army and introduction to 40k. Not many people around my area play the army (I'm the only one I know of), but in my experience you can have 101 different lists with CSM and all of them be competitive. From the perspective of someone who hasn't had experience with the previous codex, this current one is completely awesome.

The one thing I do have a gripe about is Gav's philosophy of not wanting rules to be clearly defined, so that players are "encouraged" to play how they want. I understand that there's a large audience of people who play 40k in the same way you'd play Dungeons and Dragons, with a patience for the undefined and a desire to come up with the experience together. However, there is also the other half who want to play this game competitively; the half which I belong to. I see the two sides as so mutually exclusive in intent, that the only way to satisfy both crowds would be to have two books. For the time being, I feel the GW is doing a good enough job in balancing 5th edition codices against each other, and most of the codex poo-pooing doesn't amount to much. If someone can win BoLS-con with a seemingly "average" Tyranids list, then this is clearly a game of generalship above all else.

Sneak V3
09-15-2009, 08:50 AM
Gav has now posted up a reply after going through the tons of comments people left. Makes for interesting reading!

DuskRaider
09-15-2009, 11:50 AM
Alright... Well, there are still some Chaos players in my area, but not nearly as many as before. Is that good? Yes, and no. Truthfully, in 3.5 even if you were playing against another Chaos army, you still didn't know WHAT it could be. It could be one of the 9 Legions, it could be an mixed Gods army (which was possible in 3.5, I'm sick of hearing people say it wasn't), you never knew. With the advent of Mr. Thorpe's "masterpiece", they've all but vanished. Gone are the days where you had some beautifully themed armies who used rules loyal to their Legion. Now it's all a mish-mash of either ridiuclously powerful units or subpar slop, and to that extent no one really takes the useless ones anymore (Dreadnoughts, Possessed, Bikers, Spawn, Raptors to an extent).

I've played Chaos Space Marines since I started the hobby (8 years ago). I've played Death Guard that entire time. What changed in 4.0? I became more powerful, I began winning more games, but I lost all of my flavor. Gone were my great Nurgle options, my Cult Terminators Chosen and Havocs. Gone were my Plague Swords and Plague Knives, my Banners, my Psyker Powers, and my Daemon Prince with great options. What I was left with was a fallacy.

I'm sick to death of these 4.0 fanboys coming in and saying "use your imagination" or "just use counts-as". Bull. I shouldn't have to do such a thing to properly represent my Legion. And FYI, there's NO WAY to represent Death Guard Plague Terminators, Chosen, Lord, Sorcerer, Havocs, or a Daemon Prince. That is to say, where does it say I can give them MARK of Nurgle, not some ridiculous Icon? Where's their Fearless, their FNP, their Blight Grenades, their Aura of Decay? To those who are sick of the "whining"... Ignore it. If you don't play chaos, shut yer mouth. If you do and you like the new Codex, good for you. Doesn't mean we ALL do.

On to Mr. Thorpe. Is he to blame for all of this? Not completely. He's not the ONLY person who made this Codex, he's not in charge, and I have a feeling the need to "streamline" the new Codex came from higher up (Read: Jervis). In so many ways it reminds me of the embarassment of the 3.0 Codex. No fluff, no flavor, no fun. Gav doesn't deserve all of the flak he's getting, but to tell us it's our fault and we need to make our own rules is ludicrous. He's dodging a lot of the facts and problems with 4.0, and I'm guessing it's just to save face. Whatever, you can't win 'em all. As for a new 5th Edition CSM codex or Legions? Not for a long, long time. We still have 30 billion useless Space Marine Chapters to make codices for.

boo_barr
09-15-2009, 02:16 PM
Actually, after Gav's latest reply, he's finally won me over to his side. I think all this time I've been interpreting his stance differently than what it is.

darth_papi76
09-15-2009, 02:39 PM
I can totally understand how dedicated Chaos players feel. They had really themed book and they lost it. I myself miss my Black Guardians.:( What I see as the biggest slap in the face to Chaos players is what happened with the Demons. I think that was a quick cash grab by GW. They doubled-dipped by putting out two armies using the exact same minis at the same time. When things like that happen, I don't what the fellas in the design studio can do about it? Hopefully the next book will bring back the Chaos flavor.

