Interesting point of view on 40K

[MaltonNecromancer]

I'm a huge fan of Ben "Yahtzee" Croshaw's "Zero Punctuation". I think that despite his hatred, he has some excellent points about the nature of gaming. His "Extra Punctuation" articles in particular are superb.

Now, yesterday, I discovered http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/columns/extra-punctuation/9153-Extra-Punctuation-Hating-Warhammer-40k-and-Space-Marine and was quite fascinated by it.

Now, I imagine the first thing almost everyone here will do is knee-jerk and go "BAAAAAWWW!!! HE'S SOOO WRONG!!!". I certainly know my first reaction was to get really defensive. However, the man himself acknowledges he's never played 40K because it has no appeal to him personally, and that's entirely fair enough.

The thing that drew me was that this is how a lot of people "on the outside" see 40K. Now, I've always believed that 40K was a satire, not intended to be taken seriously (which is why I personally can't read Black Library books - apart from Ciaphas Cain, none of them seem to get that 40K is a pretty ridiculous setting, all things considered). However, I think Croshaw is right, and that a large part of the fan community does actually look at the 40K setting as something to be taken very seriously indeed - "the lust for battlefiled glory" taken seriously.

I think this article actually represents the first time I've seen a reasonably mainstream reviewer (yes, I know Yahtzee accentuates the negative as his schtick, but still, what he says usually has a modicum of truth to it) look at 40K and explain why they didn't like it. Not because it's geeky or nerdy, or "look at you social rejects with your toy soldiers", but because they have a fundamental objection to the source material itself.

I largely regard 40K as an aesthetic rather than caring about the actual stories about the game, but I know a lot of people here are different.

I just wondered what people's reactions here were - I think it shines an interesting (if unpalatable) light on the game I (and probably you) love.

[Denzark]

Malty, If recall correctly you teach English. For you to be a good English teacher you would have to dislike most of what comes out from the Black Library from a technical viewpoint - although if you look at the books as pure entertainment and escapism then there is a lot to find.

As to the chappy himself, I would disagree this is an interesting viewpoint on how the general 'outside' views this. I think you would need to stop Mrs Bloggins of 34, Plumrose Drive, Little ****tington in the Home Counties and ask her.

This fella is an Intuhnet Personalitee with his own blog, and confesses to 'little yellow five minute spittlefests'. As such he is probably slanting this almost for reaction and I don't think is illustrative across the board.

[Deadlift]

I just read it, blokes a ****...nuff said really.

[MaltonNecromancer]

Malty, If recall correctly you teach English. For you to be a good English teacher you would have to dislike most of what comes out from the Black Library from a technical viewpoint - although if you look at the books as pure entertainment and escapism then there is a lot to find

I do indeed, and you're quite right about not seeing past the purple prose. I have tried to like them from an entertainment viewpoint, but even then I can't; I just don't find them remotely entertaining on any level. hey're just joyless war porn where I literally hate every single character. I know people here live and breath them (and saying I don't like them is basically Asking For It; I'm sure by the time I've posted this, someone will be defending Dan Abnett) but they've always struck me as "Twilight" for the 40K crowd: if you like them, no explanation of why is necessary; if you don't no explanation will suffice. I think we're going to have to agree that we have differing opinions :) (If you're not Denzark and like BL, please don't think I'm having a go at your choice of reading. I'm not; they're just not for me, in the same way as something like "Twilight" isn't for you.)

As for escapism, I'd rather be reading Warren Ellis ("Planetary", "Fell", "Transmetropolitan", "Black Summer", "Supergod"), Alan Moore ("The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen", "Voice of the Fire", "Neonomicon"), Neil Gaiman ("Sandman", "Coraline", "American Gods", "Smoke and Mirrors"), Bryan K. Vaughan ("Runaways", "Y: The Last Man", "Mystique", "Ex Machina"), Mark Waid ("Empire", "Irredeemable"), Terry Moore ("Strangers in Paradise"), Gail Simone ("Secret Six"), or Grant Morrison ("We3", "The Filth", "The Invisibles", "New X Men"). Those are my "switch brain off and enjoy" reads.

Back on-topic, I don't think he's stating it for a reaction - it's really not that hard to get a massive reaction from 40K fans (Just try saying the words "female Space Marines"; I guarantee there will be people who simply have to comment on them; it's like it's genetically encoded into them). I do actually think some of his points have merit... just not the way he does.

Basically, he argues 40K is juvenile, and he clearly feels the setting causes Darkness Induced Audience Apathy:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DarknessInducedAudienceApathy

I would argue that this is completely true, but only if you view 40K as serious. As I say, I've always seen 40K as pure black comedy ("Please... no more kicking!"), but I also feel that it has moved further and further away from that, and into the territory Croshaw sees.

I would argue that the TV Tropes analysis makes some good points about 40K that aren't often considered (scroll down to the "Actually has something consistent to say about Utilitarianism", which is an excellent dissection of the elements of the 40K background I love).

