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Jearden
09-10-2009, 08:11 AM
So, yesterday I showed up at my local GW store almost before the employees did, couldnt wait to get my hands on the new Codex and have a look at what I am going to be getting for my Wolves.

So here is what I think after a look at the Codex:

Like the front page said, you get Grey Hunters at standard CSM cost with the same set of equipment. An option of a Meltagun for 5 points, and a 2nd one for free if you take 10 men in the squad. Only one plasma pistol and one power weapon (or fist) can be taken tho.

Blood Claws are pretty much exactly the same. They no longer get the 1 power weapon (or fist) for every 5 members of the pack tho. They get the exact same options as the Grey Hunters tho.

Lone Wolf is nice, but mostly for fluff, he is cheap but Im not sure Ill sink points into him unless Im just trying to fill out a list.

Scouts are still very nice. Pretty much the same, but the "Operate Behind Enemy Lines" has changed slightly. Its like Outflank, but on a 1 its from your left, on a 2 from you right, and on a 3 thru 6 you get to pick, including you opponets long table edge.

Finally jump pack, or Skyclaw Blood Claws, arent rediculously priced.

Wolf Guard are pretty much like before. Good stat lines for only 3 points more than the Grey Hunters and you can take ALL sort of options with them. Very nice. Basically for 48 points each you can have a Wolf Guard in Terminator Armor with 2 Wolf Claws.

The Thunderwolf Calvary are amazing. I can say Im not a big fan of the way it looks for a Space Marine to be riding a giant wolf, but thier stat lines for the cost makes them worth getting even if I dont like the way they look too much.

Long Fangs are basically the same, except they are slightly cheaper and you can get one more of them. They arent really that expensive, and are a great pick in my opinion.

No Lemun Russ, but the Land Raider options sort of make up for it. I was a HUGE fan of the Lemun Russ, so Im disappointed, but such is life.

The HQ choices are bascially the same. The Wolf Priest isnt the close combat beast he used to be, but gets the same abilities as the Chapalin. Rune Priests are finally real psykers with some very nice powers. Wolf Lord is really a bargin, and you can equip him to a rediculous level of gear of coarse you can only take 1 Saga with him like the other HQ picks, and I thought it would be 2 for the Lord. There is also the less expensive Wolf Guard Battleleader, which is like the Lord but 30 points cheaper for the lost of 1 Attack and 1 WS. One more side note. For every HQ slot you take, you can take 2 HQ choices. So if you use both of your HQ slots, you can have up to 4 HQ's on the table.

Now, the special characters:

Logan Grimnar is really nice. He lets you take Wolf Guard as a Troop choice. That means you can equip the Wolf Guard with Terminator Armor... so yeah, Terminators as a Troop choice. He can also once a turn impart a special rule to whatever troop he is attached to. One of those is Relentless. Attach him to a pack of Long Fangs and move your Heavy's across the board at will.

Ragnar Blackmane, still wicked in close combat. He and the unit he is with can take D3 addtional attacks on the charge. He also gets a 4+ invul save.

Canis is the Thunderwolf Rider... and wow, just wow. So many attacks in close combat, and he can choose to take one attack for every enemy in base to base with him. He is one of the 2 new characters that are simply amazing.

Arjac is the other. Thunderhammer that can be thrown prior the charge. 6" range, Strength 10, AP 1.... and gets plenty of attacks to boot. He is just rediculous. As a side note he is an upgradable Wolf Guard, but is expenise.

Bjorn the Fel-handed. Dreadnought with front armor 13, assault cannon (or plasma cannon for free) and plenty of close combat love. He is a HQ choice too. Means you can take him as a HQ, then 1 Ven Dread and 2 regular dreads for Elite choices. 4 Dreadnoughts in any army is scary, I dont care who you are. If he dies tho he becomes an objective for the Wolves, and all Wolves become Fearless.

Lukas the Trickster is a funny Bloodclaw. He is upgradable from any Bloodclaw in you army, very nice in close combat, and the potienal to go out with a bang if he is killed, he possibly takes everyone in base to base contact with him when he is removed from play.

Njal Stormcaller. All I can say is: OH... MY... GOD. He s expensive, 275 points. He is a bargin at that price. He is in Runic Terminator Armor, so 4+ invul and 2+ regular. Great stat line. He gets all 6 Wolf psyker powers, and can use 2 of them a turn. Not to meantion he gets this Lord of the Tempest special rule, which potentially can be devestating to the enemy. There is more Im forgetting, just as I said. He is worth every single point you spend on him.

Saga's basically give your HQ choice something for flare. They are nice, but not huge game changers.

Wolf Claws let you re-roll to hit, or to wound, you pick proir to the beginning of close combat.

There are some other things that I am forgetting. I played useing the codex last night, used Bjorn the Fel-handed... and Fel-handed a Chaos Space Marine player his rear end. I like it.

To sum up (and probly what I should have just said to begin with) its a very nice Codex. It brings Space Wolves into line, and makes them once again into the close combat Space Marine army they are supposed to be. Worth every point you spend on anything. Im excited and the sprue is amazing. Lots of VERY nice wolfy things on it.

Excited? Ya think?

What are other people's opinions that have looked at the Codex?

Kanaellars
09-10-2009, 09:24 AM
Saw the codex this morning.

I agree completely.

The artwork, the rules, the writing, EVERYTHING.

They hit the ball out of the park with this one. The book is amazing. The models are amazing.

Everything said above is true. The previous poster mentioned Logan giving rules to his squad. One is Relentless. The other choices are Fearless, Tank Hunters, or Favored Enemy.

This book is completely and totally amazing.

DoctorEvil
09-10-2009, 10:18 AM
I'll probably be able to look though this evening if my LGS got a preview copy, but I just have to ask, is there any mention of the 13th company in the book?

I have a small 13th company army, and I'm hoping I can figure out a way to upgrade to the new Codex, but keep the same "feel" to the army.

Kanaellars
09-10-2009, 11:01 AM
sadly, 13th company is the 1 thing that is missing.

You can use wolf packs as fast attack, and MANY units can take mark of the wulfen, but not in wulfen squads...


In short, no more 13th company except in fluff.

That said though, if you used the... forget the name, the 13th company still in armor, not wulfen... then yea, you can do that still.

Grey Hunters with CCW BP and Bolter with Fenrisian wolf packs, Thunderwolf Rider Cavalry, and lead by a Priest I think would be pretty decent as 13th company myself.

Emperorsmercy
09-10-2009, 11:13 AM
what are the models like?

energongoodie
09-10-2009, 11:16 AM
Haven't seen the codex yet. Can't wait.
Are their models for the Space Wolf cavalry in the codex or is it just Canis that is shown?
Are the old Ragnar and Grimnar models shown or are we getting new ones?
Thanks

Kanaellars
09-10-2009, 11:34 AM
Only Canis is shown, so Wolf Cav might be second wave. Ragnar, Logan, and Ulrick all have the old models shown, so might be second wave as well.

New kits SEEM to be:

Space Wolves Box (makes 10 Blood Claws OR 10 Grey Hunters OR 10 Wolf Guard in Power Armor)

Wolf Guard Box (makes 5 Wolf Guard Terminators)

Canis Wolfborn (Mounted Wolf Rider)

Njal Stormcaller

Trickster Blood Claw (keep forgetting his name).



In other notes, I dont think there are any plans to release Long Fangs or Skyclaws.

Devestator Squad + Wolves Box = Long Fangs

Assault Marines + Wolves Box = Sky Claws

Duke
09-10-2009, 11:56 AM
I am very excited for this codex, not just because SW deserve the new dex, but what it means for my Blood Angels who are set to get a new dex in 2010.

Duke

Kanaellars
09-10-2009, 12:26 PM
Oh, and as far as what the models are like....

WOW

The Power Armor and Terminators are AMAZING.

Completely shockingly good.

Fantastic details.

I cant say it enough, amazing.

Kanaellars
09-10-2009, 12:35 PM
Oh, and just for a bit more information....

The Space Wolves Power Armor Sprue.

We THINK you get 2 of them in a box.

The sprue has (I think, if i counted right)

5 Legs
6 Torso fronts
5 torso backs
1 torso back with pelt
5 backpacks
28 heads (yes TWENTY EIGHT!!!!! I think 7 armoured the rest not!)
4 Chainswords
4 Bolt Pistols
4 Plasma Pistols
4 Bolters
2 Plasma guns
2 Wolf Claws
1 Frost Blade
1 Power Axe
1 Thunder Hammer
1 Storm Shield
1 Storm Bolter
1 Wolf Banner

and LOADS and LOADS of Wolf Bits, details, etc

Jearden
09-10-2009, 01:03 PM
Lukas the Trickerster is the Bloodclaw upgrade. For 140 points you upgrade one Bloodclaw to this guy. He, and everyone with him cannot use a Leadership of higher than 8. In exchange you get WS and BS 5, a Wolf Claw and his special rules. Doppleganger Cloak, all hits directed at him must be rerolled. and The Last Laugh, he has a temporal bomb wired in place of his second heart, if his primary stop beating the bomb goes off and freezes him and the one who killed him in a stasis field. In game play terms, if you kill him in close combat, when he is removed from play, him and every model in base to base contact with him are removed from play.

Njal is still the most kick butt of all of them tho.

The models are vrey cool. I will be buying the Wolf Gaurd box with the Termie Wolves. Im curious to see if Bjorn the Fel-handed is going to get another model. Njal is a must have, and now I have a reason to buy Logan Grimnar.

This codex and all the art work is great. Pitch perfect for the Wolves, and it should make any future Space Marines excited about the possiblity of a release for thier Chapter. Sort of scares me tho, because rumor says that the Tyranids are next.

