The Lost Primarchs; A Speculation.

[Thornblood]

So all the primarchs we currently know of are themed (and apparently have a 'wyrd' which names their theme, but this might just be the way that Fenrisian culture describes them rather than being the galactic hard-and-fast rule).

Anyway, they are all also supposed to be different reflections of the Emperor and his abilities/characteristics/personality.

So whats missing? We have a few different ideas on militant marshals, (Guilleman, Horus, Johnson, Sanguinius), Seige makers/breakers (Dorn, Perturabo), Psychic man (Magnus), Barbarian types (Russ the executioner/ Angron the, well angry), Mechanical/creative mans (Manus and Vulcan), Intelligence sneaky mans (Alpharius/Omegon), perfection man (Fulgrim), Batman (Night Haunter), fantaic-man (Lorger), wild riding fast hunting man (Khan) and sneaky shadow fast hunting man (Corax).

So, whats missing? What would make a good wyrd/theme for the other two that are missing. That is more interesting than "The one that got lost" and "The one that's busy doing other things".

[Psychosplodge]

I may have read it wrong but the outcast dead gave me the impression the wolves had already been used to deal with a badly behaved overly psychic legion at least once before...

[Wildcard]

If you think of it this way: Basically each primarch has a counter to itself. Not in the meaning of someone who could beat him (rock-paper-scissors), but more like a balancing character (like ying & yang)

- For excample Russ vs Angron are both heavy brawlers. Sort of wild and untamed berserkers, yet, with completely different motivators. Other is that for the purpose of build, other is berserker just for the fun of it / lust for it (atleast thats how he is described. Personally i haven't read anywhere that he would have had a role similar to Russ in mind when he was being crafted)

Primarchs that could be possibly paired:

Fulgrim & Sanquinius (Both pretty boys excelling at swordplay, yet a bit far fetched match perhaps)
Konrad Kurze & Corax (Both sneaky heavy hitters, with both having heavy reference to flying creatures: Bat and Raven)

Now, from the list missing counters are:

Magnus: Loyal, yet stubborn and arrogant Mega-psyker (that was the reason for his fall)
Fulgrim: Art,culture,music etc civilised trait lover. Also always aimed for perfection
Lorgar: Interested in truth (same trait as emperor - to know as much as possible), obsessed in eliminating all blasphemy
Khan: Yet fast and furious, one of the most notable traits is the emperor passionate dream to unite all the stars in one mighty empire


So, that leaves Magnus, Lorgar, possibly Fulgrim and Khan. It would seem improper to 'change the pattern' of creation motives for primarchs and their roles. Apparently there are still four candidates, where there should be only two.

How would you pair those primarchs without proper pairing, or how would you pair the whole lot of them?

[Grailkeeper]

Now, from the list missing counters are:

Magnus: Loyal, yet stubborn and arrogant Mega-psyker (that was the reason for his fall)
Fulgrim: Art,culture,music etc civilised trait lover. Also always aimed for perfection
Lorgar: Interested in truth (same trait as emperor - to know as much as possible), obsessed in eliminating all blasphemy
Khan: Yet fast and furious, one of the most notable traits is the emperor passionate dream to unite all the stars in one mighty empire




Alpharius would presumably counter the search for truth, in his use of intelligence (as in spying, not brains), which would be hiding knowledge. A couple of the primarchs, russ and angron in particular could be said to balance out fulgrims civilized approach. That leacves Kahn and Magnus. The space wolves have already eliminated a legion, and hate pyskers. Maybe there was another pysker legion?

[laestli]

Well, since it would be a good wager that the Emperor was a thinking man it wouldn't to far fetched to propose that one of the missing Primarchs caught a terminal case of Philosophy.

[Thornblood]

So here is a plausible thought;
One of the missing legions was Psychic and had a philosophical theme. Maybe dealt with morality?? This would have an overlap into theology (on the philosophy and morality topics) which would piss off the word bearers. Its the intellectual faith that's missing from the Imperium (we have plenty of fanatics). So maybe the word bearers engineer it so that they get wiped off the face of the galaxy. Or maybe they think about what they are doing with humanities great crusade/enforced aetheistic pogrom and dont like it. Or maybe they work out how the Emperor can become a god?

And maybe the other is an alien sympathizer/ dominator, something humananity has the potential for but its outlawed.

A psychic philosopher would pair with Magnus. A Theologan would pair with Lorgor.

Pairing I would go with;
Angron and Russ As barbarians, russ with more cunning, maybe making Angron a mass-butcher whilst russ is more one on one executioner
Perturabo and Rogal Dorn as seigemasters (slightly attack and defence respectively)
Ferrus Manus and Vulkan as forgemasters
Horus and Guilleman as leaders
Corax and Night Haunter as stealthy night fighters- Corax the rebel who has overthrown tyrannies ad Night Haunter like a tyrannical batman.
Magnus and the psychic legion killed by the wolves (as psykers)
Maybe Khan and Alpharius- both as scouts and hit-and-run types.
Maybe Johnson and Mortarion- both brilliant strategists especially in defence (on their separate planet against beasts and undead warlords), maybe they are the regular fighters- one slightly more for attack and the other for defence, much like perturabo and dorn.
Which leaves Lorgor with the other deleted primarch.

