Mindshackle Scarabs

[The Twilight Fade]

If you have a royal court and you have say 5 lords with scarabs and an overlord with them too and you randomly select the same model twice or more what happens?

Do the scarabs all trigger at the same time and force the model to take just a single leadership test or do they all happen independently and therefore the model take a separate test for each scarab affecting them?

[DarkLink]

They stack and force multiple tests, but an enemy model 'shackled' multiple times would only attack once total, not once per mindshackle scarab.

[Necron_Lord]

They stack and force multiple tests, but an enemy model 'shackled' multiple times would only attack once total, not once per mindshackle scarab.

Agreed except they would attack D3 times. They would only attack once if one rolled a '1' on the D3.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

I'm more curious about if a single model remains and that model fails its roll for the mindshackle, does it attack itself? Because it says that the model strikes out at its allies. Then it says inflects D3 hits on its units when it's the mind controled models turn to attack. I would think it can attack itself if the hits are being distrubted towards its own unit, but its still seems someone might try and say otherwise.

[Necron_Lord]

I'm more curious about if a single model remains and that model fails its roll for the mindshackle, does it attack itself? Because it says that the model strikes out at its allies. Then it says inflects D3 hits on its units when it's the mind controled models turn to attack. I would think it can attack itself if the hits are being distrubted towards its own unit, but its still seems someone might try and say otherwise.

That's possible, but I have been assuming that it won't work against single model units. I could be wrong, but I have been assuming that a model wouldn't attack itself. Hopefully the forthcoming FAQ will address this.

[The Twilight Fade]

I can't see why it wouldn't affect single models, GK's have psychotroke grenades that on a 6 do the exact same effect as mindshackle scarabs and it includes information to state that it works against single model units as they just re-roll the strength test.

Because the scarabs don't specifically state that they don't work against single model units I can't see any reason why they don't just face punch themselves just like they would on the trippy grenades

[dannyat2460]

Yes it works on single model units as that model attacks the unit.

someone got my Mephiston with them D3 attacks 4s followed by 4s and then activate my own forceweapon 1 dead Mephiston :(

[The Twilight Fade]

Yes it works on single model units as that model attacks the unit.

someone got my Mephiston with them D3 attacks 4s followed by 4s and then activate my own forceweapon 1 dead Mephiston :(

Mindshackles en masse make my tyranids cry :(

Mind you it is just the latest thing to make my nids cry, before that there were GK's with purifers and force weapons, DE with poison & JotWW to name a few. Oh well, maybe justice will be given to them one day

[Xenith]

Yes it works on single model units as that model attacks the unit.

someone got my Mephiston with them D3 attacks 4s followed by 4s and then activate my own forceweapon 1 dead Mephiston :(

They do D3 automatic hits, you dont have to activate your forceweapon. Why didnt you use your psychic hood?

[Angelofblades]

Don't have my dex on me at the moment, would someone mind quoting the entire rule since it's a rules discussion?

[Necron_Lord]

I can't see why it wouldn't affect single models, GK's have psychotroke grenades that on a 6 do the exact same effect as mindshackle scarabs and it includes information to state that it works against single model units as they just re-roll the strength test.

Because the scarabs don't specifically state that they don't work against single model units I can't see any reason why they don't just face punch themselves just like they would on the trippy grenades

Actually the grenades DON'T work on single model units. When the rule states to re-roll the result it means that '6' doesn't apply to them which is why I am of the opinion that mindshackle scarabs wouldn't work against single-model units either.

[DarkLink]

Psykotroke grenades specifically state that they don't work on single models. Mindshackle scarabs have no such statement.




Don't have my dex on me at the moment, would someone mind quoting the entire rule since it's a rules discussion?


Basically "one model in base with the IC with mindshackle scarabs must take a leadership test on 3d6. If the model fails, it attacks its own unit d3 times using its normal wargear, str, init, etc."