Sarpedon
09-11-2009, 11:12 PM
to completely fair im going to play the devils advocate.

I agree with everyone when i say the artwork and the models are absolutely some of the best i've every seen from games work shop.

Rule wise, in my opinion this book is GARBAGE. yes you heard me GARBAGE. Everyone who is saying "i love this book" "i think this is the best thing since sliced bread!" is obviously a space wolf player. I can only question the sanity of Games Workshop for making an army with better troops than chaos for less cost than a NORMAL space marine, making uber generic hq choices for SLIGHTLY more expensive cost than again a normal marine commander, i also again ave to ask for justification for the Long Fangs being far cheaper than before, dont even have to purchase a leader to gain the fire control and can buy lascannons for a little over half the price of a normal space marine devestator squad. These bonuses coming with little to no downside (10 guys in a rhino is SO much of a downside..)

I wont deny that the army is going to power and magnificent, but i feel that the point costs are no where near justfied and i will likely end up boycotting the army after i've had the chance to play against it. There is no reason to play a normal marine anymore as the Space Wolfs (Apparently Gods gift to the game) can do just about everything better and for less points.

Drew da Destroya
09-11-2009, 11:51 PM
It's the end of the world as we know it.
It's the end of the world as we know it.
It's the end of the world as we know it and I feel fine.

Love, REM.

Squee
09-12-2009, 12:00 AM
I love this codex, and NO I do not play the wolves.
In fact my most regular opponent heads the wolves.
I'm looking forward to learning to best them.
However, as a guilty confession, I may pick them up as a "side" army. ;)

EmperorEternalXIX
09-12-2009, 12:11 AM
to completely fair im going to play the devils advocate.

I agree with everyone when i say the artwork and the models are absolutely some of the best i've every seen from games work shop.

Rule wise, in my opinion this book is GARBAGE. yes you heard me GARBAGE. Everyone who is saying "i love this book" "i think this is the best thing since sliced bread!" is obviously a space wolf player. I can only question the sanity of Games Workshop for making an army with better troops than chaos for less cost than a NORMAL space marine, making uber generic hq choices for SLIGHTLY more expensive cost than again a normal marine commander, i also again ave to ask for justification for the Long Fangs being far cheaper than before, dont even have to purchase a leader to gain the fire control and can buy lascannons for a little over half the price of a normal space marine devestator squad. These bonuses coming with little to no downside (10 guys in a rhino is SO much of a downside..)

I wont deny that the army is going to power and magnificent, but i feel that the point costs are no where near justfied and i will likely end up boycotting the army after i've had the chance to play against it. There is no reason to play a normal marine anymore as the Space Wolfs (Apparently Gods gift to the game) can do just about everything better and for less points.

I actually have to agree, this book is no doubt going to be the most cheddar of cheeses. What makes me angry is that they are apparently so much better than the normal space marines. I don't understand the logic.

What bothers me is I can foresee a lot of Chaos players deciding to use this book to represent their armies, as well as seeing a lot of marine players using it for their forces.

There is literally no point to using any other Marine codex at this point. This list would more adequately represent many different types of Space Marine chapters. For example...the Wolf Scouts have that behind enemy lines rule...but yet the Raven Guard, reputed for its stealth, has nothing of the sort. I feel that this sort of comparison will really bother many players and if they are anything like me, they will no doubt feel slightest.

I hope you are all ready for a retarded influx of Njal Stormcaller lists...

I guess the main thing that annoys me is that every character in the book is such a pwnfest. GW did a good job all around on this but some of these guys are just so many miles better than their counterparts in other MEQ armies, it is really kind of a slap in the face to the rest of us faithful SM players. What did the Wolves do to deserve this treatment over, say, the Blood Angels? Why is every Space Wolf SC seem the equal of Marneus Calgar and has more useful powers than Ahriman?

I am glad they are so good, I just don't understand why they decided that my marines need a points hike because they can choose to fall back and then they go and give all of these guys such insane stuff for less points. Totally unfair and illogical, in my opinion.

entendre_entendre
09-12-2009, 12:57 AM
i read the codex today, it's cool, & fluffy, but completely open to abuse, more so than any other codex. the models (for the most part) look really awesome, but it's some of the rules that kill me :( . the saga that allows the character additional attacks equal to the # of enemies killed in the previous assault phase is just plain BS. a maxed-attack lord could get 6 A's in the first round (+1 form CA or charge), if they kill 6, they get +6 attacks next round for a total of 11!!!!!!!!!!!! :mad: what the hael? you can get more attacks than a daemon weapon and nothing bad happens to you? CREEP. the only thing that could get more attacks than that is a Khorne lord w/ a Bloodfeeder, and look how popular those are...
and yes, the the wolf nibble power does remove things from play, not ID = carnifex slayer :mad:
but you could take a fenrisian wolf army... and have it flee on turn 2 b/c they're Ld 5.
in closing, models = good overall, but the rules = atrocious, cheesefest, fromage winner, powergamer domain. i may pick up a sprue or 2 just for the parts, but I'm not playing this, as no one would play me!
also, i looked at the character page & the Rune priest & wolf priest are nearly identicle (same pose, diff weapons)

Kanaellars
09-12-2009, 02:35 AM
People can complain all day... in the end, this is the book we are getting.

On top of that, all the people who say "What did they do to deserve this".... try waiting through TWO editions of the Game Rules without an update. We have been 11 years in the waiting, I think its about time.

The book is amazing. For once, it really captures the personality of the Wolves with thier rules.

They are supposed to be amazing. As for asking why Wolves are better than the Ultra-Smurfs and thier dopplegangers, its because if you read the fluff, THEY ARE. They always have been. One on one, the Wolves will always win out. (Fine, I can concede the point that they should cost a little more to represent this, personally I would have said 20 pnts, not 15)

Sorry if I sound like a bit of a defensive fanboy.... but I guess in a way I am. Space Wolves players are some of the most loyal to thier army there are, and we have been dragged through the muck for years.

Hell, my army has been turned away from tourneys in the past on the grounds that Games Workshop no longer supported them because the rules were so out of date!

We are the only army to have our models pulled off the shelves BEFORE our re-release was announced. Our codex has been out of print for I think something like 2 or 3 years.

We have finally gotten something, and it is REALLY GOOD.... anyone who doesnt like that can shove it. We deserve this.

Squee
09-12-2009, 02:54 AM
I agree!
Here is an army that gets no love for too long,
and fluff-wise it's an amazing army,
and now all anyone wants to do is cry about it.
"It is just a big f-off to DA players"
Termi troops aren't that big of a deal.
"Its over powered."
Learn to beat it.
"The only reason you like it is because you play/will play it."
I lie it because it is well written, characterful, and chalenging.

Kanaellars
09-12-2009, 03:08 AM
I like it because we deserve it.

I like it because for the first time, the rules fit the armies fluff.

I like it because the book is beautifully written.

I like it because the artwork is amazing.

There are a dozen reasons why I like it.

This is an amazing book.

shadowvast
09-12-2009, 05:46 AM
Why oh Why does SOMEONE ALWAYS feel the need to *****, just because it isn't EXACTLY the way THEY want it?....For the love of dice people, give it time. EVERY codex comes out with the same cry of "ZOMG!!! This is too powerful!! It's Beardy!!" PLEASE:rolleyes:

It is just new. Just like the guard, orks, daemons, and every other army in the game they feel over-powered until people get used to playing with and against them.

In short STFU with all the negativity and play a couple of fun games with or against them. The key word here is G A M E. If you are so stressed about losing to a new army, learn it and learn it's weaknesses. It's not likely any stronger than any other codex folks!

EmperorEternalXIX
09-12-2009, 10:22 AM
I'd be inclined to agree but it's a foolish sentiment. "We deserve this." So just because my book gets updated first, it's supposed to suck?

There are some people whose armies are out of date but who are perfectly menacing just the same; some would argue that 5th Ed has been very kind to armies like the Nids or the Dark Eldar.

I think that, fanboyism aside, the cheese factor will be obvious when every power armored army at your LGS is proxying to be the wolves, and there are all of a sudden 50 Space Wolves armies in your neighborhood overnight.

I don't think the logic of a long wait has any relevance. The length of time you have to wait for your codex does not mean it should be more powerful. I agree that this book fits the Wolves, but to deny the utter cheddar wafting from this codex is just ignorant bliss. These guys are going to be the OP flavor of the month and for the next few months we are going to be seeing Space Wolves fight Space Wolves or Space Wolves fighting Guard, and it's gonna be a long boring few months before the Nid vs. Nid stuff starts when they get an update.

I dunno. The book fits them, but it is still severely powerful and has some already-obvious power builds. It's like a whole book full of Vulkan Hestans. *shiver*

It is a great book, but the fact that all the SM armies are now so wildly different is a sure-fire sign that the others were guinea pigs, victims of the "scale back experiment" late in 4th edition along with Chaos.

Get ready for the dual of the Blackmanes!

Xas
09-12-2009, 10:46 AM
why did they give a hughe boost to the wolfes devastor-unit?

because ALL the other units SUCK *** to hell and back (only other way to use a devastor-a-like unit is with 4 meltaguns from CSM but that is special wapons and not heavies!).

I never understood why y heavy weapon is suddenly 10points more expensive just because your squad can take 4 and not score anymore.

shooting one weapon a turn with bs5 didnt help either...

EmperorEternalXIX
09-12-2009, 11:02 AM
Again, this is one of the many provinces that should have belonged to other chapters, and is part of why I as a normal SM player will make every endeavor to either humiliate or avoid the wolves. It's just a sort of shameless and relatively needless buff.

