On Imotekh and Destroyers

[Necron2.0]

Ok, so ... just got my copy of the Necron Codex. I haven't finished my analysis of it and I likewise haven't decided if I'm going to shelve my Necrons because of it, however ....

The first thing I'm noticing is that Destroyers are the road to failure. I've never actually fielded Destroyers, because they take up a fast attack slot, and given how badly Necrons have always blown in close combat, I've found unless I'm fielding at least one unit of scarabs (two are preferred), I can bank on losing my entire army in sweeping advances. In the old rules, at least "we'll be back" mitigated this to some degree, but the new rules make it worse, since all downed Necrons self-destruct if their unit falls back. I used to field heavy destroyers (usually one unit as fire support with two monoliths), back when heavy destroyers were classed as heavy support. Now, they are simply a Destroyer upgrade. So, looks like all my destroyers get shelved at the very least.

The other thing I noticed, and was wondering if others have noted (I hadn't seen this posted yet, so apologies if I just missed it), is the implications of Imotekh's Staff of the Destroyer on close combat. The staff is basically a template weapon - pick a direction, fire and it hits whatever is under it. Unlike a normal template weapon, however, you don't have to actually fire it at anything. This means he could willfully fire it in the direction of, say, a squad of marines surrounded by scarabs. This stands a good chance of annihilating the marines, leaving most of the scarabs able to lock something else up next turn. Of course, this is a one-shot deal, but still ....

[Brymm]

Doesn't "shelving your Necrons" seem to be a little bit of an over reaction? Scarabs are great. I don't think it's a big deal that in order to compete on a higher level you need to use them. If you want to compete as Space Wolves, you probably need to use Long Fangs. If you want to compete as Grey Knights, you probably need Psyflemen. If you want to compete as Marines, you need Rhinos and if you want to compete as Guard you need Chimeras.
From what I've found and from what the internet says (which, as we know, is never wrong :-p), in order to compete, you need to use Scarabs. Does that mean 30? No. There can still be room for your destroyers.

[Demonus]

My only complaints with Imotekh are that his staff isnt even a power weapon, just a 1 shot str 6 ap weapon that can go 2-12inches. after that, it is just a piece of rebar he can hit bad guys with.

his 4+ steal initiative is cool...50% of the time, and his nano scarab thing only comes into play if you field deep striking flayed ones...which cant assault if you deep strike with them....

should be under 200pts for his abilities/gear.

[The Twilight Fade]

It's the tactical flexibility that makes him worth his cost. Yeah he sucks in CC (re-rolls to hit and wound but no power weapon :( but can be used as a flamer!!) but for the cost you get a phaeron overlord (a whole 20 point upgrade on a normal overlord), seize on a 4+ which is huge for some army builds, night fighting for extended periods of time which screws guard parking lots over (plus free lightning strikes on their units) AND he has a 2+/3++ AND carries a resurrection orb AND the staff of the destroyer shot previously mentioned

I don't see how he's not worth the points tbh

[Brymm]

Agreed. I think all of the named ICs are amazing in this codex but am alittle dissapointed that they don't allow FOC swaps like in other armies. It seems like, with the blood scarabs rule, they were maybe THINKING about it (as in allowing flayed ones to be troops). I wish it would have happened.

[White925]

Yeah most of the named characters in the necron codex are pretty good. The stormlord i think is prolly the best because of making night fight for an average of three turns can just destroy certain armies, also the lightning attack ontop of that is just crazy. Id have to say a really cool character orikan not the best but his super saiyan mode is awesome. I like the necron codex very balanced in my opinion with certain builds but it will be very easy to make a bad list with necrons.

[Maelstorm]

Immotek allows me to get the Scarabs into vehicle parking lots with less harassment...

The Destroyers new and improved 24" weapon range makes them expensive bolter fodder for 90% of the armies out there. They need to sell the "new" jetbikes, so the old Jetbikes (Destroyers) had to take a hit. 180 points for 3 single-shot 36" range Lascannons riding on a 1 wound chassis doesn't give me a warm-fuzzy feeling. Adding 80 points to "bulk" the unit up only gives you 2 more 3+ save wounds with miss-matched ranges.