Chaos
09-15-2009, 02:42 PM
Chaos space marines will never go extinct but i do notice that im the only player in my town with chaos space marines and I dont understand why nobody else is.

Lord Alchemy
09-15-2009, 05:22 PM
I can definitely understand why this was done to Chaos in the first place. The new codex, while very competitive, has no flavor, most power builds as stated numerous times are pretty much the same for Chaos. In my area, we have pretty much 3 dedicated chaos players though there are lot of new comers as well so the new codex didnt really hamper that. I actually dont think the new codex is that bad. The last Chaos codex was definitely broke, but geez was it full of character. I played Nightlords mainly and though I can pretty much play the same list now, I cant have my "veteran" Raptors anymore. After looking at the new Space Wolves Codex which to be honest is incredible and many a power gamers wet dream; iI am hoping GW will be doing to all armies' codexes from this point on. Cool characters, lots of options, that is what I would like, not blandness or simplified codexes.

Vash113
09-15-2009, 05:33 PM
I still notice quite a few Chaos players around, but I've seen very few themed armies. Most of the chaos players I see are using the Codex for the double lash and things like that. Most of the dedicated Chaos Marine players I knew before have moved onto something else. Few have actually gotten rid of their models but most don't use them much if at all anymore and that's sad.

I deffinitely think the new Chaos Codex has a lot less flavor and the focus on Renegades while interresting is just stupid in my opinion. It's the Codex: Chaos Space Marines not Codex: Renegades and while you could say "but renegades are chaos marines too!" they really aren't at least not in the same sense. There's a BIG difference between the ancient Legions still fighting the Long War and the newly or recently turned Renegades. They have vastly different organisations, numbers and equipment. After all it doesn't really make sense to see Red Corsairs running around with Reaper Autocannons and the Crusade era Bolt Pistols, Bolter and Chainsword weapons combos not to mention all the other outdated gear.

Most people I see playing a renegade Chapter use one of the loyalist codexies to do it. Like I know a guy who plays a Fallen Dark Angels army and uses... the Dark Angel Codex.

Anyway the loss of Cult Terminators, different kinds of Summoned Daemons, and Legion unique troops and units like the Bassalisk and Cultists, and the loss of Veteran skills really hurt the army, smacked a lot of Veteran players in the face and saw a lot switch armies.

DuskRaider
09-15-2009, 06:09 PM
It seems that most of the people saying "suck it up" are the same ones who own other armies who aren't Chaos. I myself have 4 armies, all of which are Chaos related. Death Guard, World Eaters, Renegade Militia, and Daemons. I refuse to play my Renegades using the new IG codex, I bought them for the IA books and I intend to use them (unfortunately people are either allergic to anything completely GW or are jealous because they can't afford FW pieces). Daemons are really fun, and IMO the best example I can find for a codex that's both streamlined and filled with options AND fluff. Too bad it came too late.

Aceshigh
09-16-2009, 01:37 AM
People still play Chaos locally, but it's always the same soulless powerbuild that's the only thing Chaos has going for it.

Terrible Codex, it's a real shame what he did to Chaos.

thankyou i completely agree with this statement

RocketRollRebel
09-16-2009, 01:48 AM
I think that the old Chaos codex was just too crazy and left way too much room for abuse and needed to be changed.

I dont think the new Codex is god aweful but I do agree that it could certainly use some work (ie:demon princes being so generic). It just suffers from being kinda a first generation codex (ie:more streamlined and simpler) just like how codex: Dark Angels suffers from the same problem.(and they got it much worse!)