There's nothing restricting you from forcing multiple tests on the same model, but once the model fails a test it attacks a total of d3 times. Doesn't matter how many tests it fails, if it failed a test, it attacks its own unit d3 times.

[dannyat2460]

They do D3 automatic hits, you dont have to activate your forceweapon. Why didnt you use your psychic hood?

as it says you get all rules from wargear we decided that it was posible for him to activate the instant death rule, and you can only activate psychic hoods for enemy models :(

[White925]

It is a very awesome piece of wargear and will keep your units alive much longer than without it. But remember with your lord unit all taking the mindshackle scarabs to make sure they all get into base with only one model so then you can basically make the whole unit attack its self rather than having to randomize it.

[Ketharim]

Don't have my dex on me at the moment, would someone mind quoting the entire rule since it's a rules discussion?

Here you go: "If the test is failed, the victim strikes out at his allies. Instead of attacking normally, he inflicts D3 hits on his own unit when it is his turn to attack."

So I would say it is obvious it does not work on single models, do not see any room for discussions here, unless you love to make up discussions about nothing, just to prove you are right ;)

[dannyat2460]

Here you go: "If the test is failed, the victim strikes out at his allies. Instead of attacking normally, he inflicts D3 hits on his own unit when it is his turn to attack."

So I would say it is obvious it does not work on single models, do not see any room for discussions here, unless you love to make up discussions about nothing, just to prove you are right ;)

the victim strikes out at his allies. This is fluff it has no bearing on the rules.

Instead of attacking normally, he inflicts D3 hits on his own unit when it is his turn to attack." this is the rules part so this is where we focus

he inficts D3 hits on his own unit = 1-3 auto hits on models in the same unit as the model who failed the test that are then after rolls to wound allocated within the unit, this can include the model itself.

Now lets do the same again for a single model unit such as Mephiston, he fails the roll so inflicts D3 hits on his own unit that comprises of 1 model so roll to wound against that model and allocate wounds to that model exactly the same as above.

So I would say it is obvious it does work on single models, do not see any room for discussions here, unless you love to make up discussions about nothing, just to prove you are wrong ;)

The proof that this works on single models is page 4 of the brb rule book, unit types, infantry.

A typical unit of infantryis between 5 - 10 models strong but can be much larger.In rare cases, an infantry unit may comprise only a single model

another proof that units can be single models is in the unit profile found in the back of all 5th edition codecies, so again using Mephiston as an example,

Unit Composition

1 (unique)

[Caldera02]

Where in the rule do you see it can strike himself? If he was with buddies he would hit them and not at all himself. So why then if he is by himself would you assume he hits himself? You are stretching the language there. It's simple. If it's a lone model like Mephiston and he fails, he simply does not attack.

Now where it really gets crazy but still can be worked out, is what happens if you have a unit of IC's that assault together? Some of us in our group talked about it a bit and we think that in that situation it works like this. Iif they were all in the same unit together when they asaulted, lets say(Logan, a rune priest and a grey hunter), then they each have a chance to strike each other but if they all three asaulted independently then they would just end up not swinging like I mentioned above.

[thecactusman17]

Caldera, he can strike himself because he is part of the unit. The attacks go on the unit--if there were three models, and you wounded three times with the scarabs, you would be forced to allocate to your own model. We are talking the same thing--the attacks are against the unit, the opposing player has to allocate to models in the unit until they have all taken wounds.

[dannyat2460]

where in the rules does it state that they dont hit themselves?

it does however state that they hit there own unit which includes that model, it dosnt state that they dont attack if there is only them.

as for a unit of inderpendant characters then it would work like this, if a unit of 3 of them attack and 1 fails it then he hits himself as when its his turn to attack he counts as a seperate single model unit,

so according to your interpritation the mindshackle isnt as good against IC or single models as it is against massed units as it only stops them attacking

[Caldera02]

Caldera, he can strike himself because he is part of the unit. The attacks go on the unit--if there were three models, and you wounded three times with the scarabs, you would be forced to allocate to your own model. We are talking the same thing--the attacks are against the unit, the opposing player has to allocate to models in the unit until they have all taken wounds.