Xas
09-12-2009, 12:00 PM
well you as a SM player can at least count on that "needless buff" to cover over into your new codex: smurfs in at maximum 2 years. other harmies have to wait decades for their updates (orks, nec, de, ....).


all the marine dex work to be guniea pigs for the ones to follow and everyone should just choose the dex he thinks best fits the style/fluff/powerlevel of his army. if you think your "pointy sticks of the emperor" chapter deserves cheap devastors then make them puppies. if you think they deserve TL meltaguns make them vulkan-servants. if they by some crazy experiments use drugs that improve their stats use CSM (icons).

Sarpedon
09-12-2009, 02:06 PM
I agree withyou entirely EmperorEternal, the very idea that length of wait for a new codex justifies how powerful a new book will be is a frightening precedence, think of the DE and Necrons in that case.

In regards to smurfs, the smrufs are supposed the basic marines, the standard template. Anything that improves upon this should be expensive. Now i dont think they needed to be 20pts per guy, but icertainly see at least 18, not to make them hugely expesive, but at least pay for the extra stuff they get cause lord knows they dont pay for it in many other spots.

Xas - i dont understand your comment? I think the space wolf long fangs should cost at least EXACTLY the same as the SM devies, due to having split fire and not a signum. The likely hood that we will see a wolf without at least two of these units is small.

Judgeing even from the list that was posted on the BOLS main page i can see the Wolves dominating every tournament for quite some time.

Shadowvast - i agree with you and i shall play several games against it, show me a weakness or downside of this army to begin with?

Flummer
09-12-2009, 02:30 PM
I think this army will be more balanced than people think at standard point games, 1250-1750. It seems when they get up into 2000+ they are going to have a real advantage. I am a little scared of all the hub-bub going aroung, but this same kind of talk was going on about the 5th ed SM codex was about to release and it turned out fine.

Levitas
09-12-2009, 05:47 PM
The new codex may look scary, and it is good. But like most of the new dexes will have its weak points. But there arnt many straight off the bat.

I'll be playing wolves, but with any army its good to know your own weak points.

Yes Njal is great. But make him roll dice and he'll eventually fall with the best of them. He will cause many problems though, and will no doubt be forecasting the weather in many tournaments.

Many of the special HQs dont have eternal warrior, so a hidden fist will ruin their day. They are also incredibly expensive, meaning that going over board will easily leave them outnumbered.

The assault nature of the army will also require crusaders to be truly affective. Thats another whack of points on top. Wolves also dont have access to sternguard, attack bike squadrons, ironclads and a bunch of other good stuff from the marine dex.

The strong builds will hold high numbers of greyhunters, and these will be the ones that are hard to beat.

It is a good codex, and I for one will relish using it. But its not invincible. The same talk will no doubt gather around nids and blood angels next year. People will be gawping at furious fleeting death company or nid beasts that kill everything on the table by turn 2 on a 2+. Just the way it is!

Exitus Acta Probat
09-12-2009, 08:14 PM
The new codex may look scary, and it is good. But like most of the new dexes will have its weak points. But there arnt many straight off the bat.

I'll be playing wolves, but with any army its good to know your own weak points.

Yes Njal is great. But make him roll dice and he'll eventually fall with the best of them. He will cause many problems though, and will no doubt be forecasting the weather in many tournaments.

Many of the special HQs dont have eternal warrior, so a hidden fist will ruin their day. They are also incredibly expensive, meaning that going over board will easily leave them outnumbered.

The assault nature of the army will also require crusaders to be truly affective. Thats another whack of points on top. Wolves also dont have access to sternguard, attack bike squadrons, ironclads and a bunch of other good stuff from the marine dex.

The strong builds will hold high numbers of greyhunters, and these will be the ones that are hard to beat.

It is a good codex, and I for one will relish using it. But its not invincible. The same talk will no doubt gather around nids and blood angels next year. People will be gawping at furious fleeting death company or nid beasts that kill everything on the table by turn 2 on a 2+. Just the way it is!


Exceptional points across the board Lev...my thoughts exactly.
What people are reacting to is the OMG it's full of stars...and not really running out the lists.
If you use the good stuff, you are outnumbered.
If you don't, you are out LEADERSHIPED.
The ldrship of the army is 8 guys...pay attention to that...
Without the option for veteran sgts, you have to consume an elites slot for the sole purpose of doling out overpriced (though VERY well accoutered) super-sgts. Plugging them in normally brings the squad to parity with a Space Marine TAC squad, without combat squad options (or heavy weapons). It also FORCES you to either give up the second special weapon, or buy a LRC/R for transport.
Are they better, yes...are G-Hunters (as someone here put it) possibly the best troop in the game? very possibly.
But the context is everything.
To make it work, you MUST put points into overpriced toys.
Every 'dex has powerful units. The only one that can be truly spammed in this 'dex though, is the Grey Hunter...the rest are too expensive.
Are you going to complain that GW made a CORE TROOP UNIT (that fluff wise is the most prevalent in the army it's built for) efficient, desirable and affordable? Egads...gawd help it we follow fluff!
Characters rock, and cost more than land raiders.
Elites rock, and there aren't enough slots for em.
Fast attack is either good, but the same as their SM counterparts...or borderline grud to overpriced blech.
Hvy, okay...so an army can finally use devastators again, but WAIT! to make those awesome troops really worthwhile, we need LRC's/LRR's...so......hrrrrmmm
As GW has done with a number of 'dexes, they applied the best units (excepting Grey Hunters) to catagories that have too much competition to make the choices easy, or redundant.
Choose, but choose WISELY said the Templar to Indy...

There is no excessive spam in this army, excepting troop spam...what's wrong with that?

warpcrafter
09-12-2009, 11:29 PM
After perusing this thread and the latest complaint thread about Chaos Space Marines, I believe that I may have just struck on an idea. I will continue to use my Chaos Space Marines models, counting as renamed Space Wolves. Instead of Thunderwolves, I'll have Khorne Berserkers riding Juggernauts. Instead of Ragnar Blackmane leading Bloodclaws, I'll have Kharn the (Not so anymore) Betrayer leading Berserkers on foot. Instead of Logan Grimnar leading Wolf Guard Terminators, I'll have Abaddon the Despoiler leading Black Legion Terminators. Throw in a few Chaos Hounds (Fenrisian Wolves) and a Daemon Prince for Canis Wolfborn and there you go. Not a perfect fix, but it's something.:cool:

StrikerFox
09-13-2009, 12:30 AM
I still havent seen the dex for myself, but upon hearing all the rules and whatnots coming out, i have to say that it is a long time coming. i dont care what anyone else says.. you will ALWAYS come across others who will say "this is too cheesy" or "this dex is gonna break the game! nerf bat ahoy!" well i dont care, ive been waiting thru 3 armies til i could stand toe to toe with another MEQ army, and not get whipped around with my tail between my legs. to really go and say that this new dex is horrible or overpowered just because it has stuff others dont, well, its because... THEY DONT! i mean, crap, i still HATE black templars with that stupid preferred enemy rule! if i cant beat them in HtH with the wolves NOW... THEN something is HORRIBLY fken wrong!

in anycase, when i heard that they were more of an elitest army, i got scared and puckered up.... but now i see that it really depends on who and what you take, and how you use them. i will HAVE to change my old list, as now, out of hibernation, they are new and improved..

i still dont like that wolf that canis is riding.... looks like a huge scared cat.... with an monocle...

EmperorEternalXIX
09-13-2009, 02:10 AM
The idea that this army will be balanced by the need for expensive LR transports is stupid, since from what I have seen they can put terminators into drop pods AND have the drop pod assault rule. Do you know how many frigging drop pods you can fit in the 250 points that WOULD have been spent on a land raider?


Are you going to complain that GW made a CORE TROOP UNIT (that fluff wise is the most prevalent in the army it's built for) efficient, desirable and affordable? Egads...gawd help it we follow fluff! When my army is supposed to have the same type of troop unit that is worse, has worse/contrary options, and costs more with less rules, then yes. I am not complaining that the Wolves' units are good, I just don't understand why they feel the need to be focused all of a sudden. Where is the crap, the awkward stuff that is in the SM codex that we all wonder what the hell they were thinking? The Wolves dex has NONE of that: everything in it is awesome/useful/cheap.

I think people misunderstand. I don't think it's unbeatable -- no codex is unbeatable. But this is going to be one of those armies, you know the ones...either it barely scrapes a win despite total tactical ineptitude or it utterly smashes everyone in its path and tables a different guy at your club week in and week out till eventually you have to go back to your old army just to even get a game in. I'll beat it, and before long I'll beat it consistently. But come on -- you can't tell me you are looking forward to the invariable endless Wolf vs. Wolf or Wolf vs. Guard games, or the club roster showing 4 guard armies and 5 space wolves armies, etc.

It's bad for the game to make armies so retardedly good that everyone wants to use them and not the others. Who in their right mind would use the Space Marine or Blood Angels dex to do an assault-heavy chapter now? Who would ever use the Chaos Codex, for that matter, when these guys are running around like Abaddon on steroids giving huge bonuses to the whole army full of "Chaos+1" type units?

My complaint isn't that Wolves are too good, I just want to know why the design philosophy was so wildly different when Ward shat out the garbage pile of vomit that is the current SM codex. It is full of counter-productive options -- why!? This is baffling enough but you figure "Oh it's for balance." Then along come things like the Guard codex and this new Wolves book..."Have everything be awesome! No limits! No stupid counterproductive rules you will almost never use! No making you pay more points for guys because they have a power that lets them INTENTIONALLY LOSE."