[Daemonette666]

I was thinking that the 2 missing legions were killed because of a combination of both genetic mutation/ deviation and the rebellion of their primarch from the Emperor's goals or rules. The reason why the Thousand sons were later attacked by the Space Wolves.

One of the missing Legions could have had a genetic flaw that made their organs and limbs slowly turn into living metal over time. When they encountered the first Necrons emerging from hibernation, they mistook them for lost kin, or were enthralled by the similarities they shared with them. They refused to destroy the Necrons, and some were converted. The Emperor sent a force in to destroy the Necrons, and the missing Legion sided against the Imperial forces - and lost.

I think the rumour about the Ultramarines number expanding due to them absorbing another legions forces is a flawed theory. The lost legions genetic flaws would have made them too much of a risk for the Emperor to allow any of them to survive. Guilliman would have refused to take any flawed gene seed into his legion.

I worked out that the 2 lost legions were destroyed due to their genetic flaws making them uncontrollable. It hints at it in the first chapter of the newest Horus Heresy novel "Fear to Tread". If Magnus could get the Emperor to keep his last 1000 or so Marines alive because they had not yet succumbed to the Flesh Change. If the Emperor could ignore the curse of the Wulfen that the Space Wolves had as their genetic flaw, or that he also ignored Sanguinius Blood Angels "Red Thirst" vampiric blood lust genetic flaw. How bad would the genetic flaws of the 2 lost legions have been?

[Psychosplodge]

If the flaw was doctrine rather than mutation though there wouldn't be an issue, bit of hypnoconditioning, everythings fixed, one less legion, and primach.

[Wildeybeast]

I was thinking that the 2 missing legions were killed because of a combination of both genetic mutation/ deviation and the rebellion of their primarch from the Emperor's goals or rules. The reason why the Thousand sons were later attacked by the Space Wolves.

One of the missing Legions could have had a genetic flaw that made their organs and limbs slowly turn into living metal over time. When they encountered the first Necrons emerging from hibernation, they mistook them for lost kin, or were enthralled by the similarities they shared with them. They refused to destroy the Necrons, and some were converted. The Emperor sent a force in to destroy the Necrons, and the missing Legion sided against the Imperial forces - and lost.

I think the rumour about the Ultramarines number expanding due to them absorbing another legions forces is a flawed theory. The lost legions genetic flaws would have made them too much of a risk for the Emperor to allow any of them to survive. Guilliman would have refused to take any flawed gene seed into his legion.

I worked out that the 2 lost legions were destroyed due to their genetic flaws making them uncontrollable. It hints at it in the first chapter of the newest Horus Heresy novel "Fear to Tread". If Magnus could get the Emperor to keep his last 1000 or so Marines alive because they had not yet succumbed to the Flesh Change. If the Emperor could ignore the curse of the Wulfen that the Space Wolves had as their genetic flaw, or that he also ignored Sanguinius Blood Angels "Red Thirst" vampiric blood lust genetic flaw. How bad would the genetic flaws of the 2 lost legions have been?

First off, holy thread necromancy Batman!

Secondly, them being destroyed outright is not conclusive. First Heretic makes clear that the Ultramarines DID get a sudden massive influx of new recruits around the time of the 'disappearance'. That part is not a theory. Whether they were from the missing legions is speculation by the Word Bearers characters. Secondly, Lorgar is deeply upset by the 'disappearance'. If this were due to such extreme genetic insatiability that they had to be destroyed, he wouldn't be so cut up about, it would be a necessity. Everything they put in the books is just hints to keep us guessing, nothing is hard and fast.

On a related point, check out this little teaser.

http://www.blacklibrary.com/Images/BL/blog/2012/08/large-sigillite.jpg

[Wolfshade]

Ohhh, where is the picture from?

I like Thornblood's idea of pairs, though his list is missing a couple (even without the two)

[wittdooley]

It's made clear in a number of the HH books that Russ and the Wolves had already been unleashed on another Legion before the Thousand Sons.

In Fear to Tread, we learn that the 2nd "missing" legion was somehow genetically flawed and wiped from existence. Sanguinius makes that pretty clear in the first 50 or so pages.

We know the high level "What happened to them." What we're missing now is the specifics. A legion of Psykers already pretty much exists in the Thousands Sons. That wasn't even an issue prior to the Council of Nikea, so it's doubtful that "being psykers" was their genetic flaw that caused them to be eliminated.

[Psychosplodge]

it's more some kind of web than pairs though isn't it?

[Wildeybeast]

Ohhh, where is the picture from?