Its still a decent and competitive codex IMO. Their troops choices are pretty great (excluding T-Sons lol) and I don't believe that you need to go with a mech PM army to win games with them. I just think the codex could use a bit more flavor in the future.

boo_barr
09-16-2009, 11:06 PM
thankyou i completely agree with this statement

Are you kidding me? I don't know what circumstances have led you guys to believe that the current CSM codex is only capable of one or two "soulless power builds", but I assure you that any quality 40k player can find 101 awesome lists in that codex. You can build a list around almost every single troops choice, elite choice, fast attack choice, heavy choice, or HQ choice in that codex. Maybe you liked the previous version better, but you absolutely can't be familiar with the current codex if you think you're limited in your options for a "competitive" list.

Lanparth
09-17-2009, 01:38 AM
Are you kidding me? I don't know what circumstances have led you guys to believe that the current CSM codex is only capable of one or two "soulless power builds", but I assure you that any quality 40k player can find 101 awesome lists in that codex. You can build a list around almost every single troops choice, elite choice, fast attack choice, heavy choice, or HQ choice in that codex. Maybe you liked the previous version better, but you absolutely can't be familiar with the current codex if you think you're limited in your options for a "competitive" list.

I played a Chaos Space Marine boots army when I abused myself and used this book. 6 squads of 10 man Chaos Space Marines outfitted with Champion and twin plasma guns, the rest of the army was up for grabs depending on how I felt. Typically at 2000 points I could get close to 90-100 marines depending on what I fielded.

But you know what? at the end of the day I didn't actually enjoy playing it. Even when I shifted my list around, moving in 3 squads of Chosen. Shifting lords. Changing my fast attack or HS (I've got 6,000 points of Word Bearers >.>)

And it still just. Meh. Meh is all I can do to describe how I feel. Sure, I won. Literally lost only about 3 games in 18 months. But victory always felt hollow, boring, and even predictable. And I didn't particularly abuse anything, and my armie's only marks are Undivided.

And its still a boring book, despite being themed. The previous codex had much more flavor for every unit really in my army.

Now, with my Orks and Space Marines, each battle is exciting, and not just because they are new, no good sir no! Its cuz Orks are so flavored with their rules and upgrades. Or how my marines, despite being a LESS competitve codex than Chaos, have the same as the Orks, more weapons, more upgrades, more fluff, more feel.

I've played GW for 15 years, and I played Chaos since the Chapter Approved Article for the Word Bearers appeared. Thats quite a while. I suffered 3.0, but I had the Chapter Approved to add my flavor. Then came 3.5, which while I acknowledge was broken, had the right spirit of things. I got 4.0 after a small hiatus, excited as I was when I bought it. When I did a full read through, I was thoroughly disgusted.

And no matter how many times I tried to stomach that list ,and that ****ty book, its never gotten better. I'll be waiting for 5.0, or Legions, before I touch the foul powers of the Word Bearers again. Which saddens me in one way, but by the end of my run with Chaos, I found actually playing the army to be stressful, just thinking about how bland the list always felt, and how poorly represented my force was in terms of wargear and "marks". (The standards per squad is stupid)

Grimgore
09-17-2009, 01:54 PM
I feel cheated in a way... for me the Word Bearers are the legion. Lots of demon fodder and messed up
demon engines of death. With the current rules for Greater,Lesser Demons and Dreadnaughts... not to mention
losing the Accursed Acrozius or Demagogue rules... sure the look is there but the feel is not. I'm not fielding
Demonettes, Bloodletters, Plauge Bearers, or even Nurglings. I'm not fielding Dreads with a reliable chance to
not kick my own behind. I can't field a Lord with an Accursed Acrozius and Demagogue ability.

All those rules that made the Word Bearers the Word Bearers are gone. In its place I have to deal with a paint
scheme for my army that makes it the Word Bearers... if I remember right they are not even shown in the 4.0 'dex.

I can understand wanting to streamline the book, the old book was a bit out of hand, but to be honest I didn't care if
it took a whole day just to craft the list... I loved the book. Did it need toned down? Yes. Should have been toned
down to such an extent? No. I can understand that GW wanted to take a different approach to codex building, Chaos
Dark Angels, & Blood Angels got the short end of the stick here. I think GW has seen enough "I HATE the current
(insert codex of choice) codex!!" threads that this is why we are seeing the another design shift to the books.
More options and new units to make the books exciting and new again.