It's just gonna be a whole book of Vulkan lists, games where inconsistent favoritism lead to overjoyed wolves players and underwhelmed, angry, slighted opponents -- people who lose game's because of a guy's special power and not because the other player had superior generalship. This is what makes fighting stuff like "The Vulkan List" annoying and unsatisfying, as opposed to say fighting an Ork or Guard list where the odds are overwhelming but at least you are fighting normal guys with their own basic game mechanic pluses and minuses.

I just foresee every game against the wolves being very frustrating for opposing players. And especially moreso for we bog-standard SMs, as we struggle to get our guys to do one useful thing consistently while the Space Wolves will be out-assaulting the Blood Angels, out-Terminatoring the Dark Angels, out-specialcharactering the standard SM and out-specialruling the Black Templars.

I foresee them becoming a common and really hated army that people start not even wanting to face anymore (like Salamanders were).

Xas
09-13-2009, 04:08 AM
Xas - i dont understand your comment? I think the space wolf long fangs should cost at least EXACTLY the same as the SM devies, due to having split fire and not a signum. The likely hood that we will see a wolf without at least two of these units is small.



All I'm trying to say is that all the heaavy-support, ehavy weapon using space marine squads are crap and though the longfangs are cheaper even they have to proove that they are worth the points (and whine).

complaining about an improvement in design for a unit that has been flawed for ages appears contraproductive.
did anyone whine about the decrease in SM biker costs? I didnt hear it and following your logic they should be at least as pricey as the bikes from CSM (sm bikes get the chance to become scoring but loose to option to take expensive icons which is both quite powerfull so evens out).



if you think SM devastors are worth their points then yeah the longfangs should be the same pricetag. I do not think the devastors are worth their points and furthermore haveing no additional wounds makes longfangs more vulnerable and therefore an even more flawed design.

the simple reason why current devastors suck is the pricetag compared to a predator.
3 heavy bolters in 5 marines cost 50pts (more than 60%!) more than a predator with autocanon and 2 heavy bolters.
3 lascannons in 5 marines cost 30 points more than a predator with tl lascannon and 2 lascanons.

in my book the tank wins in a 1:1 comparison between those units because he is able to fire 1/3 of his armament while moving and is immune to small arms fire and more resilent to all but meltagun&lascan fire.

if the rumors are true (15pts a man, 5for HB, 25 for lascannon and only the searge without heavy) the numbers look quite well balanced.

on the heavy bolter loadout the longfangs are 10pts cheaper than a tank. takeing into account that this unit only has 4 wounds @ 3+ save this seams reasonable comapred to an AV13 tank.

on the laser layout the fangs are 30points cheaper than the tank. at first this appears like a big bang for the buck but still its only 4 marines. in small points games prolly a good unit for ranged anti tank where the enemy doesnt have the ranged resources to kill them but once your reach 1000+ they will die at the will of your oponent (see all those chimaera running around? your 34pts a wound squad is a perfect target for their free scatter lsers ;) )


I hope now my comment is more clear.

energongoodie
09-13-2009, 05:13 AM
Saw the codex yesterday.
Enjoyed the book, can't wait to make up different style armies, cant wait for Wolf cavalry....but.
Really wasn't that impressed with the models. Lukas 'Mick Hucknel' the Trickster is awful. No Ragnar ( which blew me away when it came out years and years ago), no Logan, No Bjorn. Shame. The general grey hunters seemed a real mix. I loved some bits off the sprues and thought others were awful. So many of the wolves look like weird old men with crazy yorkshire sideburns instead ov Vikings, and there is no right handed power fists to make up the guy on the right of the cover of the codex
Love Njal and Canis but was disssapointedly underwhelmed. :(

RogueGarou
09-13-2009, 06:02 AM
From what I have heard the Codex is going to be fun. Enjoy it. Have a blast getting in touch with you inner Viking or filling the tabletop air with the stench of burning dog hair. :)

I do not play Wolves. I have never played Wolves. I have no intention of ever playing the Puppies. After so many years of playing Thousand Sons it is a practically conditioned response to want to face off with anything painted gray. One of my best friends has played Space Wolves since before I started playing.

I would like to sound off on the gripes for a moment. Chill out. First, it's just a game. Second, everyone thinks things are going to be overpowered when a new Codex comes out. That is the way of the world. When the new Guard Codex came out, I was happy with it. When the new Chaos book came out, I was unimpressed but still happy. Daemons made me smile. I heard the Russ squadrons would break the game. I hear Lash is the be all end all of the game. I hear groans (and I imagine whimpers but I'm not sure) when my Flamers drop right into the heart of an enemy army. None of them are overpowering. Nothing in the Wolves Codex will be the ultimate gaming rig. Don't sweat it. Kick back, play a couple of games and adapt if you have to.

A couple of examples. The Chaos Marines Lash list is supposed to be the nastiest thing since Limburger. I have never built a Lash list and don't plan to. One of the guys in our group is a very competitive tourney-minded player. He insisted the Lash with 3x Oblit squads was the only real Chaos list. He was proven wrong. He also played tourney armies for friendly games. After seeing him abuse some new players with a nasty tourney list I made a Chaos list with 32 meltaguns. That kills uber-expensive armor quite nicely. I also put together a Guard list, before the new Codex came out, with two Vanquishers in it. That also killed his very pricey Land Raiders and Dreads which made his army try to walk across the table. They got shot to pieces. Whatever super nasty thing comes out on the table is not always super nasty. A good player still counts for a lot. A good list counts for a lot. But bribing the line judge almost always gets a bad call to win the match. :D

But seriously, on any given day, any given army can beat any other army. I remember a squad of grots wiping out a Terminator squad back in second edition to prove it. Have fun, kick some Wolves, and try not to get rabies when they bite you.

Exitus Acta Probat
09-13-2009, 05:47 PM
The idea that this army will be balanced by the need for expensive LR transports is stupid, since from what I have seen they can put terminators into drop pods AND have the drop pod assault rule. Do you know how many frigging drop pods you can fit in the 250 points that WOULD have been spent on a land raider?

Well, first...I am sorry I had the gall to have an opinion that did not meet your intellectual standards...I will keep my 'stupid' opinions to myself...
No, wait, I won't...not my nature.

If you actually got only that from the post I made, I am sorry for your blinders and rabid hatred that closes your viewpoint to nothing but vitriol and detestation.

I am a DA player, with my short legged Deathwing, and mediocre dex...and a rivalry with these upstart pups, and yet I think this is a fun and interesting dex...and I recognize it's inherent weakness, balancing issues, AND it's draw. And I also know it's going to have the same doom and gloom the guard did, and then 'boom'...everyone will settle down and see it for what it is, another 5e dex swimming in a still mostly 4e book world. Chillax. The world's not over.


When my army is supposed to have the same type of troop unit that is worse, has worse/contrary options, and costs more with less rules, then yes. I am not complaining that the Wolves' units are good, I just don't understand why they feel the need to be focused all of a sudden. Where is the crap, the awkward stuff that is in the SM codex that we all wonder what the hell they were thinking? The Wolves dex has NONE of that: everything in it is awesome/useful/cheap.


um, bikers...atk bikes with bs 3? assault bloodclaws? Wolves, unless you are using them as throw aways/building around a wolf army.
THSS termies (nearly the best SM unit in the game) costing nearly DOUBLE their counterparts...
No FNP options to speak of.
NO VETERAN SGTS without spending an elites slot/overpointed sgt cost (that will cost you your port cap in a normal transport)...
Jeebus dude, need I go on?

Oh, right, can I have my combat tactics back? PLEASE! The control and flow over WHEN you get assaulted half the time, or the ability to leave assault units high and dry by falling back?
(oh right, I'm not one of those whiny DA players that have been griping since my 'dex got nerfed, I just adapted...so no, we won't talk about that...)

I'm not saying they're not good, but just because someone else isn't sharing a 'chicken little' mentality, does NOT make them stupid...nor does missing half the points they made by zooming in on what you consider ridiculous out of context.



I think people misunderstand. I don't think it's unbeatable -- no codex is unbeatable.

then why are you complaining? if you can beat em, do it and laud yourself for beating back the uber-cheeze-wolves...but don't hate till you've played against em, don't cry till you try em out to see how to beat them, and don't try to make other people feel bad for playing something they've wanted to.
Other people out there are waiting for their dexes too, sorry yours doesn't measure up right now (in your view)...I have necrons...I'm not upset because I'm not getting these units and prices.
Oh, and thought their PDF wasn't a bad list, the wolves have been waiting a VERY LONG TIME for a new 'dex. Give them their moment in the sun, before the hive fleets consume them.


But this is going to be one of those armies, you know the ones...either it barely scrapes a win despite total tactical ineptitude or it utterly smashes everyone in its path and tables a different guy at your club week in and week out till eventually you have to go back to your old army just to even get a game in. I'll beat it, and before long I'll beat it consistently. But come on --

If you are beyond convinced you will beat them consistently after a little exposure, then your argument is specious and unfounded.
If it's so strong that inept play will still let it win, then you won't be able to beat it consistently with better players.



My complaint isn't that Wolves are too good, I just want to know why the design philosophy was so wildly different when Ward shat out the garbage pile of vomit that is the current SM codex. It is full of counter-productive options -- why!? This is baffling enough but you figure "Oh it's for balance." Then along come things like the Guard codex and this new Wolves book..."Have everything be awesome! No limits! No stupid counterproductive rules you will almost never use! No making you pay more points for guys because they have a power that lets them INTENTIONALLY LOSE."

Sorry,
I can beat face with basic marines, without using Vulkan.
I can beat face with guard, without 12 chimeras medusa spam and vendettas...