I like Thornblood's idea of pairs, though his list is missing a couple (even without the two)

It's from the BL blog, upcoming book cover.

http://www.blacklibrary.com/Blog/you-sigillite-horus-heresy-art.html

The pairs thing doesn't really work as you can pair a number of them up with each other, for example rather than Vulkan and Ferrus, you can have Ferrus and Fulgrim as they are both perfectionist craftsmen (and are best buds) or Corax and and Sanguinius as they both rely on lightning fast orbital insertion warfare and fly around on wings.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Oooooh! Nice cover.

inb4 Malcador the Sigillite. :p

[Psychosplodge]

That's clearly garro out his armour.

And did you notice his chair has the two lost primachs skulls embedded in the arms.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Yep. Malcador be pimpin'

[Kyban]

That's clearly garro out his armour.

And did you notice his chair has the two lost primachs skulls embedded in the arms.

Too small for primarch skulls, though it definitely has something to do with those legions.

[Cpt Codpiece]

malcador supposedly turned to dust trying to keep the demons at bay while the emp was getting spanked by horus....... how could he be chained to a throne with the lost and the damned numbers on the arms??? hhhmmmmm maybe we will find out eh?

[Psychosplodge]

Not all the primachs were larger than marines, Alparias and omeagon were clearly the same size as their troops...

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

malcador supposedly turned to dust trying to keep the demons at bay while the emp was getting spanked by horus....... how could he be chained to a throne with the lost and the damned numbers on the arms??? hhhmmmmm maybe we will find out eh?


That isn't the Golden Throne, looks too dark and too small. I'd guess that that is on a ship.

I get the feeling that this was earlier than that anyway.

[Psychosplodge]

malcador supposedly turned to dust trying to keep the demons at bay while the emp was getting spanked by horus....... how could he be chained to a throne with the lost and the damned numbers on the arms??? hhhmmmmm maybe we will find out eh?
Really? I thought it was him and gulliman that held the imperium together post heresy?

[Cpt Codpiece]

That isn't the Golden Throne, looks too dark and too small.

I get the feeling that this was earlier than that anyway.

yeah, i saw it was not 'the' throne. just badly worded by me out of fluffgasm overload LOL

why would malcador be chained to the throne though? he was regent of terra after all, and as some theorise the dual soul of the emperor (his hoarcux LOL). so maybe the lost primarchs were part of the inquisition or at least the forming of it, be it as a part of or a reason for.

in one of the old stories he turned to ash on removal of the throne, after keeping the demon hoards from coming through the webway gate. oim sure its in the visions of book

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Though he was a powerful psyker in his own right, Malcador's mental powers were nothing compared to that of the Emperor, and so when Rogal Dorn brought the severely injured ruler of mankind back to the Golden Throne, he found Malcador sitting wasted, energy lashing across his shrivelled body, tortured by the psychic bombardments of the Webway (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Webway). He was almost dead. Tech-priests (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Tech-priest) then made the exchange - disengaging Malcador from the machine. As he was removed, the last flicker of life left him and the dust of his corpse blew across the stone floor.
At the instant of Malcador's death, the Emperor awoke from his coma - Malcador had saved a last kernel of strength and passed it on to the Emperor so he could give his servants their final orders

This.

He also isn't chained to the throne, he just has loads of chains. He's described as having them in a few places.

[Kyban]

Not all the primachs were larger than marines, Alparias and omeagon were clearly the same size as their troops...

It sounds like they are exceptions though, and both missing primarchs being small seems unlikely.

I wonder what the picture is about, there's a Garro book coming out in December but I don't see any connection between him and the missing legions.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

It sounds like they are exceptions though, and both missing primarchs being small seems unlikely.

I wonder what the picture is about, there's a Garro book coming out in December but I don't see any connection between him and the missing legions.


It's an Audiobook written by Chris Wraight simply named "The Sigillite". :)

[Kyban]

It's an Audiobook written by Chris Wraight simply named "The Sigillite". :)

So it is Malcador in the pic but I don't know of any connection he had to the legions either. It didn't sound like both legions had been destroyed, one is referred to as "the lost" like they missplaced it. :p

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

As a Lord of Terra he was probably involved in the decision to destroy them.

[expacifist]

A couple of small observations. The mask at Malcadors feet fits the description of the mask he wares when meeting the head of the assassin temples in nemesis so i wonder if they are involved in someway.

It is also mentioned in The Outcast Dead that the wolfs have been unleashed before in a simmilar manner as against magnus.

[Kyban]

From what I have gathered it sounded like XI had been destroyed by the wolves and II had somehow disappeared. It'll be interesting to see how they are mentioned in the book, I hope it doesn't screw up the 2nd legion fluff I've been working on for my army. :(

[Psychosplodge]

found one

http://fc02.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2011/187/0/3/my_little_primarch_by_fiannavalkyrie-d3l956h.jpg

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Psycho, go die in several fires.