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Analysis/Warhammer40000

[Slug]

I can see where he is coming from but he has one trouble in many of his points, had he read 40k lore he would see that what he says makes no sense in game. An example would be when he talks about how it would be more efficient to just put guardsmen in power armor and then when the war is over they can do civilian jobs, yet had he read the lore he would have realised that space marines when formed into legions and supported by crusade fleets were incredibly effective and had it not been for the heresy then they would have conquered the galaxy.
This is always the problem with writing about something you haven't researched thoroughly, you will almost always appear ignorant to those who have. I think I can see where he is coming form however, as Space Marine, though I haven't played it personally ironic eh, wouldn't surprise me to be full of the stereotypical space marines who are unfeeling about everything they do. This is not a base you can build a detailed and mature background on, however at the same time he needed someone to explain to him that much of the background shows different takes on them, chaos marines a good example of space marines who let their emotions rage unchecked.

[Hive Mind]

Hey now... Spehss Mahreens are, like, super srs bsnss.

MaltonNecromancer, please resist the urge to break out ol' red and correct that. FWIW, I agree with you about Black Library books. 'Literary abortions' I believe was the phrase I used a few days ago.

[MaltonNecromancer]

MaltonNecromancer, please resist the urge to break out ol' red and correct that.

Now, here's a little teacher secret, aside from the fact we don't live in our classrooms (always surprises the kids so much when they see me in town. Small reference pools, eh?). Here's the thing, though. Do you know what's more boring than marking people's books?

NOTHING!


I'm off the clock, and so you cannot fathom the immensity of the frak I do not give. You want to spell badly, knock yourself out.

Oh, and I did giggle at "literary abortions". :)

[Denzark]

The man paraphrases 'there is only war' - misses out the whole phrase etc. I really think he is doing some of this for comic effect. I'm sure people in the 41st millenium would take the time to go to the bog. And as well as excrete, breathe, move, and all the other stuff living creatres must do that I can't remember from biology.

Actually his comments are only a useful dig at those who take this 100% seriously - don't know what is honestly worse, those who get pleasure from 100% immersion in the game or this chap having a good old nitpick at them.

Funnily enough, whilst I take none of this particularly seriously, I tend to see the BL, the HH series particularly, as reference of the canon - I ignore the crap dialogue and sometime convoluted plot - at the end, my knowledge of canon has increased, sometimes fleshing out old stories (such as the backstory hinted at in the original space marine rules), or filling gaps. There are of course exceptions such as the SW 'no wolves on Fenris etc.' Cos that was quite spooky and good.

Dan Abnett is good (by which I mean entertaining not literary), I'm surprised that you wouldn't like Eisenhorn trilogy.

Roger your comments on marking btw - Mrs Denzark is a science teacher.

[MaltonNecromancer]

I tend to see the BL, the HH series particularly, as reference of the canon

It would be interesting to see the Horus Heresy done, instead of as a series of novels, rather as a Big Book of Myths; you know, like those ones you get of Greek myths and legends. Get someone like Neil Gaiman to write it, and that'd be pretty damn sweet. 40K works better as myth than magic realism in my head.

[Slug]

Mrs Denzark is a science teacher.

But science is fun, things get blown up. :D

[Denzark]

She won't ever acquiesce to my repeated requests to bring me back magnesium or phosphorous...

[TheBitzBarn]

First off the fluff is what makes the game interesting and enjoyable. You can debate and discuss outside of the actual game but it never changes my world view. I do not lust for battlefield glory. I enjoy it as a hobby and not escapism fantasy. I do not need to escape real life and I think to may people do escape and they need to pay more attention.

This guy is a console gamer so I have a low bar for his opinion at all. You think this represent what the outside world thinks of 40K players I disagree. I think my wife does a better job and when we were dating and I told her about the hobby , first question she asked"do you have a costume and dress up to play?" That is a better opinion and look at what outsiders thins than this garbage article. I do not see how any one could want to read his opinions they are weak and so negative.

Just my 2cents

[Emerald Rose Widow]

I am going to be honest, I have more than once referred to 40k (to those with no experience with it) as chess on crack where you paint the pieces yourself. I always thought the description was rather apt, and Yatzee is right in one respect, the setting is really depressing and dark, but we love it that way.

[eldargal]

The short version of that article:

Warhammer 40,000 doesn't appeal to me, I know nothing about it and have made little effort to educate myself but I'm so full of myself I'm going to write two pages about it anyway.

[warpcrafter]

I am going to be honest, I have more than once referred to 40k (to those with no experience with it) as chess on crack where you paint the pieces yourself. I always thought the description was rather apt, and Yatzee is right in one respect, the setting is really depressing and dark, but we love it that way.

My favorite way of describing 40K is rock, paper scissors where you decide which you are going to throw, and then three sets of dice rolls later, you discover which one your fingers actually formed, and whether or not it had the desired effect.

Aside from that, I think certain people in this thread, and that insufferable hipster blogger who is typical of his sourpuss stick-up-the-butt kind take themselves and their opinions waaay too seriously. I play Orks and Dark Eldar. I love their fluff, and most of their rules, and actually enjoy painting my armies.

I guess some people just don't want themselves or anyone else to be happy...