It's just gonna be a whole book of Vulkan lists, games where inconsistent favoritism lead to overjoyed wolves players and underwhelmed, angry, slighted opponents -- people who lose game's because of a guy's special power and not because the other player had superior generalship. This is what makes fighting stuff like "The Vulkan List" annoying and unsatisfying, as opposed to say fighting an Ork or Guard list where the odds are overwhelming but at least you are fighting normal guys with their own basic game mechanic pluses and minuses.

sorry your group is so hyper efficient it's the only type of response to 'dexes that you see, to spam the new crap, and no one can beat em.
I suppose you guys still think Nob Bikers are da bomb and unbeatable too?


I just foresee every game against the wolves being very frustrating for opposing players. And especially moreso for we bog-standard SMs, as we struggle to get our guys to do one useful thing consistently while the Space Wolves will be out-assaulting the Blood Angels, out-Terminatoring the Dark Angels, out-specialcharactering the standard SM and out-specialruling the Black Templars.

I'm sorry that losing is not a learning experience and a method to grow as a player, and learn to beat the new stuff...
Oh, and before you think they'll out special character the special characters, I think you should start looking at the army wide impact of SM SPCL charcters vs their point input.


I foresee them becoming a common and really hated army that people start not even wanting to face anymore (like Salamanders were).

I cannot really believe that your entire group is so focused that they cannot handle a new list, it's variety and vagaries, without seeing them as a potential challenge..
or they ALL can afford to just be flavor of the month players...
Or that they are not adept enough to use the early codex release as a way to start figuring out how to beat them BEFORE the dex becomes official?
Oh, wait...that won't be necessary...tactics that are anti-MEQ already are a big boost against wolved, who's model count will probably be even lower.

Drop the vitriol...you are producing nothing but bilious poison.

Drunkencorgimaster
09-13-2009, 06:05 PM
Wow, GW has managed to piss off EmperorEternalXIX??? Man they must really screwed the pooch because the Big 19 is one of their most dedicated defenders.

Kanaeallers, I am afraid the you have drunk the coolaid my friend. It makes no sense to buff one chapter this drastically, and I am speaking as old Space Wolf player.

EmperorEternalXIX
09-14-2009, 12:48 AM
With respect, Exitus, I think you are perhaps taking my viewpoint as a personal attack. As I have mentioned before, I come from the press -- so I have very little "niceness" filtration. I report what I see in cold hard facts. The reason I focus on cherry-picked points is because, given my editorial background, I could write a 15-page post in 10 minutes that no one would really be too interested in reading that deeply. I'm sorry if you think that I was attacking you for your opinion, or whatever else; in reality I am simply making the case against your points. If I find a point stupid, that doesn't mean I find the person making it stupid. That being said... I do not know what else to call the idea that one of the best tanks in the game being an option for an army justifies its theoretically incredible power. I run a list with 7 foot-slogging assault terminators (2xClaws, 2xTHSS) and they perform infinitely better than anything I've ever put in a Land Raider. All the Land Raider is, is a 250+ bullseye that you are paying to place on another 250-400 points of your army.

@Drunkencorgimaster: Yes, I am a pretty big defender of the game and the company. I know WHY this happened though; between about the time of the Eldar codex and the time of the Ork codex, I think GW was just really unsure of what their fans wanted. The idea of streamlining the books was good and has made life a lot easier without armies and bizarre wargear overlaps in the same list, etc. The problem was, they lost sight of the power level of each army, doing what many game companies do with their games: they started from the complaints and cut things down. For example, the Chaos Codex. This was of course a design flaw; in game terms it would have been much better to make the other armies stronger as time passed, rather than to weaken the chaos codex. This all changed with the ork codex -- a huge hit on all fronts. At this juncture GW realized what the fans wanted -- powerful stuff rooted in the fluff. Unfortunately the SM dex bit the bullet on this one as they concocted new bizarre fluff, along with this weird idea that "This book is mostly ultramarines but has some random stuff in it too." The entire idea was justified by stupid "Wonder Twin" team-up stories that took up an extra 30pages of the book. If these pages had been filled with better rules instead of stupid contrary bizarre tag team chapter fluff, we'd all be much better off.

My complaint differs from many people's. I dont' feel the wolves are overpowered relative to the rest of the game. What I don't like is the complete and utter huge buff that is miles beyond any other codex chapters. I dislike that Green marines suck, blue marines are okay, and grey marines with beards are better than Chaos.

Of course it also extends beyond my codex. I am upset that the relative power levels in game have nothing to do with armies' fluff and have everything to do with audience complaints (or at least they did for a time). When we are upset about an army being unfairly balanced, always remember that it really has nothing to do with the army itself, but rather, the armies you've fought with against it.

When people cried that the IG was unbalanced reently, for example, it had more to do with other armies' lack of sufficient AT/anti-infantry firepower than the guard themselves. The guard can field more vehicles than any other army and as such the "Accepted" amount of AT melta weaponry had to change. Some armies, of course, can't really field it "en masse" enough to level the field so easily, and have to rely on other means (Tyranids jump to mind, as do Orks in an odd way...also Daemonhunters and Necrons).

I will respond to Exitus personally from this point on...casual readers of the thread may want to skip this part, as I've decided to turn my editorial background toward the task in full.


um, bikers...atk bikes with bs 3?
A needless nerf that came about from Warseer posts about how unfair attack bikes are (when people don't realize you can have 3 land speeders that are more resilient and faster doing the same thing).

assault bloodclaws?
This doesn't really compare to the worthlessness of some things in other codex. It's a unit that, compared to the other beastly options, isn't so wise, but it clearly has use. When you get offered a Drop Pod for an artillery piece, I will sympathize more.

Wolves, unless you are using them as throw aways/building around a wolf army.
Those of us without throwaway units do not see these as worthless either. People measure units by their damage output, which is foolish. These guys could tie up muliple squads, be obnoxious on objectives, lend themselves to add a few swings to a critical assault, and do a thousand other useful things that are not rendering the enemy to a paste.

THSS termies (nearly the best SM unit in the game) costing nearly DOUBLE their counterparts...
Raising the price of the alleged best unit in the game doesn't surprise me one bit. Originally the rumor was that the Wolves wouldn't have the shields at all. Also, I do not know the unit's stats...perhaps they have some other means of buff that necessitates this point cost?

No FNP options to speak of.
FNP is really not worth that much. I don't think an FNP roll would ever be rolled anyway. Everything that is going to fire at these guys is going to be AP2+, or a power weapon anyway.

NO VETERAN SGTS without spending an elites slot/overpointed sgt cost (that will cost you your port cap in a normal transport)...
I'm not fully familiar with this, but to me, it sounds like you can add an awesome guy to each unit, which sounds good to me. Don't forget that an SM sergeant can cost a pretty penny himself. A power fist puts him at nearly Terminator cost. With wound allocation having a tough hard to kill guy in the squad seems to have its uses, especially in smaller squads. Regardless, it's an option no one else in the game has -- I don't see that as a negative, it isn't counterintuitive or nearly as useless as something like, say, Lysander's bolter rule.



Oh, right, can I have my combat tactics back? PLEASE! The control and flow over WHEN you get assaulted half the time, or the ability to leave assault units high and dry by falling back? The standard SMs only need this because they are so fragile (not literally, of course, but by extension of their list setup...there will be very few of them and comparatively opposing armies have most weapon upgrades to do things that are particularly harsh to 3+ 1-wound models). Combat tactics is a great rule and is vital to the SM being able to deal with having a model count in the 50s; with the Wolves, their best counter to being assaulted or fought up close is their own viciousness. Counterattack will go a long way toward making the enemy not want to press on you for assaults.

I would rather kick *** and have guys be afraid to engage me, then get my *** kicked and volunteer to run away in hopes I can escape. Which one of those sounds more fluff-real to you?


then why are you complaining? if you can beat em, do it and laud yourself for beating back the uber-cheeze-wolves...but don't hate till you've played against em, don't cry till you try em out to see how to beat them, and don't try to make other people feel bad for playing something they've wanted to.
Firstly: to think that every person who is going to use this codex is a noble longtime wolf fan who is getting his day in the sun is asinine. There are going to be a huge chunk of people using it simply because it is going to be the new OP hotness and the flavor of the month. It is to these people whom I refer in my other remarks.

I don't want to make people feel like jerks for using the codex. I however have no problem making people feel like jerks who think they are entitled to the most powerful army in the game when it is an off-shoot of other organizations in the game that aren't even close to comparable. It is diesel, and it's diesel to sell expensive $15-$20 metal HQ minis, and I can accept that. What bothers me is that there is no reason to play the standard SM barring Vulkan or Pedro. Certainly no reason to use the blood angels, and the dark angels, pfft...other than the page with Azrael and Sammael, the book is a joke, an experiment in uber nerfage and massive points-cost public beta testing. A sin really... the DA should be awesome.


Other people out there are waiting for their dexes too, sorry yours doesn't measure up right now (in your view)...I have necrons...I'm not upset because I'm not getting these units and prices. I am more upset that mine is stupid than that it is weak. The Space Wolves codex, for any faults or cheese it may bear unto the game, will without a doubt be an accurate depiction of the viking-inspired supersoldiers. The primary SM codex utterly fails at this. Hopefully GW are catching on at "feels" for armies: all the best ones have the right feel. The orks feel like a ravenous mob of ramshackle gits running headstrong into battle without a care; the Imperial Guard feel like an endless fleet of men and vehicles filing into the trenches and dying in droves but pushing on with numbers supremacy despite their inherent weaknesses; and the Space Wolves will be utterly ferocious, charging enemy lines and laying their fury down with claws and axes.