Will I play another army? Probably not. I have invested too much time and money already to start over. Will I wait for
next Codex? Most definitely! Gav, may he move on to better things for him, won't be writing it... so at least I have some
small comfort there.

Grim

*edited for odd layout

boo_barr
09-17-2009, 02:23 PM
And it still just. Meh. Meh is all I can do to describe how I feel. Sure, I won. Literally lost only about 3 games in 18 months. But victory always felt hollow, boring, and even predictable. And I didn't particularly abuse anything, and my armie's only marks are Undivided.

And its still a boring book, despite being themed. The previous codex had much more flavor for every unit really in my army.

This is my main contention with those that don't like the codex; they often describe it as having no good options, or only one good list, despite plenty of meaningful options for almost every unit in the codex (quality over quantity). They describe it as "boring", despite being able to build the list almost any way they want and still be competitive. I don't get it, and maybe part of that is due to not having played with 4th edition, but there comes a point where players have to recognize whether they dislike a codex because it's actually not good, or if it's really just a case of them feeling like the fluff isn't well represented.

Lanparth
09-18-2009, 01:16 AM
The codex is competitive if you want it to be. I'm not saying its not competitive. But I am saying its boring, and poorly represents Chaos Space Marines.

Lord Anubis
09-18-2009, 01:29 AM
I don't get it, and maybe part of that is due to not having played with 4th edition, but there comes a point where players have to recognize whether they dislike a codex because it's actually not good, or if it's really just a case of them feeling like the fluff isn't well represented.

Of course it's about the fluff being represented.

If it was just about being able to field an army, GW wouldn't need to put out mulitple codexes. There'd just be one set of rules and you could use whatever models you felt like using to represent your army. You can use big bugs, I'll use spiky guys, and that guy can use metal skeletons. We each have an army now, so that's that, right?

There's a reason people choose to play Chaos instead of loyalist Marines, and it isn't just because the models have horns. They're supposed to have a different background and a different feel to them. And likewise, within that army, there's supposed to be variation. We all want armies that reflect the mythology we've read about, whether that army is loyalist, Tyranid, Necron, Ork, Eldar, or what have you.

Which is the problem with the current Chaos codex. There is nothing to it, no variety or depth past the color scheme a player chooses. It is, as many people have said, empty and soulless. There's nothing to it but a dry army list. A functional army list, yes, but most of us are playing this game for more than that.

:(

Lord Alchemy
09-18-2009, 03:16 PM
As many have said, the codex is very bland. I am just hoping that GW follows with excellent codexes (or codei?) such as Orks, SM, IG, and now Space Wolves. These codexes I hope will be the template they use for all future books. If they are, then I cant wait for when they redo the Chaos one.

Majorcrash
09-18-2009, 05:40 PM
This is my main contention with those that don't like the codex; they often describe it as having no good options, or only one good list, despite plenty of meaningful options for almost every unit in the codex (quality over quantity). They describe it as "boring", despite being able to build the list almost any way they want and still be competitive. I don't get it, and maybe part of that is due to not having played with 4th edition, but there comes a point where players have to recognize whether they dislike a codex because it's actually not good, or if it's really just a case of them feeling like the fluff isn't well represented.

oopps

boo_barr
09-18-2009, 07:44 PM
Of course it's about the fluff being represented.

If it was just about being able to field an army, GW wouldn't need to put out mulitple codexes. There'd just be one set of rules and you could use whatever models you felt like using to represent your army. You can use big bugs, I'll use spiky guys, and that guy can use metal skeletons. We each have an army now, so that's that, right?

There's a reason people choose to play Chaos instead of loyalist Marines, and it isn't just because the models have horns. They're supposed to have a different background and a different feel to them. And likewise, within that army, there's supposed to be variation. We all want armies that reflect the mythology we've read about, whether that army is loyalist, Tyranid, Necron, Ork, Eldar, or what have you.