You can't allocate wounds back to the IC if he is doing the damage. Think of it as if he has become an enemy model for a turn and is swinging at your unit. You can't then put wounds on him.

Oh my interpration makes them not as good?! Cause making an IC not be able to attack isn't already AMAZING!

[The Green Git]

Where in the rule do you see it can strike himself? If he was with buddies he would hit them and not at all himself. So why then if he is by himself would you assume he hits himself? You are stretching the language there. It's simple. If it's a lone model like Mephiston and he fails, he simply does not attack.

Main rule book, page 3 says a unit can be a group of models, or a lone model. It's because the Mindshackle Scarabs say the victim attacks "his own unit". Even if Mephiston is alone, he's still a UNIT and therefor inflicts D3 wounds on his UNIT... himself in this case.

[Slug]

To be honest the only real argument forthcoming against a mode not attacking itself is that it doesn't make sense. We can agree I think that as the rule doesn't say you can't hit yourself and the wounds are allocated on the unit, then a single model being a unit has the wounds allocated on his unit and thus on him.

You can break it down to steps, 1: model in question fails leadership check. 2: a D3 is rolled and the model in question attacks using his own wargear however many times the D3 states. 3: the wounds are distributed amongst the models units as normal. Nowhere is there a differential between single a multi model units.

To answer the, but that doesn't make sense, the model in question is in full control of the lord, the lord is going to have no compunction against the model hitting itself, and the model doesn't get a choice. It may however get FAQ'd as the designers may not have intended it to be able to be used to take out lone characters, hence the strikes out at his allies passage. however, as of now RAW the rule works on single model units, and there is still a perfectly logical argument fluff wise.

[Caldera02]

If they wanted the mindshackle to be able to have the model inflicting the damage to be able to do it to themselves, they would have said so, Ala Daemon weapon.

I'm tired of seeing people trying to rules lawyer something that is already pretty good into something broken.
This needs an FAQ to be definitive but with our luck they will skip right over this one.

[dannyat2460]

The mind shackle isnt broken all you do to defeat it is not get in combat with the unit or make sure that the model you dont want to suffer the effects dosnt get in base contact with it very simple,

now i dont know why you are strugeling to understand that the model can hit themselves its very clear to understand in the rules and the fluff also is a good example also

and they do say that it does damage to itself by it doing wounds to its own unit.

and as your tired of ppl trying to tell you the correct way to use things your normaly arguing against the masses?

[thecactusman17]

You can't allocate wounds back to the IC if he is doing the damage. Think of it as if he has become an enemy model for a turn and is swinging at your unit. You can't then put wounds on him.

Oh my interpration makes them not as good?! Cause making an IC not be able to attack isn't already AMAZING!

It's not that your interpretation makes them not as good (for your info, I don't play Necrons and never have). It's that your interpretation is incorrect, insofar as "unit" is a defined term with a defined meaning, and if the model attacks his unit then he must be attacking the whole unit.

There really isn't a question here about the rules. The unit is attacked. Units are defined specifically as a collection of models that acts as a single coherent group for purposes of moving, shooting, assaulting, allocating wounds etc. Units can be ridiculously large groups, or even single models. In this case, we are pointing out that the mind-controlled model attacks their own unit, regardless of its size.

This is perfectly reasonable both in the definition of fluff, and by the rules for the mindshackle scarabs.

-edit-
Just in case there is any question, if there is an argument that the model counts as independent the turn it attacks, then it must either be allowed to attack its fellows or be FORCED to attack itself. If the model is attacking "his unit" and we are counting the unit as being in combat for that attack, then he must be forced to attack only himself. Personally, I think that the general idea is that the model tries to attack anything nearby in a fit of spasmodic and random swinging. And if he kills everything else off, then he's beset by images of being attacked or crawled over, injuring himself as he tries to fight off the imaginary foes.