[Brymm]

It appears they are really making the Necron player focus on manuervability and shooting, not so much RANGE and shooting. I wonder if this was intentional?
Seems to be, considering the Storm Lord and Solar Pulse allowing you to cut range from your opponent. Next, consider the seemingly 24" range for guns across the board. Next, consider all of the fast/skimmer/jump pack/teleport every turn/jet bike/beast swarms the codex has. Next, consider that Necrons, save for 1 really expensive unit (big Lychgaurd units with swords and shields) are horrible in close combat. Finally consider that there is no army like this one.

So what was Ward's vision?

An army that uses manuervability and superior short ranged fire power to win.

I can imagine he was thinking of a constantly shifthing battle plan, moving units in to shoot, moving others to cover, teleporting out of range before being assaulted the following turn, manipulating night fighting rules to confuse the shooting and assualt armies alike. Nearly everything in the Codex supports this idea.

Most of the strategies floating out there seem to want to try some "gun line" business or some "walking unkillable relentless machines of death" idea where the silver baddies march forward, take hits and keep on coming. These do not play to the seeming designed strength of the army.

Perhaps more of an army along the lines of immotek/ court/ scarabs/ jet bikes supported by night scythe immortals or night scythe warriors and annihilation barges. Maybe there's a spot in there for Obyron with some Lychguard or something as a counter assualt unit. Use the superior mobility, short range lethal firepower and better generalship and win the day....
but I ramble on.

[thecactusman17]

That sounds right Brymm, and I think that it is a natural evolution from the old army. The traditionally mid-ranged to short ranged army always lacked for the ability to engage with an enemy unless they took a small handful of units. But now, even without the new transports, the army is significantly more mobile at a minor cost in durability. A full static gunline is frankly going to get murdered by several armies. With a single approach vector and the way multiple assaults work now, gunlines have to focus on repelling assault units after 2-3 turns of shooting maximum, and then they collapse, OR they have to mobilize to dictate where and when the enemy can engage them, if at all. So if necrons want to gunline, they have to do it in a particularly mobile way, avoiding the pitfall of just allowing themselves to take shots like they used to.

[Tynskel]

has anyone noticed that Heavy Destroyers are cheaper...

[Skari]

I am a fan of the new destroyers. Combined with things like the ctan worldscape power, forcing people into the open and then blasting with ap3. Granted, they are not nearly as good as before, but they do have their uses. One of my good Necron general friends just uses them as cheap fodder for the heavies now. Making them last longer.

As for Imhotek, the potential that lightning has is fantastic! Also messing with alfa strikes is great. But sometimes a simple solar pulse will do the job nicely for cheaper. IMO some of the best items in the book are cryptec ones... the -D3" to charge is one of them.

[Necron2.0]

Doesn't "shelving your Necrons" seem to be a little bit of an over reaction?

No, not really. Quite a few of the changes in the new Codex were done solely to force existing players into major overhauls of their army. Why should I reward childish behavior?


has anyone noticed that Heavy Destroyers are cheaper...

Largely a moot point. Heavy Destroyers now take up a fast attack slot instead of a heavy support slot. In both old and new Codices, any army above a patrol that wanted to survive (much less win) needed at least two units of Scarabs. With Scarabs having received a substantial upgrade, with the Destroyers in general having been markedly nerfed, and with competition for the one remaining slot from Wraiths and the new jetbike unit, Destroyers and Heavy Destroyers are now "fluff only" additions to an army.

[Skari]

No, not really. Quite a few of the changes in the new Codex were done solely to force existing players into major overhauls of their army. Why should I reward childish behavior?
You can easily play with your entire collection of necron models and still win. You dont -need- new models you -need- to relearn what you do have.

I disagree with your comments on heavy and regular destroyers. I think that they have a spot in the army, force enemies into the open with the c'tan and worldshaping and then gun them down with AP 3.

[Necron2.0]

For the cost of the Destroyers and C'Tan, I could get two Monoliths and do it better. Or, for a lot less, I could use the FA slot to get more Scarabs, and then I wouldn't need the C'Tan nor AP3 for anything.

[Maelstorm]

has anyone noticed that Heavy Destroyers are cheaper...