[ElectricPaladin]

In some other universe, there's a "good guy" faction - I can't recall which, or where - that fakes its own elimination in order to act from the shadows more effectively. Perhaps the elimination of the 1st Lost Legion is what precipitated the decision to use the 2nd Lost Legion in this way.

So, the events would go something like this:

1) Legion A is corrupted by Chaos.
2) Russ and the wolves are sent to destroy it. Since - as we know from the events at the beginning of the Heresy - the Emperor is trying to keep knowledge of Chaos from the rest of mankind, the "genetic flaw" lie is invented and spread around. Perhaps even some of the Primarchs are kept in the dark - everyone knew Sanguinius, for example, was such a nice and upstanding guy, I can see the Emperor deciding that he shouldn't know how far an entire Legion could fall.
3) Legion B goes into hiding. Russ and the wolves help arrange for the fake destruction.
4) The Heresy happens, and before long, everyone who knows the truth is dead or missing.

What was the original plan? Now, who knows?

I don't think this is likely, but it is entertaining.

[wittdooley]

In some other universe, there's a "good guy" faction - I can't recall which, or where - that fakes its own elimination in order to act from the shadows more effectively. Perhaps the elimination of the 1st Lost Legion is what precipitated the decision to use the 2nd Lost Legion in this way.

So, the events would go something like this:

1) Legion A is corrupted by Chaos.
2) Russ and the wolves are sent to destroy it. Since - as we know from the events at the beginning of the Heresy - the Emperor is trying to keep knowledge of Chaos from the rest of mankind, the "genetic flaw" lie is invented and spread around. Perhaps even some of the Primarchs are kept in the dark - everyone knew Sanguinius, for example, was such a nice and upstanding guy, I can see the Emperor deciding that he shouldn't know how far an entire Legion could fall.
3) Legion B goes into hiding. Russ and the wolves help arrange for the fake destruction.
4) The Heresy happens, and before long, everyone who knows the truth is dead or missing.

What was the original plan? Now, who knows?

I don't think this is likely, but it is entertaining.

Again, save for the fact that in Fear to Tread sanguinius and horus have a discussion stating that the 2nd of the legions was wiped out due to a genetic defect. This is different than having the wolves sicced on them. This chapter is "the lost"

The other one was executed by Russ. This chapter is "the fallen"

[Foxhound2delta]

First off, holy thread necromancy Batman!

Secondly, them being destroyed outright is not conclusive. First Heretic makes clear that the Ultramarines DID get a sudden massive influx of new recruits around the time of the 'disappearance'. That part is not a theory. Whether they were from the missing legions is speculation by the Word Bearers characters. Secondly, Lorgar is deeply upset by the 'disappearance'. If this were due to such extreme genetic insatiability that they had to be destroyed, he wouldn't be so cut up about, it would be a necessity. Everything they put in the books is just hints to keep us guessing, nothing is hard and fast.

On a related point, check out this little teaser.

http://www.blacklibrary.com/Images/BL/blog/2012/08/large-sigillite.jpg

You know no one has payed attention to the symbols in his hands above the skulls. Surly they must be some clue as to the legion.

[Psychosplodge]

Psycho, go die in several fires.

Sorry that was just Sanguinious wasn't it, my bad.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

You know no one has payed attention to the symbols in his hands above the skulls. Surly they must be some clue as to the legion.


You mean the Sigil of Malcador (the now symbol of the Inquisition) and the Staff of the Emperor (bearing the aquila)?

[Wolfshade]

I always thought the staff to be bigger than that

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

He's a frail old man.
He may have survived Lorgar backhanding him, but I doubt he wants to carry a giant staff all day.

[Psychosplodge]

I always thought the staff to be bigger than that
That's what she said ?

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Well, he is on a pimp throne.

[Psychosplodge]

somebody photoshop slave leia onto the chain lol

[Wolfshade]

Sisters of silence anyone?

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Party rock is in the house tonight!

[Cpt Codpiece]

You know no one has payed attention to the symbols in his hands above the skulls. Surly they must be some clue as to the legion.

if you notice the eye, is actually very like the old inquisition symbol from the old terminators. a nice nod to the old days :)

if anything the relevance of the symbols above the throne, and placment could mean II was purged as heretics (inquisition) and the XI were purged from mutation with the emperors wrath (space wolves).

i think the most important symbolism is indeed the discarded mask, as he wore it as the head of the assasinorum (is that right spelling), again another hint to the demise of the legions????

all we can say from here till the book arrives is that we are all juiced up for fluff :) just frighteningly its gonna be old man fluff (lemon party!!!! LOL)

[Wolfshade]

How many agents would you need to take out an entire legion?

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

NO.

NO.

Nononononono!

My eyes can never unsee!

[Wolfshade]

NO.

NO.

Nononononono!

My eyes can never unsee!

Unsee>?

