Storm Shield vs Necron Phase Shifter

[Maelstorm]

Storm Shield = 25 points
Phase Shifter = 45 points

Each one provides a 3+ Invulnerable Save

Question: Why the points disparity?

[Gir]

Stormshield forces you to give up a weapon.

[The Twilight Fade]

Going head to head on points cost is not the best way of comparing them.

Necron Lords/Overlords are toughness 5 where as most things in the marine codices are only T4 coupled with the fact that the models that can take a phase shifter have the ever-living rule aswell

They have a chance to use it again even after they've "died" so the costing seems rather appropriate I think

[Denzark]

Points costs traditionally reflected availability of any given piece of equipment to that race or organisation.

[Necron_Lord]

Alright, I'll bite.

Storm shield is for Space Marines, so they can get a price discount on certain items to keep the largest player base in the game happy by getting a crutch.

Whew, I feel better now.

[Tynskel]

Alright, I'll bite.

Storm shield is for Space Marines, so they can get a price discount on certain items to keep the largest player base in the game happy by getting a crutch.

Whew, I feel better now.

Bwahahaha!

[MaltonNecromancer]

Because the comparison is not appropriate?

Necrons aren't Space Marines. Space Marines aren't Necrons. The two armies operate in completely different ways, and thus the items are costed differently! It's not a difficult concept, and it's the reason that things like Vehicle Design Rules just don't work. Making the assumption that because an item confers ability X means it should be available at the same cost to all armies is an obvious logical fallacy.

Most things in the Necron army that can get the 3++ offer significantly higher unit synergies than their Marine equivelant. Thus, the cost reflects the fact you're not just keeping them safe: you're also keeping a significant army resource (like say, a Resurrection Orb) safe as well.

By way of comparison, consider the Sanguinary Priest vs the Paladin Apothecary. The priest upgrades a squad to FNP for around 65pts-ish, give or take equipment. The Paladin Apothecary does the same thing, only for an additional 60pts. This is because giving FNP to Paladins is significantly more powerful than giving it to a generic Tactical Squad. The costs are different to reflect the difference in value to the relative armies.

The high cost of the Paladin Apothecary also reflects the GK's lack of FNP as a game resource; it's a significantly rare advantage, and more desirable to them due to their lack of Storm Shields.

For a real life comparison, consider: which would you prefer - thirty litres of bottled water and a GPS phone, or £200,000,000 in bank notes? If you're in a civilised country, you'd take the money. If you're marooned in the desert and take the money, then the guy who shows up with thirty litres of water and a GPS phone gets to keep both your £200,000,000 and your watch. Make the wrong choice, and regret it. It's the same principle at work in game design (though less dramatic, obvously).

Different tactical advantages should always be costed appropriate to the army they are designed for. When that succeeds, we have a good Codex. When it fails, people cry "undercosted!" or "overcosted!", followed by that perennial favourite "codex creep!" Simply pricing everything with a "one size fits all" mentality would be terrible game design.

So that's why.

[WereWolf_nr]

So that's why.

BOLS needs a "Like" button in the forums.

[Maelstorm]

No soapbox - just a few random thoughts from a statistical engineer.

On the way to a balanced codex system - point costs for the same items between codex's should be more similar, with unit abilities and specializations accounting for different point levels.

Basic 40k character generation cookbook formula for all 40k Codex's might look like:

Basic unit skill stat line cost = 10 points
+x cost for each +1 in basic armour, ie. 3+ save adds 3 points to the basic cost
+x cost for each increase in stat line
+x cost for x ability (ie. Jump/FNP/WBB/RP/Fleet)

With a basic Unit/Vehicle cookbook the authors could quickly design the foundation for all units and vehicles in any codex - they could be wildly different, yet still balanced in cost.

Weapons should follow a similar cookbook style for cost:
Basic Space Marine Bolter Cost = x
Change in AP cost = X
Change in Strength cost = x
Change in range cost = x

Specializations for each codex could then be designed to tune a codex towards Assault, Long Range, Mid Range or Mixed combat.

Currently the point cost for everything across all codex's seems completely dependant on the Author and not a balanced formula.

With a few cookbooks they could tune-up all of the codex's to 6th edition in one shot - without having to rewrite any fluff or retool any dies.

[Xas]

you are all missing the point...

the only 3wound SM modell with stormshield upgrade is the captain/grandmaster. and he allready starts with a 4++. a necron lord doesnt have any invul to begin.

the other marine with acces to it are either 1W or 2W.

its pretty simple that an item would be mroe costly on a more sturdy modell.

[MaltonNecromancer]

On the way to a balanced codex system - point costs for the same items between codex's should be more similar, with unit abilities and specializations accounting for different point levels.

They are. They just aren't calculated along a set formula because I'm nt sorry to say that games design is art, not science. Every time someone has tried to do what you suggest, it has failed, and hard. And I hate to point it out but with a few discrepancies, the codexes are pretty damn balanced. The statistical analysis from the last few tournaments shows this (aside from a slight strength in the GKs and a slight weakness in the Tyranids).

The issue isn't the game, it's that the reality of the game does not fit with your perception of what that reality should be. Which is, ultimately, your problem.

In all seriousness, write up your formulas, then see if you can get players to test them in a tournament; then you'll see.