Which is the problem with the current Chaos codex. There is nothing to it, no variety or depth past the color scheme a player chooses. It is, as many people have said, empty and soulless. There's nothing to it but a dry army list. A functional army list, yes, but most of us are playing this game for more than that.

:(

Hmm, I see your point now. For someone who started with 5th edition, the current codex feels very different and plenty "chaos-y" compared to the Space Marines codex, but I can see how if I had an older codex that did a better job of representing the different chaos legions, and then that got taken away, it'd certainly feel like a downgrade. I came into it just expecting an overall unified army of chaos marines, and was thrilled with all the different troop types I had along with unique units(Obliterators) and unique rules(Possessed).

boo_barr
09-18-2009, 07:45 PM
As many have said, the codex is very bland. I am just hoping that GW follows with excellent codexes (or codei?) such as Orks, SM, IG, and now Space Wolves. These codexes I hope will be the template they use for all future books. If they are, then I cant wait for when they redo the Chaos one.

I agree with this 100%. I've loved every one of these codices and have secretly hoped that CSM was in the cards to get a pass. I'm not sure if the current edition is considered 5th edition or not.

DuskRaider
09-18-2009, 10:52 PM
It's considered 4th Edition (thank GOD), which means Chaos SHOULD get a new book at some point.

ssylyss
09-19-2009, 12:44 AM
There's a reason people choose to play Chaos instead of loyalist Marines, and it isn't just because the models have horns.

Thats not true, alot of the models I use in games are based simply on appearance. :D

We lost a few chaos players in this area. There was a great iron warrior player, that didnt even buy the new codex after he saw what was in it. I miss being shot at by his basilisk, as well as our head to head demon prince battles, good times.

sangrail777
09-19-2009, 05:26 AM
I still like using my Black Legion Led by Abaddon and now Horus occassionally. The list does what I want it to do. It's no where near the super killey but it works enough to play.

Grimgore
09-19-2009, 03:08 PM
Hmm, I see your point now. For someone who started with 5th edition, the current codex feels very different and plenty "chaos-y" compared to the Space Marines codex, but I can see how if I had an older codex that did a better job of representing the different chaos legions, and then that got taken away, it'd certainly feel like a downgrade. I came into it just expecting an overall unified army of chaos marines, and was thrilled with all the different troop types I had along with unique units(Obliterators) and unique rules(Possessed).


you should go to a resale bookstore like Half Price Books, or ask around and see if any of your buddies has the 3.5 'dex, the one written mostly by Pete Haines.

with a semi-related story... i took a buddy of mine to GamesDay-Chicago last year and he loved the Chaos models and that did it for him... he bought a whole Chaos force. we played several games... my Word Bearers against his Nurgle Warband with Typhus. we got to talking about the old codex and i showed him my old copy, i can't throw it out, after looking through it for about 20 minutes he agreed... "Yeah that's a shame." now he collects Necrons... and he wasn't even playing Chaos that long either, just over a year.

<places hand on creepy book> i will not use another book for "counts as" Chaos ever... i will take my lumps till the next vision of Chaos is unveiled. not every Chaos scheme pans out, and a tenant of Chaos is to endure. i will endure and plan my vengeance against the lap dogs of the Corpse-God!! :D

Grim

Vince
09-20-2009, 03:11 AM
Chaos is well represented in my area. There are usually at least 3 if not more at every tourney and many people have chaos armies both hobby and heavy.

Hairy Piggy
09-20-2009, 08:49 AM
As a gaming army, I think there are very few really powerful lists, but those lists which are really powerful are very competitive. I personally like playing my chaos army as a themed force and use them as an opportunity for conversions.

biteymcrunrun
09-21-2009, 02:46 AM
i see the new chaos codex as almost a base for chaos. Its like they started making the codex, got the bones right, then stopped before they fleshed it out. To me theres lots of little problems, but nothing drastically wrong. Add in more options, and a few other changs, and i would be very happy.