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

all we can say from here till the book arrives is that we are all juiced up for fluff :) just frighteningly its gonna be old man fluff (lemon party!!!! LOL)

This

[Wolfshade]

I don't get it

[Psychosplodge]

DO NOT TYPE LEMON PARTY INTO GOOGLE

If you thought blue waffle was bad....

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Malcador the Sigillite? Lemon Party?
You can't picture the horrifying mental image here?

[Psychosplodge]

I really would rather not.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

That was aimed at Wolf.

[Wolfshade]

I'll keep away from this

[Cpt Codpiece]

awww where is the lure of slaanesh when you need it eh?

LOL :D

but sorry i couldn't help myself :p

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

*shudder*

[Psychosplodge]

There's no tentacles, s/he's not interested...

[Wolfshade]

Tentacles you say?

[Psychosplodge]

It's a Slanaashi staple, have you not seen some of the deamons?

[Melon-neko]

found one

http://fc02.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2011/187/0/3/my_little_primarch_by_fiannavalkyrie-d3l956h.jpg

thank you!
Best thing I've seen on this site =D

[wittdooley]

You guys are so odd sometimes.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

I try to stay away from the Brony part of all this...

[Kyban]

Why do all of our threads end up involving ponies?
I blame splodge.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

So do I. He is a menace and must be stopped at all costs.

[Foxhound2delta]

if you notice the eye, is actually very like the old inquisition symbol from the old terminators. a nice nod to the old days :)

if anything the relevance of the symbols above the throne, and placment could mean II was purged as heretics (inquisition) and the XI were purged from mutation with the emperors wrath (space wolves).

i think the most important symbolism is indeed the discarded mask, as he wore it as the head of the assasinorum (is that right spelling), again another hint to the demise of the legions????

all we can say from here till the book arrives is that we are all juiced up for fluff :) just frighteningly its gonna be old man fluff (lemon party!!!! LOL)

That's along the lines of what I was thinking.

[Jmaximum]

I may have read it wrong but the outcast dead gave me the impression the wolves had already been used to deal with a badly behaved overly psychic legion at least once before...

You did not read that wrong at all. That was the implication.

I put forth to you all that one of the missing primarch's was Brony-man, lover of all things pony.

[wittdooley]

You did not read that wrong at all. That was the implication.

I put forth to you all that one of the missing primarch's was Brony-man, lover of all things pony.

Were they necessarily psychic though?

[Jmaximum]

I think the rumour about the Ultramarines number expanding due to them absorbing another legions forces is a flawed theory. The lost legions genetic flaws would have made them too much of a risk for the Emperor to allow any of them to survive. Guilliman would have refused to take any flawed gene seed into his legion.



I believe this is mentioned in either Outcast Dead or Know No Fear: The Ultramarines did absorb the leftovers from one of the legions the Wolves were sent to destroy.

[Jmaximum]

A couple of small observations. The mask at Malcadors feet fits the description of the mask he wares when meeting the head of the assassin temples in nemesis so i wonder if they are involved in someway.

It is also mentioned in The Outcast Dead that the wolfs have been unleashed before in a simmilar manner as against magnus.

if II is 'the lost' and XI is 'the damned': maybe Russ took out II and XI become the Legion of the Damned? A legion whose genetic mutation actually turned them into spectral undead marines maybe?

[Cpt Codpiece]

thing is LotD are not actually a legion, and they wear and use post heresy gear.

i think the old firehawks theory has now been debunked, but i still think they will be classed as a lost in the warp 'chapter' rather than one of the lost legions.

it would be nice also to have them as a manifestation of the emperors will to save the imperiums forces when the guano hits the fan.... but nah thats to religious to be used.

[Kyban]

if II is 'the lost' and XI is 'the damned': maybe Russ took out II and XI become the Legion of the Damned? A legion whose genetic mutation actually turned them into spectral undead marines maybe?

My impression was that the II is "the lost" and "the forgotten" and it sounds like the entire legion vanished in a suitably mysterious way (not uncommon in the 40k universe). The XI was "the purged" and was wiped out by the wolves for genetic flaws or something similar. I don't really have a whole lot of evidence but that's what I've assumed from everything I've heard about them.

[wittdooley]

They are the lost and the fallen. Not lost and the damned.

There's no reason the legion has to have been psychic. Magnus was not punished for having a legion of psykers. He was punished for disobeying his fathers direct instruction.

I hate to sound like that douchy fluff ****, but nearly all of this stuff is in the books.

[Cpt Codpiece]

They are the lost and the fallen. Not lost and the damned.

There's no reason the legion has to have been psychic. Magnus was not punished for having a legion of psykers. He was punished for disobeying his fathers direct instruction.

I hate to sound like that douchy fluff ****, but nearly all of this stuff is in the books.

the whole lost and damned thing, when i said it earlier it was a throwback to the old chaos book.

but fallen/damned can really be used to fit the legion that was wiped out. fallen via heretic or mutation grounds means they would have been damned by their actions or their genetic instability.

given the exchange between horus and sanguinius in fear to tread, i suspect the fallen/damned were indeed mutants of a more severe level than the initial thousand sons (flesh change not sorcery).

