Imotehk the Stormlord - actually pretty dull?

[Freefall945]

Slammed my Craftworld into the new Necrons for the first time today, and found myself reading the fluff for Imotehk.

Disregarding his monumental demolition of the Alaitoc forces lead by Farseer HerpDerpLetsChargeAfterThemIntoATombWhatCouldPossi blyGoWrong, I was surprised to see the codex fluff suggest that Orks are a constant thorn in his side - a blind spot in his galaxy spanning strategic acumen because the only way to get a meaningful advantage over Imotehk is to "abandon all sense" which apparently Orks do.

Really, though?

I mean, I get that Orks are dumb, and not tactical geniuses by and large, but they're not a -random force- on the battle field. They're simple. Want fight, want noise, want loot. Orks given an opportunity to have a good scrap they're reasonably likely to win will dive right into it in almost every case. We have copious amounts of established fluff of Space Marines and Imperial Guard deflecting otherwise overwhelming Ork forces precisely BECAUSE they are tactically predictable. Eldar and Dark Eldar take this to a whole new level by routinely aggroing orks on to folks they don't like, because Orks are dumb and easilly manipulated in most cases.

Apparently Imotehk scratches his robo-dome and shrugs at this?

Am I missing something? Is this just a poorly thought out attempt to give a flaw and some texture to Imotehk who is otherwise "The Best General"?

Or does Matt Ward really believe that, presented with a target to attack and an opportunity to attack it, Orks are as likely to charge as they are to fall back, break into dance or write dirty limericks in the mud and ash?

[eldargal]

I've not read the fluff myself yet but it does seem bizarre that the Imperium, Dark Eldar and Eldar all routinely manipulate Orks into infighting or fighting for them etc. but a highly experienced Necron lord can't manage it. I would assume it was just ill thought, 'hey lets make Orks a thorn in his isde, wouldn't that be cool?'. The Eldar bit is a tad irritating, but a common enough mistake (which doesn't make it less irritating).

[wittdooley]

Orks are much more disorganized. I read it that the lack of tactical organization was what perplexed him.

[lattd]

Maybe its the sheer fact that they don't use tactics that perplexes him? I mean maybe he expects something to happen so he plans for that outcome be in reality the orks just carry on towards the gun line?

[Wildeybeast]

Orks do use tactics, they are just brutally simple. A combination of a)shoot/stomp it with the biggest, noisest thing you can build and b)charge at the enemy very loudly and quickly and hit them over the head until they stop moving. Not exactly Sun Tzu, but it works. There are three ways to counter this. 1) Have bigger/better/more numerous shooty/stompy/hitty stuff. 2) Kill the leader and let them bash each other instead of you. 3) Hope/make them go fight someone else. None of this requires much in the way of tactics, so his problem doesn't make much sense. Until we remember that the Necron personality flaws are due to glitches in their programming and as such don't need any rational explanation, they are just broken.

[Baron Spikey]

The Imotehk fluff does state that he achieves victories against Orks, just not the crushing ones he intends.

The Stormlord spins his plans relying completely on logic, a concept the Orks have little time for- so whilst it's possible to occasionally guess what the greenskins will do the inherent anarchy of their nature means you can't rely on that all the time.

[wittdooley]

The Imotehk fluff does state that he achieves victories against Orks, just not the crushing ones he intends.

The Stormlord spins his plans relying completely on logic, a concept the Orks have little time for- so whilst it's possible to occasionally guess what the greenskins will do the inherent anarchy of their nature means you can't rely on that all the time.

This. Personally my fave lord fluff at this point is nemesor zahndrekh & obyron.

[DarkLink]

This is a game in which the fluff pretty much consists of "[unit] is teh awezomez, and is best at [tactics/fighting/everything]". No wonder it doesn't make much sense sometimes.

[Freefall945]

According to the entry (infront of me now), Imotehk "rarely wins lasting victories over the rabblesome greenskins" because they are able to "abandon all logic" as easily as breathing.

I hear the response, that he's just not as good at outmaneuvering them because they don't have complex strategies to exploit, but I feel that's insufficient.

It is very difficult to say that ork tactics are "illogical" since put-sword-in-man is pretty much the zenith of logic in warfare. To paraphrase Brian Klevinger,

...An opponent too shot and chopped to move is an opponent defeated.

Orks aren't "illogical" on the battlefield, they're just dopey. They might be illogical if you were to engage them in a philosophical throwdown, but when you're seeing whose little mans can kill the other little mans, ork plans are perfectly logical; they're just not complex. And easier to predict.