Comparably the SM codex is a mish-mash of cowardice, bizarre fluff that makes no sense, strange self-imposed limitations, and odd illogical balance issues. I win with the standard SM codex but I do it by doing things that are foolish or against standard principles outlined in the fluff; I spend much of my games hiding, I send units into obvious suicides that accomplish little but slow an enemy down, and I often spend several minutes deliberating each move I make simply because the codex is set up in such a way that it fails utterly to do things WELL. Your devastator squad will accomplish little when compared to a comparably costed two predators (or better yet, a squad of Slammer-Hammer Termies).

Chaos suffers from this as well, as do the DA. These armies do not play poorly, but they just don't feel right. You know?


I suppose you guys still think Nob Bikers are da bomb and unbeatable too? We are a good group when it comes to winning on strategy. Still, the units are citical as well. Killing the nob bikers isn't impossible. But try killing them with only 50 models. Then try and do it with 30 of those models having only bolters. Then the other 20 have weapon configurations that are contrary to each other and so only use 1/2 of their armament at any given time. Then add to this equation, about 5000 other orks. You can see where even the best tactical acumen can fail here, I trust?


Sorry that losing is not a learning experience and a method to grow as a player, and learn to beat the new stuff... This is foolish. Everything I learned about the game came from losing it. EVERYTHING is a learning experience, and as I said before, I do not think the list will be too unbeatable. I will learn to defeat its common builds as I have done with the other new FotM lists (Orks, Mechvet Guard and Vulkan,specifically. i can defeat these all with my space marines, and I take no special characters and no land raiders, drop pods, or sternguard). My "vitriol" comes from the fact that the Space Wolves will play like brave heroic elite warriors while I am sitting over my table with my SM stewing over the most basic shooting and assault decisions because of how iffy and unreliable the army is by comparison. It is a jealousy, and I have no problem admitting that. My complaint isn't that the wolves are too badass...it's that ALL the space marines should be this badass. And Chaos Marines, twice so! Something is wrong with the meta game if these decisions, mundane for other armies, must be considered so carefully. Often the margin of success on what I need to do is slim to none. We hit the table outmanned and outgunned. Other than the Slammer Hammer guys, nothing in the SM list feels tough at all. On the contrary -- it plays fragile, and the reckless abandon in the name of victory depicted in the fluff is utter fiction compared to the cautious fearful play required to win consistently with them.


Oh, and before you think they'll out special character the special characters, I think you should start looking at the army wide impact of SM SPCL charcters vs their point input. A good example of what I said earlier. I am going to call this a stupid point; note that, like before, it doesn't mean YOU, just the logic employed.

To be blunt, a large chunk of the SM characters do little or nothing for the army. I was going to list them but this post is horridly long enough without me repeating my oft-extolled logic of the SM SC's failings. I will summarize by saying that most of the SM characters give stupid or unfluffy benefits and often turn off some of their better rules, or worse yet, have CONTRARY rules (Lysander's bolter drill jumps to mind). It would appear from early info that the Wolves suffer from none of this. Also, many of the SM SCs actually do nothing truly beneficial for the army as a whole. Sicarius is more expensive than Khan, Vulkan, and Pedro, and is nearly equal to Shrike, and isn't as good as ANY of them and does almost nothing for the army overall.


I cannot really believe that your entire group is so focused that they cannot handle a new list, it's variety and vagaries, without seeing them as a potential challenge.. My group will dismantle this list, with me at the head of the efforts. It is one of my favorite things about the game! With respect, attacking my gaming group is somewhat uncalled for. Whether my gaming group are idiots or not (which they aren't, I consider them some of the finest players I have met, honestly), it does not have anything to do with whether this book is wafting with the aroma of smoked guddha or not.

I apologize to anyone who actually read the full text of this post. ;)

Exitus Acta Probat
09-14-2009, 04:19 AM
Understood,
and I did overcompensate...and honestly did not take it as a personal attack.
I understand writing for effect as well, and that inflammatory makes for better editorializing.
I responded in kind, but I saw vitriol. I thought it needed pointing out.

Take it in stride that there are a larger number of pup players out there than we know...
I caught so much SHI# for guard recentl (and other's I know, and some that I didn't) about being flavor of the month players/netlisters/what have you. I had to dust off those tanks, pull out my forgeworld valk, and find my old executioner turret that I use only when people let me play by FW rules. I bought new valks cause I love the idea of air cav. First tournament I played in was very disheartening. I won. I wished I hadn't.
The early reactions/distate for the guard uber-cheese left a bad taste in my mouth for finally getting to play my guard again, AND use my favorite model(s) in the game. I've been playing longer than one of the guys who asked me 'is that the new list going around the internet' has been out of grade school.
I let the water roll off shortly after, but it left a bit of bile in the back of my throat.

I am innately against cries of cheese, and crap and unfair until something has had a chance to settle into the bones of the community, and be slowly assimilated and dealt with. Partially because (in my fluffy bunny fascist stage, I too cried cheese too much).



The standard SMs only need this because they are so fragile (not literally, of course, but by extension of their list setup...there will be very few of them and comparatively opposing armies have most weapon upgrades to do things that are particularly harsh to 3+ 1-wound models). Combat tactics is a great rule and is vital to the SM being able to deal with having a model count in the 50s; with the Wolves, their best counter to being assaulted or fought up close is their own viciousness. Counterattack will go a long way toward making the enemy not want to press on you for assaults.

I would rather kick *** and have guys be afraid to engage me, then get my *** kicked and volunteer to run away in hopes I can escape. Which one of those sounds more fluff-real to you?

A strategic withdrawl to paste the enemy in the face with holy bolter fire and prometheum, as Roboute intended? Methinks that the training in the codex astartes (do not waste precious geneseed unnecessarily) and administratum (resource waste is the mark of a traitor/bodies are a resource) answers that? ;)
Seriously, I really do see that as an issue of resource mis-management, a thing that Masters like the Lion and Roboute have no truck with.
And fragile by application because they ARE supposed to operate with those tactics in mind. If you don't, you are losing part of their depth.




Firstly: to think that every person who is going to use this codex is a noble longtime wolf fan who is getting his day in the sun is asinine. There are going to be a huge chunk of people using it simply because it is going to be the new OP hotness and the flavor of the month. It is to these people whom I refer in my other remarks.

Understood, but not by everyone. I'm not a wolf player, I don't like their fluff. I AM going to spend a month playing them, to feel the flow of their dex, so that I may beat them more easily. It's the best way.
But by attacking the 'dex to it's very heart, with the heat (and passion) you did, you really didn't deliver that message well.
It really was a smurf vs wolf fan feel.



I don't want to make people feel like jerks for using the codex. I however have no problem making people feel like jerks who think they are entitled to the most powerful army in the game when it is an off-shoot of other organizations in the game that aren't even close to comparable. It is diesel, and it's diesel to sell expensive $15-$20 metal HQ minis, and I can accept that. What bothers me is that there is no reason to play the standard SM barring Vulkan or Pedro. Certainly no reason to use the blood angels, and the dark angels, pfft...other than the page with Azrael and Sammael, the book is a joke, an experiment in uber nerfage and massive points-cost public beta testing. A sin really... the DA should be awesome.

I'm not stopping my play of DA and BA. I am not stopping my play of regular marines.
Sorry, I see a meta shift as something to tune into. I guess it's just a different way of seeing it honestly.
(DA should be, but right now their not...they'll get there again, though I hope before I'm 50)



I am more upset that mine is stupid than that it is weak. The Space Wolves codex, for any faults or cheese it may bear unto the game, will without a doubt be an accurate depiction of the viking-inspired supersoldiers. The primary SM codex utterly fails at this. Hopefully GW are catching on at "feels" for armies: all the best ones have the right feel. The orks feel like a ravenous mob of ramshackle gits running headstrong into battle without a care; the Imperial Guard feel like an endless fleet of men and vehicles filing into the trenches and dying in droves but pushing on with numbers supremacy despite their inherent weaknesses; and the Space Wolves will be utterly ferocious, charging enemy lines and laying their fury down with claws and axes.

I always kind of felt that the basic SM codex was, well, 'vanilla'. This doesn't change.
I don't think that's stupid, and in fact may have a 'bit' too much flavor, with army spanning tactical shifts jumping out with every master...but that's GW's vision, not mine. I just play em and enjoy.



Comparably the SM codex is a mish-mash of cowardice, bizarre fluff that makes no sense, strange self-imposed limitations, and odd illogical balance issues. I win with the standard SM codex but I do it by doing things that are foolish or against standard principles outlined in the fluff; I spend much of my games hiding, I send units into obvious suicides that accomplish little but slow an enemy down, and I often spend several minutes deliberating each move I make simply because the codex is set up in such a way that it fails utterly to do things WELL. Your devastator squad will accomplish little when compared to a comparably costed two predators (or better yet, a squad of Slammer-Hammer Termies).

I don't think anything that is 'tactically' applied is dumb. Just a different method of play. If it doesn't fit your flavor, I am sorry, but it fits the game right now.
Maneuver for advantage and cover, probing into dangerous territory, accepting the loss of men to spring a trap that saves your army?
Military acumen. The scale is wrong to see it as such a short exchange anywho, it's a days worth of battle on that field, in the time/range scale that is 40k.



Chaos suffers from this as well, as do the DA. These armies do not play poorly, but they just don't feel right. You know?

YES...on both counts. they missed the train on those codexes, HORRIBLY.
I think the Gav lauding article here was inexcusable. He should be drawn and quartered...this is NOT sarcasm on my part, I really think we should find some method of arcane torture for that man!



This is foolish. Everything I learned about the game came from losing it. EVERYTHING is a learning experience, and as I said before, I do not think the list will be too unbeatable.

but it didn't sound like it. It sounded like others who complain 'it's too powerful'...I am getting you now though.