[Emerald Rose Widow]

My favorite way of describing 40K is rock, paper scissors where you decide which you are going to throw, and then three sets of dice rolls later, you discover which one your fingers actually formed, and whether or not it had the desired effect.

Aside from that, I think certain people in this thread, and that insufferable hipster blogger who is typical of his sourpuss stick-up-the-butt kind take themselves and their opinions waaay too seriously. I play Orks and Dark Eldar. I love their fluff, and most of their rules, and actually enjoy painting my armies.

I guess some people just don't want themselves or anyone else to be happy...

Well at least he admited his writings about it are just crap to be witty and fun, its what he does. I actually rather like Yahtzee, and find his comedy to be rather fun, because your not supposed to take him seriously.

[wittdooley]

If you want to read intelligent writing about video games, go toGrantland (http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/7146482/batman-arkham-city) and read Tom Bissell. This scrabble guy is just another self-important nerd with too big a voice thanks to the Internet.

[Spider-pope]

The short version of that article:

Pretty much my read of it as well. Having glanced through the rest of the site he comes across as someone desperately trying to be Charlie Brooker but with none of the wit or intelligence to back it up.
But then articles like this are written precisely to irritate a fanbase, so we all go have a look, some of us kick off, they get laugh at the "nerds" and they get the benefit of a few hundred extra page hits.

As for the thread title, change it to "An ignorant point of view on 40k" and it'd be a bit more accurate.

[Wildeybeast]

I think people are being a tad harsh on him. Yes, he is criticisng something he knows absolutely nothing about, but then that is what the internet is for. :D
He has two main points:
a) he prefered D&D because he liked the creative story telling element rather than the collecting and winning/losing focus that a game of 40k inevitably has.
b) He thinks that the 40k setting is far too depressing and is born out of a generation of people who haven't experienced war and so have to glamorise it.

The first point is simply the way he liked to game as a kid and you can't criticse him for that. The second is open to debate, but to be fair he doesn't restrict it just to 40k, he also mentions Gears of War as doing similar and you could apply it to the whole Call of Duty generation.

Warhammer 40K always seemed to me like some massively overdesigned elaboration of chess with an incredibly depressing setting. Which existed primarily to remove all the money from your bank account and replace it with plastic figurines. But you could paint them! For days on end! I think most of us will admit that this thought has crossed our minds at some stage of our gaming lives.

[Spider-pope]

b) He thinks that the 40k setting is far too depressing and is born out of a generation of people who haven't experienced war and so have to glamorise it.

The first point is simply the way he liked to game as a kid and you can't criticse him for that. The second is open to debate, but to be fair he doesn't restrict it just to 40k, he also mentions Gears of War as doing similar and you could apply it to the whole Call of Duty generation.


Except his second point is absolute drivel. For a start no recent generation has been completely sheltered from war. The Falklands War was still fresh in peoples memories when 40k was first being created. We've had near constant warfare in the world for the last few decades. The countries involved and the locations may change but we have all seen the images on the news. To say that anyone is ignorant of the realities of war is stupid in the extreme.

And to claim that its new habit to create fiction around warfare is also complete nonsense and shows a massive ignorance of not only 40k but the fiction written throughout the past few centuries.

Secondly one does not have to experience a situation in order to write about it, and at no point does 40k actually glamorise the situation the galaxy is in. The entire point is that it is horrific, it's the worst case scenario for humanities future. No one in their right mind would ever want 40k to come to pass nor live there.

His entire article was an excuse for a rant against a product that he knew nothing about, with a few pseudo-intellectual spoutings stuck in to try to legitimise it.

[Spider-pope]

Double post grr.

[MaltonNecromancer]

We've had near constant warfare in the world for the last few decades.

There's a world of difference between "being at war" and "the UK losing nearly a million men", and I think that's the point he's making.

The war in Iraq is bad for those out there, but hardly affects anyone who lacks connections to the armed forces. The UK has suffered 385 fatalities, as well as 1,808 wounded in action in ten years of war so far.

By comparison, in World War 1, the UK lost 886,939 men in, with 1,663,435 wounded in four years.

Yes, we're at war, but not remotely in the same way. That's the point he's making. This generation likes to think it knows war, but it really doesn't. Not in remotely the same way. After world war one, only three villages had not lost someone. At my school, on Remembrance Day, the annual Reading of The Names takes fifteen minutes. Almost all of those brave boys died between 1914 and 1919, and thankfully no names have been added since 1950.


Secondly one does not have to experience a situation in order to write about it, and at no point does 40k actually glamorise the situation the galaxy is in. The entire point is that it is horrific, it's the worst case scenario for humanities future. No one in their right mind would ever want 40k to come to pass nor live there.

Totally agree here. Although, it pays to remember that http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DoNotDoThisCoolThing

[andrewm9]

I think its telling that in the 41st millenium that the Imperium has more armed forces than there are people alive on the planet currently today. There are whole worlds whose only precipitation is acid rain becuase the atmosphere has become so toxic and ships of the line have crew whose population exceeds that of a small country. The average human's life is worthless in the eyes of the Imperium as humanity is a renewable resource.