And they DO use tactics. In fact, part of the Ork's unique threat is that they possess a -genetic disposition- toward small unit tactics without needing to be drilled or taught. They understand ambushes, flanking, overwhelming force, and the crown jewel of strategy, -morale-. They know these things the same way they know how to shoot guns, how to do what they're told, how to build trukks - instinctively, by the terrible genetic legacy written into their fabric by the very beings who set out to destroy the Necrons.

Ultimately, it's not a "huge" deal. It's not a seismic lore-fail, I just thought it was funny, and kinda weird.

Oh, and Eldargal, unless you want your blood boiled in your veins, don't read the Necron codex.

Necrons are invading the webway now. Somewhere in a corner of the Eye of Terror, Ahriman rips out his hair.

[rws]

Perhaps you are seeing it the wrong way: on the battlefield the Orks may be straightforward hack, slash and shoot everything not green, but on a campaign wide scale Orks are much less predictable: they don't pick their battles logically, but in a more instinctive manner.

Though it is possible to lure Orks somewhere if you're sneaky enough, this doesn't mean it's a sure way of dealing with the Orks, Especially if you take into account that the Boss steers his host of Orks with somewhat of a rather odd plan, while most Orks just want to be where the fighting is. This creates a tension in directionality, and it is fairly unpredictable where the Ork host will end up.

I think this is more in line with Wards intentions, especially if you take into account that the Stormlord is a tactical genius on a campaign wide scale.

[Freefall945]

I hear you, RWS, and that's a fair enough thought; I still feel it's insufficient. Instinct -is- a kind of logic; moreso in the ork's case than anyone elses. There's no reason that it should be harder to predict that an Eldar Autarch will say "We must destroy the human forge world of Clavian 9. With it, their arms supply will dry up - and with it, their river of success."... than to predict Warboss Necksnappa should say "We's goin' to the humie mech world down there to take all them gunz an' gubbinz and wotnotz'!"

In order for Imotehk's "illogical foe" hypothesis to be valid, an ork WAAAUGH! would be just as likely to plow into an isolates shine-moon staffed by two priests and nine gilt servitor-slaves as they would into its neighbour, the forge world previously mentioned.

To be frank, Orks are pictured primarily as making up for their intellectual deficiencies with numbers and enthusiasm, but never as a random, illogical force in the universe. I call bull.

Additional, the Stormlord is portrayed both as a Strategic genius in the macro-scale and a small engagement paragon. The fluff story listed for him is a step-by-step dismantling of his foes in individual engagements, particularly of the farseer I've previously ragged on.

[wittdooley]

Just wanted to point out that this has turned into a discussion on how much the Orks use logic and critical reasoning. Just saying.

[Freefall945]

Indeed. That was the core of my original post!

[DrLove42]

Maybe its more technical than that. The Necs are machines now...and if theres one thing that computers can't predict at all well its Chaos. Not as in blood-for-the-blood-god Chaos but butterfly-flaps-its-wing-causes-hurricane chaos. With Orks as unpredictable and frankly insane as they are its hard for a digtial system to analyse all the data

[Freefall945]

That's just my point. It's -not- chaos, it's just -raw-. Orks are techno-barbarians in space, but typically - and by that I mean as typically as any other force, at least - they make predictable strategic decisions. Seize the enemy's supply world to bolster your own army. Annihilate the enemy vanguard to terrify the rest of the enemy army. Throw stikkbombs to suppress then charge in the aftermath. These are things we can rightfully expect orks to do!

Does anyone really think that if you slap an ork boy in the face, he'll say "herp derp" and bonk himself on the head with his choppa? Of course not. There is one response to this. He will cut you in half. Ork tactics are not random, they are just simpler, which should make them easier to predict.

Any attempt to hang this on being a machine glitch or a limitation of necron hardware supposes lore we are not given, at which point we might also suspect he is under a voodoo curse or secretly likes orks and wants them to win. We are supposing things - but we do so in our own attempt to rationalize shortcomings in the lore. And that's all this thread was about - trying to suggest and defend (and I think I've been successful) that it is an amusing, if small, deficiency in the lore.

Well, at least they're not drenching themselves in the holy blood of Sororitas.

[DrWobbles]

After reading the codex i have to agree with all the ward haters. Although he writes the rules well enough he really should stay away from the background.

First of all, a lot of fluff does not correlate well with the game itself. for instance, Imotekh is supposed to be this bad *** in close combat, never losing a challenge, ***** slapping Helbrecht, yet he just isn't that great in game. he doesn't even carry a power weapon. Again with Nemesor Zahndrekh, fluff describes him carrying a warscythe yet he's listed with a staff of light. The fluff doesn't add up.

My biggest irritation is how ward turned these hateful machines into arrogant, pompous, snobs. The description of necron society makes me groan. Its like he's describing the pricks at a country club.

sigh...