To be blunt, a large chunk of the SM characters do little or nothing for the army. I was going to list them but this post is horridly long enough without me repeating my oft-extolled logic of the SM SC's failings. I will summarize by saying that most of the SM characters give stupid or unfluffy benefits and often turn off some of their better rules, or worse yet, have CONTRARY rules (Lysander's bolter drill jumps to mind). It would appear from early info that the Wolves suffer from none of this. Also, many of the SM SCs actually do nothing truly beneficial for the army as a whole. Sicarius is more expensive than Khan, Vulkan, and Pedro, and is nearly equal to Shrike, and isn't as good as ANY of them and does almost nothing for the army overall.

An entire army of lent ldrship, the ability to lend old vet abilites, the ability to make an army stubborn or alter scoring unit qualifications? Sorry, these abilities all do add up...and sound like the evolution of a new codex...like wolves. Every dex contributes to the next one.

Lysander's bolter drill actually comes from OLD fluff...sgt lysander to be precise...(old is perspective here too, that may only be 2 codexes old, thus 10 yrs).
They chose, in the SM dex to apply old fluff AND new rules.
Did it make the most sense across the board, no, but I think people don't credit the far reaching impact of army wide special rules that can be tied into games.
Remember, outside the tournament scene, a normal game is 'i'm playing marines, what're you playin today'? and then you build your forces. You can tune in (so to speak) and this is a part of that.



My group will dismantle this list, with me at the head of the efforts. It is one of my favorite things about the game! With respect, attacking my gaming group is somewhat uncalled for. Whether my gaming group are idiots or not (which they aren't, I consider them some of the finest players I have met, honestly), it does not have anything to do with whether this book is wafting with the aroma of smoked guddha or not.

Attacking the group was off base, but by reaction it sounded as though it really was a doom and gloom response of someone who had no way to cope.
It's going to be a challenge to me, and influence the environment enough to bring some things back to balance, I hope.
I do not feel they are cheese though.



I apologize to anyone who actually read the full text of this post. ;)

Thanks for responding.

shadowvast
09-14-2009, 05:07 AM
I finally got my hands on a copy of the codex over the weekend at my FLGS. I sat down with some of the staff and a few of the better tournament players in our club. We were trying to really get a feel for the book and the possible builds from it. We spent the after noon and came up with three builds, a take on all comers tournament list, a 13th company list, and a terminator list. Know what we found?


Exceptional points across the board Lev...my thoughts exactly.
What people are reacting to is the OMG it's full of stars...and not really running out the lists.
If you use the good stuff, you are outnumbered.
If you don't, you are out LEADERSHIPED.
The ldrship of the army is 8 guys...pay attention to that...
Without the option for veteran sgts, you have to consume an elites slot for the sole purpose of doling out overpriced (though VERY well accoutered) super-sgts. Plugging them in normally brings the squad to parity with a Space Marine TAC squad, without combat squad options (or heavy weapons). It also FORCES you to either give up the second special weapon, or buy a LRC/R for transport.
Are they better, yes...are G-Hunters (as someone here put it) possibly the best troop in the game? very possibly.
But the context is everything.
To make it work, you MUST put points into overpriced toys.
Every 'dex has powerful units. The only one that can be truly spammed in this 'dex though, is the Grey Hunter...the rest are too expensive.
Are you going to complain that GW made a CORE TROOP UNIT (that fluff wise is the most prevalent in the army it's built for) efficient, desirable and affordable? Egads...gawd help it we follow fluff!
Characters rock, and cost more than land raiders.
Elites rock, and there aren't enough slots for em.
Fast attack is either good, but the same as their SM counterparts...or borderline grud to overpriced blech.
Hvy, okay...so an army can finally use devastators again, but WAIT! to make those awesome troops really worthwhile, we need LRC's/LRR's...so......hrrrrmmm
As GW has done with a number of 'dexes, they applied the best units (excepting Grey Hunters) to catagories that have too much competition to make the choices easy, or redundant.
Choose, but choose WISELY said the Templar to Indy...

There is no excessive spam in this army, excepting troop spam...what's wrong with that?

LongFang
09-14-2009, 11:14 AM
I'll probably be able to look though this evening if my LGS got a preview copy, but I just have to ask, is there any mention of the 13th company in the book?

I have a small 13th company army, and I'm hoping I can figure out a way to upgrade to the new Codex, but keep the same "feel" to the army.
I also ran a small 13th company, I did a down and dirty, rough stat out and came up with the following:
HQ, a Wolflord, a Wolfpriest, and a Runepriest well equiped
Troops, two !0 man Grey hunter packs, one 9 man Blood claw pack with Wolf guard leader
Fast attack, 15 wolves
Heavy support, two 6 man Longfang packs with 3 Rocket launchers and 2 Heavy bolters each.
Total package including meltaguns, powerfists and other goodies came out to 1473 points. Not bad for 60 well equipped marines.

LongFang
09-14-2009, 01:06 PM
I've played a SpaceWolf army since the dim dark Rogue Trader days when chosing a chapter was strictly a paint color decision. Paint and Fluff was all I had. I've been through all the editions, codex changes, fluff re-writes, sane, insane and everything in between. I am and incurable collector and have built and played virtually every army available with the exception of Tau and Necrons. Yes my imperial guard has a full platoon of squats, played as vertically impaired guardsmen, and my current marine battle company project involves modifying and upgrading 110 of the "RT01" beakies. When all is said and done the Wolves have always been the army I go back to. I've seen the new codex and am happy they not only kept the flavor of the 3rd edition codex but jumped in the wayback machine for some of the flavor of the 2nd edition. This new codex feels right, almost like it was written for me. It is all about heroic charges against all odds and logic. The army revolves around having "boots on the ground". Heros have always been the stuff of sagas, but this is a codex for the commander who is not afraid to get stuck in, win or loose. So give me a break and let me play the new codex a while before branding me a "jerk" for enjoying my Spacewolves.:p

Kanaellars
09-14-2009, 01:23 PM
I've played a SpaceWolf army since the dim dark Rogue Trader days when chosing a chapter was strictly a paint color decision. Paint and Fluff was all I had. I've been through all the editions, codex changes, fluff re-writes, sane, insane and everything in between. I am and incurable collector and have built and played virtually every army available with the exception of Tau and Necrons. Yes my imperial guard has a full platoon of squats, played as vertically impaired guardsmen, and my current marine battle company project involves modifying and upgrading 110 of the "RT01" beakies. When all is said and done the Wolves have always been the army I go back to. I've seen the new codex and am happy they not only kept the flavor of the 3rd edition codex but jumped in the wayback machine for some of the flavor of the 2nd edition. This new codex feels right, almost like it was written for me. It is all about heroic charges against all odds and logic. The army revolves around having "boots on the ground". Heros have always been the stuff of sagas, but this is a codex for the commander who is not afraid to get stuck in, win or loose. So give me a break and let me play the new codex a while before branding me a "jerk" for enjoying my Spacewolves.:p

Hear hear!

Someone get this guy an ale!

Lord Anubis
09-14-2009, 03:25 PM
I haven't picked up the Codex yet, but I admit I'm looking forward to using the 13th Company army I put together during the Eye of Terror campaign.

And I fully expect they'll remain what they were. A tough, very elite, very small army that I'll have more fun than victories with. :)

bryce963
09-14-2009, 04:46 PM
So something I have been thinking about since I sat down and made a list.

A wolf guard army would be pretty cool. With some grey hunters for back up. LRs of various types, and drop pods to get around. Taking Grimnar seems to be the way to go about doing that, and while I like the model, and the one for Njal, which I intend to use as a runepriest. I really have my eye on a guy I made with wolf claws, termie armor and the hero saga(get more attacks from the last turn).

After doing some test rolling against orks, it looks like you get around 4 attacks, and keep building upon that by another one or two each turn. So you get to 10 real fast but slowly increase after that

The lower model count sounds good to me, although the terminators are expensive, as are land raiders. So it's a trade off.

Bikeninja
09-14-2009, 06:37 PM
I've played a SpaceWolf army since the dim dark Rogue Trader days when chosing a chapter was strictly a paint color decision. Paint and Fluff was all I had. I've been through all the editions, codex changes, fluff re-writes, sane, insane and everything in between. I am and incurable collector and have built and played virtually every army available with the exception of Tau and Necrons. Yes my imperial guard has a full platoon of squats, played as vertically impaired guardsmen, and my current marine battle company project involves modifying and upgrading 110 of the "RT01" beakies. When all is said and done the Wolves have always been the army I go back to. I've seen the new codex and am happy they not only kept the flavor of the 3rd edition codex but jumped in the wayback machine for some of the flavor of the 2nd edition. This new codex feels right, almost like it was written for me. It is all about heroic charges against all odds and logic. The army revolves around having "boots on the ground". Heros have always been the stuff of sagas, but this is a codex for the commander who is not afraid to get stuck in, win or loose. So give me a break and let me play the new codex a while before branding me a "jerk" for enjoying my Spacewolves.:p


I am in that boat too brother and were able to buy you a beer I would. Play test the darn things people. Try them out. Everyone I have talked too has said that in actual game play unless that stars and the planets are in alignment or your opponent is a super noob the stuff does not work all that often. Interpretation of the rules is going to be a problem. My goodness you may have to talk about it before the game and come to a consensus on how something is going to work. I know that sounds a little like an adult thing but I am just sayin. This ain't rocket science.

Everybody take a deep breath and count to ten. If you can't count to ten then count to five twice.

See ya on the battlefield. Me howling, you cryin.

bigmackdadd
09-14-2009, 09:46 PM
I haven't picked up the Codex yet, but I admit I'm looking forward to using the 13th Company army I put together during the Eye of Terror campaign.