[Maelstorm]

In every codex I'm come across examples of balanced point cost not being applied. Whether overcosted, or undercosted it's there.

Most tournament lists end up being min-max of those units.

[Ssyrie]

They are.

Not always. Look at the IG Codex. A Plasma Gun costs the same 15 points whether you give it to a BS 3 SV 5+ guardsman or a BS 4 SV 4+ storm trooper. Given the difference in effectiveness and survivability (especially with Gets Hot!) shouldn't it cost less for the guardsman and more for the storm trooper? A power weapon costs the same whether given to a WS 3 A 2 sergeant or a WS 5 A 3 Lord Commissar. Same problem.

Now I'm not saying that they need to create complex formulas to determine the point cost of every upgrade, but they should acknowledge that if a particular upgrade is more effective on one model over another model that the point costs should reflect this.

[davel]

I remember gav thorp mentioning yonks ago that points represented value to that army not as a comparison with other forces

necrons are shooty so close combat options/troops = expensive

there is another reason why the necron sheild is better it's a force multiplier.

termies give up there 5++ invun to gain a 3++ invun with a storm sheild.

where as reanimation protocols ( now effectivly a invun as they can't be power weaponed away) still remains

so it can be argues that a cron with a sheild gets a 2.44 ++ invun ( very rough math hammer)

dave l

[The Twilight Fade]

I remember gav thorp mentioning yonks ago that points represented value to that army not as a comparison with other forces

necrons are shooty so close combat options/troops = expensive

there is another reason why the necron sheild is better it's a force multiplier.

termies give up there 5++ invun to gain a 3++ invun with a storm sheild.

where as reanimation protocols ( now effectivly a invun as they can't be power weaponed away) still remains

so it can be argues that a cron with a sheild gets a 2.44 ++ invun ( very rough math hammer)

dave l

And don't forget the chance back up on a 4+ with a res orb and full wounds again with a phylactery :)

[Wildeybeast]

Well, the rumour mill has it that all codexes since IG have been designed with 6th ed in mind, so Necrons are 6th ed compatible but SM are not. So it could be the case that SS costs will be raised in the next SM codex, though I have to say that I agree with the various reasons given here as to why items don't/shouldn't have the same costs aross codexes.

[Necron_Lord]

In every codex I'm come across examples of balanced point cost not being applied. Whether overcosted, or undercosted it's there.

Most tournament lists end up being min-max of those units.

Agreed. Why do SW have Long Fang krak missile spam? Because it gives them long range dakka and is underpriced. Why did old DE tournament lists spam Dark Lances? Because it was readily available and underpriced. Why do non-GK and non-SW units use TH/SS termies instead of Vanguard Veterans for their CC deathstars? Because they are underpriced for what they bring. Why do GK lists have psyfleman Dread spam? I could go on and on.

Some people seem to be delusional. When is the last time you saw Mandrakes in a tournament DE list? I haven't seen any because it isn't cost efficient for what it brings. The same goes for Kheradruakh the Executioner.

[Maelstorm]

And don't forget the chance back up on a 4+ with a res orb and full wounds again with a phylactery :)

Res Orb (to get him back to last edition WBB level) 30 Points. Now only effects the unit it is in, not the old 6" radius bubble.
Phylactery 15 points.

[Tynskel]

No soapbox - just a few random thoughts from a statistical engineer.




Here's the problem with that, something that you should be aware of by being a statistical engineer.

Non-Linearities

Because of special abilities, terrain feature, dice rolls, ect., there are significant non-linearities within the 40k gaming system. Using the 'base cost' approach requires 100,000s of simulations to truly check to see if that approach would work in the light of the 40k game. (not to mention, how do you represent all the terrain features in your simulations. How about the 'brains' of your opponent? Unlike a climate model, or stress test on a piece of metal, you cannot start from first principle physics for the basis of your equations).

It is much easier to just self tune the army.

Even then, there are armies that end up with statistical advantages. But, you end up with a fun product the way it is now.

[The Twilight Fade]

Res Orb (to get him back to last edition WBB level) 30 Points. Now only effects the unit it is in, not the old 6" radius bubble.
Phylactery 15 points.

BUT the overlord and the res are both 10 points cheaper over all and you can have more of them spread across the army.

Yeah it did used to happen on a 4+ but you had to buy a res anyway because you couldn't take it against power weapons or missle launchers where as now you can regardless and can just stick with a 5+ if you don't want to include a lord

Afterall a 6" range was good but you didn't want to pile your guys together to take advantage of it because you were just begging for a multi-assault and could only have a maximum of two in the army

I appreciate what you are saying but the lords are more versatile now, better in combat, aren't limited to only 100 points of wargear and you can have res orbs/warscythes spread across lots of squads so the 6" bubble loss is mitigated and each squad then has a warscythe!

[hacksaw]

Saying about the across the board prices for plasma guns and power weapons in the guard codex anyone remember the 3.5 chaos codex where there were different prices for squad leaders/squads and for lords/leftenants ? i felt this worked really well but was widely thought to be one of the overpowered codexs ever.

[Saturn 3]

I like to look at some of the overcosting as correcting the current situation. Of course thats wishfull thinking. I'll wait and see if terminators cost more whenever the next codex comes out.