[wittdooley]

Let me fix this for you:



My biggest irritation is how ward turned these dull flavorless machines into an army with some actualized, interesting background fluff

Yes, Imotekh isn't that badass, with his 2=/3++, ability to revive himself with additional wounds, his CC attacks that reroll both to hit and to wound, and his JoWW-esque, Str6 AP1 weapon. Oh wait, he's also Str5 T 5. Sorry P-Fists... But you're right, he is kind of a chump.

Don't know where you got the impression Zahndrekh carries a warscythe. The blurb on him says explicitly that he "seldom lowers himself to personal combat." Further, the picture shows him pretty clearly carrying a staff.

Keep grasping at straws. This is a really solid codex.

[Freefall945]

Imotehk's pretty hardcore on the tabletop but he can't compete with your run-of-the-mill iron-halo force commander who will power fist him into the dirt until he stays there. That said, if Matt Ward WANTED him to be a brutal close combat thug they'd have to pay more than the two hundred and change points that players do for him.

In game rules terms, he's solid gold. Seize the initiative on a 4+ (against everyone who isn't orks) and his Night-Fight storm, coupled with the Necron's standard 24 inch engagement range, are significant enough to make eyes pop. He can tear up plenty of characters, but we can't -all- be Lord Draigo now, can we?

[wittdooley]

Is he that afraid of PFists?

1. Hes T5, so they won't insta-gib him.
2. He's I2, so he's attacking before them
3. He has a 3++

I just don't see him being super afraid of PFists... To be fair, I'm hardly the preeminent 40k tactician...

Plus, like you said, he's kinda cheap. All our marinie weenies with stat lines similar to him (aside from Lysander) typically clock in at 275 points...

Not to mention Necrons have access to that BA command barge...

[eldargal]

Having read the fluff I think even the Eldar thing is handled well. Farseer Whatsisname didn't just rish blindly into danger, he overlooked signs of ambush in the runes through his arrogance. Perfectly understandable, Eldar are arrogant.

I don't mind the Dolmen Gates either. Rare, unstable, unreliable portals into the webway against which the webway actually seems to seal itself against given time? That is just nifty and more than tolerable for the litlte insight into the webway.

[Freefall945]

Witt;

I use the powerfist example because that's your classic high-strength character killer. The Vanilla Commander in question is not going to instant death Imotehk, but he will hit him on a three, and wound him on a two. Imotehk's save is nice but would be a saving grace for this thug-cred only if he had so much as a "rending" option with which to reply.

In all honesty, what's more likely is that the Vanilla Commander and whomever he was with would crumple Imotehk's unit (unless he sprang for Lychguard) and run the Stormlord down as his galaxy crushing logic circuits determine the best thing to do against a superior enemy with a power weapon is to turn one hundred and eighty degrees and walk slowly.


Eldargal, I suppose I misjudged your reaction. Very well then! Each to their own. Personally, I do not at all care for the Damnos webway seizure from which the Necrons launch attacks on nearby worlds. It used to be the Eldar's hidehole, and was en-coolened by the presence of the Dark Kin. Ahriman scratching at the walls made me nervous, but I appreciated his gusto.

Then all of a sudden Necrons are in, staring into my baffled, pointy eared face with their blank robo stare as if to say "oh, didn't you know? We're Older, Better at Tech, and Superior at Predicting things than you. Also, we figured we'd crash on your webway couch for a few nights. Thanks bro."

But I suppose I may simply be hatin'. There's less "Boo Eldar" in this Necron Codex than the Last. And I death or gloried a Monolith for the first time in that inaugural match, so I can't be too mad.

[DrWobbles]

Don't know where you got the impression Zahndrekh carries a warscythe.

Grasping at straws huh?

Page 21, last paragraph, "...Zahndrek raised his warscythe in salute to the doomed foe."

Why don't you check your baditude and read the book.

[eldargal]

Well I can appreciate your feelings on it, but I felt their rarity, unreliability and time-sensitive nature diminished their threat to the webway, while the concept of the webway actively sealing itself against such threats was fascinating. A few Necron Phaerons having unreliable, limited access to a limited portion of the Webway doesn't really diminish it for me.

[wittdooley]

Grasping at straws huh?

Page 21, last paragraph, "...Zahndrek raised his warscythe in salute to the doomed foe."

Why don't you check your baditude and read the book.

Silly me, I figured you'd be looking at his ACTUAL CODEX ENTRY than a single sentence in one of the stories contained within. The fluff adds up plenty. Oh, he's actually going into battle--which he normally doesnt do. Let's take a warscythe instead. Simple. Jesus.

People really like to cling to single sentences, That's all the "Ward-haters" seem to be able to do.