And I fully expect they'll remain what they were. A tough, very elite, very small army that I'll have more fun than victories with. :)

the 13th company is no part of the codex(rules wise), but they do have some things similar to the eye of terror, and they will be a fun army, but you can make a ridiculous list, inparticularly if you do it properly with a wolf army, the nob bikers will be rolled, you will be able to reroll to hit and to wound

The West Coast Knight
09-16-2009, 10:54 AM
the 13th company is no part of the codex(rules wise), but they do have some things similar to the eye of terror, and they will be a fun army, but you can make a ridiculous list, inparticularly if you do it properly with a wolf army, the nob bikers will be rolled, you will be able to reroll to hit and to wound


Your right about the 13th company list not in the book however it is easy to make a version of it with lots of models being able to take Mark of the Wulfen including Wolf Gaurd, Grey Hunters and the Lone Wolf.
Plus being able to have Fenriesen wolves as a fast attck choice.
Add in some Swiftclaws on bikes and some Wolf preists and Rune preists and there is all the flavour you had before in the 13th company list.
The only real thing missing is units of Wulfen but I like the idea of just a couple per squad having turned or the Lone Wulf wulfen that are to crazy to fight with their units any more and just run around looking for someone to snack on.

Lord Anubis
09-16-2009, 12:17 PM
The only real thing missing is units of Wulfen but I like the idea of just a couple per squad having turned or the Lone Wulf wulfen that are to crazy to fight with their units any more and just run around looking for someone to snack on.

Pretty much my thoughts exactly. :)

Kanaellars
09-17-2009, 11:51 AM
Just a bit of fun... someone in my local challenged me to this, so I am challenging you all....



The challenge:

build a 2000 pt, LEGAL Space Wolf Army.

Use only 12 models.

It is possible!!! try it.

Grimgore
09-17-2009, 02:45 PM
That said though, if you used the... forget the name, the 13th company still in armor, not wulfen... then yea, you can do that still

Grey Slayers (Grey Hunters) and Storm Claws (could take bikes and act as retinue)... my Wulfen Lord and
army of Wulfen are very sad... and packed away.

Grim

Fowlplaychiken
09-17-2009, 03:11 PM
Kaen: yea if you use the 4 most expensive special charactwr and 2 squads of totally tooled up wolf guard as troops, it can be done:-d

Kanaellars
09-20-2009, 06:47 AM
Kaen: yea if you use the 4 most expensive special charactwr and 2 squads of totally tooled up wolf guard as troops, it can be done:-d

Be more specific.

I know that it can be done, but it isnt quite that easy.

2 squads of what? Equipped how?

StrikerFox
09-20-2009, 04:45 PM
The idea that this army will be balanced by the need for expensive LR transports is stupid, since from what I have seen they can put terminators into drop pods AND have the drop pod assault rule. Do you know how many frigging drop pods you can fit in the 250 points that WOULD have been spent on a land raider?

When my army is supposed to have the same type of troop unit that is worse, has worse/contrary options, and costs more with less rules, then yes. I am not complaining that the Wolves' units are good, I just don't understand why they feel the need to be focused all of a sudden. Where is the crap, the awkward stuff that is in the SM codex that we all wonder what the hell they were thinking? The Wolves dex has NONE of that: everything in it is awesome/useful/cheap.

I think people misunderstand. I don't think it's unbeatable -- no codex is unbeatable. But this is going to be one of those armies, you know the ones...either it barely scrapes a win despite total tactical ineptitude or it utterly smashes everyone in its path and tables a different guy at your club week in and week out till eventually you have to go back to your old army just to even get a game in. I'll beat it, and before long I'll beat it consistently. But come on -- you can't tell me you are looking forward to the invariable endless Wolf vs. Wolf or Wolf vs. Guard games, or the club roster showing 4 guard armies and 5 space wolves armies, etc.

It's bad for the game to make armies so retardedly good that everyone wants to use them and not the others. Who in their right mind would use the Space Marine or Blood Angels dex to do an assault-heavy chapter now? Who would ever use the Chaos Codex, for that matter, when these guys are running around like Abaddon on steroids giving huge bonuses to the whole army full of "Chaos+1" type units?

My complaint isn't that Wolves are too good, I just want to know why the design philosophy was so wildly different when Ward shat out the garbage pile of vomit that is the current SM codex. It is full of counter-productive options -- why!? This is baffling enough but you figure "Oh it's for balance." Then along come things like the Guard codex and this new Wolves book..."Have everything be awesome! No limits! No stupid counterproductive rules you will almost never use! No making you pay more points for guys because they have a power that lets them INTENTIONALLY LOSE."

It's just gonna be a whole book of Vulkan lists, games where inconsistent favoritism lead to overjoyed wolves players and underwhelmed, angry, slighted opponents -- people who lose game's because of a guy's special power and not because the other player had superior generalship. This is what makes fighting stuff like "The Vulkan List" annoying and unsatisfying, as opposed to say fighting an Ork or Guard list where the odds are overwhelming but at least you are fighting normal guys with their own basic game mechanic pluses and minuses.

I just foresee every game against the wolves being very frustrating for opposing players. And especially moreso for we bog-standard SMs, as we struggle to get our guys to do one useful thing consistently while the Space Wolves will be out-assaulting the Blood Angels, out-Terminatoring the Dark Angels, out-specialcharactering the standard SM and out-specialruling the Black Templars.

I foresee them becoming a common and really hated army that people start not even wanting to face anymore (like Salamanders were).

Hey Emp. Didnt wanna get into this too much (tired as hell), but just wanted to say that, i see your point, but being a SW player for years, it got to a point when i was playing that i just could not keep up with other SM equivilants when they got upgrades to their codex and when the new rules came out.. only ONCE was i able to beat a DA army when they first came out with their dex. BA were still able to beat me in assault, and i NEVEr was able to beat a BT army (atleast because the guy that has them makes asskicking lists).

In any case, i still think that the vanilla marines, BT, and BA are still strong armies to reckon with, even with this new dex, which imo is a breath of fresh air for the wolves.

i know that the units are going to be balanced, a few, maybe not so much so as others.. but you gotta think too that with all the abilities that are being offered, its going to cost the SW player in points. (something im pretty much used to at this point). i really dont see how things are going to be "overpowered" as when the SW dex came out, people HATED the fact that the wolves, had things in that they could take in wargear, that the other Meq armies couldnt (save chaos 3.5). Even the fact that there was a unit which could take 3 powerfists in them at 11 models. but the downside is a BS/WS 3 unit. I remember how a guy i played was demanding how i took a terminator with a assault cannon and thunder hammer when he couldnt.

So putting things in perspective, i really think that they are just bringing the SW in line with everything else, but still kept things a little more expensive. (stuff SW players are used to anyway).

Oh and i dont know what you mean by such a ****ty SM dex... honestly... HONESTLY... i personally think its one of the best dex's out there now. Once they nerfed the CSM, this dex gives you units, abilities, and equipment options that you used to only see in armies of Chaos. To me it seemed they flipflopped the two to make SM on top. of course you wouldnt use them for an assault heavy army, because they were never purely assault heavy. ive always seen the wolves as being the best at what they do, and thats assault.

Levitas
09-20-2009, 05:35 PM
At first I was pretty excited about the wolves, and still plan on doing a list because I really like the fluff. But the truth is that everyone at my store is also doing the same. 80% of them simply for the rules. 10% annoyed Chaos players who want a better deal. I swear I will see a tau or eldar player trying to use it too. Its very furry around these parts now.

But you cant blame people. Tournaments and ard boyz have rammed up the need to have a strong list. So the bandwagon is overloading. I really hope that the next dex comes quickly and is overpowering, so people will jump on that and leave true wolves fans to drink ale and have a decent scrap. i also really hate the 'counts as' rule right now.

I do think the vanilla marine codex is still great. I used them in a tournament on the weekend and actually realized i would miss sternguard. Their swiss-army ammo is useful when your not sure what your facing. Plus Lysander will still bat most of the overpriced Space Wolf HQs out the park (as a few dont have eternal warrior for starters)

I do worry what on earth they will do with Blood Angels. It will be messy i'm sure. Then players will start repainting that grey to red.

StrikerFox
09-21-2009, 01:02 PM
[QUOTE=Levitas;20917 I really hope that the next dex comes quickly and is overpowering, so people will jump on that and leave true wolves fans to drink ale and have a decent scrap. i also really hate the 'counts as' rule right now..[/QUOTE]

AYE! *hands you a pint*

Grimnar42
09-22-2009, 06:32 PM
Why oh why do people persit in ****canning every new dex before even a game is played give it a few months for the dust to settle before sitting in judgement.

Havik110
09-24-2009, 02:28 PM
The new codex may look scary, and it is good. But like most of the new dexes will have its weak points. But there arnt many straight off the bat.

I'll be playing wolves, but with any army its good to know your own weak points.

Yes Njal is great. But make him roll dice and he'll eventually fall with the best of them. He will cause many problems though, and will no doubt be forecasting the weather in many tournaments.

Many of the special HQs dont have eternal warrior, so a hidden fist will ruin their day. They are also incredibly expensive, meaning that going over board will easily leave them outnumbered.

The assault nature of the army will also require crusaders to be truly affective. Thats another whack of points on top. Wolves also dont have access to sternguard, attack bike squadrons, ironclads and a bunch of other good stuff from the marine dex.

The strong builds will hold high numbers of greyhunters, and these will be the ones that are hard to beat.

It is a good codex, and I for one will relish using it. But its not invincible. The same talk will no doubt gather around nids and blood angels next year. People will be gawping at furious fleeting death company or nid beasts that kill everything on the table by turn 2 on a 2+. Just the way it is!
just think how scary DE are gonna be in a few decades when they get their dex...