[mjasghar]

OK theres a lot of people talking from a unrealiable memory.
First Heretic: Major expos here. Assuming the gol vorbek really did what they did - One of them damages XIs incubator (htf he could do that beats me, these things survived crashing into adamantium crusted planets) because 'it would solve a lot of heartache' (explicitly for Lorgar) by killing him. This means that XI is more damaged in the warp vortex. There is actually a scream from him i think. So it is likely Chaos entered his incubator while he was in the warp and mutated him.
Lorgar was really upset about this one, maybe because he was there when the Emperor found XI? A distinct probability is XIs legion is also there, and the Emperor decides XI is too mutated to live, maybe he is already affecting his Legion. This would account for calling in the wolves - not all of them, but Russ and a great company probably. With XI dead, he can't voodoo his legion and they get absorbed by Smurfs.
Now I am not convinced with the absorption, btw. There is no hint in Know No Fear (which I haven't finished) of a smurf thinking about how he wasn't a smurf once. But sumrfs have 500 worlds to recruit from and their geneseed seems immune (at least from prime source) to mutation from speeding up.
So there was something very specific and horrific about XI. Probably it was only revealed after a time, not right out - after all, the Emp didnt kill Magnus (granted they'd been chatting for years before meeting) or Sanguinius for their mutations.
I havent started fear to tread, so i can only speculate, but the general feeling on II is sorrow. More liklely that suggests a gradual deterioration and then ? execution when he went of the edge? The sorrow would make sense if he had fought beside his bros for a while. Whereas with XI its a lot more anger at XI himself.

As a side note, the Emp comes to Colchis, a planet of Chaos worshippers, and he doesn't wipe them out and doesn't think of the effects on Lorgar? Wtf? There is no way he could have missed it. Yet with Angron he either nukes the planet for using nueral exciters or leaves it behind.
Now the truth is, the fluff was messed up and the whole secret Colchis stuff came later when it seemed a good idea.And no one thought to reconcile it. I blame Alan Merrett.

[Foxhound2delta]

In regards to opposites and similarities what if one of the missing legions wasn't a physic legion as some may think but the exact opposite and were a legion of blanks? That could be very dangerous.

[wittdooley]

In regards to opposites and similarities what if one of the missing legions wasn't a physic legion as some may think but the exact opposite and were a legion of blanks? That could be very dangerous.

Oh snap. I like that. A lot. That would be a very real problem for the emperor. Big time.

[Psychosplodge]

Were they necessarily psychic though?

How else do you explain unicorn magic? :rolleyes:


thank you!
Best thing I've seen on this site =D

It's what the internets for....:)


Why do all of our threads end up involving ponies?
I blame splodge.


So do I. He is a menace and must be stopped at all costs.

I'm sorry, but it's mostly relevant - as relevant as we get anyway, plus Tizzy loves them really

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Get out.

Nope.


Get out.

[mjasghar]

The gene-seed has a psychic element to it - a link to the Primarch and a way to enable the change. This is often used to explain how sometimes marines can approach silently despite being in power armour - esp Ravenguard and mutation effects like Salamander glowing eyes. Being blanks would not allow that.
Also, chapters use Librarians to purge the psychologicaly unsiutable. HTF the Exorcists and Black Templars do that without Librarians I don't know - maybe they use their serf-Astropaths

[Foxhound2delta]

The gene-seed has a psychic element to it - a link to the Primarch and a way to enable the change. This is often used to explain how sometimes marines can approach silently despite being in power armour - esp Ravenguard and mutation effects like Salamander glowing eyes. Being blanks would not allow that.
Also, chapters use Librarians to purge the psychologicaly unsiutable. HTF the Exorcists and Black Templars do that without Librarians I don't know - maybe they use their serf-Astropaths

I haven't been in this hobby nearly as long as others but I have read my fair share of fluff and I don't ever remember a librarian being present to unlock a marine's gene seed. Plus I feel being silent in armor has nothing to do with psyhic geneseed activation. Maybe the legion of space marines shared the link of being blank with their primarch. Who's to say but I think the idea of a blank legion would be very controversial and could allow for some very interesting story twists. I wouldn't rule this out quite yet.

[mjasghar]

Lol
If your gonna quote my post at least read it
I said librarians are used to screen candidates - they look for taint or weakness of character etc
I did NOT say they activate the gene seed
Since corax invisibility is psychic - the image shows on scanners it's just ignored , and in fear to tread Horus sneaks past sanguinary guard it's not a stretch to imagine his sons share that
Really a 8-9 foot bloke in powered armour that weighs enough to crack concrete by walking on it is somehow silent even to a lictor? (as shown in helion rain) what about the noise of the power generator?!