@Free -- Fair point. I don't think he's a CC monster or anything, but for 225 I think he's very worth his points. I simply think Wobbles ascertation that he isn't that great is foolish. Rerolls, Reanimation, Phylactery, and 3++ mean you're quite above average in CC.

[Thornblood]

In games I like to feel I have some pretty kunnin tactics when I paly with my marines and orks. However, when playing with orks I do sometimes stuff in the tactics because other things seem more fun and more orky to do. If someone was expecting my clever tactics they could easily foil me but the- "it would make sense to stay out of combat and shoot" dilemma gets to me alot when i see Orks as needing combat.

In the old dex did the old ones not create the kork to defeat the necrontyr and/or C'tan though? Is this a half-thought out way of keeping that on?

I can imagine a Necron Overlord looking at a map and finding the strategically best places Orks could have an encampment or have fortified, only for them to turn up to discover the orks are over there camped around that big rock that looks a bit like a skull. Or sending in units to assault Flash Gitz because they are a shooty unit only to discover that actually, they are better at combat.

Maybe it would be logical for the orks to wait for re-enforcement's that are on route. However orks dont have to much patience and catch the necrons unprepared. Maybe they had sent the bulk of there force out to massacre the ork re-enforcements and the orks got bored of waiting and hit the tombs and the centre of the necron power?

Im guessing it means that Imotekh doesnt understand psychology. Battle tactics need hard discipline and logical rules to pull off. Most races use their intellect to make war effectively, but not orks. Maybe he can only ever read about emotions, instincts, fear, love, addictions, and never quite understand them. Maybe he cant understand that what drives orks is fighting (anyone including each other), owning stuff (any stuff useless or useful) and being competitive rather than a more logical things like the accumulation of information, resources, and advancement in the galaxy. An Ork Warlord might burn one world, enslave another and fortify another based on his mood rather than which would be best for which and probably destroy more tactical assets from his choices than he gleans.

[DrWobbles]

Silly me, I figured you'd be looking at his ACTUAL CODEX ENTRY

We are talking about fluff right? I have no problem with the rules of the codex.

Look, when i'm reading a story and come across a line like, "...the Tomb Blades lanced forward, their tesla cannons sending great bolts of eldritch lightning arcing through the ranks..." (pg. 63) I get excited thinking tomb blades can take tesla cannons. but, no. they're equipped with tesla carbines.

Then I'm reading about Zahndrekh, "He disdains the use of Deathmarks..." (pg. 60) because it is dishonorable using those tactics. But then he has a special rule, Phased Reinforcements, that lets other units utilize those exact same tactics that he eschews.

Yes, Imotekh is worth his points. no one is arguing that issue. His background story claims he's never been defeated in close combat. But when a standard Necron Overlord can be upgraded to a far superior close combat monster, it doesn't make sense in my brain. It doesn't add up.

I like the overall direction they went with the background but i think Ward missed the mark. If you were to read the entire book perhaps you would feel the same way.

[Anggul]

To be fair, Ward isn't the only guy to write backstory where a Farseer apparently forgets that he can see the future. As Eldargal said though, it doesn't make it any less annoying. Farseers aren't reckless and hasty at all, they'll sit in one place for immense lengths of time, often never being seen by other Eldar for ages, just considering a few courses of action. The fact that he rushed into it (not to mention the Monolith thing) was completely against the very purpose of a Farseer's existence. That's a Dracon's mistake, not a Farseer's.

Also, apparently the 'Dolmen gates' were opened by a C'tan.
...a C'tan... whose very species find the warp to be a deadly anathema.
Also the brief box-out about supposed 'planetary null fields' which stop psychic powers. The entire point in the war was that Necrons and C'tan, despite their immense technology/power respectively, couldn't deal with warp-power, and yet apparently they have planet-sized anti-psyker shields. Derp.

Apart from most of the stuff which involves the Eldar (Bizzarely), the fluff is actually pretty good considering his previous abominations. I don't like how the Crypteks apparently have the ability to see into the future by looking at the stars, it seems far too 'superstitious tribal shaman' for the Necrons, and sort of encroaches on Farseer territory, but as I said, other than these things it's good stuff. Here's hoping Mr. Ward continues in this direction.

[Lord Anubis]

...a C'tan... whose very species find the warp to be a deadly anathema.

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. :)

(not just you, Anggul, but everyone else who seizes the word "anathema" as the reason why C'Tan and Necrons can never have anything whatsoever to do with the Warp... ;) )

I figured the Ork thing was a possible faint throwback to the idea that the (Kr)Orks were one of the last creations of the Old Ones to fight the Necrons. That it's just some innate element about Orks that make them troublesome for Necrons to predict (which a computer mind would probably label "illogic").

Nothing really to back it up. It just came to mind and seemed to feel right with the existing fluff.