Reduced movement from 24" to 12", reduced WBB from 4+ to 5+, Range 36" (Heavy Bolter range?), preferred enemy (useless for them in 5th edition) and reduced cost from 65 to 60 (for a single-shot, 1 wound model), not really a bargain.

How many Space Marine 48" range Lascannons can you stick in a group of Longfangs for 260 points: the cost of 5 missmatched range and strength Destroyers and Heavy Destroyers? As a bonus the Longfangs can split their firepower and counter assault (which would make preferred enemy a bit more useful).

With mixed Destroyers/Heavy Destroyers you'll roll just 7 dice for shooting each turn, just 3 dice if your target is greater than 24" away.

A better example of the Heavy Destroyers mothball status:
3 wounds of Heavy Destroyers = 160 points
30 wounds of Scarabs = 150 points

I've played several games using Newcrons - I didn't come across any time I would have preferred to have 3 Heavy Destroyers instead of Scarabs - roll 3 dice with Lascannons for a 20% percent chance to glance and a 10 % chance to Pen AV14, or for 10 less points roll 50 dice with Scarabs which will remove any armour in the game...

[The Twilight Fade]

Heavy destroyers have something over long fangs in that they can move AND fire where long fangs suffer if they have to move and the 36" range is mitigated by the fact they can move 12" and still fire.

Now i'm not saying the cost for them is justified and they aren't as good as they used to be but long range anti-tank isn't exactly available in droves in the codex

[Maelstorm]

Agreed.

With 19-24" assault range the scarabs are your anti-mech weapon of choice. Nightfight / Solar Pulse gets them into base to base with enemy vehicles. IG Chimera spam, rhino/razor spam, even the Stormtoaster tastes the same to Scarabs en-mass. Hit a Razorback just 5x and even scarabs will pen on 3's.

[The Twilight Fade]

Scarabs Vs Reaver Titan :eek:

Yeah thats pretty much my view aswell, 150 points and the fact tomb spyders are a billion times better now for free reinforcements means the anti-mech is sorted in all aspects.

Still would be nice to have a chance to destroy that annoying predator/leman russ/vindicator in the 1st turn rather than waiting for the scarabs to get there and Zahndrekh can give them tank hunters too for strength 10

[Maelstorm]

Just wait until they start eating Titans, Baneblades and Stompas in 1 turn during friendly Apoc games! Lol

Outflanking Scarabs anyone?

[Tynskel]

4 things changed: 1) WBB--- which you can use 3 times a game turn, instead once every game round! 2) no longer jetbikes. 3) now 5 points cheaper. 4) Preferred Enemy.

The WBB is a significant enhancement.
The jetbike loss is a loss, but I wouldn't say crippling. Generally, you want those guns shooting each turn.
The cheaper = better!
The preferred enemy may not be the best thing in the world, but it aides to keep them alive longer. Especially if you are thinking about regular destroyers. A marine combat squad that gets torn up by the AP3 fire will be vanquished by the preferred enemy on a charge.

Ultimately, the heavy destroyers are still 'Flying Lascannons'. 3 of them for a Doom Scythe. Which isn't bad--- with proper shennanigans, you can always have cover saves. The Doom Scythe will be hard to keep alive for long.

What it comes down to is: what are you using for your anti-tank? If you are using Annihilation Barges, you will need heavy firepower for anti-tank. Scarabs are nice n' all, but, are a high priority target, and don't work until you are in CC. In many ways, scarabs are a higher priority than the Destroyers.


Hmmm.... Heavy Gauss Cannons cannot 'glance', as much as everyone would want them to. They are Str 9--- 9+6 = 15 a pen.

[Lerra]

The regular Destroyers seem pretty solid. Their biggest downside is that they compete with scarabs, but I could see a list with two squads of scarabs and a squad of regular destroyers being viable.

That said, I'll probably convert my Destroyers into Tomb Blades.

[thecactusman17]

Can't believe Daemonus or anyone else is complaining about Necrons suffering in CC, like they typically should, when they have incredible shooting to balance it back out. Necrons are not CC friendly, they never have been. Scarabs aren't even that great in CC, except vs. tanks. Focus your army to excel at shooting anything that tries to hit you in CC, and you will rarely suffer too greatly for it.