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

Really a 8-9 foot bloke in powered armour that weighs enough to crack concrete by walking on it is somehow silent even to a lictor? (as shown in helion rain) what about the noise of the power generator?!That might just come under the heading of "40k does not make sense". :P

Although, keep in mind that the Ravenguard have access to silencer equipment that can make a shotgun completely, 100% silent. That tech might be at play whenever we see Power Armour be stupidly quiet.

[Foxhound2delta]

Lol
If your gonna quote my post at least read it
I said librarians are used to screen candidates - they look for taint or weakness of character etc
I did NOT say they activate the gene seed
Since corax invisibility is psychic - the image shows on scanners it's just ignored , and in fear to tread Horus sneaks past sanguinary guard it's not a stretch to imagine his sons share that
Really a 8-9 foot bloke in powered armour that weighs enough to crack concrete by walking on it is somehow silent even to a lictor? (as shown in helion rain) what about the noise of the power generator?!

Okay but what about after the Council of Nikaea? How did the Legions "psychically" screen new members? (Maybe that explains the creation/role of Chaplains in other Legions) Furthermore if the some of the primarch's abilities were psychically driven wouldn't they too have been censored? I think the abilities that marines demonstrate like you mentioned earlier have more to do with passing of genes than the geneseed having a psychic attribute to it. For instance Salmanders having glowing eyes would be a trait they inherited through the geneseed as the glowing eyes was a much more dominant trait much like I inherited brown eyes from my mother and not the blue eyes of my father. I don't see the geneseed having a psychic element to it at all and instead see the gifts that the marines exhibit as plain old genetics playing out. If a primarch was a blank then that could be a genetic trait that his marines could inherit.

[mjasghar]

The whole screening thing is more recent - part of the fluff for the ease with which the legions fell us they just took anyone based purely on genetics and attitude. This was supposedly how those already arselicking chaos got in eg Typhus. Certainly the HH novels show a lot of these guys are closer to the nutters you see in certain modern day armies ie youtubing their atrocities rather than the knights/noble warriors they tend to be shown as now
As for Nikea - that seemed more to be restricting sorcery not the more innate powers cf fear to tread where sanguinius has visions with no thought about censure. Curze had a fear aura and the power to generate lightning
Btw I hate how some primarchs are only getting limited edition novellas eg the khan and vulkan

[DarkDesigner]

In regards to opposites and similarities what if one of the missing legions wasn't a psychic legion as some may think but the exact opposite and were a legion of blanks? That could be very dangerous.

I thought this would be awesome too, it would really fit in with the whole 'opposites' theme when pairing up primarchs (something I too have tried (http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?23787-Info-on-One-of-the-Two-lost-Primarches-in-the-First-Heretic/page5)).

To me, it seems like the Emperor had two Primarchs for each job, and they could then compete to be the best at it, to push them all to achieve their best. For example, Angron and Russ could both have been the executioner legion but Russ showed that his legion had the most self-control when it came to objectives; Guilliman and Horus were in the running for Warmaster but in the end Horus had the charisma while Guilliman was more of a statesman; Dorn and Perturabo are the seige experts. It seems odd that Magnus alone was the psychic meant for the throne.

All that said, I'm not sure what good a pariah would have done on the golden throne, so maybe it would have needed to be another psychic... I just love the null idea.


Btw I hate how some primarchs are only getting limited edition novellas eg the khan and vulkan

I'm with you, I'd love to read Aurelian but I don't have an eBook and you can't get the papercopies for love nor money. I'd also love for them to release the audiobooks as paperbacks, while I appreciate some people need an audioversion as they can't read so easily, by the same token some people need a version they can read. I don't have a hearing problem myself, I'd just like the choice.


One other thought I had regarding the nature of the lost Primarchs.

I can't believe the emperor only tried to engineer sons. If they're meant to represent the peak of humanity, and all facets of warfare, there must have been room for one Primarchess. Surely?

[Ultisacrifice74]

In my personal thought i think the one of the primarchs might have gone rouge like the soul drinkers did when they saw thr flaw of the imperium. maybe the one who went rouge could have been gifted like the blood angels primarch and had a vision that saw how corrupt the imperium could have been. and probably went on some mass genocide killing those who he saw as those who were the corrupt. Which i think the other lost primarch went to go stop him along with Russ and brought the first conflict of brother vs brother. Which brought the death or banishment of the psych one and drove the primarch of the 2nd crazy of guilt and left on his ownto continue the hunt for his lost brother along with maybe some of his legion and the majority might have joined the 13th legion. thats what i think might have happened you never know.

Tell me what yall think?

[wittdooley]

In my personal thought i think the one of the primarchs might have gone rouge like the soul drinkers did when they saw thr flaw of the imperium. maybe the one who went rouge could have been gifted like the blood angels primarch and had a vision that saw how corrupt the imperium could have been. and probably went on some mass genocide killing those who he saw as those who were the corrupt. Which i think the other lost primarch went to go stop him along with Russ and brought the first conflict of brother vs brother. Which brought the death or banishment of the psych one and drove the primarch of the 2nd crazy of guilt and left on his ownto continue the hunt for his lost brother along with maybe some of his legion and the majority might have joined the 13th legion. thats what i think might have happened you never know.

