Pain Tokens and Necron IC

[flatdice]

Hi like many other playes i was up against some fresh revamped Necron armies and a interesting thing came up.


I decided to have tuns of raiders and rushed my opponents army and got into combat rather quickly. My dark eldar jumped out next turn and assaulted into squad of warriors with a necron lord ( an IC) the archon promptly killed him.

I asked my opponent if i get an pain token form it and he said yes so the rest of the game we played as if every death was a pain token. Long story short i ended up getting three pain tokens from that same necron lord (not before he beat 10 wracks and a haemoculus ancient in close combat and killed them all single handedly!)

So my guess is that is this the proper way to dish out pain tokens with the new necrons reanimation protocol since the Dark eldar FAQ refers to the old WBB rule so it aint crystal clear with IC

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1620226a_Dark_Eldar_Version_1_0.pdf
see second page

So how have you DE players been handling it ?

[DrLove42]

Interesting Point. The FAQ references "a unit with the ability to retrun to play e.g WBB". Same as applies for St Celestine or that grey knight dude

The FAQ references WBB in a squad, so that still stands. eg the whole squad must die for it to work

For IC I think the way the FAQ words it of "only gain a pain token once the model/unit is completely removed from play" means that the Lord will only confer a token once he is dead and fails his Reanimation Protocol roll. eg He can not return to the field of play.

It gets more complex with Trazyn and his unit jumping skills...cos technically you killed him, but hes not been removed from play....

[thecactusman17]

Every time you remove a non-vehicle unit from the board and it doesn't reappear by the end of the player turn, you get a PT. The caveats are, you must cause actual wounds thanks to our own units, and if there's a question on which unit caused the wounds (such as no retreat wounds) only the PFP units engaged with the enemy unit have the option of gaining those tokens.

[flatdice]

I see so the unit that puts down the IC for good is the one that gets the pain token alright this clears it up

[thecactusman17]

Here's the trick, you have to "destroy" the enemy non-vehicle model. My argument is that unless that Celestine is not destroyed, you should get a PT every time she goes down.

Here's the trick with Ever-Living (the Necron IC's WBB): Ever-Living doesn't occur until the model has been "removed as a casualty," that is to say that the IC has been destroyed. So if a Necron IC is destroyed, you gain a PT, then if it gets back up you have a chance to get ANOTHER PT from the same model.

[Tynskel]

I do not believe that is how it works. The model has to never exist on the table top again for you to gain the Pain Token.

[SotonShades]

I'd have to say, based on the DE FAQ that DrLove quoted, the model IC has to be removed from play. When the Necron ICs are removed as a casualty, they aren't removed from play; they are left in place on the board, still in play, so that you can roll for their Ever Living rule. They are still in the game and so do not confer a pain token. If they fail their roll they are then removed from play and do confer a pain token to which ever DE unit caused the final wound.

I don't really see how that is arguable?

[Archon]

According to the FAQ a Unit/IC ist destroyed, when it is removed from play. So the NecIC is removed, but has still a chance to come back to play. I don´t think that the DE are intrested in the possiblity of a diceroll, wich enables the Nec-IC to come back for another beating (fluffwise i know, but fluffwise is part of the GK-FAQ too:cool: (Deamon, Plasma)). In some rare cases, for example Battle Missions, units are allowed to come back once destroyed in that case a paintoken is given without question, or am i wrong?

So yes everytime a nec-lord "dies" an archon will be boosted with power from pain:)

[Tynskel]

that makes no sense!

How do you take pleasure from 'killing' something when you actually DID NOT kill it... It would be really satisfying when it stays down.

[DrLove42]

so the unit will only gain a pain token once the model/unit is completely removed from play. In the case of an necron unit, a pain token will be generated once a unit has been destroyed.

How is this debatable? You only get a pain token when the unit is completly removed. As in does not come back! If he comes back, no token!

[AbusePuppy]

How is this debatable? You only get a pain token when the unit is completly removed. As in does not come back! If he comes back, no token!

Except the Power From Pain rule doesn't actually say that, because it wasn't written with the new Necron book in mind.

I think that is implied by the way KP work with Everliving, but GW sometimes has inconsistent rulings, so I wouldn't bet money on it.

[Necron_Lord]

I agree with the statement that Pain Tokens are only given once the Necron unit is removed permanently. The only exception I see is with Trazyn. Let's say that you 'kill' him but there is a Lychguard, Necron Overlord, Necon Lord or Cryptek on the table and Trazyn rolls a 2+ for his surrogate hosts rule. If Trazyn replaced a Necron Overlord, a Necron unit could be destroyed by Trazyn reclaiming it, so the unit which 'killed' Trazyn could pick up a pain token in that way.

In the old codex, it would be possible to destroy a Necron unit but have the 'dead' Necrons make WBB rolls and join a different unit. The old unit was considered destroyed and would grant a pain token even though members of that unit might still be on the table in another unit. If a unit is wiped out to the Necron now, no RP rolls are allowed so it will stay destroyed and give up the pain token.

[MaxKool]

I think they will have to faq this as well.

If you take Trazyn and kill him in cobat A... He comes back to life over in some other unit.
The problem with giving a pain token for the replacement is that the unit that killed tryzan technicly didnt kill the lord. Hell they might even be nowhere near it... who knows how this is suposed to work...

typical m@ ward codex... they should have FAQs rdy to go with his books.....

[Tynskel]

I think they will have to faq this as well.

If you take Trazyn and kill him in cobat A... He comes back to life over in some other unit.
The problem with giving a pain token for the replacement is that the unit that killed tryzan technicly didnt kill the lord. Hell they might even be nowhere near it... who knows how this is suposed to work...

typical m@ ward codex... they should have FAQs rdy to go with his books.....

that's unfair!
Every 5th edition codex gets FAQed big time. That's what happens when you introduce fun to the game. People get confused.

[DrLove42]

It is a fair comment that Ward books could use an FAQ quickly. But not because they're badly written, cos theres so much crazy stuff in the book that no one knows what to do with!

[MaxKool]

Sory, i didnt mean badly written so much as I ment he tends to write unique rules without giving any info about how they interact with brb rules. If u are writing a book full of one off and unique rules u need to be better at making them clear. MW is terrible at making rules clear without a FAQ.
I'm loving the necron book tho, mws best since the marine codex...

Realy In comparison the de book is pretty strait forward, the nid books FAQ was terrible and seemed like it was written by somone who haddent even read the codex... Both of mws other books nEeded significant faqs to fill in things he just kinda left out....

Anyone Remeber the BA vindicator..... He's kind of a sloppy writer is all I'm saying

[MaxKool]

Some stuff came up in a game last nite. U get tokens from any killed IC but only when they are put down for good. No kp no pain token is how we play that.

The tryzan question is differant, the court models dont give up kill points by thelselves. A unit of them would be worth one kp as they can make their own unit of court models. If they join a squad hey are not a separate kp as they basically cout as an upgrade character or sarge. So if tryzen replaced one there would be no pain token, u. Haven't killed the IC and the lord he replaces isn't an IC and not a separate kp. So no it's realy hard to get a kp/pain token from mr. Infinite.