Tell me what yall think?

One of them went rouge!!?!? Does Mary Kay know?!?!

BTW, you sorta just described Kurze.

[Foxhound2delta]

Yeah that is so Kurze. After doing some more research though I think the other physic to Magnus was Lorgar as his powers develop much as the dropsite massacre.

[Daemonette666]

If I were to team up the Primarchs to be either counters or similar/akin type Primarchs I would list them as follows.

Angron - Russ (both frenzied fighters who rush the enemy head on preferring close quarter fighting)

Vulcan - Ferris Manus ( both weapon smiths who have dealing with the mechanicus, though one more than the other)

Conrad Curze - Sanguinius (both use rapid strike forces to take the enemy by surprise dropping into the heart of their defences and have a greater ammount of jump troops in their forces)

Lion El 'Johnson - Guilliman (knightly warriors who use tactics and combined arms forces to their best uses)

Perturabo - Dorn (Seige and defence specialists)

Fulgrim - ?

Jaghatai Kharn - ?

Alpharius - Corax (both use stealth and sneak tactics)

Lorgar - Magnus the red ( Both seek knowledge, one through sorcery, the other in search of faith, a purpose , a god to worship)

That just leaves Fulgrim and Jaghatai Khan. Both are as un related to each other as Angron is to Magnus. I would propose that the missing Primarchs are their counters. One who tries to achieve perfection in everything, the other who strives to live on the move, always trying to find what is over the next hill, the next experience, hence his use of bikes, rapidly deployed troops in fast rhinos, lots of jet bikes (in the early days).

[inquisitorsog]

I don't think the "pairings" principle really is that prevalent.
For instance
I'd match Lion-Alpharius.
Lion - ends up loyalist, but through treason reasons.
Alpharius - ends up traitor, but through loyalist reasons.

Both are also very secretive to boot. I don't know that Alpharius is stealthy so much as tricky.

Many of the primarchs are secretive though. You could pair Magnus and Lion for the same reasons: Both ended up on the "wrong side" and were doing things in secret before the heresy. Or, maybe pair Lorgar and Lion because both have religious warrior (preacher and monk respectively) aspects.

I'd also match Curze to Corax as the respective stealthies. As the Night Haunter, Curze struck terror into hearts by being the bogie man who was watching and would strike whenever you didn't expect it.

I don't see the II and 11 legions as paired. They just wanted to hold two legions for the purpose of being fan created and they got morphed into the "missing" legions over the years. In current developing backstory, it seems to me one or both never joined the Imperium. Possibly, one died before unification and the other pretended to accept it, but immediately rebelled or refused the offer.

[plawolf]

If I were to team up the Primarchs to be either counters or similar/akin type Primarchs I would list them as follows.

Angron - Russ (both frenzied fighters who rush the enemy head on preferring close quarter fighting)

Vulcan - Ferris Manus ( both weapon smiths who have dealing with the mechanicus, though one more than the other)

Conrad Curze - Sanguinius (both use rapid strike forces to take the enemy by surprise dropping into the heart of their defences and have a greater ammount of jump troops in their forces)

Lion El 'Johnson - Guilliman (knightly warriors who use tactics and combined arms forces to their best uses)

Perturabo - Dorn (Seige and defence specialists)

Fulgrim - ?

Jaghatai Kharn - ?

Alpharius - Corax (both use stealth and sneak tactics)

Lorgar - Magnus the red ( Both seek knowledge, one through sorcery, the other in search of faith, a purpose , a god to worship)

That just leaves Fulgrim and Jaghatai Khan. Both are as un related to each other as Angron is to Magnus. I would propose that the missing Primarchs are their counters. One who tries to achieve perfection in everything, the other who strives to live on the move, always trying to find what is over the next hill, the next experience, hence his use of bikes, rapidly deployed troops in fast rhinos, lots of jet bikes (in the early days).

I would pair Sanguinius with Fulgrim (both pretty boys who love art and culture as much as, if not more so than warfare), and Cruze and Corax together (in Deliverance Lost, Corax explicitly muses on just how very similar he and Cruze were, and how easily the two might have had their roles reversed but for luck and chance).

You also left Horus and Mortorian out, and the matching of Lorgar with Magnus seems forced.

I feel that it would be likely, given what the Emperor ultimately planned, that there would have been another Primarch with vast psychic potential in addition to Magnus, as otherwise that was the Emperor putting all his retirement eggs in one basket with Magnus.

I would have also paired Guilliman with Horus, as both were more than just warlords and generals and potential heirs to the throne.

I think those are the easy pairings, the ones left do not easily match with any of the others.